Physical escalation sticking point

[Dylan]

A major sticking point for me right now is physical escalation.

at the moment, what happens for me now on dates is something like this:

- Invite her home (she accepts)
- My flat only has a large bed, so we watch TV on my bed curled up
- Kiss
- Any further than that, and we fall into logical arguments about sex, or the girl decides not to carry on and leaves

I've had seven girls in my flat this year, kissed them all but had sex with none of them. The most recent girl said "we only just met", "it's too fast" before leaving.

I think my problem is that I allow myself to get dragged into logical arguments. I tend not to say too much in these situations because I know that logic here is not generally helpful. I also struggle to keep girls from leaving. I have sometimes persuaded them to stay longer, but they always leave without sex.

As I'm sure you all can relate to, this is really frustrating. How can I get past this? I've been reading Chase's responses to some common objections but I think fundamentally it is about frame control. Most recently, the girl's frame that she didn't want to have sex that night and that it was too fast outweighed mine.

How do I beat this?

I feel I've made progress in inviting girls home more quickly than usual. Perhaps I need to put on the news as Chase suggested.
I'm also more relaxed in these situations than before as I'm more familiar with them, and I also move quickly during them. I keep thinking sooner or later I'll meet a girl who won't offer any resistance or so little I'll be able to overcome it, but it's not happening for me at the moment.

I know there's a trick that I'm missing, but what is it?

 

[Franco]

Dylan,

I think my problem is that I allow myself to get dragged into logical arguments. I tend not to say too much in these situations because I know that logic here is not generally helpful.

It sounds like you recognize your problem. This one can take awhile to get right, but if you can integrate some humor into your interaction to make her more comfortable, you can certainly increase your chances. I know one that Chase has mentioned and has come up a few times on the board is something like the following:

Her: But we just met! We shouldn't have sex yet!
You: Oh, so what should we do then? Would you prefer a game of Checkers instead? *sly grin*
Her: Haha, nooo!

While doing this, you should continue caressing her and physically turning her on. The idea is to repeatedly "bat" her logical mind down by teasing her and physically caressing her so that all her mind CAN really think about is sex with you. Also, you need to continually be using a "push-pull" form of physical escalation where you're constantly attempting to get your fingers in her pussy by caressing all of her body, then just her legs, then her inner thighs, and eventually her pussy. Every time she starts to resist, you pull back two steps and rinse and repeat. You also need to be looking at her with intense bedroom eyes and doing things such as kissing her neck. She basically needs to feel like SHE is the ultimate object of your desire and there is nothing else that will satisfy you right at that moment other than having sex with her. Keep in mind this can sometimes take hours; I've seen it take as long as 4 hours before.

Remember not to get involved in logical arguments! Instead, every time she makes an objection to why you shouldn't be having sex, stop yourself before you speak and think of something funny/witty to slap down her objection and make her laugh or giggle. Even if you need a long pause, it's much better than engaging in the argument with her.

- Franco

 

[Dylan]

Thanks Franco for the considered (and fast!) reply.

I've written down how it went this evening and I think I need to reconsider my process for when I get a girl back. I think I've realised that the logical arguments are actually a symptom of a poor process once the girl is home.

At the moment, my process goes something like this:

1. shoes off
2. Put on a movie or TV show
3. Lie on the bed together and watch it
4. Kiss
5. Escalate to sex

The problem is step 5 hasn't happened in this process yet

I think I get why I get to step 4 and fail:

1. The film/show gives the girl a focus for attention that isn't me. She's watching the film/programme and not focusing on me.
2. Curling up in bed can actually make the angles quite awkward for touching her whole body.

So, next time, I'm going to change things. As Chase suggested, I'm going to put the news on and sit with her on the edge of the bed, or put some cushions down on the slightly raised part of my flat (I don't have a couch) and escalate harder there. I think this will screen out girls who aren't committed to sex, but it will make girls hornier, shut down logic and lead to more closes.

If something's not working, it might be time to change it up. Thoughts?

 

[wanderersh]

Hey fellas,

I also just had this problem last weekend with 2 separate girls - almost identical where I try to physically escalate but got firmly blocked. Would love to hear your thoughts.

In both cases they were 2nd dates, and we went back to her place at the end of the night -
Girl A - Had dinner, went to a chill live music joint, then back at her place. After ~30m music/chat we started making out. Things got heavier and I laid her on the bed. I continued making out with her, doing bedroom eyes, and kept trying to undress her to no avail. She let me touch her all over fine but each time I got to her bra or panties she would resist firmly physically, so I backed off and tried again for 5-6X over the course of an hour. Each time she firmly pushed my hand away, and a couple times she kept saying "You should go", and finally pushed me off her. I decided it wasn't happening so did leave. I know it wasn't unpleasant for her though because she was smiling and wistful, and we made out a bit more before I left.
Girl B - Pretty similar story, we went to a wine event with some new friends, alone toward the end of the night and went to her place. Started making out, I could tell she was enjoying it because she started moaning a bit, but then same thing kept pushing me away. I tried 3 times in about 20min, could never get very far. And I had an early flight the next day so decided f--- this I'm going home. But same thing, we were still touching each other all the way out the door

We've been texting constantly since last weekend though. And I really want to get laid next weekend when I'm back, so how do you guys suggest I unblock? My self-diagnosis thus far -

• Need to build more rapport/trust? - maybe we didn't connect enough over conversation? Both are quite nice girls, so maybe they're afraid of being hurt or anti-slut defense. I don't want to fall into "boyfriend" category though, which I sense both want to put me in.

• Need to escalate faster, harder? - but I'm not sure how to get further when she keeps pushing my hand away firmly. And I mean _firmly_. I've done the rinse & repeat thing 4-5X with each girl, and gotten nowhere. Should I address or ask about her concerns next time we get hot and heavy, or just keep quiet and plow ahead?

Also, is there anything I can do over text meanwhile to prime her for some action next weekend?

Thanks a ton guys,
wanderer

 

[Franco]

wanderersh,

In both cases they were 2nd dates, and we went back to her place at the end of the night -

I almost missed this important piece of information. A second date tells me a couple of possibilities happened here:

• (1) These girls had already boyfriend-zoned you. Being that this was a second date, they had already decided that they weren't going to sleep with you and wanted to keep you chasing. Every date that goes by (beyond the first) becomes increasingly more difficult to sleep with a girl because she values you as more than a sexual partner.
  
  (2) You attempted to escalate on a date where they had a feeling you would push for sex. Also given that this was a second date, these girls knew that you might attempt to take them home and bed them after these dates, so they were mentally prepared to tell you "no." These days, when I don't lay a girl on the first date, I usually take her on a romantic second date (like you did) and then leave without inviting her back to my place. If she was really into you after the date and thought you were going to invite her back to your place, it will really confuse her when you don't invite her back, but it will make her want you more. Then, a few days later, you invite the girl for a third date directly at your place. At that point, she'll be lusting over you so hard that the amount of resistance you will get is probably minimal.

Moral of the story here, of course, is to close on the first date if possible. The more quickly you close, the less she sees you as a potential boyfriend option and the more likely she is to sleep with you (and thus actually increase your chances of you being able to become her boyfriend if you want to). If you can't close on the first date, you have to then play the "game" with her and be one move ahead of her thinking.

Hopefully this helps. =)

- Franco

 

[wanderersh]

Thanks for the quick reply Franco! That was really helpful. A quick follow-up:

If you can't close on the first date, you have to then play the "game" with her and be one move ahead of her thinking.

So I guess I'm now left with playing the "game" and trying to bed them as quickly as possible right? I found Chase's article on overcoming LMR, which was quite good. Though it assumes you can overcome LMR in the first session, which I failed at. On the next date, If I encounter hard LMR again, any other advice besides escalating hard and fast ?

 

[Franco]

wanderer,

I tried 3 times in about 20min, could never get very far. And I had an early flight the next day so decided f--- this I'm going home. But same thing, we were still touching each other all the way out the door

So I guess I'm now left with playing the "game" and trying to bed them as quickly as possible right? I found Chase's article on overcoming LMR, which was quite good. Though it assumes you can overcome LMR in the first session, which I failed at. On the next date, If I encounter hard LMR again, any other advice besides escalating hard and fast ?

I just wanted to point out the fact that your persistence in getting sex was pretty weak since you only tried 3 times in a span of 20 minutes. Getting past LMR can sometimes take hours, so you need to be patient and keep trying until she eventually can't control herself anymore (because she wants sex with you so badly). The point of persisting so much is so that she knows you really want her and aren't just looking for a pump and dump for the night (and won't treat her like a pump and dump in the morning).

As far as your next attempts, you pretty much just have to keep taking them into the bedroom and trying until you get what you want. At this point, they would both know that they are controlling the flow of the relationship because you are inviting them over to see you again when you simply could have invited over other options to sleep with if you had them. That's not to say that you can't still bed these girls, but be prepared to face resistance again and push through it as best as you can.

- Franco

 

[wanderersh]

Hey Franco,

First of all, thanks for the great advice. Just wanted to quickly report back - I did take both of them home again, and succeeded with one of them. Ironically, she was much more receptive the 2nd time, I'm not sure what it was, maybe just the "I won't sleep with him no matter what on a 1st date" thing. I guess my game isn't tight enough to pull a same-night seduction yet. Gotta keep working on it.

I got pretty close with the other girl, but she was really resisting hard at the end and I decided to give it a break after a whole night. Will keep pushing hard as you advised and hope that goes well. Thanks again!

wanderersh