Paradoxe : Between Deep Diving and Frame Control (att Chase)

[Witcher]

Hello Everyoe,

Hope you are gaming well!

Today, i need some insights and clarifications about two important concepts not only taught her in GC but in every educational resource about persuasion and social Skills. These two concepts are Frame Control/Argumentation and Deep Diving/Diplomacy. My big problem is that i see them as very contradictory even paradoxical. When both of them aim to the same goal which is to persuade the other person of our point of view their paradigm and application is not the same and what we do in one is completely unadvised in the other.

In Frame Control, we try to beat the other person argument or idea by using either better ones and actually winning the duel. Withdrawing or going back or agreeing in some part of it make is considered bad because it would make us loose face and look submissive.

In DeepDiving, it is advised to agree with the other person, not challenging them and going even compromise, and always keep the things in a good mood. The most famous book is How to Win Friends and Influence People. The very idea fo disagreeing or challenging is completely forbidden here.

Where in my experience with people, i can see that both of them work and none of them work depending on the person, situation, etc.. But when we rea any article about either one it's is presented as the WAy and ONLy way to do persuasion with people.

So i want to know if any Social Veteran here could give us a clarification about this. I don't remember how many times i got to the Diplomatic approach where i should debuked my visa a vis and when i debuked and clashed my interlocutor when i should have used a more diplomatci approache.

Thank you

 

[Witcher]

Will Up the thread once.

 

[Drck]

IMHO you are looking too deep into it...

I probably see it differently than other GC enthusiasts here, so here are my 2 cents:

I don't like the expression of Deep Diving. To me 'deep diving' as described is regular conversation that you have with a friend or person (Girl) you are interested in. Say both of you have some common interest, college education, hobby, whatever that might be... Think about conversations that you have with friends, it is just natural flow, you talk about what you want to talk, you feel comfortable talking about it....

So you simply talk about that subject, what interests you, what interests the other person, why do you like math vs history and such... You may talk about it, then switch to another subject, and then come back to it several minutes (or days) later. The topics are simply too wide, there is no such thing as talk about it for 5 minutes and it is done...

Is it truly "deep diving"? It really depends how you define it. From my point of view, if somebody starts truly 'deep diving' another person it is rather quite unpleasant experience for the other person. The 'deep diver' wants to know too much information too quickly. He beats the topic from left and right, and from top to below. It is too intensive conversation, if that makes sense, perhaps "Deep diving" is a good strategy for job interview, but not for dating...

In my experience, girls rather prefer "Light" conversation, nothing really deep. A good vibes are when she talks and talks, and you support her with occasional 'uhuh', 'huh', 'interesting', tell me more and so forth... The classical rule is that she should be talking some 70% of the time and you some 30%; I think that is a good ratio to aim for...

So in stead of 'deep diving' the other person, it might be better if you start talking yourself. For example, say some brief story about what happened in college. Most girls, especially those that like you, will grab that story and they will start telling you their stories. She will tell you six of stories vs yours one. So let her talk as much as she wants, add some comments here and there, then once the conversation runs out simply switch to another topic. Again, when needed, simply tell some of your story or experience, and she will reciprocate...

IMO it is better if you keep the stories light, rather funny, perhaps with some scent of mild teasing. Let her blush on occasions.

If a girl is not really interested in being intimate with you, your salesman strategies are useless. There is nothing to sell, she simply doesn't like your product. Look at it this way, if you go to a store and you don't really see anything that you like, plus you know that you can get better deal at another place, will the salesman convince you to buy something for $100? I'm guessing not, unless you don't care. Salesman strategies might work if the other person is hesitant to buy what you have to offer. If she is not really interested, she will flake, she will not allow you to advance. You cannot "beat her" with arguments to like you and to sleep with you, not unless she is really desperate, really angry at her BF, or she's simply a slut.

So simple way to look at it is to increase your value as a man. That way she will be naturally interested in you (value that you have to offer), and there won't be a need to sell anything, never mind some strategy to "beat her" by arguments... If you go to a store knowing that the price for what you want is $120, and now they have a great sale - for $100 - you will be more than happy to buy. You know you have a great deal, nobody has to be convincing you, nobody will argue with you... The same with girls, if they see a man that has value in her eyes, the man doesn't really have to do much convincing...

 

[Inbocca]

I feel like you've got a different impression of what "deep diving" is about.

For one, disagreeing or challenging isn't forbidden or discouraged. In fact, thread-cutting is something you have to do pretty often (bad topics almost always come up in convo) and it's a subtle form of frame control. Also, even when you are exerting frame control, it's not supposed to be a competition between you and her. 1) That pits you against her, and is in direct contrast to the "us" vibe you should be constructing; and 2) it implies that you even see her as competition. The idea behind frame control is you know what's best for both of you, and you're avoiding any hangups she might be throwing up while making yourself look like a dominant, in-control man who can give her what she wants even if she doesn't know what that is yet.

Chase lists the advantages of deep diving as such:

• You get to know people faster.
• You make friends and alliances faster.
• You’re “sticky”. You become one of those people that others meet and just want to hang onto and keep in their lives.

All it's about is moving faster and building a deeper connection. Like Drck said, many girls would rather go for light and superficial conversation, but even then going deep every now and then paints you as the kind of guy who cares about people, even total strangers, on a significant level. You're right in that frame control and deep diving establish two different precedents (one of being in-control, the other being caring), but they definitely don't negate one another.