Socializing  Responding to friendly ribbing, teasing

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 18, 2018
Messages
1,576
@Lobo because some people do not understand you are being patient and thus they believe you are being weak. Like sharks who smell blood. If someone is making repeated verbal attacks on you, they are also attacking your reputation/status and it is time to put them in place. Unreactivity is not always the right answer. Sometimes I feel you guys kinda get stuck in passive/unreactivity mode.

Instead of chosing lover/fighter paradigm why not switch them when needed? This is what I do, I start as lover if getting challenged I show a flash of fighter and I switch up to lover again. Usually gets the message across without losing lover frame.
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,539
hey Will, i feel like we are very similar in our approach to meeting people. I always step in with value and trying to uplift others, but sometimes you get the person who sees that as a sign of weakness and wants to take advantage.

I always delete them from my existence the moment I sense this and I have a strict "no asshole policy." I never throw the first punch, but if my asshole radar is going off, I bring the war.

Hey Lobo, yeah that's pretty much my approach. There's three main reasons, the first is that I usually put more value in giving someone the best chance to become a friend or acquaintance than I put in correcting an adversary, so I always offer that side of myself first. The second reason is that many times someone who starts off adversarial can be brought into a functioning relationship if you treat them the right way, and a big part of that is the sense of who is more in control and able to afford restraint. And thirdly I just enjoy not being affected by anyone.

I'm already a big guy, but I plan on training in fighting at some point as well... do you have any recommendations for a style that's good in real life scenarios, say a bar, or on the street with unpredictable circumstances. I know they are all good, but what I'm looking for is something that will allow me to quickly disable anyone, regardless of their weapons.

I haven't been in many fights in my life outside of my kickboxing training. I take it as a sign that I'm doing something right, because I don't avoid situations that could end up that way. But somehow I am often able to get someone who is ready to be provocative to pay attention to me rather than simply express their emotions, and that goes a long way toward defusing things. And I am not a particularly big or physically imposing guy.

For fights I believe there is only one real skill that is essential and that is the ability to throw a good punch. I'm inclined to say kickboxing but frankly I wouldn't ever throw a kick IRL, the risk of losing balance and ending up on the ground is too much. Wrestling is good to know in case, but you can't really subdue someone with wrestling when there's more than one. Anything on the ground is already way too risky IMO.

It is very good to know how to throw an elbow too, as it can be brutally effective and impossible to see coming during a grappling scenario, let's say if someone has their hands around your neck you get your arms on the inside and then just snap/rotate your elbow across the face.

Similarly, knees are fairly good, if you can pull someone's head down. If you're a very big guy you'll probably have an easier time with this.

In anything serious, I'd just go for the face with everything I had, with some basic knowledge of trips and throws to dump someone who got too close for punches.

I've never had to take a weapon off someone (though I have had a gun pointed at me while travelling), so I can't give any advice on that. Frankly I think if someone produces a weapon, you're better off conceding your wallet and your frame, and only fight if they were only there to cause harm. The risk factor goes through the roof. If I had to fight I wouldn't do anything differently for a manual weapon, probably just go for the face again and try to cause some pain fast while avoiding the weapon as best I could. I would never try to close distance at all but find any scrap of opportunity to get away.

If it's a gun and he's out to shoot you dead, just run like hell and hope he's a bad shot.

However what really interests me is that frame you were talking about. More specifically, how do you create that frame where you're not hostile, still remain charismatic, but also aren't an easy target(i think that's what you meant).

It's very difficult to describe what 'charisma' or 'edge' is in words. In terms of being dominant, I believe that the best way to describe it is someone who not only has a strong frame, but who is ACTUALLY willing and capable to impose it, though not frantic to do so.

Sometimes you see someone who is trying to be dominant or intimidating, but it is as if they are possessed by two minds, one which wants to go forward and the other one back. This makes them appear to struggle against an invisible web, exaggerate things, and generally show a lot of consternation and inner turmoil even when only faced with mild opposition. This triggers the aggression reflex in other people.

Someone who is not an easy target is someone who does not suffer so much the burden of what they might have to do, but is simply ready to do it. It is someone who, through circumstances, has already faced the question of how to respond to hostility and found that they have been able to meet its requirements - or at least they have faced the prospect of failure enough times that they are ready to face the question with bias. They have, as they say, a clear mind and a good conscience about what they may have to do.

There is also a more ambiguous 'edge' to people who have positively faced any kind of excruciating challenge to their physical or mental wellbeing. It may be partly because they have a better sense of themselves, or partly because they have experienced a closeness with total failure that gives them a kind of tranquility - after all anxiety is almost always about the things we know very little about, not the things we know well.

Another way to look at it: some people, through their experiences, have been trained to recoil from risk and danger, and other people have been trained to move toward it with intention. What makes a person do one or the other is hard to say, and it can change depending on what they go through. But I believe a big part of being a 'hard target' is having the reflex and the instinct (beneath the conscious level) to move toward and dominate problems rather than moving away. These reflexes express very subtly through body language during the build up to any conflict and very much determine how comfortable the opposing party is to keep escalating at each step.

In fact to be dominant, often all a person has to do is not make the small expressions of retreat or submission under pressure that many people do completely unconsciously in the course of socializing. Because the dynamic of this is so subtle, no one can say why they have such a strong 'presence', but the signal is very clear at the subconscious level.

PS:
I once had an experience in social circle, where a one-sided adversary caught me a fool(honestly was my fuck up), but the guy was really laying down the verbal punches and I was just there trying to study. I was fine ignoring him, but then one of the girls in the social circle(the one I was fucking at the time) started jumping in too, which encouraged the other girls to pile on as well! Out of fucking nowhere, it was a 1 on 4 and I was not prepared for that. Idk why this happened, thought we were friends. I had a strong lover frame with the girls as I had fucked 2/3 of them. I think it was because I bought them taco bell that day, which broke the frame. I also just had more tacit value than them, and something that I've noticed is that only people weaker than me, or scared of me, come after me.

I remember this vividly, and it was a painful, but it taught me an important lesson.

Context always matters in these kind of things. If it's a big group, and especially if I didn't know some or all of them very well, I'd show a lot of restraint - after all they aren't my friends yet and don't have a lot of value. But if you're one on one with a guy and a bunch of girls, you're going to have to be a lot more ready to play the game. Two guys and a bunch of girls is always trouble (or fun, depending on your point of view). It always becomes a mating competition, you're the only one he has to handle to be the 'winner'.

Girls know this, they very often pit men against eachother, after all their job is that of evaluation, and competition is the easiest way to evaluate two males. And if you're not being a sport, it's not surprising they'd pile in a bit. I wouldn't hold it against them though - regardless if you've laid her before if a girl isn't your girl, she's not going to be loyal. Guys can bond over some shared experience and feel like mates years later, a girl pretty much gets her perspective overwritten next dude she goes to bed with. And that's all well and good in many ways.
 

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 18, 2018
Messages
1,576
For fights I believe there is only one real skill that is essential and that is the ability to throw a good punch. I'm inclined to say kickboxing but frankly I wouldn't ever throw a kick IRL, the risk of losing balance and ending up on the ground is too much. Wrestling is good to know in case, but you can't really subdue someone with wrestling when there's more than one. Anything on the ground is already way too risky IMO.
Well placed low kick from a well trained kickboxer can end fights with also no real balance risk. This can be executed quite fast as well. Guys with no conditioning can feel pain from the shin of a good kickboxer by touch, not even kicking yet, but touch. Yes, this is how well conditioned kickboxers are.

Also wrestling provides superb conditioning, which will enhance your frame and confidence. Few things aside from weapons will make you afraid when you take out newbs as a good grappler.

The above are heavily recommended styles.

Someone who is not an easy target is someone who does not suffer so much the burden of what they might have to do, but is simply ready to do it. It is someone who, through circumstances, has already faced the question of how to respond to hostility and found that they have been able to meet its requirements - or at least they have faced the prospect of failure enough times that they are ready to face the question with bias. They have, as they say, a clear mind and a good conscience about what they may have to do.
Well worded

In fact to be dominant, often all a person has to do is not make the small expressions of retreat or submission under pressure that many people do completely unconsciously in the course of socializing. Because the dynamic of this is so subtle, no one can say why they have such a strong 'presence', but the signal is very clear at the subconscious level.
Again.. very well worded :)
 
Last edited:

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,539
Well placed low kick from a well trained kickboxer can end fights with also no real balance risk. This can be executed quite fast as well. Guys with no conditioning can feel pain from the shin of a good kickboxer by touch, not even kicking yet, but touch. Yes, this is how well conditioned kickboxers are.

This is correct, but I look at it as a question of risk and reward.

The main thing is, your legs are your insurance policy when things go downhill - you can start running if someone pulls out a knife or something. You don't want to put them at risk. It's very easy to bust the top of your foot or toe if you crack someone across the side of the knee, or if you go for the ribs and catch the bottom of the elbow. That's not to mention if the guy tries to check it and you end up shin to shin. It's not for nothing you see some MMA fighters legs break in half.

The other thing is if you've got jeans on you don't really know how well the kick will work, if you've got skinny jeans they can really pull your leg down or make you lose balance. And besides that, if you're in chelsea boots or something your footing won't be the best. When it's more than one guy being on the ground is the worst possible scenario, one of them can occupy you while the other stomps your head in.

In terms of effectiveness when done well though, you're absolutely right, I've trained with guys who made it sound like a clap of thunder when they kicked the heavy bag, one of them on the leg or ribs would put most people out of a fight immediately. So I guess it's a question of whether you think it's worth it.

Also wrestling provides superb conditioning, which will enhance your frame and confidence. Few things aside from weapons will make you afraid when you take out newbs as a good grappler.

I also agree with this for its benefits, but again not so much for fighting. Fighting is very rarely one on one, and if your get tangled up with one guy it's easy for someone else to come behind and whack you across the back of the head with something. Sure, it's good to know in case someone does get you down on the ground, but I wouldn't rely on it above striking.

Again if you're really good at it, yes you can toss people around and end fights with it, but in a realistic scenario I think you'd spend way too long occupied with someone without the ability to track other threats or easily move away if someone pulled something out.

I know this is a topic where people have strong and varied opinions, that's just mine.

One very good benefit of learning to wrestle though is that you experience having big, intimidating guys up in your space. That's very good for keeping your cool and not losing frame when someone is threatening you.

Well worded


Again.. very well worded :)

Glad you enjoyed it :)
 

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 18, 2018
Messages
1,576
That's not to mention if the guy tries to check it and you end up shin to shin. It's not for nothing you see some MMA fighters legs break in half.
Average Joe is not a MMA fighter haha ... even guys who have trained for some years still have difficulty with checking the shin. Common fear response is to drop their arms instead of raise their legs in order to check. I would give a good shin kick much better rate of succes than just going for the face in a haymaker kind of way. Also despite that shins can get checked MMA fighters and kickboxers still use lowkicks, probably for good reason I would say. You can throw in a feint so opponent doesnt see your kick coming, multiple routes.

I also agree with this for its benefits, but again not so much for fighting
In this case you really underestimate grapplers. These guys are TOUGH. Untrained fighter is childsplay for a well trained grappler. Well, I guess it is something you have to experience first. Did you ever spar with a grappler? Have you ever witnessed what they can do? For fun you should join class, hell you might enjoy it.

When it's more than one guy being on the ground is the worst possible scenario, one of them can occupy you while the other stomps your head in.
Not that different when standing, some guys friend can bash your head in from behind. Best thing to do when facing superior odds is get out of dodge.
 

Lobo

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Messages
198
Ty for your amazing reply

If it's a gun and he's out to shoot you dead, just run like hell and hope he's a bad shot
I hate guns for how oppresive they are. Suddenly, any bum with 2 fingers can play god.

So you mentioned punches, elbows, and knees being very good... I've been looking into krav maga, do you think its good or is it all hype?

These reflexes express very subtly through body language during the build up to any conflict and very much determine how comfortable the opposing party is to keep escalating at each step.

In fact to be dominant, often all a person has to do is not make the small expressions of retreat or submission under pressure that many people do completely unconsciously in the course of socializing. Because the dynamic of this is so subtle, no one can say why they have such a strong 'presence', but the signal is very clear at the subconscious level.
This is huge. I bring up this video of a man vs lion a lot, but not because i think its super cool(i think its dumb), but for how it shows us how universal body language is.

If i can sum up what the guy did to overpower a lion(at least mentally) was that he was typically less reactive than the lion and assumed more relaxed positions than the lion. He would only react when the lion crossed boundaries

Has anyone seen those videos where an elephant stops in its tracks in front of a person a fraction of its size? Its the fear of the unknown, the elephant has never seen something so self assured when charging at it.

It's like, you flinch, you lose.

It always becomes a mating competition, you're the only one he has to handle to be the 'winner'.
Interesting, not sure why guys would do this though.. i always thought it was more efficient and effective to just game the girls. Competitions like this make the two guys look like clowns while also elevating the importance of the girls.

The guy in the group never fucked even one of the girls and he was with them for a year. I come in and in two weeks I terrorize the place. I left the group after this and he still hasn't fucked. I occasionally fucked one of them but she became annoying.

One thing i noticed was that the guy was obsessed with being 'alpha', even verbal about this notion. When guys are trying to exert dominant behavior over you, what would be your goto in typical situations.

Not sure what exactly how to list dominant behavior, maybe agressive reframing, or otherwise any sign of hostility that you and other people recognize
 

Sully

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
226
I think the best thing to do when confronting someone who is trying to escalate physically is.

1) If in a place with security or bouncers, call them for help.
2) If on a street with no formless security people around, walk away. (Even when facing a lone guy, don't engage in physical unless and until you are cornered and forced to do so, who knows the guy might pull a knife, even of he doesn't there is a chance either either you end up in a hospital if you lose or with the cops if he is badly hurt).

I also doubt there will be much physical confrontations unless you are in some low class area.


 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,539
I think the best thing to do when confronting someone who is trying to escalate physically is.

1) If in a place with security or bouncers, call them for help.
2) If on a street with no formless security people around, walk away. (Even when facing a lone guy, don't engage in physical unless and until you are cornered and forced to do so, who knows the guy might pull a knife, even of he doesn't there is a chance either either you end up in a hospital if you lose or with the cops if he is badly hurt).

I also doubt there will be much physical confrontations unless you are in some low class area.



Yes, in case it wasn't clear I think fighting is pretty much an always losing scenario, even when you win. You can get into trouble, accidentally kill someone (if they bang their head on the pavement on the way down) or get someone with a vendetta who won't stop trying to get you back. Not to mention losing social frame in many cases.

I was talking in the scenario where you have to fight or else get hurt, and what would be effective then.

Most of the time you just want to avoid it altogether, most people don't want to see it, and girls aren't typically going around thinking a guy is a wimp if he doesn't start swinging when someone tools him a bit. She just wants to know you're not going to be psychologically dominated by some other dude.
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,539
So you mentioned punches, elbows, and knees being very good... I've been looking into krav maga, do you think its good or is it all hype?

Don't have enough experience with it to say.

This is huge. I bring up this video of a man vs lion a lot, but not because i think its super cool(i think its dumb), but for how it shows us how universal body language is.

If i can sum up what the guy did to overpower a lion(at least mentally) was that he was typically less reactive than the lion and assumed more relaxed positions than the lion. He would only react when the lion crossed boundaries

Has anyone seen those videos where an elephant stops in its tracks in front of a person a fraction of its size? Its the fear of the unknown, the elephant has never seen something so self assured when charging at it.

It's like, you flinch, you lose.

Yeah I've seen that one before, it seems you've basically got a lion that is used to something being a predator or a prey, either threatening or running away, and instead this guy is just being relaxed and consistently meeting each threat from the lion with a small show of dominance until it backs off.

That's a good rule I think for social interactions - when someone tries to take advantage, you do just enough to show them it won't work, but then you go back to being genial. Soon they realize it's just not worth finding out what you'd do if they went further.

Interesting, not sure why guys would do this though.. i always thought it was more efficient and effective to just game the girls. Competitions like this make the two guys look like clowns while also elevating the importance of the girls.

The guy in the group never fucked even one of the girls and he was with them for a year. I come in and in two weeks I terrorize the place. I left the group after this and he still hasn't fucked. I occasionally fucked one of them but she became annoying.

One thing i noticed was that the guy was obsessed with being 'alpha', even verbal about this notion. When guys are trying to exert dominant behavior over you, what would be your goto in typical situations.

Not sure what exactly how to list dominant behavior, maybe agressive reframing, or otherwise any sign of hostility that you and other people recognize

The kind of frame that experienced seducers have is not typical. Average guys learn to be opportunistic members of a hierarchical world, where they behave according to the rules until some scant opportunity comes along and then they try to find a way to seize it. The idea of guys helping eachother to get laid and not competing at every turn is foreign to them.

It's weird sometimes when you go out with a guy who isn't into seduction and he's all tense, trying to compete and not lose face, and you wish he'd just chill and the two of you could help eachother get laid.
 
Top
>