Moving slowly because I prefer it.... bad idea?

[raiden]

I'm going on dates with a woman and I really have fun with her. We can hang out doing stuff that I wouldn't do with friends like tourist style activities. I've been rejected a lot so it's really good to be around a woman who I find hot and who actually likes spending time with me. But I've been single my whole life so I've found plenty of ways to cope with not having sex and right now I think that I can go on without it. If I keep going on dates with this woman and try to delay the intimacy until much later (think 2 + months or 10+ dates) will I screw up? The times that I've had sex in the past have been stressful and time consuming and overall felt like they weren't worth it because I wasn't really into the woman but still had to deal with all the fallout. Plus, a failed escalation will stop me from getting any more dates. Is my thinking irrational or is it sensible?

 

[topcat]

hmm..

would you be happy to “date” this woman indefinitely, even if sex were never to happen (not just after ten dates, but never)?

would you continue to date this woman even if you knew she was fucking another man to get her sexual release? nothing serious, just fun with him, but she continues to spend quality time with you?

can she date other men while dating you? or must she exclusively date you despite you not fucking her?

 

[POB]

What do you want:
1) to have real fun, to fuck a real woman and maybe develop a real relationship with her down the road?
2) to create a fantasy (that only exists in your head, and will never materialize in the real world) of a perfect chick that will make perfect love to you just because you think you are being the ultimate gentleman?

As topcat said, making her wait will only push her to fuck another dude.

 

[Zoro]

I've been rejected a lot so it's really good to be around a woman who I find hot and who actually likes spending time with me.

Are you in a position where you can dedicate yourself to seriously learn game? Because if you are, you should know that fucking up along the way is part of the process.

What is holding you back from striving to have more options? And just go for what you REALLY want, which is to also have great sex with this hot girl you like so much?

If it's because you've tried and failed before with other women? Well you are in the right place to get feedback and address your sticking points.

Take a step back and look at the situation.

It's not a problem if you're willing to cope for the rest of your life. It is a problem if you want more than that (which you do).

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

I'm going on dates with a woman and I really have fun with her. We can hang out doing stuff that I wouldn't do with friends like tourist style activities. I've been rejected a lot so it's really good to be around a woman who I find hot and who actually likes spending time with me. But I've been single my whole life so I've found plenty of ways to cope with not having sex and right now I think that I can go on without it.

What's your goal?

 

[reeax]

Well as other people have said, you can be her gay friend and some other dude will bang your dream girl sooner or later (and she will probably forget about you then). Or you can make your move - check if she is interested or not - and maybe get a girlfriend for real. PS you are not on 'dates' if you are not having sex with her (maybe 1 or 2 times that can count as a date).

Maybe picture her fucking some other guy (because you did nothing) and it will be your motivation to prevent that scenario from happening.

 

[raiden]

Are you in a position where you can dedicate yourself to seriously learn game? Because if you are, you should know that fucking up along the way is part of the process.

What is holding you back from striving to have more options? And just go for what you REALLY want, which is to also have great sex with this hot girl you like so much?

If it's because you've tried and failed before with other women? Well you are in the right place to get feedback and address your sticking points.

Take a step back and look at the situation.

It's not a problem if you're willing to cope for the rest of your life. It is a problem if you want more than that (which you do).

I've had a LOT of bad results. I've been incel over 3 years. I must have had a string of around 40 first dates from dating apps within that period. I really thjnk that I'm done with game and am in a 'take what you can get with women but get your enjoyment from other parts of your life' phase.

What is holding me back is my poor fundamentals or whatever caused my poor results in the past and lack of time and desire to put in effort. I went on 6 dates in 6 weeks and that stuff was exhausting. That itself isn't even enough.

Here is what is holding me back.
1. Bad experiences having sex in the past. With one woman, I just went for it because she was available, but I didn't like her so much. With her, I always thought "this would be better with somebody for whom I had strong feelings". Anyway, she found another guy she preferred and left town soon afterwards anyway. I ended up getting full STI testing afterwards. With another woman, I wasn't attracted to her but went for it. I was paranoid about the way that I had touched the condom so I bought her the pill and she went on for one week. She got very attached to me and I didn't enjoy the sex with her nor want anything serious with her so I had to let her down and leave her a little heartbroken. Even now, I could probably call her and get her on a date but I just don't feel attracted to her and I associate the sex with her with anxiety and disappointment.

2. Bad experiences escalating in the past. I've been kicked out before for a botched escalations. Most recently, I got back to isolation but she felt uncomfortable and wanted to leave so I ended up escorting her to the correct public transit hub. Then, later on, I asked her for more dates (I figured that it was ok to ask because I didn't do anything wrong, on the surface of it) but got a no. So I know that going for an escalation is a high stakes game where if you lose, you don't get any more dates.

3. I think that I'm veering towards being a pro life person. So, I'd feel anxious to have sex with a woman who's not wife quality because if there's an unplanned pregnancy, I'd figure that I'd have to stay with her and all, and be a family.

4. I've finally just this year learned to cope a little better living without sex and not being completely miserable.

 

[topcat]

I've had a LOT of bad results. I've been incel over 3 years. I must have had a string of around 40 first dates from dating apps within that period. I really thjnk that I'm done with game and am in a 'take what you can get with women but get your enjoyment from other parts of your life' phase.

What is holding me back is my poor fundamentals or whatever caused my poor results in the past and lack of time and desire to put in effort. I went on 6 dates in 6 weeks and that stuff was exhausting. That itself isn't even enough.

Here is what is holding me back.
1. Bad experiences having sex in the past. With one woman, I just went for it because she was available, but I didn't like her so much. With her, I always thought "this would be better with somebody for whom I had strong feelings". Anyway, she found another guy she preferred and left town soon afterwards anyway. I ended up getting full STI testing afterwards. With another woman, I wasn't attracted to her but went for it. I was paranoid about the way that I had touched the condom so I bought her the pill and she went on for one week. She got very attached to me and I didn't enjoy the sex with her nor want anything serious with her so I had to let her down and leave her a little heartbroken. Even now, I could probably call her and get her on a date but I just don't feel attracted to her and I associate the sex with her with anxiety and disappointment.

2. Bad experiences escalating in the past. I've been kicked out before for a botched escalations. Most recently, I got back to isolation but she felt uncomfortable and wanted to leave so I ended up escorting her to the correct public transit hub. Then, later on, I asked her for more dates (I figured that it was ok to ask because I didn't do anything wrong, on the surface of it) but got a no. So I know that going for an escalation is a high stakes game where if you lose, you don't get any more dates.

3. I think that I'm veering towards being a pro life person. So, I'd feel anxious to have sex with a woman who's not wife quality because if there's an unplanned pregnancy, I'd figure that I'd have to stay with her and all, and be a family.

4. I've finally just this year learned to cope a little better living without sex and not being completely miserable.

my god dude. You’re worried about the wrong shit. those botched escalations in the grand scheme of things are nothing burgers with enough experience. it’s par for the course when learning these things.

you’re just scared, lazy, lonely and coping. that’s fine, but let’s admit it first.

worried about “pro life”, you’re not even fucking girls. let’s run a rotation first before we get concerned about pregnancy shall we?

it’s obvious you want sex, or why try in the first place? why “date” girls in the first place?

you just don’t know how, and are at a loss for what to do. that’s fine too. let’s admit it.

a few botched escalations, a couple low quality girls and now it’s time to live a life of celibacy. stop it. you’re just being a pussy.

yes fix your fundamentals.

yes go out there and try fucking some girls and get rejected or have the chicks ghost you. whatever.

I’ve had that shit happen to me so many times in my early days, i can’t count. guess what? they weren’t a big deal and are easily drowned out by the memories of the sound of girls choking on my knob. sounds good?

go read some articles, take notes. put it into practise and ask questions when you fail.

you’re going on dates, that’s a good start. keep doing it.

put in the reps, or shut up.

 

[POB]

1. Bad experiences having sex in the past.

Although rare now, I still have them to this day....trial and error always gonna be a part of the process.
Just ask any guy here.

With one woman, I just went for it because she was available, but I didn't like her so much. With her, I always thought "this would be better with somebody for whom I had strong feelings".

This has nothing to do with feelings.
You just wasn't attracted to her.

2. Bad experiences escalating in the past. I've been kicked out before for a botched escalations.

This is kinda normal and part of the learning process.

Most recently, I got back to isolation but she felt uncomfortable and wanted to leave so I ended up escorting her to the correct public transit hub. Then, later on, I asked her for more dates (I figured that it was ok to ask because I didn't do anything wrong, on the surface of it) but got a no. So I know that going for an escalation is a high stakes game where if you lose, you don't get any more dates.

Wtf? Who said that?
Escalation is mandatory if you want to get laid.
You must do it regardless of the rejection risk.
If you need to, fuck-up 30-40 more escalations
The things you'll learn from those will help you for the rest of your life!

3. I think that I'm veering towards being a pro life person. So, I'd feel anxious to have sex with a woman who's not wife quality because if there's an unplanned pregnancy, I'd figure that I'd have to stay with her and all, and be a family.

And how does that make you feel?
Is it making you happy?

4. I've finally just this year learned to cope a little better living without sex and not being completely miserable.

Not the best solution I guess.

Man, the problem is you are currently impervious to advice because of your recent bad results, which are a very very small sample and mean nothing in the grand scheme of your life.

You are giving up too soon.

 

[Zoro]

You need a new mindset, new mental model.

What a lot of men get wrong is that “work” means it’s not worth it. Putting in the work is fulfilling, energizing, and rewarding. It’s what a man is meant to do, strive and build and fuck and fight and have some balls to face the challenges.

You’re not alone in your thinking. Many men these days feel like it’s not worth it and they tried and failed and it’s just not in the cards for them.

But that’s exactly the problem, that whole perspective.

Effort, challenge, responsibility, feel like a burden to a man who is not aware of his potential to love these things. It is very possible to be in love with the grind. It becomes enjoyable, you look forward to it.

Here’s how you start. You mentioned your fundamentals and motivation need work.

What can you do to address these?
Have you upgraded your fashion? Do eat and sleep well? Do you go to the gym? Do you moderate your screen/porn usage so your dopamine system isn’t fried and depletes your motivation?

 

[raiden]

You need a new mindset, new mental model.

What a lot of men get wrong is that “work” means it’s not worth it. Putting in the work is fulfilling, energizing, and rewarding. It’s what a man is meant to do, strive and build and fuck and fight and have some balls to face the challenges.

You’re not alone in your thinking. Many men these days feel like it’s not worth it and they tried and failed and it’s just not in the cards for them.

But that’s exactly the problem, that whole perspective.

Effort, challenge, responsibility, feel like a burden to a man who is not aware of his potential to love these things. It is very possible to be in love with the grind. It becomes enjoyable, you look forward to it.

Here’s how you start. You mentioned your fundamentals and motivation need work.

What can you do to address these?
Have you upgraded your fashion? Do eat and sleep well? Do you go to the gym? Do you moderate your screen/porn usage so your dopamine system isn’t fried and depletes your motivation?

My poor fundamentals are the God given ones. My clothing was vetted by my former coach and so was my physique and body shape. I'm in good health and I think that my recent labs showed that I have high or normal test levels for my age. I've had vocal coaching to help my speech and sound of my voice and the speech therapist was very pleased with my results. My hairstyle and beard style (clean shaven for me) should be optimized to my face too. But i have a diminutive height and I know that, no matter how classy or European I sound, my ethnicity hurts me. Even with shoe lifts, I think that my height hurts me.

Yes it is work and no I don't enjoy it. With fitness training, you can increase your effort and improve your results. Same with learning things. But that's not the case in the workplace or with women. These are totally unrewarding areas with asymmetric returns where I don't feel well motivated to put in more effort. Even on my first date with this girl, there were times when I was thinking that I'd prefer to be at home with a book. Hanging out with a hot girl was fun for me years ago but after like 60 bad dates, I'm a sick son of a gun.

 

[raiden]

Wtf? Who said that?
Escalation is mandatory if you want to get laid.
You must do it regardless of the rejection risk.
If you need to, fuck-up 30-40 more escalations
The things you'll learn from those will help you for the rest of your life!

Every botched escalation I've had, the woman dumped me. I think that there's an article on here about that entitled something like "we're not having sex tonight". I've also never even had a second date when I had an in public kiss on the first date with the woman, so I stopped trying that too.

So now I understand why I want to move slowly. In my mind, the escalation will be botched and I'll never see her after that. Since the dates I'm having now are benefiting me (it's good for my wellbeing to plan a date and have it received well by a girl I find hot) I want to get as many dates as I can before I escalate and get dumped. Alternatively, the escalation will succeed and I'll have those same bad after sex experiences that I had before. I guess that I'm like a woman with 'baggage'.

 

[reeax]

Learning PUA skills is basically permanently working on improving yourself in multiple dimensions, and it works pretty good with girls as most senior members will tell you (or just read Chase articles). Are there people that have it easier than you ? Of course. Is that a reason for you to quit ? No.

If you think that working on making a better version of yourself and testing new things with girls is a loss of time, what exactly is the kind of advice you are looking for on a seduction forum ?

Try to forget your bad past, focus on the possible future, and you will feel much better.

 

[Zoro]

But that's not the case in the workplace or with women.

Workplace? Sure, but there is a solution, like working for yourself or changing careers. More difficult than maintaining status quo and yet well worth it.

Same thing with women. It's not that you can't. It's that you have no yet cracked the code. Just because you put in work already doesn't mean you have solved the problem you're facing. It's going to hurt as long as it goes unsolved, so it's better to step up and find out how to crack it.

Look I get it, there is a lot of emotional weight that comes with continuous failure. But there are ways to deal with that too. Apply yourself to addressing that too. I use meditation, talking with close friends, and learning about how to live with strength. Recently been getting into stoicism for this reason. Also I'm doing breathwork and have found out my body is WAY too tense and my breathing has been hampered for years. I've been facing some heavy problems for years and I'm still determined as a dog to solve it. Sometimes it feels like I am banging my head against the wall, and yet eventually I break through it.

My poor fundamentals are the God given ones.

So you've already worked on your fundamentals. Your genes are out of your control, stop worrying about them.

You mentioned that you've been on a lot of dates. Women are interested and willing to go out with you. Along the way you are doing something that is fucking things up. That is where your focus should be.

 

[Zoro]

More ways to deal with frustration and bad experiences:

• TRE therapy
• consuming Andrew Huberman podcasts and applying the protocols he mentions
• journaling
• visualization (used by Olympic athletes and top performers)
• gratitude practice
• using the "framing effect" which is similar to stoicism principles

I have no illusions that what I am asking you to do is easy. But I am arguing that it is worth it and done in the right way is rewarding, leads to success, and can be enjoyable as a process. Whatever you are doing right now is not that. It's time to reexamine and strategize a new way of doing things, a way that is not coping, but that is playing to win.

 

[Skills]

Is not your fundamentals if you went to 40 dates from dating apps...

 

[KJ Francis]

I've had a LOT of bad results. I've been incel over 3 years. I must have had a string of around 40 first dates from dating apps within that period. I really thjnk that I'm done with game and am in a 'take what you can get with women but get your enjoyment from other parts of your life' phase.

What is holding me back is my poor fundamentals or whatever caused my poor results in the past and lack of time and desire to put in effort. I went on 6 dates in 6 weeks and that stuff was exhausting. That itself isn't even enough.

Here is what is holding me back.
1. Bad experiences having sex in the past. With one woman, I just went for it because she was available, but I didn't like her so much. With her, I always thought "this would be better with somebody for whom I had strong feelings". Anyway, she found another guy she preferred and left town soon afterwards anyway. I ended up getting full STI testing afterwards. With another woman, I wasn't attracted to her but went for it. I was paranoid about the way that I had touched the condom so I bought her the pill and she went on for one week. She got very attached to me and I didn't enjoy the sex with her nor want anything serious with her so I had to let her down and leave her a little heartbroken. Even now, I could probably call her and get her on a date but I just don't feel attracted to her and I associate the sex with her with anxiety and disappointment.

2. Bad experiences escalating in the past. I've been kicked out before for a botched escalations. Most recently, I got back to isolation but she felt uncomfortable and wanted to leave so I ended up escorting her to the correct public transit hub. Then, later on, I asked her for more dates (I figured that it was ok to ask because I didn't do anything wrong, on the surface of it) but got a no. So I know that going for an escalation is a high stakes game where if you lose, you don't get any more dates.

3. I think that I'm veering towards being a pro life person. So, I'd feel anxious to have sex with a woman who's not wife quality because if there's an unplanned pregnancy, I'd figure that I'd have to stay with her and all, and be a family.

4. I've finally just this year learned to cope a little better living without sex and not being completely miserable.

Raiden my man that is happening to me too. Any escalation not resulting in sex usually means I'll never see her again. These are really great dates and even girls having a fun time making out and leaving smiling.

Being new with a more friendly than seductive vibe, girls can be very trusting. But I move fast. So I've been getting a lot of girls to my house who expected a coffee shop date. Now they have to logically confront in their mind that they'd be boarding the train towards sex if they said yes to a second date in public because I disqualify myself as a boyfriend more on purpose at this stage.

Six dates in six weeks is draining you? It takes a very large funnel to get enough experiences actually reaching escalation in a private spot. That is just a baseline to get exposure to the situation to even start having opportunities practicing getting good at it.

I can pull my calendar out for you and type a little list of failures. Don't give up, because the stage you can get to next is still tons of flakes but some really filthy text messages from girls start to poke through... It's a weird feeling having extreme success and failure at the same time and I expect it will take quite a while for this gradient to shift, because reaching this point took a long time.

So I do know what you mean in wanting to just hang around hot women. What you are lacking is abundance of female attention. Fuck yeah it feel good to flirt with coworkers I am never going to fuck. Your self esteem is low and enjoys validation of someone being happy with your general company.

It is ok to have female friends. I think Chase recommended it in an article about getting bottle blondes. You are becoming comfortable in their presence.

But I would keep this to like 10% of your time with women... Go have coffee and accept you're not going to escalate. Bask in the friend zone and practice all the micro things creating flirty vibes.

 

[Skills]

I'm going on dates with a woman and I really have fun with her. We can hang out doing stuff that I wouldn't do with friends like tourist style activities. I've been rejected a lot so it's really good to be around a woman who I find hot and who actually likes spending time with me. But I've been single my whole life so I've found plenty of ways to cope with not having sex and right now I think that I can go on without it. If I keep going on dates with this woman and try to delay the intimacy until much later (think 2 + months or 10+ dates) will I screw up? The times that I've had sex in the past have been stressful and time consuming and overall felt like they weren't worth it because I wasn't really into the woman but still had to deal with all the fallout. Plus, a failed escalation will stop me from getting any more dates. Is my thinking irrational or is it sensible?

this is just cope many guys rationalize this they are just scare of failing... The problem is the way the go about escalating one big type move vs gauging reactions...

 

[KJ Francis]

this is just cope many guys rationalize this they are just scare of failing... The problem is the way the go about escalating one big type move vs gauging reactions...

It is for sure rooted in fear. I used to be petrified and would sweat on every single date to the point of visible pit stains. This kills your comfort getting physically close with her too.

The solution for me was building a harem of older heavier women. Some I'll see every couple months, but having five women absolutely clawing for your cock helps a lot in handling rejection.

@raiden regarding your point about fucking women you weren't really into... It is going to take a lot of sexual practice hours with various women to become a good lover. You are going from incel to actively improving fundamentals and absorbing mindsets from GC articles and asking questions here and such... It is just a matter of time and effort for you accepting your feeling of high volume is really low volume.

 

[POB]

I've seen worst cases than OP (like real aspergers) putting aside their stubborness, practicing what experienced guys said, taking the steps, failing miserably, getting up, trying again and finally getting laid.

I've seen (with my own eyes) acquaintances that are fat, ugly and bald getting bathroom pools
(and later getting kicked out of the club because of it lol).

There are no excuses....you just have to follow a proven path and put in the work.
No need to reinvent the wheel