RR: Feeling overwhelmed and clueless

[Bboy100]

So I've been seeing this girl since March. Originally, it started out being an FWB type deal, but I feel like at this point, its gone waay beyond that. She's wonderful. She's very intelligent, altruistic/kind, hard working, loyal (I'm the only guy she's ever been with), adventurous, empathetic and compassionate towards not just me, but everyone she meets, she's really sweet ...and the list goes on.

There's only two problems:
1. She's only slightly above "average" in looks. She is "cute", but she's not up to my standard for a relationship.
2. I feel like the sex/chemistry has been better with other girls. Not that we have none at all, its just that its not as good as some of the other girls I've been on dates with. Admittedly, I never actually got together with any of the girls with whom I felt this "strong" chemistry. So its very possible that my perception of it all is pretty skewed.

Anyways...these two things alone are pretty much enough to cause hesitation when it comes to committing to an actual relationship with her. Also, I'll be graduating at the end of the Fall quarter and moving away from my college town. So the other issue here is that if it becomes a real relationship, it will eventually become an LTR. Which makes it even more complicated.

Up till now, I was pretty dead set on keeping it a polyamorous relationship. Until yesterday. Yesterday, she came to Seattle where I'm currently at to pick up her aunt and take her to the airport (the reason why she has to do that is a long story). We spent the rest of the day together. We had a lot of fun, and towards the end of the night, we got to talking. We were quite vulnerable with each other. I told her some things which I've told almost no one else, and I feel like she did the same with me. Additionally, before we had sex that day, she asked me if I've had sex with other girls since we've been apart because she was afraid of STDs. I told her I had sex with one (it was actually three, but I feel like the actual number is a white lie. Especially since I know I have no STDS).

I asked her if she's had sex with any other guys, and she said she hasn't. When I asked her why, she said its cause she really likes me and she doesn't want to be with anyone else. I then asked her if she's ok with the fact that I've been with another girl/our current open arrangement. She said she's fine with it. When I asked her why, she said its because she likes our relationship and what we're doing.

When she said she's fine with our current relationship, she seemed pretty genuine. But she's also the type of girl who won't tell me if there's a problem. Partially because she fears losing me (she's still super nervous around me even after all this time) and partially because she puts other people's needs WAAY above her own. So much so, that she could easily be suffering in silence just because she wants me to live the life I enjoy (she behaves this way with almost everyone, not just me). But I wouldn't want that for her cause it would not be fair to her. Unfortunately, I don't see any good way of finding out whether or not she's genuinely fine with what we're currently doing or not. Logic would dictate that there's no fucking way she's ok with this. But in regards to this relationship, almost all my assumptions/analysis's have been wrong. So I don't really trust myself to make anymore assumptions.

The bottom line is: I still have some pickup related goals which I want to continue working on. Also, I still don't want to commit to her because of the reasons outlined at the start of the post. But at the same time, I can't really imagine dumping her for someone else. Our connection is too deep and too strong for that at this point. So I feel stuck. I want to find a "better" girlfriend, but I also don't feel like I can let her go because she makes me happy. Additionally, I'm not sure that a hotter girl would make me happier than she does. But I also feel like it'll always feel hesitant/unsatisfied until I find out.

I feel like at this point I'm really close to falling in love with this girl. Although to be fair, I've never been in love so I don't know what its supposed to feel like. I really don't know what to do here. I've never had a relationship this intimate before, so I have no idea how to approach this situation.

 

[Drck]

Just two cents... Follow your heart, follow your own way... There is no need to sleep with 100 different girls if you think and feel you are with one good one.... See how relationship works out for you, there is lots of things to learn in relationships too, plus you can always come back to seduction...

The frame is actually pretty much the same, remain on top, remain the leading and dominant person, don't become weak beta provider obedient to her comments... Observe how she is slowly and persistently wearing you down to beta male with her sweetness, how is she molding you not submissive male, that's important...

If you want to remain free for the future, make sure you don't impregnate her and you don't get married. These two things make life much complicated, you just want to walk away should the relationship stop working out for you...

 

[Bboy100]

Just two cents... Follow your heart, follow your own way

Yeah...that's the problem. I'm completely indecisive on the matter. On some days, I feel like there's no reason for me to be seeing anyone else because she satisfies me, but on other days, I feel like she's not good enough and that I could do better (or will continue improving myself until I can).

Observe how she is slowly and persistently wearing you down to beta male with her sweetness, how is she molding you not submissive male, that's important...

Tell me more about this. Cause I understand the general concept, but I'm just not sure how this would apply to her. Cause she almost never asks anything of me. She's not once asked for commitment. And so far, I've pretty much always been leading the relationship. When we're together, I'm almost always the one to decide what goes on, and she almost always complies. In fact, not only do I have a leadership position, but she always differs to me to make decisions. If anything, we have the opposite problem. Regardless of how warm and caring I act towards her, she's always completely uncomfortable stating her own desires and making any type of decision whatsoever. She says its because she feels "nervous" and that she's afraid she "might say or do something weird".

 

[kalyan]

Hey BBoy,
I think I know where you're coming from. "Pickup" wise, you don't really need this. Seeing her for, say, another 15 times will not add any value to you as a person; you're not going to get more confident or learn a whole lot more. And you're afraid this is a bad thing, because you don't want to get busy with something that's sort of distracting you from your goal.
But I'm going to give you a few ways I'd look at this, as I'm in a similar situation now:
1- you are still so young, and have a lot of time to pick up from where you stopped on picking up women... I mean, it's not a race in which you go: okay, i have only 5 months to be the sexiest man alive. You probably know that you're better than most guys your age, or even older than you, and even though you have ambitions to be amongst the best of the best, a small relationship of a few months wouldn't kill you. Which brings me to my next point:
2- even if you're going to date her, it doesn't mean you're going to marry her. The relationship is going to last for a few months, maybe a year or two, and then you'll be back on the market. Now an average person would have to be aware not to lose his edge, so when he's single again he won't find himself to be worse than he was before, but im sure you'd find a way to make up for this: you can always improve your fundamentals, always keep on approaching women, etc
3- it's a new experience for you. You said you haven't been in love yet... Why not try this? You'll learn something, in a different way than all those beta guys that get obsessed with their girls, because you KNOW that when she leaves you, you wouldn't be heartbroken for long periods of time.
4- and this is sort of something that makes me happy, but i dont know if it means much to you; this is a chance to give back to the female community! Yes, you don't owe anyone anything, but think of all the fuckups you've had: bad approaches, making girls feel uneasy due to bad LMR handling or saying something wrong whatever... You've probably made up for this by giving other girls the time of their life, but a big man always gives more than he receives. So take this as a big "donation" you are making to women by giving one of their members a chance to have an unforgettable journey with you.

 

[Drck]

When girls are being sweet and submissive, when they comply, we guys feel great. We are at the top of the world, we feel in love...

There is nothing wrong with it, it is natural, however you should beware because because your guards may go down especially if you still have mind frame of a Nice Guy. She may slowly (over period of time) shift to to Beta male mode by simply making you bend to the left and right, forward and backward as she wishes. She may not do it by logical and rational commands (e.g. do this or that, bring me this and so on...) but she may do it emotionally by e.g. making you feel bad for her...

For example, in more extreme situations, she may get depressed and/or anxious, she may get sick, she may find ways why she can't do this or that - and you feel bad and you start doing extra things for her... As the time goes, she may for instance quit her full time job and stop... Now you are a full time provider for her, she is at home (doing what???) while you are working your ass off... Not only that, her depression seems to be worsening, and you may feel that you are responsible for it...

This is just one of the examples, but it does happens often. As the time continues, she may even get colder and start pushing you away, e.g. less and less sex, she is more tired and exhausted, she is not in the mood, there are more and more fights and so on (does it ring a bell?)

She may start slowly "building case against you" - all the family and friends will now now that you are the one who is responsible for her entire misery... Again, that's a more extreme example. What is happening is, that you became too Betanized, she lost an interest in you, she has decided to dump you and now she is building the case against you... She may already have a guy(s) on the side as she started to look for replacement. Usually the guy is unaware, he just has no clue... If he is married and have children, "the hit" may come as a surprise: Now she is ready to leave, meaning you will be paying for her and her children...

May sound harsh, but it is not that uncommon here in USA, these days lots of girls prefer to be single moms, they get money from the father and from government, yet everybody still feel bad for them...

So simple test that you can administer to yourself is to find out how easy (or difficult) is it for you to walk away from her and never come back.. If it is fairly easy you are going good, you are on dominant position. If it is quite difficult to dump her, perhaps even impossible, BEWARE. You already are or you are getting close to being in submissive position... she has the upper hand in the relationship, she has most of the cards in her hands, while you have been Betanized... If you are in submissive position chances are HIGH that she's already lost most of the interest in you, and if she hasn't walk out on you she is looking for or simply waiting for a man who has a higher value than you...

 

[Bboy100]

@ Kaylan,

Actually, I've completely reversed my position at this point. I've come to the realization that it is very much possible to continue to improve as a man in a relationship. The reason most guys don't is because they get lazy. They have a girl, so they see no reason to continue being social, and otherwise keep themselves and their attractiveness in check. But the reality is, if I continue to have a self-improvement oriented mindset in a relationship, I think the relationship itself can make me even stronger than if I'm single. Hell, even in this open relationship, I've seen myself grow and learn in ways which may have taken years had I not been in it.

To be honest, at this point, the only thing holding me back is that I've not yet had sex with a really hot girl. Even though my lay count is in the low double digits, I still feel like I haven't been with a girl who's in the top 5-10% in terms of physical attractiveness. And on an emotional level, I feel like I'm missing out on something. Logically, I understand that after the first few times, the sex won't be all that different from being with a girl who's just "cute". But I still can't shake this feeling. And I feel like as long as I'm in a relationship, it's going to haunt me. I'm not really sure what to do about this.

Also, she seems to be ok with being in an open relationship. I talked to her about it, and she seems to sincerely be ok with me having sex with other women. I could be wrong, and she might not be telling me the truth. But I sincerely tried my best to get her to open up to me about how she feels and what she wants. I feel like there's really nothing I can do anymore. Because just assuming that she wants a relationship just because I would in her position is just me reflecting my values onto her, which is not a very good strategy.

@Drck,

Drck, I respect your posts quite a bit. And most all of your advice has been very solid. But to be honest, I've heard all this stuff before, and it seems like manosphere/pickup artist nonsense which originated from bitter men who don't want to accept responsability for their own weakness. So they blame it on some sort of psuedo "female psychology". You're an intelligent guy. Let me ask you this...has anything similar happened to YOU? Because if you've seen it happen to other guys, it doesn't count. You probably don't know all the intimate details of their relationship, and even if you talk to them about it, they may not be completely honest with you due to their own shame and inability to admit fault. It happens a lot.

I say this for two reasons:
1. I've seen no research based evidence to support any claims regarding "betaization" of males.
2. From a biological standpoint, this female strategy really seems to make no sense. It doesn't benefit anyone.

Basically, what betaization suggests is that the process is like this:
Step 1: Find strong male and mate with him, possibly conceiving offspring
Step 2: Make said strong male weak via tactics you explained (some of which are in of themselves damaging to the female, her children, and others who care for her. If we take your example, and assume that her depression is "psychological/biological", that would mean that its in her DNA to destroy her own mental health just to make her partner weaker than her. Said depression would also make it difficult to resume a normal life, and to rear her child if she has one).
Step 3: Take resources from said man via unfair social systems in place (this can't possibly be psychological/unconscious because said social systems did not exist when our brain evolved to be the way that it is). Leaving herself where she started, only slightly wealthier and potentially with a child who no longer has a father figure in his life.
Step 4: Rinse repeat.

I mean...I could explain to you why this is destructive to pretty much everyone involved. But I think its pretty obvious why this doesn't work. And if you look at the real world...this claim seems to be true. Single moms are not better off than they were before they got married. Sure, they have a little bit more money. But they also have a child! Which is a huge resource cost! Also, the child, the fact that she probably has baggage from her previous relationship or marriage and the fact that she is now an older women makes it 20x more difficult for her to find another high value man. Overall, she would have been much better off if she allowed the guy she had before to keep his autonomy thereby remaining a strong provider, partner, and father figure for her child.

So obviously, that's not what's happening. Here's what it really is:

The man started out high value. But one of his primary motivations for achieving such value is to find a high value mate. Once he finds said mate, he starts to believe that he has her "locked in". So he lets himself go. Whereas the women valued self-improvement and the things she has which make her attractive for their own sake. So she makes sure to retain them. Overtime, a huge discrepancy between the value of the man and the women begins to form. Causing the women to both disrespect and resent her man. The man begins to accept this behavior because he realizes that he's no longer capable of getting a women like her (this is part of assortive mating. We tend to pear up with people who are similar to us in "value". On the off chance that there is a discrepancy, the one who is lower value begins to tolerate behavior he/she normally wouldn't. Because he/she understands that their relationship partner is a catch and they are unlikely to find another one like this.) After enough time passes, the women begins to realize that either this man was never who she thought he was, or he let himself go. Either way, he no longer satisfies her, and she also knows that she's capable of acquiring someone better than him. So she leaves him.

Then this guy who got dumped goes on PUA forums and figures out a way to rationalize what happened to him. A bunch of other men who have had the same thing happen to them start to get behind him. Now he has a solid concept which he can spread around the community. He calls it "betaization"

Admittedly, regardless of which process you believe in, the solution is the same...make sure you remain attractive. And don't believe that just because she's "in a relationship" or "married" to you, you have her forever. There is no such thing as a permanently binding agreement. But I just think that the cynicism created by the concept of "betaization" makes men bitter and paints women as evil. For example, if I truly grow to believe in this concept, it would destroy a lot of the trust I have for my girl. Cause I'll always be on guard and label innocent behavior as attempts at making me weaker. It's also a great way to absolve ourselves of responsibility (i.e. "oh, I just got betaized. Not really that much I could have done!)". None of this is helpful

 

[kalyan]

Hell, even in this open relationship, I've seen myself grow and learn in ways which may have taken years had I not been in it.

Would appreciate a post on what you learned here

On what you said: if she's okay then fine, assume that she is. You cant keep on doing this and Ll the while being worried if she minds. Just continue to treat her special and keep on giving her happy moments and you'll be fine. There's no guarantee that she'll be 100% okay with this, all the time.
Sexwise yeah, i get you. I see where you're coming from. You probably have a few other things on your "pussy list" that you want to achieve... But you said you're in an open relationship, no? Also, even if you don't bang other women for months (while continuing to be a sexy person overall), you'll have lots of time to continue working on your sex goals later.

On the betaization topic: I really don't like to participate in long posts but i have an idea to add:
Betaization does exist. However, it's not just a simple thing that'd happen just by a chick pushing some buttons.. It would happen in only these two cases (or a combination of both):
- The guy got a chick quite out of his league (probably due to luck and circumstances rather than his skill). It could also be the case that she probably is in her league too, but he doesn't have much experience dating girls, so he falls in love quite blindly. After a certain point all the bad things BBoy mentioned happens (he starts to think he's got her forever and drops his value). In this case, the girl isn't really out to get the guy; she just saw some weaknesses she could exploit, and started exploiting these weaknesses more often, until she got bored and dumped him. This is quite unlikely to happen to people who actively seek to be in charge, or are naturally always in charge (think James Bond). So we're safe on this. However the second point is more interesting:
- The girl is a master of seduction: that is to say she is sort of a genius at the game, and no matter how much you learn, it's going to be hard for you to bag her. She understands that you like to dominate and lets you have that to start with, but then quickly starts to manipulate you (so yes, in this case she is really out to get you). There's many examples of women dominating men who are feared in the book "The art of seduction": Cleopatra is one.

 

[Drck]

Hi Bboy100,

Before I even start, you are correctly feeling overwhelmed and clueless. And YOU SHOULD BE, because that is a very good sign that you are thinking the right way...

In general, guys have problems and girls have problems too, nobody is perfect (duh)... As far as relationships, dating and mating, I am convinced that girls have a huge advantage: Their brain is simply hard wired for these things, they pick up clues that we guys are not even aware about, they understand simple key-words in situations where we guys need whole stories to "get it"...

---------------

I've heard all this stuff before, and it seems like manosphere/pickup artist nonsense which originated from bitter men who don't want to accept responsability for their own weakness.
>>>> Not so fast, lots of guys in Red Pill/Manosphere are accomplished and skillful in getting laid with many females. Many guys are also older, meaning they have real life experiences and lots of lays

So they blame it on some sort of psuedo "female psychology"
>>>> There is a difference between psychology and behavior. I wouldn't really call it female psychology, something that she wants to do intentionally. For example, I don't believe that such girl would intentionally want to hurt her current BF or Husband or any other guy. This is simply behavior of females, they just do it because they can, there is nothing wrong with it.... If you dig deeper into female's behavior, you can realize that females are basically always seeking higher value man... It is natural for them to be around the highest value man available, there is nothing mischievous in it...

Describing "High Value Male" would take many pages, but in simple words: Say she has a 5 potential guys that she can chose from. Who will she chose? It will be the guy who she assigns the highest value to. The Value depends on more factors, for example age: If she is young(er) she will be looking for experience, fun, sex without strings attached... If she is older (30+) she will be looking to settle down and have family, so at this time Provider may win over Alpha male. The situation is of course much more complicated, e.g. she will sell her innocence to the provider while she will (giving the chance) still fuck the Alpha male... Plus it all depends on environment she lives in, e.g. notice the raise of single moms in USA in the past 50 years... Single mom simply get money from government and/or from the father of that child - so get this, today's girl is free to fuck whoever she wants and whenever she wants, while she is getting paid for her child... This poor, innocent girl... Think I'm joking? Think again, or better: look around...

has anything similar happened to YOU?
>>>> Many times, many things happened in my personal life. If I can summarize, simply behaving like a Beta male or Nice Guy has always lead to failure with women. Even today I can clearly recognize that any Beta behavior is slowly but surly pushing girls away...

Example: You (or me) are on your own, no relationship. You learn and adapt Alpha male behavior, you don't give a damn, you say what you want, you don't care about most girls you interacts with, you are simply just being yourself (whatever that means) because you have nothing to lose. Then some girl steps into your life, and you select her as a potential GF and long term material...

At this time notice what will start changing. You will start shifting your frame into LTR, you will start changing your behavior (depending on experience, either slower or faster). You will start slowly adjusting your behavior to hers... Note the difference:

1) With girls that you don't perceive as LTR you are simply displaying Alpha behavior: You do your things no matter whether she (they) is around or not. You don't care whether you see her 5 times a week or once a year, you say whatever you want to say...
2) With girl(s) that you selected as LTR, suddenly you start carrying about what you are doing. You will start changing your behavior to more Beta. You will become more compliant with her demands. You will start helping her. You will start adjusting your behavior to hers. You will start thinking about her more and more... You will start investing into her more and more. You will start planning things for the future. You will quit some of your activities so you can be with her... You will want to be more with her. In simple words, you are becoming Betanized, and the situation usually magnifies when you get married because now it is official...

Say you compare your behavior today to your behavior just before you met her 6 months ago - your behavior and frame is just different than it was 6 months ago, it is much weaker, more Beta...

Now, here it is very important that you keep your frame as much as you can, especially if you have a good Alpha frame. Once you start changing your frame you will start creating lots of friction. The more Beta behavior you display, the more troubles you will have with this girl. If your frame collapses, and it can even take many years, she will get rid of you and she will find another guy who has "higher value" in her eyes...

Basically, if you want to be GOOD, and I mean GOOD with girls, you ALWAYS have to keep your frame, you always have to have some sort of a game. Because if you are not she may eventually get the upper hand in the relationship, and trust me bro - once she has the upper hand you are GONE...

But what does Gone mean? Gone means that you could be simply dumped and rejected, divorced. That's straight forward and simple. But it also means that she may still be married to you - but there is no sex or just minimal, plus she may fuck around with other guys... She simply lost all the respect for you that she had before, you don't mean anything for her anymore, she is just wiping her shoes on you... She is only using you as a source of comfort and financial support for her and HER children...

At this point you are nobody to her, just walking valet... She's got legal document (marriage) to pin you down, and you can bet that every scumbag lawyer will gladly take her couple of hundred dollars just to make it legal that from now on you will have to PAY and PAY...

But what are you now? Now nobody gives a damn about you. You are depressed, without money, without pussy, without friends, slave to the system PLUS feeling miserable about yourself, because you simply just don't understand what has actually happen... What happened is that you were too fucking Beta, that is what happened...

So the philosophical question is, whether getting into LTR even worth's it, mainly for reason that if you want to be GOOD and remain having the upper hand, you have to ACTIVELY keeping your frame, you have to ACTIVELY keep running your Game... You have to ACTIVELY manage the relationship, otherwise the chances are 50/50 that she will dump you... So, many guys here may teach you how to be good in managing relationships. Ok, whatever, great. I will simply ask you: Why bother with LTR? Why work so hard to keep ONE pussy around for so long? Why not get more pussy - with significantly less effort, without managing anything..?

But we don't care about philosophy, we care about living our lives. You have a heart, you want to be loved, you want to experience those great and sweet feelings, you want that girl to be so close to you emotionally, mentally and physically... That's normal, that's life, there is nothing wrong with this life, but beware brother - this is life of Beta guy, not life of Alpha man... True Alpha man has no interest in LRT because he can get new pussy within couple of days... So many guys in PUA and Seduction community PRETEND to be Alpha, however once they find the LTR girl they drop all the FAKE behavior and they fall into LT relationship... They were never even close to Alpha, they were only faking it so they can get laid...

See the Dilemma of these guys? They work so hard, they PRETEND so hard to be Alpha, just so they can find that one LTR pussy, and then keep that pussy around for years... One-itis, it is a disease... Compare this guy to TRUE Alpha - a man who simply doesn't give a fuck about any girl because he is not interested in any LTR and feelings of love at first place...

1. I've seen no research based evidence to support any claims regarding "betaization" of males.
>>>> We have to consider what is Beta and what is Alpha. Beta cares about girls, Beta wants LTR, Beta is seeking quality relationships, Beta wants great and sweet feelings of Love. True Alpha however doesn't give a damn, he will never end up in classical LTR, he just moves from one girl to another and could care less... There are also different hybrids between Alpha and Beta, but in general anything that requires EFFORT to keep that relationship going is just a Beta behavior for simple reason: True Alpha just doesn't give a fuck, he can walk away from that girl at any moment...

2. From a biological standpoint, this female strategy really seems to make no sense. It doesn't benefit anyone.
>>>> It is actually just normal female behavior, I wouldn't even call it strategy. She is naturally seeking a guy who can protect her, who can provide for her, who can give her excitement, who can take care of her and her children... Such guy would probably be a superhero, and as such he doesn't exist, thus for simplicity we have what we have, two simple groups: Beta and Alpha guys. Beta guys are usually those stable providers in her life... Alpha guys are those exciting guys who she can have fun and excitement, but at the same time she knows she won't be able to pin such guy down for LTR...

Think about above average good looking girl with average to above average intelligence living in USA. She always has lots of guys around. Just for example, say she has 10 guys at any given week or month, and those guys are all good. She is young, say 20-25 years old. Which of these guys will she sleep with? If she sleeps with all 10 she will feel like a slut. So she has to consider her options. Does she want LTR at this time? Probably not, she wants to be free for the next 10 years, have some fun... So she will go with the guy who just wants sex but is not looking for LTR... This guy is usually what we call the Alpha guy - lots of excitement, lots of girls available to him, no way he will settle down...

If 2 out of these 10 guys are not looking for LTR, she will chose one of them (or both). She will appreciate the other 8 guys who are offering her LTR and nice life, she will love them, she will want to keep them around - but she just doesn't want to settle down at this time, she is too young, she wants freedom like everybody else... So she will have to shift all 8 of them to Friend Zone, she has no other options. She doesn't really want to Reject them, the least thing she wants to do is to hurt them (unless she's a bitch) because she is really flattered by their attention and interest... but she really has no choice, all these 8 guys are hitting on her nonstop, she just can't sleep with all of them...

Shift 10-15 years to the future. She may have a child now, she is getting older, so what is she going to do? She MAY want a provider (though situation is apparently changing as well, see how many single moms are now around). Ideally she would want that exciting Alpha guy, but he may not be available for LTR. So she has to chose one of those 8 boys the she had to reject before... Those boys are usually those Beta guys who are interested in LTR... They will do anything to keep this sweet girl around, they want to be in love, they want to be loved... So she will chose the HIGHEST BID, the best of the best out of these 8 guys - a guy who is most exciting (relatively to Alpha), who has most $$$, the highest status, the best looks and so on... He will win the bid, he will now be a THE LUCKY GUY who is allowed to take care of her and have happy family with her, the sweet and innocent girl...

Or not, lol. See, the problem is, that we have to look at this girl without pink glasses of Beta male. This good looking girl was fucking with Alpha guys for couple of years, she has lots of miles on, and now she wants to get the left over Beta (who couldn't get laid) so she can use his resources... She will SELL him her innocence, she will PRETEND that she had minimal sexual encounters because she just CAN'T tell him the truth - which good guy would really want her after she was fucking around? She really CAN'T tell him, and he really DOESN'T want to know. He knows anyway that she was riding and sucking many cocks, but he doesn't want to know, if that make sense... All he wants is that sweet and cozy romantic relationship...

So, without pink glasses, this Beta guys is simply a fool. He is not that lucky. Red Pill or not, that is the reality we live in: After waiting years he finally got her. He got used material though, used and stretched pussy. She will not cook for him, she will not clean for him. Oh no, she is too good for that. She will not giving him BJ either. She may hire nanny because she knows she is useless as a mom. BTW, you will pay for the nanny too, as she will most likely work part time only, if at all. She may not care much about this lucky guyanyway, because in her eyes she is just DOWNGRADING from Alpha to Beta... Plus she may still fuck around - shhh, of course only behind his back - with other guys...

So what does this Lucky Guy have? Ok, some sex here and there, perhaps some good feelings she throws at him... But he will also risk Divorce, she may dump him with no regret anytime because he is already LOW value in her eyes... meaning 1/2 of HIS money will go to her, maybe even the whole house...

.... That's the PARADOX of today's society. You as a BETA can't get any pretty girl fuck with you, you are LOW value because you want LTR. You can settle down with lesser good looking girls, but you will not be really satisfied because you are DOWNGRADING from what you want, you are going for LOW value girl. The girl you REALLY want is most likely at least 2 numbers higher than your own value, meaning you just can't get her because you care too much about being with her, about locking her down to LTR...

But locking girl to LTR is just Beta, she could dump you, she WILL have the cards to dump you... Why? Well, because she can, because she has other options... Don't think she is different, 50% of girls are today single moms... In other words, you as a Beta can't simply win in this society, you have no options, you have no cards to play with. All you can do is wait for left overs, then if something goes wrong: pay, pay and pay... You are screwed, you are fucked, you are a slave to the system... You, 80% of you guys out there seeking Love, Commitment and Comfort of nice family...

---------------------

It is not really you, whether you are Beta or Alpha that is the problem... It is the whole society that overly protect women, that allows them to do whatever they want, that teaches us (guys) to behave like Beta Bitches from the very moment we stand on your own feet... This society became weak, many man-children are walking around, many pussy-men are in power and dictate the trend, many wussies are spreading their weak and feminist philosophies around...


Righteously you should be overwhelmed and clueless bro, because this current society is simply fucked up, and situation is not getting any better, not for Beta guys...

 

[kalyan]

But locking girl to LTR is just Beta, she could dump you, she WILL have the cards to dump you...

This seems to be the base of your arguement... My question is: why?
If you get in a relationship this doesn NOT necessarily mean you will start acting beta man!
She still has to pay for her shit.
She still doesnt get romantic dates or cute gifts (unless she gets you some as well).
You still fuck her like a god.
You still reply to her little games with your confidence.
You still handle social situations sexily if the need arises.
Heck, you even STILL approach girls right in front of her to show her you're the boss.
How does she have you by the balls now? She'll leave you, a value gold mine, for... Who?

Another thing: what if I'm the alpha-est motherfucker out there, and i have had sex with 2 different girls every week, for 3 years.... That's 1100 times... And I got BORED of it? What if I actually don't want sex now, and i want to settle down? You make it sound like you cant succeed if you commit... True, you can't succeed if you commit to a scumbag, or you commit not because you're in love but because you have no other options, but you genuinely can't have a happy relationship for a long time? What about the hundreds of millions of people who are happily married? Not one of those guys are safe, they all risk their wife walking out on them?
What about Neil Strauss? He's a beta now for getting married?

 

[Drck]

re:

Hi Kalyan,

I consider this as a discussion, not an argument, meaning I am not trying to convince you this way or another, or tell you what is good or bad. The concept of Alpha male that I'm writing about here represents a decent guy who is independent, who has his life to live, who is open minded, who is dominant and sexy, who's got options to chose from, yet who doesn't really seek any LTR because he doesn't see many benefits from it...

--------------------------

If you can still do all of that you wrote about and be in great relationship, good for you. But can you really? What good women would want to stay with you if you are hitting on other women in front of her and/or sleeping around?

Honestly, I don't know any good women who would tolerate that. There might be many women with low self esteem that they want that ONE particular guy, but the reality is that good looking and intelligent woman will simply move on...

But it all also depends on what you consider good or quality woman. No need to agree, but here is my general description of what I consider quality woman:

* She is good looking, skinny, takes care of herself, sweet, cute and so on. Duh
* Doesn't have to be, but all of those I know have good family background (e.g. come from stable marriage). She is quite close with her family and friends. I am mentioning this simply because girls from somehow broken families usually have their own issues
* Doesn't have to be, but she is mostly from higher middle class, meaning used to money, used to having good lifestyle, used to larger social circle
* Doesn't have to be, but usually religion is somehow important to her. By that I mean she usually has a mind set headed towards monogamy, marriage...
* Well educated, at least college degree if not more. That also comes with more independence and more self-reliance
* She is fairly independent, e.g. has the ability to make decent income and decide on her own what she wants to do in her life (whom she wants to be with). May sound silly, but many women in other countries don't have that privilege
* She is open minded and has choices. Usually can chose from many men. Meaning that if you think you are the only guy that she can chose you are living in an illusion, there are lots of great guys out there
* She is VERY careful with who she dates and especially who she sleeps around. She is not typical girl that you find in the bar. She does care a lot about having STDs, thus she is very picky who she sleeps with
* Chances are VERY high that she does not play any games. She will give you fair chance if you are attractive and show interest in her (if she's free). She will make it clear whether she is into you or not, she will not lead you on

The list can go on, but now you tell me, why would she be in relationship with a guy who hits on other girls in front of her and/or sleeps around? I'll tell you one thing, you hit on another women in front of girl like this and she is gone... She simply has high self esteem, she is more mature and is not playing games...

My point is, that quality girls are like quality guys. She doesn't NEED you, though she may WANT you, but that's a big difference. She is not looking for a Boss, she is looking for more equal partner. The girl you are describing rather NEEDS you because she is herself insecure and needs constant validation from you, the boss... Don't make me wrong, there are many girls like that - but are they what you consider quality girls...??

Another point is, sometimes we have to overcome our EGO. No matter what you know about seduction, there are many GREAT guys out there, and she knows that. They may not know much about seduction and dating but they do have good and manly frame. Let me tell you another thing, girls do have brains for relationships, if she is smart and have some experience with dating, she most likely knows that you are playing some game unless you are really good at hiding it. She may not tell you that but she could be quite amused by your effort and game.

Which basically means, that if she can chose between a guy who is doing everything the right way (e.g. is a player) and guy who has solid manly frame, she will most likely chose the later one. I've witnessed that several times, she simply went with simpler guy who was manly enough, versus knowledgeable seducer. IMO the reason might be, that she still wants to keep upper hand in managing the whole relationship. In other words, if you are too dominant, girl like this will exclude herself from the relationship because she feels that she has not much power...

------------------------

Back to the Alpha male though, here is your question:

"What about the hundreds of millions of people who are happily married?"
>>>> Are they? Some may be but the reality is that most are not. Look at high rate of divorces today, look at cheating statistics, look at raising number of single moms... It is different today than it used to be 20 years ago

Also, let's think rationally for one second: What you as a good and quality guy can GAIN out of marriage vs what she can GAIN?

Either way you look at it you can only lose in today's society, for example:

* You will most likely have to provide. Meaning you will have to pay, share your income with that girl and her children. Chances are that you will be making more money and work harder than she does. Compare to Alpha male, who works hard - and enjoys all of his money himself. Here you are losing money that you work hard for...

* Not always true, but you will most likely have to be monogamous, she will want commitment, meaning she will be constantly monitoring you whether you have another women. She may - and eventually most likely will - start limit you with sex. Even if not, she is just ONE girl that you are with. Compare to Alpha male, he is simply free, no effort to manage the relationship, no need to hide anything. Here you are losing in sex, and you are getting limited with number of partners...

* Should things go wrong, she will most likely ask for divorce (see statistics). Chances are that you will most likely lose custody of your children. You are the one who will most likely have to pay child support and alimony, not she. You may lose half of your saved money, your retirement. Never mind that divorce is emotionally wrecking, it all depends case by case but you may go through long period of time of fights, lawyers, separation and so on. Lots of time and money wasted. Compare to Alpha male, he simply doesn't have to deal with it at all. Here you are (again) losing money, you are getting emotionally wrecked, you will have limited access to see your children...

* Should things go right, will she clean? Cook? Take a good care of your children? Or are you going to "share" household work? It may not be important to you because you may not be familiar with this lifestyle, but in different cultures it is not uncommon that women take care of most household work while the guy is rather focused on his carreer and making money. In different cultures women still cook and clean, take a good care of children, and they take a great PRIDE in it. Here in USA chanes are that you will rather meet a girl with more feminist midset who wants to "share" because she is too focused on equality, and perhaps carreer... What are the chances you will find such girl in USA? Very limited, but I would be very happy if somebody proves me wrong...

-------------------------
"And I got BORED of it? "
>>>> IMO women are not here to somehow fulfill your life, or somehow eliminate your boredom. Women shouldn't be your purpose in life, they should be only SIDE effect of you living a good and quality life. Your life should be exciting, that's the main reason women should want to join you, and not the other way...

------------------------


So I have a simple question - What can a decent and good guy today gain from marriage or LTR...??? My personal opinion is that not much at all, such guy is simply loosing on all fronts, he is risking too much, he is investing too much - all that with minimal return... Too much headache, too much effort, not too much return, if any at all... Compare to Alpha male, who simply doesn't bother at all...

Prove me wrong, I get all that comfort and good feelings from having somebody sweet in your life, but what else is there...???

 

[kalyan]

You're right on the discussion thing, bad word choice on my side.

As for the hitting on other girls, I didn't mean it that way. I meant to say, you show her that you have the balls to go talk to her JUST for the same of showing her you can... Example:
You: those chicks look kindda cute
Her: oh yeah? Then go talk to them
You: you know you're daring the wrong person...
Hopefully you wouldn't even have to show her, but if you do, a 30 second interaction with the purpose of showing her that you have the balls is enough.
The definition of a high quality girl is spot on. Im sure you have spent some time to get to thatdegree of detail!
Another point: this is what i get from you :
- If you are so beta, you lose the girl cuz, well, of all the things you said
- if you are too dominating, you lose the girl cuz a good woman wouldn't put up with that
Both these are true, however, is there no middle line between these two at all? I mean come on, if it was as black and white as you're painting it, then i suppose you'd never see good quality girls who've been in relationships for 4-5 years, or married for 10+ and happy. (Note on increased divorces; its true that theres a lot of unhappy couples, and that could be largely due to a guy being betanized, or too dominant, like you said!)
Whether its a good idea (makes sense) for an alpha to get into an LTR is another topic (I don't agree that he has nothing to gain, but this is already way off the original topic), but you make it sound like it is impossible for an alpha, sexy man who knows his shit (be it naturally or through studying) to be in a happy relationship with a sexy woman.

 

[Bboy100]

I'm going to draw from my own experiance here...

When I first started out, casual sex was pretty exciting to me. It was noval. At the time, I was a virgin. So not only did I like it, but I also felt like I had to "catch up". Now, I'm getting laid by a new girl once every 1-1.5 months. Lately, its been even more often than that. That's not great but its by no means "beta". Regardless...casual sex is starting to lose its appeal. Sure, I can go on a date, and by the end of it, I'll have put my penis inside her vagina. Congratulations to me. Then what? All it is is hedonism. And if that's what you want, that's totally ok. I'm not shitting on short term relationships or hook ups. But for me personally, it's not all that attractive anymore. I only do it because I still have that fantasy about having sex with a "pefect 10" girl in terms of physical attractiveness. I'm sure once I've done that, I'll really have no desire for hook ups unless I have to put in no effort at all.

So what is attractive? Deep and meaningful connections with a girl who I actually like. As far as I know, its impossible to achieve this outside of some sort of longer relationship. Whether its an open relationship, or a traditional monogamous one, it doesn't matter. But in either case, there will be "relationship management" and there will be conflict, and there will be a need to deal with the women. For me, the trade off is worth it. Does this mean that I necessarily went from "alpha" (I've hooked up with a bunch of women this yr with no strings attached) to "beta" (now I'm in search of a relationship, which invariably means dealing with at least some bullshit)? And does this mean that if I go back to seeking only hook ups and short term relationships, I"ll revert back to being "alpha"? I think not. I am what I am regardless of my relationship goals.

Imo, the confusion here is that you're making the assumption that the purpose of any type of relationship with women is sex. If that's the way you view things, then yes, relationships really would make no sense for you. And I agree, you would have to be needy/scarce in options in order to commit to one particular girl. But if you desire not only sex, but other things as well, then this no longer applies.

Also, you say that any man who is in an LTR will necessarily lose his girl's respect at some point. Chase covers why this is false in depth:
https://www.girlschase.com/content/why-y ... manosphere
https://www.girlschase.com/content/7-rul ... a-provider

Honestly, I don't know any good women who would tolerate that. There might be many women with low self esteem that they want that ONE particular guy, but the reality is that good looking and intelligent woman will simply move on...

But it all also depends on what you consider good or quality woman. No need to agree, but here is my general description of what I consider quality woman:

* She is good looking, skinny, takes care of herself, sweet, cute and so on. Duh
* Doesn't have to be, but all of those I know have good family background (e.g. come from stable marriage). She is quite close with her family and friends. I am mentioning this simply because girls from somehow broken families usually have their own issues
* Doesn't have to be, but she is mostly from higher middle class, meaning used to money, used to having good lifestyle, used to larger social circle
* Doesn't have to be, but usually religion is somehow important to her. By that I mean she usually has a mind set headed towards monogamy, marriage...
* Well educated, at least college degree if not more. That also comes with more independence and more self-reliance
* She is fairly independent, e.g. has the ability to make decent income and decide on her own what she wants to do in her life (whom she wants to be with). May sound silly, but many women in other countries don't have that privilege
* She is open minded and has choices. Usually can chose from many men. Meaning that if you think you are the only guy that she can chose you are living in an illusion, there are lots of great guys out there
* She is VERY careful with who she dates and especially who she sleeps around. She is not typical girl that you find in the bar. She does care a lot about having STDs, thus she is very picky who she sleeps with
* Chances are VERY high that she does not play any games. She will give you fair chance if you are attractive and show interest in her (if she's free). She will make it clear whether she is into you or not, she will not lead you on

The list can go on, but now you tell me, why would she be in relationship with a guy who hits on other girls in front of her and/or sleeps around? I'll tell you one thing, you hit on another women in front of girl like this and she is gone... She simply has high self esteem, she is more mature and is not playing games...

My point is, that quality girls are like quality guys. She doesn't NEED you, though she may WANT you, but that's a big difference. She is not looking for a Boss, she is looking for more equal partner. The girl you are describing rather NEEDS you because she is herself insecure and needs constant validation from you, the boss... Don't make me wrong, there are many girls like that - but are they what you consider quality girls...??

I agree. I believe most girls would not put up with this. But what you need to understand is that this girl in a very transitional phase of her life. As of right now, she has literallly every single one of those qualities (reletive to other girls in our age group and mating market), other than the fact that she has no affiliation with religion. But neither do I. So I'm pretty happy with that.

HOWEVER, I don't think she understands her own value. Merely a yr ago, she was:
- Overweight
- Got no attention from guys bcause she was overweight
- Had no social circle
- Very low self-esteem
- Did nothing other than stay in her dorm and watch TV shows

This year has been one of huge growth for her. To be honest, she has imposter syndrome. She externally has a lot of great qualities, but internally, she has not yet adapted to it. So she values herself at lower than what she's actually worth. Admittedly, she does still have some self-esteem and anxiety issues. So she's not absolutely perfect. But she definitely seems to be better than 90% of the girls I'm exposed to.

NOTE: I am not in any way trying to keep it this way. In fact, I do everything I can to get her to see her own value. Even if that means our relationship will end one day. I have no intention of keeping her down for my own benefit. I want to see her succeed. THis is not because I'm overly "nice". Rather, I just genuinely care for her needs and well-being.

 

[Drck]

"Both these are true, however, is there no middle line between these two at all?"
>>>> That's the whole point. You have to sort of find the balance...

Usually as a single guy who studies Seduction or PUA, you sort of work hard to develop Alpha attitude because you know that Alpha guy is what you have to be in order to get girls... In simple words, you (ideally) develop Abundance Mentality, independence, you have goals to accomplish, you have friends, you get good with girls and so on...

Then you meet the girl that you consider for LTR. Such girl you consider quite attractive. If we can arbitrary compare values of you and the girl, this girl is at least at your level, but usually 1-2 points higher than you, if not more... If she is 1-2 or more points lower than your value, you are not that attracted to her... If she is at your level or say 1-2 points higher, she is quite attractive and yet still attainable to you... If you perceive her value more than say 3-4 points higher than you, she is very attractive but you simply know that you have no chance to be with this girl... If you have balls to go after her, chances are that you will try your best but she will reject you anyway... That is just reality, no need for tears...

Just say for silly example, that we are talking about Kim Kardashian. Ok, she is stupid, but as a female she is quite hot, most guys can only dream about her pussy. Her overall (perceived) value is say 5-6 points higher than the value of decent guy. She is simply hot, that's all she needs to be. So if you take 20 best seducers here from GC, which is close to top seducers in the entire world, can we say that all 20 would get to sleep with her because they have such a great skills? I don't think so. I'm pretty confident that she would reject majority of them. Which, at the same time, doesn't mean that she wouldn't sleep with some clueless average Joe she just met on the street, if that makes sense... It's not really the seducer's ego or skills that she is choosing, it's the guy she considers hot at that particular moment...

Anyway, so you really like this girl who is 1-2 points higher than you, and you want to be together... NOW observe what will start happening to you: you will slowly start adjusting yourself to her, you will want to spent more and more time with her, you will start sharing more with her, you will start paying in some form, you will start carrying more and more and so on...

I'm not saying that it is good or bad, I am saying that you will slowly become betanized, domesticated, soft(er) and meek(er)...

After some time you Alpha attitude will perish... You will be sharing decisions, you will be sharing money (usually guy works much harder and contributes more), ... You will be getting less and less sex, she will be getting more and more power in the relationship... If you don't have a strong frame, your frame can easily collapse, and if it collapses you are gone... Note that I am not talking about couple of weeks, that is easy, I am rather talking long months, and probably years...

Now, how to have a strong frame as a man, how to keep in charge?
1) You have to ACTIVELY work on it, you have to ACTIVELY manage the relationship, you have to ACTIVELY keep playing game, you have to ACTIVELY keep your value higher...
2) You have to be naturally dominant that this sort of frame is norm to you (unusual for guy who studies seduction)

So that's where the dilemma comes from. Chances are that you have to ACTIVELY manage that relationship. The more attractive the girl is, the harder you have to work to keep the relationship going... Remember, if she is good looking she has it very easy to exchange you for another guy and dump you, because she is simply pretty and thus she still getting hits from another guys... She is not stupid either, she will always consider going for a guy with higher value...

It is easier to manage girl who is not that attractive, because you simply don't care that much, you have doubt about being with her (read the first post above), she is not that attractive, and you can fairly easily walk away from her... On the other hand, you can't walk away so easy from girl who you perceive is 1-2 or more points higher than you, this one simply requires hard work to keep around...

And that's the whole point... Why work so hard to keep attractive girl around? Beta (Betanized) guy cares a lot about such girl, he is willing to work hard to keep this one girl around... He is basically working very hard on on attachment to one pussy, on One-itis, which is simply a relationship disease... One-itis destroys guys, One-itis destroys Alpha attitude...

On the other hand, Alpha guy simply doesn't give a damn, he just walks away from that girl... Don't make me wrong, walking away from hot pussy (such as say Kardashian) requires lots of determination, motivation and personal skills... The thing is, that Alpha guy is not determined to keep this one particular pussy around, he is determined to build his life, accomplish personal goals - and thus keeping ANY pussy around for longer time is simply not on his agenda...

In summary, Beta exerts lots of effort to keep that one pussy around, he is working hard on keeping the relationship balance, and the more effort he is exerting the more he is hurting himself because he is over-investing into that girl, he is working over-time on relationship management...
Alpha guy's focus is somewhere else. Chances are that he is also working hard, but just not on keeping one pussy around... True Alpha is free of dependency on pussy, and that is what - paradoxically - makes him so attractive to females...