FR My first ever second date- Pissed off & Anxious

[Bboy100]

Date #1 So I met this girl off Tinder. The first date went okay. I didn't do anything too out of the ordinary. So most of it was basically deep diving+escalating via touch. By the end of the date, it was VERY sexual. We were literally stuffing our tongues down each other's throats in the middle of a bar on a Monday. I asked her to come home with me to "watch her favorite movie" she said she wasn't down because she had a roommate who is apparently self-harming, and she needed someone to watch her at all times. Regardless, I persisted four or five times, but she said no each time.

Eventually, she said "don't worry about it! We'll hangout again soon" [with a dopey smile and a doe eyed look on her face].

As some of you might know, up until now, I had never been on a second date with a girl I didn't sleep with (and I've been on a LOT of dates). So for all intents and purposes, I truly believed that regardless of how "well" this one was going, if I don't fuck her I thought she was gone forsure. So I straight up told her:

Her: Don't worry about it! We'll hangout again soon!"
Me: Haha, I doubt that [with a genuinely sad look on my face]
Her: Why not?
Me: Because historically, that's not how these dates have gone for me.
Her: I promise i'll see you again! Let's even schedule it. How about next Wednesday?
Me: Sure [I'm still not convinced, so I still had that look on my face]

Regardless, we left the bar, I made out with her one last time, and we split off. Ten minutes after I got home, she sent me this text:

Her: I had a lot of fun, thank you again. I can't wait to see you on Wednesday. I probably should have explained in person, I don't go anywhere private with guys on first dates because I've had way too many guys try to force me into things. It's not that I don't like you, I'm just cautious with new guys, especially stronger ones.
Me: Yeah, so did I! That's totally understandable. IF I didn't have kind of a weird history myself, I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of it. So I apologize for that. But yeah forsure, ill see you Wednesday!
Her: Oh no, what happened?
Me: it's too long to type out over text, I'll tell you on Wednesday?
Her: Okay [Smily emoji]

Date #2

The next Wednesday, I had some logistical texts with her. And already, I could tell the vibe was different just via text. Not only that, but she asked me to come over to hers instead of going to mine. In hindsight, I should have declined, but I figured its nbd, and she probably wants her roommate around just in case I "force her into something she doesn't want to do". Plus, like she said, she supposedly has to take care of the roommate.

So the whole day, I was feeling a little anxious/antsy because I've never had a second date, so I felt like she'd flake at the last minute. Especially given that the first one included heavy making out. Eventually, it came time to go to hers. I arrived at her place. It was her and her roommate. Her roommate didn't go anywhere. They were treating it like it was some sort of platonic hang out instead of a date which was frankly, supposed to end in sex.

I was a combination of awkward because I'm feeling anxious as hell, and also pissed the fuck off. For the first 10 minutes or so, there was a lot of tension and awkward silences. Eventually, my girl went outside to let her dog pee. I quickly said "yeah, I'll come with you!"

We go outside, we're alone now:
Me: [Troubled look on my face]
Her: What's wrong?
Me: Well tbh, I thought it was gonna be just the two of us. I kinda wish you had told me your roommate was going to hang around.
Her: Why is this a problem?
Me: It's not, but I just wish you had told me first! I thought this was going to be a date, not a hangout.
Her: Ok, I'm sorry about that, but why is it such a big deal?
Me: [I stop her] Ok tbh, to me it kinda looks like you don't want me there and that this is your way of telling me that you're not into me.
Her: No, that's not it at all! She was supposed to have a guy over too, it was supposed to be a double date!
Me: Oh...Ok. I'm so sorry about that! [I go on too apologize a cringeworthy number of times]

So we head back inside. For the next three hours, I sat there hanging out with her, her roommate, and this one other girl who came. The thing is, I was still feeling REALLY anxious. Mainly because her friends were there. I felt like it would be weird for me to game this girl/hit on her when she had friends around. This is weird because at parties, I have no problems blatantly hitting on girls in front of their friends whatsoever.

So anyways...for the next three hours or so, I sit around the apartment, feeling anxious as fuck and having really awkward conversation. Interestingly enough, the girl still seemed at least somewhat interested in talking to me. Like, she would go out of her way to tell me stories, entertain me, qualify herself to me etc.
But it still felt like a platonic/just friends vibe. NOTHING like the sexual tension from the previous date. I also tried to put my arm around her a few times, and she didn't seem as into it as before. The thing is, i'm not sure if this platonic vibe is because her friend and roommate are around, or if its because attraction expired.

Eventually, I decide to leave. Knowing that I was super awkward, I decide that I might as well own up to it. So I send her this text:
Me: Hey, I had a good time today. Sorry for being super awkward. Sometimes, I can get a little uncomfortable with groups of people I don't know haha.
Anyways, have a good rest of your night!
Her: No worries, good luck with your final! [My reason for leaving was cause I had to do a take-home final]

Takeaway: I felt SOOOO different today. In a bad way. Like, I was super anxious, I behaved super beta/kissass (something I literally don't remember the last time I did), I felt really panicky inside. Like...you would not even recognize the guy from the first date to be the guy from the second date.

Thoughts on all this?

 

[Skid]

Hey man ,

I can totally relate to you here. With all this "beta" behaviour - its really good that you tried asking her home like 4 or 5 times I usually give up after once or twice but I tend to auto reject way to quickly.

Its just this internal battle we have were we are trying to balance being dominant vs our morals and how society tells us we should behave. With this whole red pill thing in the a lot of the seduction community we are always paranoid that the girl is evil and trying to manipulate us blah blah blah. I think what it comes down too is this : you aren't dominant (or have enough experience) enough to make her bend to your frame (which is having sex on the first date). Chase wrote an article on (https://www.girlschase.com/content/when- ... him-or-her) how fast should you sleep with him/her in response to some female readers that claimed chase would never sleep with him because be just ditches them after date numero uno. These women said that they always make guys wait because they want to keep them around the longer it takes for sex to happen the more power the girl has and the shorter the more power the guy has. The important thing you have to understand here I think is that she likes you she just wants you to bend to her frame so that she feels more secure. Now whether or not you're willing to be happy with that is totally up to you - you've just bent to her frame and she has probably put you into the boyfriend role and here is why :

Her: Don't worry about it! We'll hangout again soon!"
Me: Haha, I doubt that [with a genuinely sad look on my face]
Her: Why not?
Me: Because historically, that's not how these dates have gone for me.
Her: I promise i'll see you again! Let's even schedule it. How about next Wednesday?
Me: Sure [I'm still not convinced, so I still had that look on my face]

She likes you but you aren't dominant enough to be a lover otherwise you would have blown past the resistance she gave you before. Personally I've avoided having conversations like this with girls like the plague (but I definitely wonder if I should try it) and what always follows if I'm in a position that you just found yourself in is both me and the girl refuse to bend to each others frame and we just push each other away and never get together. Which I suspect is what happens with these occasions where there is only 1 date. At the end of the day like chase said in his article someone has to break.

Recently I met up with a girl who I thought was really attractive we went for a late night coffee it I moved her away from the coffee shop and as we started to walk further away she started to put up token resistance like "where are we going?" , "I'm not sure how far that is" (I was asking her if there was somewhere quiet we could go and she said nope) which was really weird to me because this girl was obviously attracted to me she played her hair a ridiculous amount and had big doe eyes like you described so I just ignored what she was saying and focused on her body language and said we are going for a walk because its really hard to hear each other (always give a logical reason for transitions) we get somewhere quiet and I sit on a retaining wall she stands I say "Are you gonna sit or stand there awkwardly ?" She sits further away than I would have liked but whatever I keep talking to her then shift my way closer to her "you just got really close" me: "do you have a problem with that?" her:"I'm gonna say no" then later I go to kiss her and he won't turn her head towards me and I hesitate. Then all of a sudden the blurts out "I HAVE A BOYFRIEND" , blushes and gets really flustered lol. Ah, I think to myself that's why she's acting like this. And from there I don't really want to proceed because I have morals towards going after girls with boyfriends. But morals aside I'm pretty damn sure if I didn't hesitate when she didn't turn her head towards me and I transitioned into a manhandle kiss it would have worked (I haven't really done manhandle kisses before). Again its all about how strong your frame is and you making her bend to it I think the reason this went well for me up to the point of the kiss was I was totally indifferent when she said we shouldn't cross at the road and move away from the public eye I smiled at her and said "what are you afraid of?" and started walking without looking back - she followed. But as soon as I found out she had a bf and I didn't take it in my stride the whole seduction fell apart.

Now what I'm not sure about is which method is better at becoming better with girls. Is it better to just bend to a couple a girls frames when you are learning ; sleep with them on their terms and then once you have some experience under your belt stop bending to girls frames? Or is it better to never bend to a girls frame no matter how attractive you think she is and how much you want to have sex with her I guess it depends on your goal. If you want a girl to bend to your frame then you have to commit persist and push never give up until she does. The reason chase advocates the lover method is because you are in control and have the power now I have no idea if it is actually terrible to be in a boyfriend position where the girl has power and whether or not she abuses it I guess it depends on the girl - because the hardcore red pill dudes make it sound AWFUL even on GC its implied that you are less of a man if you bend to a girls frame. My advice would be try it and if you don't like the results are you getting from it then stop bending to girls frames.

Skid

 

[Bboy100]

She likes you but you aren't dominant enough to be a lover otherwise you would have blown past the resistance she gave you before.

Normally, I would agree with you. But with this specific girl, I think this is false. Simply put, she's damaged. She's had some experiences with an abusive ex boyfriend and with guys trying to rape her. So now, she doesn't trust guys enough to go back to their place until she knows them very very well. Its a safety issue, not a dominance nor frame issue. Had this not been the case, I'm 100% sure I would have slept with her that night.

As for the rest of it...I'm perfectly fine with going the boyfriend route for a girl I like. I'm not at all convinced that how fast you slept with her is relevant to the relationship after. If you fucked her, you fucked her.

 

[Mr.Rob]

@Skid

With this whole red pill thing in the a lot of the seduction community we are always paranoid that the girl is evil and trying to manipulate us blah blah blah. I think what it comes down too is this : you aren't dominant (or have enough experience) enough to make her bend to your frame (which is having sex on the first date).

What the fuck kind of toxic nonsense are you brainwashing yourself with man? You are paranoid women are evil and trying to manipulate you?

Dude stop reading red pill garbage. There are people out there that don't subscribe to group think, know and understand the social narratives that aren't real, and they are still cool people with a healthy view on things. Red pill dudes are like these weird outcasts that have logically learned the same information and then think everyone is out to get them and take on this "us vs. them" mentality that is entirely unhealthy. Maybe that's not you but you sound dangerously close to fitting that mold.

I do agree with you Skid on your synopsis of Bboy's conversation and I partially agree with your ideas on "bending to her frame". I think a better way to think about it rather than a power struggle is that instead you're just leading. There's no "forcing her to bend to your rule" that's what dictators do. Instead your presenting her a way of living for a point in time that is probably better than what she would do otherwise and you just know its the best plan and speak about it in such a manner. If you have a girl attracted to you and she's putting up resistance it is not her trying to assert her power over you in some power struggle. Instead when a girl puts up resistance she's doing it because that's just part of the game, she's collaborating with you. She is playing the part of not being easy and its your job not to compete with her and take the power back but lead strongly and empower her to make the decision to subscribe to your leadership. If your plan is truly a better way than her plan you won't have to battle for power, assert your will, or even convince her. If you communicate your value proposition effectively she'll just decide to come along.

Now what is interesting is that what were both describing is essentially the same thing except that you are coming from a "me vs. the girl" frame which I think is extremely ineffective and unhealthy but if you want to battle girls and be "paranoid of the evil woman" then I guess keep doing what you're doing.

I instead frame things as collaboration. We're both creating an epic experience together and we're both playing our respective part in the seduction dance. I lead, she paces, I lead, and if my plan is truly valuable and I communicate that effectively she will subscribe to my leadership and we'll both go create that epic experience together.

I will still have little "frame battles" and negative drama at times but it's still collaborative. We both know its a joke that were engaging in to make things more exciting like were acting together or something. But deep down we are on the same team and collaborating to make an epic memorable experience once or longer.

I just enjoy women, I understand better their actions, and I never live in paranoia of a woman trying to assert her power over me. Thats a weak frame to come from.

-Rob

 

[Mr.Rob]

@Bboy This comment is feedback on your report. First off I commend you on putting your actual conversation in writing for everyone to read and being accurate and authentic. A lot of dudes don't have the swagger to put themselves out there and ask for feedback on it with the intention of getting better. You're on the track to excellence I do hope and believe.

With that said it is pretty cringe worthy in a few places so I will try to be objective and non-condemning in my synopsis here.

First off I think you're first mistake on the first date and the place you shot yourself in the foot is when you were making out with the girl hardcore at the bar. Anatman will disagree with me here but it just kills all the sexual tension if you do not know how to keep the emotions aroused and making her want more. Plus there is literally zero point in doing this. It doesn't achieve anything for you or bring you closer to your goal.

If you would've just kissed her once and pulled your head away and then led her out of the venue and to your house you likely would have had much less resistance and it would have been much easier to get her out of there. I do not think her "abused past" is the reason you couldn't get her out of there on the first date. I have taken home girls that have been abused and even raped before (by her dad... insane right?) and although they were often reluctant and needed a lot of comfort to proceed forward they never left or put up resistance because I was able to bring that high degree of comfort and empathy into the interaction while still maintaining a high degree of sexual tension which it sounds like you did not do.

Her: Don't worry about it! We'll hangout again soon!"
Me: Haha, I doubt that [with a genuinely sad look on my face]
Her: Why not?
Me: Because historically, that's not how these dates have gone for me.
Her: I promise i'll see you again! Let's even schedule it. How about next Wednesday?
Me: Sure [I'm still not convinced, so I still had that look on my face]

This one killed you and sealed the deal on not taking her home.

Here she is basically rejecting your advances, you get butthurt and sad about it, and then she's trying to make sure you don't feel sad or mad at her for rejecting you. She is the one with higher status and she is promising to bestow her presence upon you in a future time so you won't be sad. Attraction tanks, you go down in flames. This is a painful lesson to learn and I know I have certainly had to learn it earlier in my learning curve but you can never show you are butthurt about her resistance.

This also set the frame for the future to have a strictly platonic vibe since you're communicating to her that she's the one who leads the interaction, she's the one with the status, and she's the one that is in high demand (because you care so much about having her in your company... when she seems to be rather indifferent). Again if you wouldn't have gone hardcore makeout but just kissed and led her out of the venue you probably would've had an easier time demanding to stay in your company.

Her: I had a lot of fun, thank you again. I can't wait to see you on Wednesday. I probably should have explained in person, I don't go anywhere private with guys on first dates because I've had way too many guys try to force me into things. It's not that I don't like you, I'm just cautious with new guys, especially stronger ones.

Here she is just further trying to mitigate the bad emotions you're feeling by explaining to you why she rejected you and assigning the blame elsewhere.

Your response:

Me: Yeah, so did I! That's totally understandable. IF I didn't have kind of a weird history myself, I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of it. So I apologize for that. But yeah forsure, ill see you Wednesday!
Her: Oh no, what happened?
Me: it's too long to type out over text, I'll tell you on Wednesday?
Her: Okay [Smily emoji]

Don't explain yourself without being prompted ever. Also don't explain yourself to a woman ever. And then you apologize for making it a big deal which shows you're making it into an even bigger deal.

All that is needed is a simple "cool had fun too I will let you know later in the week if Wednesday will work" Which communicates she's the one making it into a big deal and you're just blaize about things (which you should be as this is the first time you've ever met this girl).

I'm not going to even break down the 2nd date because the pretext that you have outlined here explains why your 2nd date was a failure and why she invited you over for a platonic hang out with her roommate. She never had intentions to get intimate with you after date #1.

Just one note from the 2nd date

We go outside, we're alone now:
Me: [Troubled look on my face]
Her: What's wrong?
Me: Well tbh, I thought it was gonna be just the two of us. I kinda wish you had told me your roommate was going to hang around.
Her: Why is this a problem?
Me: It's not, but I just wish you had told me first! I thought this was going to be a date, not a hangout.
Her: Ok, I'm sorry about that, but why is it such a big deal?
Me: [I stop her] Ok tbh, to me it kinda looks like you don't want me there and that this is your way of telling me that you're not into me.
Her: No, that's not it at all! She was supposed to have a guy over too, it was supposed to be a double date!
Me: Oh...Ok. I'm so sorry about that! [I go on too apologize a cringeworthy number of times]

You should never engage in this style of communication of communicating your frustrations honestly to her. This communication communicates that you are sad about her decision, you think its a big deal, and serves no purpose in effectively moving you toward your goal.

You're never going to honestly tell a girl your frustrations for her actions (which you caused) and have her say "wow oh my gosh I didn't even realize it. Here let us go into my room so I can put this pussy on you so you're not sad anymore because I'm so turned on by how you're venting to me"

Just cut this style of communication out. It communicates everything you do not want to communicate to her.

I don't think your problem was the 2nd date here but I think your problem was a failure to frame the interaction properly in the first date starting with making out hardcore in the venue and then showing visibly that you are butthurt by her decision to not go home with you and making it a big deal. This set the tone for attraction to tank immediately and set up a platonic dynamic between the two of you.

I think you definitely have the makings to progress past this stage pretty fast but you're definitely going to have to make a few minor behavioral changes to get to the next level. The good news is that these are fairly easy behaviors to acquire and shouldn't take more than a couple months to get in place.

Good luck,

-Rob

 

[Bboy100]

Great analysis Mr. Rob! Thank you for that. To be honest, I don't usually behave the way I did in this FR which is why it was so interesting to me. Somehow, this girl got me to completely throw my inhibitions & restraint out the window, and everything I did was purely emotional. I honestly didn't think this could still happen to me. Guess I got some more work to do!

Here she is basically rejecting your advances, you get butthurt and sad about it, and then she's trying to make sure you don't feel sad or mad at her for rejecting you. She is the one with higher status and she is promising to bestow her presence upon you in a future time so you won't be sad. Attraction tanks, you go down in flames.

Yeah. I totally agree with this one. Here's the reason why I did it...I've been on 20+ first dates which ended in either heavy makeouts or in her saying "call me" or "I had a good time tonight! I hope to see you again". I've even had several dates now where we schedule to do something after the first date, then she backs out. Until this FR, I had never EVER had a second date with a girl I didn't hook up with on the first. So when I made that comment, I genuinely believed I already lost her. I believed it was game over. So I just told her how I really felt about it. Not in hopes that this will somehow change the outcome. Rather, I was just being genuine & honest.

All the subsequent sadness/butthurt comments were what I was talking about at the start. After the first date, I totally lost control over restraint+inhibition. This is not a common thing for me at all. I honestly can't remember the last time I behaved this way around a women. So I'm still trying to figure out what this girl did to push my buttons so hard.

I do not think her "abused past" is the reason you couldn't get her out of there on the first date. I have taken home girls that have been abused and even raped before (by her dad... insane right?) and although they were often reluctant and needed a lot of comfort to proceed forward

This is always an interesting situation. Because I feel like yeah...maybe there are some (a lot) of damaged girls who we really could take home on a first date. Like you said, all it would take is more comfort building. I know this from experiance. I once took home a girl who lost her virginity via being raped by her uncle!

Having said that,I feel like there are others for whom this is genuinely an issue. And regardless of how much comfort we build, they still won't be down. Under which category does this girl fit? I dunno...there's no real way to tell. haha

 

[Mr.Rob]

Great analysis Mr. Rob! Thank you for that. To be honest, I don't usually behave the way I did in this FR which is why it was so interesting to me. Somehow, this girl got me to completely throw my inhibitions & restraint out the window, and everything I did was purely emotional. I honestly didn't think this could still happen to me. Guess I got some more work to do!

You are welcome Bboy! Yeah I can definitely relate to those experiences of your acting like a total lamo, you know you shouldn't be, and for some reason beyond your conception you keep going further down the rabbit hole. Yeah it happens. I think the more we ingrain the behaviors that are desirable the more automatic they become and the less I think we'll experience these weird moments of weakness.

having said that,I feel like there are others for whom this is genuinely an issue. And regardless of how much comfort we build, they still won't be down. Under which category does this girl fit? I dunno...there's no real way to tell.

Probably a good synopsis. I sure do not specialize in damaged/raped women so and hopefully we can keep it that way huh?

I enjoyed the read man. I look forward to reading about your next 2nd date that you're going to kill.

I'll be keeping a lookout!

Keep it pimpin
-Rob

 

[Skid]

What the fuck kind of toxic nonsense are you brainwashing yourself with man? You are paranoid women are evil and trying to manipulate you?

Woah, calm down dude. Didn't want to elicit any hostility. I'm naturally a very competitive person as far as I know I haven't read any hardcore red-pill stuff the only stuff I read on seduction these days really is GC. Any hardcore victim mentality / harmful views of the world model have been linked to me here. I had never heard of MGTOW/other stuff like that forums until it was mentioned on one of chases articles. I've skimmed and agree its fucked up.

Now what is interesting is that what were both describing is essentially the same thing except that you are coming from a "me vs. the girl" frame which I think is extremely ineffective and unhealthy but if you want to battle girls and be "paranoid of the evil woman" then I guess keep doing what you're doing.

Like I said I'm a very competitive person and my belief system has been constructed from my experiences like everyone else whenever I have been successful at something its come from my competitive drive. I would not be here on this forum if I didn't like the belief system : it has a positive view of the world and I find that very attractive.I'm here to learn and become a better person like you and everyone else. The fact of the matter is my journey has been really painful I'm sure there are guys on here who have had a MUCH harder time than me but I don't have a ton of positive reference experience like yourself who's slept with x amount of girls or had x amount of girls wanting to see you again texting you etc(still shaping myself so to speak)and so naturally I can be influenced by other mental models - even negative ones. I'm doing my best to hang in there and not fall into a deep dark pit of despair/negativity.

I instead frame things as collaboration. We're both creating an epic experience together and we're both playing our respective part in the seduction dance. I lead, she paces, I lead, and if my plan is truly valuable and I communicate that effectively she will subscribe to my leadership and we'll both go create that epic experience together.

I will still have little "frame battles" and negative drama at times but it's still collaborative. We both know its a joke that were engaging in to make things more exciting like were acting together or something. But deep down we are on the same team and collaborating to make an epic memorable experience once or longer.

Ok , see I've viewed it as a competition 90% of the time like I've mentioned before which could easily be the issue here. The girls in my journey I have connected strongest with have been the ones I've felt like we are a team I see the value in that. But because of my inexperience/lack of ability it derails I never see her again and then I feel like I've "lost" the competition. Whenever I encounter a girl that isn't interested in me I've "lost" the competition.

I think this side of me came out when I tried to relate to the OP like he is saying here but clearly his doubts don't run as deep as mine:

Bboy100 wrote:
I don't usually behave the way I did in this FR which is why it was so interesting to me. Somehow, this girl got me to completely throw my inhibitions & restraint out the window, and everything I did was purely emotional. I honestly didn't think this could still happen to me. Guess I got some more work to do!

Like you said it was cringe worthy and bboy himself agrees and I do as well but I also see it as losing.


I can see that your view is healthier than mine it just doesn't come naturally to me to assume that when a girl is doing something the derails the seduction or puts it on wire -how is that a collaborative effort? I think I have an issue with comparing girls that are GENUINELY trying to derail the seduction because they aren't interested and girls that are trying to poke me and attract themselves to me. Sometimes I just can't make that distinction I don't know how to : if I use results to make that distinction then I'm going to be bitter and angry as I'm not that great with women. Because I'm never sure whether I screwed up or the girl was never ever in a million years going to be interested in me and there was nothing I could do to change that and I get frustrated thinking that all girls are working against me in order to protect my ego. There is just so much lack of clarity in this area that you don't know whether if you pushed just a tiny tiny bit harder you would have gotten somewhere with the girl.

The interaction I gave as an example above is a perfect example of when I come the conclusion that someone is trying to suck value from me which is where the red pill thoughts come from I believe. When I met her at the train station I've never seen a girl play with her hair so much when I said hi to her , her eyes got really big. When I opened her she hung up on the person she was talking to - that's pretty blindingly obvious signs of attraction. And then we go on a coffee date a couple days later I isolate her then she tells me she had a bf when I escalate- and tbh I was super fucking mad that this girl wasted my time but what was even worse was when I playfully ask why she came to see me she said she thought we were going to be friends. The fact that she had the nerve to say that. I tried to sympathize with her but holy shit there is no way you can mistake that interaction for an attempt at friendship and she KNEW what was going to happen because she was putting up the token resistance at transitions and that's why I see it as a competition a lot of the time. BUT I would like to change that.


If you have any advice or exercises something I can do to help with this belief it would help a lot. Either way thanks for pointing out my poisoness thought process - I just am not sure how to tackle it .

Sorry about hijacking your thread bboy! GO GET HER!

Skid

 

[Bboy100]

Skid, I'd check these out: https://www.girlschase.com/content/are-w ... ur-enemies
https://www.girlschase.com/content/do-yo ... or-seducer

Also, I too am a very naturally competitive person. But with a girl, the concept of "competition" doesn't make sense to me. If the seduction fails, you both lose. She has nothing to gain by trying to fuck you over. She hopes you'll lead the interaction to sex just as much if not more than you do. In fact, I believe that any time I'm in an interaction with a women, she's my biggest cheerleader. Cause she probably has more to gain from my being successful than anyone else.

Furthermore, there's nothing to compete over. Either the two of you can sync together in a way which leads to some type of sexual relationship, or you can't. There's really no competitive aspect in that. Its entirely cooperative. If anything, you're competing with other guys, not with the girl herself.

 

[Skid]

Thanks! I'll take a look.

 

[Seventh_Sky]

I feel like you got out-gamed by the girl. She was calling most of the shots it seems and addressing your objections quite well according to your post. For example, you went on a second date even though your instincts were telling you not to. Most telling about the post is that you recall feeling unsure about yourself on the second date while the girl seems to be completely comfortable about the situation, suggesting that she is in control. That's evidence of being out-gamed as well, I'm afraid.

I've been severely out-gamed before multiple times and it was not fun. It could happen to anyone, there are some very smart and sexy women out there.

 

[Mr.Rob]

@Skid- I appreciate your attitude and open mindedness, you sound like you are on the path to becoming your best self. The reason I was aggressive towards your response is that we keep the culture on the forums here firmly out of the red pill mentality. If we have guys giving advice from that mentality we want to nip it in the bud before it pollutes the forum.

Now that you've elaborated on your views I don't think you're actually a guy that fits that mold, though I do think you have progress to make in taking your paradigm to the next level.

Also Bboy's advice was good but I will build on what he said a bit.

The fact of the matter is my journey has been really painful I'm sure there are guys on here who have had a MUCH harder time than me but I don't have a ton of positive reference experience like yourself who's slept with x amount of girls or had x amount of girls wanting to see you again texting you etc(still shaping myself so to speak)and so naturally I can be influenced by other mental models - even negative ones. I'm doing my best to hang in there and not fall into a deep dark pit of despair/negativity.

My journey wouldn't be described as a leisurely walk in the park either man. But I always chose to take as much responsibility for my outcomes as possible and view things as positively as can be. Obviously if there are a lot of GC guys who all see women from a positive standpoint then surely there must be something to it. Make sure you're not taking in any other outside material/influences that may be shaping your view of women negatively as well if you have any.

Also regarding competition, I'm very competitive as well. As Bboy pointed out my competition is the dudes. My teammate is the girl. We are dance partners in the dance of seduction.

when a girl is doing something the derails the seduction or puts it on wire -how is that a collaborative effort?

When you're inexperienced it derails the seduction. When you become experienced its a golden opportunity to increase her attraction to you... or screen her out and find a better girl. Both are equally desired outcomes.

The interaction I gave as an example above is a perfect example of when I come the conclusion that someone is trying to suck value from me which is where the red pill thoughts come from I believe. When I met her at the train station I've never seen a girl play with her hair so much when I said hi to her , her eyes got really big. When I opened her she hung up on the person she was talking to - that's pretty blindingly obvious signs of attraction. And then we go on a coffee date a couple days later I isolate her then she tells me she had a bf when I escalate- and tbh I was super fucking mad that this girl wasted my time but what was even worse was when I playfully ask why she came to see me she said she thought we were going to be friends. The fact that she had the nerve to say that.

So this was your fault and you can only be mad at yourself. I did read your initial comment on that interaction and it sounds like she was genuinely attracted to you and you could have sealed the deal. You didn't because of moral reasons and that's cool. However if hooking up with girls w/boyfriends is something you are extremely against then you need to be screening for that upfront within the first 5-10 minutes of an interaction. If a girls willing to cheat on her boyfriend and you don't ask you can't be mad when she brings it up. She is not able to read your mind to know your moral standings.

Regarding the "friends" comment it is common among more inexperienced men to take women's words at face value. She had no intentions of being friends with you. She said this because what the fuck else can she say without you potentially judging her?
Now that she has told you she has a boyfriend, and she knows you're not down with sleeping with girls that have a boyfriend, if she tells you that she came out with you to hook up with you she runs a big risk of you seeing her as a slut and judging her accordingly. Girls do not want to be seen/judged as sluts.

Your major stumbling block with your view on women is that you do not understand how women communicate and how they operate. You will never have the success you want and be at peace with women until you understand female psychology, how women communicate, and then accept this fact and see the beauty in it.

It is inherent that you do this otherwise women will leave a bitter taste in your mouth.

BUT I would like to change that.

Right on! You're the type of guy that will change it and be successful at this shit!

David Dieda's book "The Way of the Superior Man" talks a bit on this subject and will help you better understand female psychology. I'm sure there are plenty other books as well, and perhaps make a forum post asking for helpful books on understanding female psychology. Plus a lot of Chase's articles speak a lot on the subject.

Also if you can put yourself around women and make friends with girls this will help you learn a lot. Pick their brains on the guys they are dating and observe how the interact and communicate with people. Ask them why they said xyz thing or did abc action to see how they think about things.

PM me if you ever have any specific interaction that you can't understand why they did something and I'll check it out and try to help you understand it better.

I look forward to reading your coming field reports.

Keep it pimpin gentlemen

-Rob

 

[Skid]

So this was your fault and you can only be mad at yourself. I did read your initial comment on that interaction and it sounds like she was genuinely attracted to you and you could have sealed the deal. You didn't because of moral reasons and that's cool. However if hooking up with girls w/boyfriends is something you are extremely against then you need to be screening for that upfront within the first 5-10 minutes of an interaction.

Ok I can understand that its my fault for not finding out she has a boyfriend if I am against getting together with girls that have boyfriends. And I understand she lied because she wanted to protect her reputation. Although I've always avoided specifically screening for girls boyfriends because it feels like then I'm auditioning for the boyfriend role which is not the case most of the time. Although I guess it doesn't matter if I act like I'm going to sleep with her.

If a girls willing to cheat on her boyfriend and you don't ask you can't be mad when she brings it up. She is not able to read your mind to know your moral standings.

I think the anger was a combination of the respect I lost for the girl when she said she had a boyfriend like this girl sounded very organised and impressive etc and this was what happened after a bunch of flakes in a row prior to this date. I believe in holding to your word : if you agree to a monogamous relationship then suck it up or break up. I guess I should be proud of myself for being more dominant than her bf.I assume that its sort of a basic ethical right and wrong (like don't steal from people , don't brutally murder someone with a chainsaw) when in reality some people don't give a fuck.

Your major stumbling block with your view on women is that you do not understand how women communicate and how they operate. You will never have the success you want and be at peace with women until you understand female psychology, how women communicate, and then accept this fact and see the beauty in it.

I do understand - I was just ticked off at this girl and directed emotions of frustration onto her for the wrong reasons.And now I more clearly understand why she never replied to me after I sent a text saying I didn't want to get involved with a girl with a boyfriend. OOOOPS now I made her feel terrible because I didn't buy her lie and now she knows that I didn't so I become someone who can damage her reputation so she cuts me off. Oh well, she's the one that decided to meet me.

PM me if you ever have any specific interaction that you can't understand why they did something and I'll check it out and try to help you understand it better.

Thanks man! Lots of wisdom here much appreciated.

Peace