Persistence

[Dern]

1st Question:

Okay, so I'll open direct a lot these days. And usually girls will say thanks and then keep walking. To this, I'll say something like: "stop for a second." But she'll say something like: "I can't, I've got class!" and then keep walking.

Am I asking for compliance too soon? Should I walk with her and banter for a while after my opener before asking her to stop?

2nd Question:

How do you persist without being needy? I usually say something like: "two minutes won't kill ya," or "don't go! we just started talking!"

After reading Chase's article on how to win frame battles, he says you need to combine logic and emotion when trying to get a girl to do something. So for example, would a better thing to say be like: "you know... it's not every day that you meet a confident stranger who can compliment you like I can (emotion). if you go now, we probably won't see each other again. plus, two minutes won't kill ya (logic)."

OR

"two minutes won't kill ya (logic), plus, I know you girls like spontaneous moments (emotion) "

The problem with this is that it's too long! I mean, girls usually are already walking away after I compliment them so I have to say something quick! This is why I'm wondering, should I walk with them to their class or work or wherever they're going for like a few minutes, then try to get her to stop? Isn't that chasing?

How do you guys usually get a girl to stop without sounding needy?

I've read Chase's articles and he says the following:

Take her idea and make it yours

Her: "I have to go to class"
Me: "me too! let's go!"

But this doesn't work if you both are walking opposite ways when you see each other. It just makes you look needy if you turn around and walk with her.

Tell her to stay for a few minutes

This is what I always do. Sometimes works, most of the time doesn't.

Differ with her

Girl: I really do have to go.
You: No you don't. You need to stop and do something fun for a change, that's what you need to do.
Girl: I wish I could.
You: You can. Come with me, my lady. [hold out your hand]
Girl: I can't!
You: Yes you can. Look how easy it is. Just come this way.
Girl: I can't! haha
You: Take my hand and all your troubles will fade away.

I do this sometimes too. But usually it doesn't work either.

Her: "I have to go to class"
Me: "no you don't"
Her: "yes I do" *continues walking*

The hard push

Pretty much just insisting till she stays or goes.

Throwing back the objection

Girl: We shouldn’t do this.
You: Oh, what should we do?
Said with a smile and a wink of course. Here’s another example:

Girl: I don’t know if we should do this.
You: Yeah, of course not. We should totally get up and go play a game of checkers.

One more, this one a longer example:
Girl: I don’t think we should move too fast.
You: Oh, really? How fast should we move then?
Girl: I don’t know! Just not this fast!
You: Right, of course not. Because moving this fast would be terrible. We should probably wait a few weeks or something.

I can see how this would work during LMR, but I don't see this applicable in when you're trying to get her to stop walking.

Forcing Decisions

Girl: I’m sorry, I can’t, I really can’t leave my friends…
You: Look, I like you. I think you’re cool people, and I enjoy talking to you. I’m going to go sit down over there now; so what’s it going to be – are you going to let me walk away, possibly forever, or are you going to come?

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

"two minutes won't kill ya (logic), plus, I know you girls like spontaneous moments (emotion) "

The problem with this is that it's too long! I mean, girls usually are already walking away after I compliment them so I have to say something quick! This is why I'm wondering, should I walk with them to their class or work or wherever they're going for like a few minutes, then try to get her to stop? Isn't that chasing?

If girls aren't stopping or slowing down, it's your fundamentals or the girl just isn't interested. You should walk with her for at least a minute or a few seconds. But what you can do is non-verbally gain compliance by walking VERY SLOW; if she matches your walk speed, you're controlling the interaction and have gained non-verbal compliance. THEN, you can have her stop, but I don't even ask girls to stop. I just walk with them for a minute or two, then grab the number - you shouldn't need anything more than that.

My past 5 cold approaches that have resulted in numbers/dates didn't last for more than 5 minutes.

Your logic/emotion tweaks to your compliance demands sound good, but, like I said, I bet it's just a fundamentals problem. BUT, beyond the linguistics tweaks, if you insist on stopping girls, be very slow and loud when you say it. It's better that you go overboard with dominance than underwhelm her with submissiveness.

 

[Dern]

Yes, I totally agree: fundamentals are my main problem! Mainly my looks I think! I've been hitting the gym hard and eating a lot because of this! Most fundamentals are pretty easy to handle. I mean, its not that hard to walk straight (it is hard to constantly remind yourself to do this though) or walk slow or talk slow or use pregnant pauses. It's just that you have to train yourself to be doing these things constantly! Doing them isn't the hard part, its doing them constantly!

For example, I will have good posture, open a girl, then once I start talking to her, I'll be consciously thinking about the conversation, and what happens? Well, I start slouching, without realizing it, because I am so into the conversation! Then when she leaves or I get her number, I'll think: "wait... was I just standing straight? oh shit... maybe I wasn't... fuck fuck fuck"

but I don't even ask girls to stop. I just walk with them for a minute or two, then grab the number - you shouldn't need anything more than that.

Wow, maybe I should start doing this. Chase puts such emphasis on getting investment that I always try to get the girl to stop, but maybe I should just start doing what you do. Or at least, try it a few times. I can see why this works rather than getting them to stop, because in the daytime, people are usually up and abouts; really busy. I'm guessing that you NEVER match the girls pace, instead, you walk extremely slow either right after your opener or a couple minutes after your opener. That is how you weed out the uninterested girls.

I'm just scared that the girl will walk into class, never to be seen again, or walk into work, never to be seen again. That is why I always try to get them to stop.

 

[Longshanks]

This evidently worked once:
Her: I'm not the kind of girl who has one night stands.
Him: That's ok baby, we'll fuck in the morning.
Scha-wing!

 

[bassman]

Yes, I totally agree: fundamentals are my main problem! Mainly my looks I think! I've been hitting the gym hard and eating a lot because of this! Most fundamentals are pretty easy to handle. I mean, its not that hard to walk straight (it is hard to constantly remind yourself to do this though) or walk slow or talk slow or use pregnant pauses. It's just that you have to train yourself to be doing these things constantly! Doing them isn't the hard part, its doing them constantly!

For example, I will have good posture, open a girl, then once I start talking to her, I'll be consciously thinking about the conversation, and what happens? Well, I start slouching, without realizing it, because I am so into the conversation! Then when she leaves or I get her number, I'll think: "wait... was I just standing straight? oh shit... maybe I wasn't... fuck fuck fuck"

Hi Dern, I've been pondering on this the last couple days because I made a post on it in the general board "multi task challenged?". Franco replied with good advice as always, but I started thinking back to last summer when I had my fundamentals down a lot better than I do now (I've let myself get a little lazy though the winter). I remember making myself focus on my fundamentals in every interaction through out my day and treat it like I would approaching a girl. I would make myself get into conversations with people I usually wouldn't take the time to (clerks, people I usually stay brief with at work, random people). All the while talking and deep diving with them I would focus on my fundamentals, while reading their body language and reactions. I would do this with both men and women. If
Its a guy just replace the flirtatious vibe with a warm, friendly, get to know you vibe.

What I found by doing this was that by making myself focus on fundamentals 24/7 that it just becomes your natural state so that when you do go approach that sexy gal you want a date or number from it goes much smoother and your fundamentals stay intact much better. I had to step back and access myself because i got lazy over the winter and lately I have been trying to "flip a switch" so to speak to turn my fundamentals on when I approach and it just doesn't work that way. I have retreated back into my introverted self somewhat this winter and my goal now is to start focusing on my fundamentals 24/7 rather than just when I approach. It's not easy because it does mentally drain you at first but if you stick it out long enough it will get you where you want to be.

So I definitely agree that fundamentals are the key here. I remember not having to say hardly anything to a girl and just the way I held myself around her would have her qualifying herself to me. Now that I'm slacking on my fundamentals I almost forgot what that was like. It's fundamentals

Hope this makes sense...

 

[Marty]

I mean, its not that hard to walk straight (it is hard to constantly remind yourself to do this though)

What do you mean, "walk straight"? I assume you're sober when you're running day-game?

 

[Dern]

I mean, its not that hard to walk straight (it is hard to constantly remind yourself to do this though)

What do you mean, "walk straight"? I assume you're sober when you're running day-game?

Hahaha, I meant walk straight, as in walking with my back straight. Sorry for the confusion

Thanks for your responses guys. I read your post bassman, and yes, I think instead of focusing on three fundamentals, I should only focus on one. For example, I've been working for a while on walking straight, having solid eye contact, and speaking slowly, but I still don't feel like I have those things engrained in me yet (except for eye contact - actually I sometimes stare at girls to put the social pressure on them, and sometimes, they get creeped out... so am I overdoing this)?

For the upcoming weeks, I should focus only on having a straight back. Actually, when I was young, my mother would always pester me about standing straight, but I would never listen to her! I remember her saying that I would scare girls away with that kind of posture, and that I would regret it when I was older. Guess what? Now, I fucking regret it! I should've listened to her all those times! It's funny how ironic life can be sometimes.

Bassman, I totally agree that the best way to practice your fundamentals are to practice them 24/7. For example, if you can't hold eye contact when speaking with your good friend, how are you going to be able to hold eye contact speaking with a gorgeous girl? Like you said, this is fucking hard! For example, I just was slouching over my keyboard whilst typing this (because I was consciously thinking about what to type, not about posture). Good thing I realized, because now I'm sitting straight

But yeah, the best way to practice fundamentals is to always be thinking about the one you are focusing on (I just re-adjusted my sitting position again! Lol).

So I definitely agree that fundamentals are the key here. I remember not having to say hardly anything to a girl and just the way I held myself around her would have her qualifying herself to me. Now that I'm slacking on my fundamentals I almost forgot what that was like. It's fundamentals

I want to get to this stage soooo badly. Not many girls seem to open up to me. Even when I deep dive. They won't even answer my deep dive questions! For example: "what do you like about kinseology?" She'll say: "it's interesting." I'll say: "well, what's so interesting about it?" And she'll say: "I don't know, I just like it."

Like this drives me insane sometimes! If I keep trying to pry, that'll turn her off even more! And so I don't even know what to do. I'll either put on a bored look, or give her eye contact, but most of the time, they won't re-initiate me! Honestly, ugly rejections like these make me stronger, but at the same time, it fucking destroys me! I wake up sometimes feeling so disgusted at myself! I can't help but feel that girls are rejecting me for how I look.

As you can see, I have some serious self-esteem issues. But I'm working on it... I really am. It's just that fundamentals take time to develop... and I guess that that's what's making me so angry: I just wish I could be better, faster. But I have to accept that not everything is a quick fix. Yes, you can go to the mall and splurge, but in the end, even having good fashion takes time to develop! I remember that once in a while, in my journal, I would have these posts that were like "fundamental checklists."

I have accessed all my fundamentals, and I'm pretty clear on what I have to work on. Most importantly, I want to work on my face! Like I just took a look at my face in my mirror, and I'd have to say that my skin isn't completely clear. Like I mean, I don't have serious acne like some people. Some people have a lot acne, and some people have a lot of acne scars! My face is relatively clear, but when I was little, I had a condition known as eczema: excessive drying and itching of the face. I struggled with this over the course of my childhood, and I eventually did get rid of it. However, I still will have like little signs of it. For example, when I am stressed or thinking or whatever, I don't even know! But throughout the day, I will get random itches, and this will cause me to itch my face or neck or whatever. And this will cause my skin to turn red and/or dry. So when I just looked at my face, I counted like a few tiny small dots, where the skin was scratched off, but is recovering. Also, I think that when I have acne, and it recovers, it leaves like a very faint red mark on my skin. Like if you google images "acne scars," you will see some very nasty everyday shit. That's not what I have. I just have some extremely faint marks where my acne was. I don't think its that big of a deal, you can hardly see it, and I doubt its worth applying scar removal cream on that shit. I'm tripping... like what am I talking about? I have beautiful skin compared to some other people

It's just I have this red dot on my nose right now, and its fucking pissing me off! I think it was like acne, but now it looks like a dot that is recovering. Also, I have a few small bumps on my forehead. I think its like extremely mild acne since its just bumps, and not red bumps. Anyways, I be applying clean and clear acne removal on that shit err day. Omg... I'm going on a tangent... again...

So next thing up: I have a slightly crooked nose. I told my friends this, and they said that it is hardly crooked. But I looked at the picture on my driver license, and the picture on my school id, and my nose looks fucking crooked dude! And these are the pictures where they have you sit straight and face them straight, so I doubt it is the way I am turned! I remember back in high school, I was really baked and I was being stupid and playing around with a dumbbell in my friends basement, and I dropped it on my fucking nose! And I think ever since then, my nose has been a tiny bit crooked. Anyways, I have to talk to a doctor about this. I remember I did once a long time ago, and he said that he also had a crooked nose, and that surgery wouldn't be worth it. Well fuck him! I have to find a doctor who will be willing to re-align my nose.

Okay, okay, last fucking thing. Sorry for the swearing lol. But fuck! I have these small white dots near my eye called milia. I went to a doctor, and he popped the big ones for me. But fuck him! He refused to pop the smallest ones. His reason? "Milia is just like acne; it's a part of growing up, and you're just going to keep getting them. Popping the small ones isn't worth the irritation for you, I mean your eyes were watering as I popped the big ones."

Fuck him! I'm going to fucking go back, and fucking force him to pop the small ones. Yeah acne is a part of growing up, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything to stop it! Same goes with milia.

Okay, I'm sorry guys, I know I'm probably grossing you all out, but I just really just had to get this shit out. I'm done... for now. I feel like I should've made this into a separate post called "dealing with fundamentals" or something like that. But for now, this will just be here, under "Persistence." Lol suitable title for this post... yeah I'll probably create another post another time where I assess all my fundamentals and get tips from others on how to get clear skin, how to deal with dry skin, how to deal with acne, how to deal with blah blah fucking blah. Okay. Done.

 

[ProblemSolving]

Dern,

There's nothing wrong with your face, so forget about surgery. You don't have acne, so forget about that too. All your problems can be fixed by yourself.

First, have a look at the guys that are with the girls that you find attractive. How do they style their hair, how do they dress? Emulating them can quickly boost your attractiveness. It really is amazing how much hair style and clothing affects a person's attractiveness whether they be male or female.

Next, have a look at the size difference between attractive girls and the men that they are with. If the guy is skinny, he is usually quite a bit taller than the girl. If the guy is short, he's usually built like a tank! You can't do much about your height, but you sure can turn yourself into a tank with some hard work.

It all boils down to masculine-feminine polarity - women are attracted to strength and masculinity the same way men are attracted to femininity. It's pretty tough for a girl to take you seriously during cold approach, if you're not significantly taller and/or more muscular than her. If you don't look like you could physically dominate her with ease, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle before you even open your mouth. Targeting girls that are noticeably smaller than you (Legal of course) will improve your odds. You're working on getting bigger and you're getting results, just keep going.

Lastly, don't over-think your conversations. You shouldn't be thinking about what to say next, simply expand on the topics that come up from the questions you ask. You don't think about what you're going to say next when you're with your friends, so don't do it with the girls you meet.

Remember that in order to get attractive women, you have to make yourself above average, but doing so, requires work that other average guys aren't willing to do.

 

[bassman]

Dern, problemsolving makes great points above.

Here's my take.
It's sounds like you are in your head and thinking too much about your flaws, which is leading to your self esteem issues. I know it's hard but you have to stop thinking about those things too much. Women pick up on this stuff very readily. It's like chase talks about, your posture and the way you hold your self naturally gives you a confidence boost, but at the same time the way you feel about your self is also playing big part on how you carry yourself and come across. Chase calls it a "feed back loop".

Every time you start thinking about a flaw "you think" you have, stop yourself (chase says he yells "STOP!!" in his head when he gets negative thoughts) and replace it with something you think is a positive about yourself. For me I tell myself stuff like I'm am a really good musician, I have awesome job etc.

Now about the dry face. I get dry skin on my face too because of where I work. I had an ex buy me Clinique for men face "gel" (not the lotion) and I put it on right after I get out of the shower and it works better than anything I have ever tried. You can get it at macys. With acne, I get a little break out every now and then and use the clearasil tinted cream. It helps hide the redness of the pimple and makes it much less noticeable. I actually learned from a girlfriend to mix a little lotion with it and it blends in much better. Might sound too "pretty boy" but god damn, it works great.

On the crooked nose. When you look at yourself, 90% of the time you are looking in a mirror that is an inverted image of yourself. And a lot I peoples noses are just slightly crooked, including mine. So when you look at a photo of yourself, it looks 100% the opposite way of what you are used to seeing. That's an extreme change. My nose looks super crooked to me when I see photos of myself, but to everybody else it looks like it would to you in the mirror. Try looking at one of your friends in the mirror with you, they will look 180 of what they look like to you from how you usually see them. Small things stand way out. That's how you see yourself in photos.

The thing here is, you have to, have to, have to, quit "dwelling" on these things and making them "crutches" for your the reasons you are not doing well with women. Yes, it's ok to assess these things every now and then and look for a fix, but dwelling is terrible. I know. I used to make up all sorts of excuses why I wasn't good with women like my teeth not being perfect, one if my ears sticks out further than the other, my voice is to high etc. and the worst... in my younger days I worried that my dick wasn't big enough.

Absolutely nothing good comes out of dwelling on your insecurities. You have to focus on the positive aspects of yourself and accentuate them. And i felt almost like was lying to myself for a long time by chanting my positives to myself over and over again and forgetting about the insecurities. But it worked and now I am the "prize" and not the "cute" girls that I hit on. Any insecurity you are caught up in will show right through any facade you put up when picking up chicks. Just get rid of them and improve yourself on anything you have control over. The mind is the most powerful tool we have. Besides, girls are way more self conscious about themselves. You just can't see it when you are caught up in your own.

I know it's hard to see, but trust me I have been right where you are at one point and there's no easy way to change, just hard mental work.

Hope this can help you bro

 

[Dern]

Thanks a lot of guys. I feel better today. I just have some days where I'm tired and/or have a lot of harsh rejections, and yesterday was one of them. Also, I did some meditation where I imagined myself walking slowly and sexually down my school hallway with a straight back, and everyone was staring at me. I imagined how much social pressure would be on me (because when you walk so slowly and sexually, it seems like you are the centre-stage), and how I would handle it as I walked. I also thought about how happy I would be when I finally learn how to do this exercise that I've been trying to learn for what seems to be the longest time (barbell squat).

Today, when I got to school, I walked down that same hallway exactly as how I imagined I would walk. Throughout the day, I focused solely on my posture and walk. It doesn't matter what I say, or what people say anymore. I just have to forget about that and instead, consciously think about my posture.

Bassman,

Thanks for listing specific products to buy. Right now I'm using Vaseline total moisture dry skin lotion for my dry skin. I guess it works, but I'm definitely going to go try finding the Clinique for men face gel. What's the difference between gel and lotion though? Isn't gel for your hair and lotion for your skin?

I googled Clearasil tinted cream and it is 10% benzoyl peroxide. The product I'm using right now (clean and clear advantage plus 3-in-1 cleanser is 5% benzoyl peroxide, so it seems to be a weaker version of the product you use. Also, what do you think of products that use salicylic acid? Is this shit too strong (leading to dried up face)? I used to use clean and clear acne control kit which was three products (1 was benzoyl peroxide, and the other 2 were salicylic acid), and this kit was really good, the only problem was that it would dry up my face, and I would have to cover it up with dry skin lotion. I know salicylic acid is stronger than benzoyl, which is probably why I had better results with it, but I'm sure benzoyl will clear your skin up as well, it just takes longer.

I'm treating you like a doctor, so it's totally understandable if you have no answers to my questions. I'll probably go to a real doctor and ask him these questions anyways (when I go to visit him about my milium). All in all, I don't even really have acne like ProblemSolving said. It's just that once in a while, I'll get like a red pimple here and there. And right now, I have some tiny faint bumps on my forehead; they aren't red though, I think its just really faint acne.

Regarding focusing on the positive aspects of myself. I made a list where for every three pros that I write down, I write down one con that I want to change about myself. Is this good? Or should I only write down positives. Also, I noticed that your positives are concrete things like good musician and good job. When I look at my list, I have abstract things like: perseverance, self-improving, and observant. I've read on a psychology website a long time ago (its called 2knowymself), that you shouldn't list concrete things like having a good job to be proud of yourself. Because what if you lose your job the next day? Then you will immediately be depressed. Instead, this guy says that instead, focus on the attributes that landed you the job. For example, if you got the job because you were persistent and worked hard, then focus on that. This way, if you lose your job, it doesn't matter because you will always be a persistent hard worker, meaning another job could be just around the corner. In other words, base your happiness on who you are, rather than what you are. Things might not always go your way, but your qualities will always be there.

I study psychology in school, and when people are asked the question: "who are you?" Everyone answers differently. Some people write things like: "I am a doctor." Others will write things like: "I am friendly." It really depends on your culture too. Anyways, this is getting slightly off topic, but it really is interesting, and I want to know what your thoughts on this are.

ProblemSolving,

Remember that day we went out together? Well, I remember you giving me advice on approaching, but honestly what do you think about my fundamentals? What could I improve on (other than building muscle)?
I had an appointment with my gay hairstylist the other day (I read somewhere on the forums that a gay hairstylist is the way to go). He cut out a slick hairstyle for me. He told me how to re-create it at home, and I bought the products needed, but I forgot how to re-create it, so I just called the hair salon, and he's going to call me on Sunday to talk to me, and hopefully remind me. You say there's nothing wrong with my face, and I'm pretty confident in the way I dress (although I really want to replace my black sneakers with those brown leather dress shoes that look boss as fuck), but what about my other fundamentals?

 

[ProblemSolving]

Hair and clothes are some of the easiest and most crucial aspects of your appearance that you can modify. In your case, both need to be upgraded.

Hair

Chicks love that new hairstyle where it's buzzed on the sides and slicked into a side part on top. Hopefully, your gay hairstylist hooked you up with something similar. It does look sharp.

Clothes

This is tough one because the fit is often more important than the actual garment (Did I really just say garment? Yeesh) I'm not going to scour fashion sites for options. Just look at the guys with hot girls on their arm and you'll have a pretty good idea of what to shoot for. What you'll notice about the men and women that really catch peoples' eyes is that they wear something that sets them apart from the plain masses around them - it could be the way the clothes hug their frame, or the brightness of a color, or an attention grabbing pattern. It doesn't take much to stand out from the crowd, so don't over do it.

Looking like a boss is good, so with the brown dress shoes!

 

[H-Two-O]

Yesterday I approached 4 different girls and had the same problem. I know my appearance is great, thanks God, and I know I have great postures / natural Alpha style but perhaps I was very badly dressed becasue I wanted to go to the gym but decided to go in the street and game a little bit instead. I had white and green Crocs on green Addidas T-shirt and black sport trouser. LOL

But I can assure you that those rejections ONLY made me stronger.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

I had white and green Crocs on

"There's your problem right there."

Anatman

 

[Dern]

ProblemSolving said:

Hair

Chicks love that new hairstyle where it's buzzed on the sides and slicked into a side part on top. Hopefully, your gay hairstylist hooked you up with something similar. It does look sharp.

I would love to have a hairstyle like this, but, unfortunately, my ears stick out to the sides. Therefore, I've been growing out my hair for a while as to cover my ears... My ears are almost completely hidden!

I talked to my hairstylist and he hooked me up with a slicked back mob-like hairstyle.

Sorta looks like this:

http://www.justjared.com/2009/03/06/zac ... -back-boy/

The only difference is that I have way more hair, so my hair isn't short on the sides.

What I don't like about this new hairstyle is that I have to use a lot of product to create it. I don't know if this is a good thing? I read somewhere that too much hair product is seen as unattractive. But then I don't see why my gay hairstylist would suggest such a hairstyle.

I also get the impression of a rat when I look at myself in the mirror with this slicked back hair. I think this is because you can still slightly see my ears... At least I don't look like a monkey?