Relative Dominance and Fundamentals.

[Bboy100]

Ok, so the other day, I went out with a girl who was VERY dominant. Both in her nonverbals and in how strongly she holds to her beliefs about the world. For the first time in a while, I had that "nervous feeling". The one I can only assume most girls get when they're around me. Like there's someone powerful in the room. I wouldn't say she had good fundamentals in terms of how GC would describe it because she wasn't particularly sexy but she was dominant.

Anyways, what I noticed is that for the first time in forever, I felt a little bit "panicky" like I didn't have control throughout a date. Moreover, she was denying compliance requests from me both subtly and overtly, and I eventually found myself taking her lead. Frankly, it felt immasculating. I felt like a 12 year old boy. Despite that, the date wasn't going too horribly. She was laughing at my jokes, she seemed genuinely interested in getting to know me etc.

In any case, I noticed that my Fundamentals also got weaker around her. My voice was softer, I broke eye contact first a few times (something I NEVER do with other people), even my walk got a little bit worse (i.e. I wasn't standing as straight, and I didn't have a swag in my shoulders).

With a lack of fundamentals, even my jokes and actual "game" seemed kinda dumb. Like, I have this really dry sense of humor Ex. Her: If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish it. Me: [In a deadpan, serious voice] What? I'm not taking my brain out of my skull. That's very counterproductive [Inquisitive/skeptical look].

If I have a dominant/sexual/edgy vibe, jokes like those actually work really well for me. But without it, It just makes me sound like a boy. Like a joke a 14 yr old would make.

This whole thing was kind of a shock to me because tbh, I thought that from a "value" standpoint, I was better than pretty much anyone I'd run into in my age group...quite a humbling experience for me.
Anyways...My question for this post is:

1. Are fundamentals relative? In other words, is it normal for fundamentals to crumble when you're around someone more dominant/with better fundamentals than you?
2. Even if I'm less dominant than she is, does that necessarily kill her attraction for me? Or is dominance only a piece of a bigger whole? Because by the end of the date, she honestly still seemed pretty into me. Despite the fact that she was in control.

 

[Chase]

Bboy-

These are always super educational experiences!

I find the women I run into who match this profile most often are the ones who deal frequently with direct sales to men. Sometimes they're business owners selling products to men and negotiating with men; sometimes they're employees of, say, a pharmaceuticals company and used to selling and persuading high-ish status men, like doctors and hospital managers.

Dominance is dependent on the winner effect: How to Be a Dominant Man: What You Didn't Know About the 'Winner Effect'. If you start losing (e.g., she's deflecting compliance requests, driving the conversation, etc.), testosterone begins to drop, and with it a host of other things like confidence, assertiveness, posture, etc.

When you find yourself out with a girl who's coming on super dominant and strong, I find it's usually best to kick back and just be chill for a while. When you do this, you aren't putting yourself out there, so aren't actively winning or losing, more sticking to the middle, and if you're being chill it's hard for her to get wins out of you either. So what happens is she spends a lot of time going through her spiel (and many of these girls have a certain process they go through for small talk / deep diving that works on most guys, and they use it everywhere - sales meetings, dates, etc. Doesn't turn off for them), just gets polite conversation, and then once you can tell she's losing a little steam you take charge and start probing her more, then ramp up compliance requests as you build steam.

The OTHER thing you can do is go head-to-head with them and just out-dominate them, but you need to be super dominant for this: you need to be breaking their patterns, interrupting them, hold a much stronger frame than them (e.g., their frame: "I am woman, hear me roar"; your frame: "You're so silly and cute!"), and basically not care. Easier to say than to do, especially when you aren't expecting it and/or if the gal in question is really super dominant. Also, for out-dominating, it helps if doing this to dominant women is a turn-on for you; then you get a rise out of her struggling and you conquering, and it's exciting. If it isn't this for you, and the behavior turns you off, it'll be tough to out-dominate her, since you won't have a whole lot of intrinsic motivation for this, and she generally will ("Prove to every man that I am not only equal, but better" seems to be the general motivation). In that case, I'd recommend just hanging back a bit and avoiding losses until she's run herself out a bit, then begin to take charge.

Her being more dominant won't necessarily kill attraction. Many dominant women actually prefer men softer than themselves whom they feel like they can control. However, they tend to run through these relationships quickly and often leave the guy hurt and confused at the end of the relationship. Sometimes, very dominant women have defense mechanisms up against dominant men, and begin auto-rejecting if a man acts too dominant, because they see him as competition or a threat.

Chase

 

[Bboy100]

I find the women I run into who match this profile most often are the ones who deal frequently with direct sales to men.

Yeah, that's exactly what she does! Her business was a little complicated, and she didn't explain it very well, but it was all about selling her services as "connector" to other companies.

When you find yourself out with a girl who's coming on super dominant and strong, I find it's usually best to kick back and just be chill for a while. When you do this, you aren't putting yourself out there, so aren't actively winning or losing, more sticking to the middle, and if you're being chill it's hard for her to get wins out of you either. So what happens is she spends a lot of time going through her spiel (and many of these girls have a certain process they go through for small talk / deep diving that works on most guys, and they use it everywhere - sales meetings, dates, etc. Doesn't turn off for them), just gets polite conversation, and then once you can tell she's losing a little steam you take charge and start probing her more, then ramp up compliance requests as you build steam.

Yeah, this seems like it would be a good skill to have.
How would I put this into practice in situations where there are only two possible outcomes: I win or I lose.
Ex. She asks that we go to x store/venue.
I either say no, and renegotiate terms (i.e. we go to some other store or venue or don't go anywhere at all) and she accepts this frame- I win
I comply and we just go to wherever she asks- I lose
I say no, try to renegotiate terms but still comply- I lose
I say no, she persists, but eventually gives into my frame- I win

In this situation (or a similar one), what would I do to stay in the middle as opposed to win or lose?