She's hard.

[Drck]

In my opinion, analysis won't help you much. The way you describe her, she is socially smart and experienced (e.g guys are hitting on her all day long for the past 5-7 years). So, take your social skills and multiply them by factor of 10, that is approximately where she is. Just curious, how many girls were hitting on you daily for the past 20 years? Well, there you go, that is exactly what I'm talking about, imagine how she thinks if bunch of guys are after her on daily bases, bunch of guys are investing their effort and time to het her.

She has choices, lots of choices. If you "chase" her in any way, if you exert any effort to be with her, you'll just become part of big crowd. She knows she's the price, the way she influenced you she influenced many other guys. Make no mistake, she knows it very well, no matter how sweet, innocent and close to you she appears to be.

You might think that if you reverse this and stop chasing that she will change and start running after you, start chasing you. She might, but the reality is that most likely she won't. She still have lots of choices, many cards in her hands, she is on constant pedestal - all because of fucking beta males who will do anything to keep her attention.

She has feelings and she has logical mind. At the beginning, her feelings may overwhelm her logical mind - at first she might think very highly about you because she doesn't really know you well, but as the time goes she keeps adding more and more logic to that potential relationship. That is why guys have the most chances at the beginning, and as the time goes her excitement drops, expires. She might still feel quite attracted to you for long period of time, weeks even months, but now her logic starts kicking in. Logic builds a list of cons. She is comparing you to other potential mates (remember, there is bunch of them), she is considering all pros and cons with relationship with you, regardless whether she sees you provider or lover. So even though she might still have great feelings for you, now there is a big road block between you and her - her logic mind. And trust me, her mind can be very cold, freezing cold, merciless, no matter how cute she appears.

I don't know what can you do to get her. If you exert any energy to get her, it is chasing. Chasing doesn't work. Maybe you can try to "disappear" for several weeks/months so she wonders what has happened to that kinky professor, then when you meet her again - I'm sure by pure coincidence - you'll hit on her. You hit on her hard so her emotions scramble her logic mind (assuming that she will still have emotions for you, if not you will just look like a fool).

But all this is too much work, you shouldn't work that hard to get her. You are giving her too much value by working on to get her. You should stop worrying about her, and start worrying about you. Make a list of 5-7 potential mates in your mind, then move her her down from first to third position. Shuffle that list again, this time make her end up on fifth position. Stop analyzing her actions, it is pointless. Stop making plans or designing seduction patterns - she either goes with you or not, there is nothing else. Decrease her value, decrease her significance in your mind. What has she done to sleep with you? NOTHING. And you should do exactly the same. Hit on her and leave, see if she comes after you. Hit on her, watch what she says and watch her actions. If she says that she will show up but she doesn't, sorry to say - she is gone...

 

[Marty]

She still have lots of choices, many cards in her hands, she is on constant pedestal - all because of fucking beta males who will do anything to keep her attention.

Drck, have you read this?

Your Sexual Market Value: Who's Afraid of Desperate Men?

Much of his status is derived from his marriage and his sexual market value could take a plunge if his family life falls apart.

Amadeaus, this is debatable, in fact I think it cuts both ways.

Yes, I have actually heard women say things like "Forbidden fruit tastes sweeter" and I agree it can be the case, especially with this age-group of very young girls—20 to 23 or so, studying at university or in the very early years of their career (the phrase above came from a woman whom I knew when she was 21, although she didn't actually express it until a couple years later). This seems to happen when a highly sought-after, young girl with a lot of attention from needy men is in a rebellious phase and instead actively goes after the attached ones, I have seen it on multiple occasions. You can get stuff like thinly-veiled attempts to one-up or compete with the wife, disguised verbal attacks on her, hostile looks, etc.

On the other hand a slightly maturer lady (mid-late twenties) often seems to be skeptical of a man in a committed relationship, presumably because she subconsciously senses that he has given away his commitment too easily and is by implication less desirable (or at least less confident of his own desirability)—by pursuing a risk-averse approach he has subcommunicated a desire to settle for a safe option, which leaves open the question of why he needs that reassurance.

Not sure if my take is correct, but if so it would imply that Quicknick benefits from access to the younger age group (I assume he is talking undergraduates, say 19-21 or so).

 

[Chase]

Just jumping in quickly on this-

On the other hand a slightly maturer lady (mid-late twenties) often seems to be skeptical of a man in a committed relationship, presumably because she subconsciously senses that he has given away his commitment too easily and is by implication less desirable (or at least less confident of his own desirability)—by pursuing a risk-averse approach he has subcommunicated a desire to settle for a safe option, which leaves open the question of why he needs that reassurance.

Marty, yes, that's pretty common, but it's primarily because women at this age shift gears from "swing-my-hair-have-fun-do-whatever-I-want!" mode into "uh-oh-my-value's-going-down-time-to-wife-up" mode, and approach every reasonably attractive man from an unfamiliar-to-them position of nervousness and discomfort, with a "I wonder if he's The One" mentality that's new and somewhat alien to them. You have to make it explicitly clear from the very beginning that you are most definitely not boyfriend material to avoid having them think that you are, only to realize later that you're not (because you're "taken", or not hanging around long in their city/country, or don't do monogamy, etc.).

It's like applying for a job that you think is going to pay you $X per year, only to find out 45 minutes into your interview that the pay is actually 1/2 $X. Suddenly, it gets incredibly awkward for you, because you thought you were going for one thing when in fact that thing is off the table. Conversely, had you known it paid 1/2 $X from the beginning, you could decide if you wanted to try the job out anyway and use it as, say, a filler job while you look for something more permanent.

Generally speaking, for single women, an attached man is considered far more attractive. It's why even if you are single, you still want to be evasive about relationship status - telling women you're completely single is like telling them you don't do so hot with girls. And among very confident late-20s women, you will still see these girls' eyes light up around attached men, as these men seem higher value to them, and these women are convinced that they can get them from their women - they enjoy the competition and the conquest. Women less confident in their allure and ability to tempt men away from other women can auto-reject if you've let them think you might have a chance of being a boyfriend only for them to find out you're attached.

Chase

EDIT: Didn't weigh in on the rest of the thread since everyone else has it covered, but just wanted to put a note in here reiterating what Franco said - making girls fall in love in situations where you can't be their dream guys is not recommended. It can mess a girl up quite a bit, and karma - i.e., the vengeful, scorned woman looking to give you your comeuppance for leading her on and breaking her heart - can be a real bitch here, especially when you've got something to lose. Playing with sex is one thing, but playing with the emotions of someone who has leverage over you is like playing with fire while covered in gasoline. At some point a spark is going to fly, and then you're toast.

 

[Flames]

The only advise I'd give is that no matter what the situation be what you've always been.

If your cool and aloof style attracted her then do that, if your wild and craziness attracted her then use that. Women sometimes just give mixed signals when they're unsure. If you start act differently then it just makes them worse.

Self improvement is fine, but you won't get girls by constantly changing yourself to fit in with what you think they want.

And don't worry about loosing the odd one here and there.

 

[Quicknick]

J



Generally speaking, for single women, an attached man is considered far more attractive. It's why even if you are single, you still want to be evasive about relationship status - telling women you're completely single is like telling them you don't do so hot with girls. And among very confident late-20s women, you will still see these girls' eyes light up around attached men, as these men seem higher value to them, and these women are convinced that they can get them from their women - they enjoy the competition and the conquest. Women less confident in their allure and ability to tempt men away from other women can auto-reject if you've let them think you might have a chance of being a boyfriend only for them to find out you're attached.

Chase

She is in the "go for fun mode" has she's very social. But I think the fact i'm married and never the relationship material apart from being a very risky situation made her go in auto-rejection. I tried to stay cool but has she seems so independent that I feel I lost her. So considering all the information, mixed signals and results what would you do in my situation?

Edit: oh and all the girls teach are over 20.

 

[Marty]

Quicknick:

But I think the fact i'm married and never the relationship material apart from being a very risky situation made her go in auto-rejection.

I think it's not your relationship status, or your position, per se that is sending her into auto-rejection, but those things coupled with your lack of expeditiousness and conviction.

Chase discusses a concept known as "attainability" which I think is very important in your case. Here are a couple articles you may or may not have read yet which can function as a primer to the idea:

Secrets to Getting Girls: Staying Out of Auto-Rejection

Being a Challenge to Women (& REALLY Turning Them On)

-Marty

 

[Quicknick]

Well today was the first class. She was warm, polite but I could sense she wasn't flirting with me like before. At the same time she was texting someone often. I assume she's gone. I was also polite, but a bit cold and strictly professional. I guess it's time to next her and call it a day.

 

[Whizzy]

Well today was the first class. She was warm, polite but I could sense she wasn't flirting with me like before. At the same time she was texting someone often. I assume she's gone. I was also polite, but a bit cold and strictly professional. I guess it's time to next her and call it a day.

Live and learn right

 

[Quicknick]

Re: She's hard - Update

well It seems maybe i didn't lost her totally after all:

Some weeks ago talking through facebook I told her I made a different opinion of her. She asked me what was it, and I told her i wanted her alone with me to tell her.

She didn't come until last week. So, moved her within 10 minutes to some place quieter and we made out for a few minutes. Told her she was unexpectedly gentle and shy, to wish she agreed.

Then her friend came back and we split. Now, I kept my tactic of not beggining facebook conversations anymore because she never does it, but that means we only interact when we see each other. Yesterday for work reasons I was with her and her dependent friend almost all day. She touches me when she has the opportunity but they kept talking about their social rebel life of alcohol, parties and guys around them.

I'm still kind of confused with her because I realy can't figure out if she is afraid of getting into trouble or if I don't have value enough for her to invest a bit more.

She has a small allergic reaction in her skin and went to the hospital yesterday, should I ask if she's better or just leave it until next time i see her?

 

[Marty]

Quicknick:

She has a small allergic reaction in her skin and went to the hospital yesterday, should I ask if she's better or just leave it until next time i see her?

I think that might be giving away too much power, in your current role and status. Not sure, perhaps others will correct me that this form of condescension on the contrary enhances your power... stooping to her level to inquire about something of concern to her; but you have to ensure that this is how it's perceived, and not as you chasing her for sex.

Chase commented on one of my posts some time ago to discuss this subject. Have a little look and see what you think.

-Marty

 

[Quicknick]

Annd so I blew it. L ast
night i got drunk And i kissed her. She told me it Was to risky. Doing that In the midle of people who knew me. But She was so intimate to this new guy í just went insane, called her and kissed her. Then I just came home before í would see her making out with some random guy. Im going to see her tomorow. What to do? Don t want to look ridiculous . Please help.

 

[Drck]

You are in trouble. You haven't slept with her, yet you keep thinking about her for weeks, if not months, hoping that she will somehow turn around and change her mind... She might, but what is the likelihood? She is outgoing, can have fun with bunch of different guys every day, and most likely she's already shifted you into a "friend zone". In her mind you are a good backup, good orbital who is patiently waiting. What has she done for you to make it easy for you to seduce her? Nothing.

Two cent advice, easy to say difficult to do: pull back and change your focus on something or someone else. If she turns around and comes back to you, you have to be strong. You have to let her know that either sex or nothing, meaning no friendship, no platonic love, no dreaming or thinking about her, just cold rejection. She's never been rejected before, was she? In my opinion she is gone, but I could be wrong...

 

[Quicknick]

Well I was kind of drunk when I wrote that last post but I truly was in panic.

So let me tell you my adventurous night:
We were in a study trip and I was the teacher responsible for all the class. Her problematic friend decided she wanted to sleep that night and they would stay at the hotel witch was quite far away from the hotel from the rest of us. I told them with a smile "Sure, resting is very important if you need something just give me a call." and then started socializing in the bus, laughing, talking and deciding what the group would do. Made sure my fundamentals were a bit "bossy". She was quiet for the rest of the way.

Then we left them and hit the night clubs. Actually i was happy she wasn't there as I wanted to get wasted and to feel no pressure. Yet they came to our bar. I was already quite drunk. But the bad thing was they met this guy and brought him. Then, she started to be chatty only with him, being quite near him, laughing and he was clearly chasing her. So i was there looking at that. suddenly, I had only 3 choices: Doing nothing, staying there until something happening [kissing, she going out with him]; My self leaving [that she could relate to jealousy/bitterness,] or ... my last choice. Called her near me and kissing her. Witch I did. She responded but then pushed me away: "everyone is here!" In fact i didn't try to justify myself or apologize. We separated and I heard her talking to someone "i'll stay here with the 'new guy', my friend and the teacher". But then i decided i was making a fool of myself and went away.

So in the morning, I woke up thinking how ridiculous I had been... But then another feeling poped up: I had taken this beautiful hot girl from the other guy with a single gesture, taken her by my hand and kissed her 9 feet away of all the class, including a girl with close connection to my wife who was there to keep an eye on me, and no fucking one got a clue. Suddenly i felt like I had survived a plane crash. Totally invincible. Make no mistake what I did was in pure panic, but it was still damn bold, risky and stupid thing to do. And girls dig that. So i changed my attitude: Instead of feeling sorry and showing it being quiet and strange and downbeat I adopted the "I did it, it was crazy and that's what you get with me" attitude. So for all day I had a "Tom Cruise top gun smile" * on her: confident, funny and sociable. It kind of worked as she flirted, touched and stared at my quite a lot. I didn't say a word about it although she said a few times that she remembered everything about that night while smiling.

* that you can see from second 33 to 37 in this Clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUis9yny_lI

So I'm still sure she's out of my league. I know Chase doesn' t like the defeated attitude, but I must be realistic. I'm not young, god looking, atractive, tall, and availabe enough to compete with the dozens of guys of her busy social life. I hated the way it felt for that half an hour and I'm too proud to let me be completely tooled that way.

So I have a little plan for you to analyse:


1 - Telling her personally that I enjoyed that crazy, totaly unsafe moment.
2- changing immediately the tone by telling her "But... I own you an apologize. Puting myself in risk is one thing, putting you is more serious and I don't want that" hopefully she will get the image that I'm really nuts [she already has that image, she told me] and that I think she can't handle with it. She is very proud of being irreverent and radical, maybe that's a challenge.
3- Then I next her. Totally. She won't chase hard I'm sure, but if she does I'll have to figure out something to tell her so that she feels politely rejected. Because she always brags how popular she is.

In the end it's not about the girl anymore [though I "like" her because she's so challenging, interesting and hot]it's about getting a way out from a situation I can't win. With her it can go both ways: She wants me but is afraid and rationaly knows we can't be together, OR I can be just another challenge guy that she wants to get [the teacher ho-wo] into her feet." Can't figure out what it is and won't risk that i'm the second option.

So, for the ones who had the patience to read all this, what's your view?

 

[Drck]

What is it that you want from this relationship?

You showed boldness, which is great. Why don't you continue? Just for the sake of practicing I'd continue. Show ACTIONS, invite her someplace, just you and her. Push yourself, setup a date. She will have only two choices: either shows up or not. If she shows up you have a HIGH chance. If she doesn't she is gone, no matter how sweet she is about it and no matter what rational excuse she'll make. Either way you showed boldness, thus you didn't loose, she did. Remember, if she wants you she will do anything to meet you at the place of your choice, and if she really can't she will setup an alternative herself.

I'm not sure if I understand your 3 choices/plan correctly, why are you backing up? You were bold and you should not apologized for that. Show more boldness, stand your ground, don't back up. Let her decide the outcome, you just setup the date, otherwise She will think it is weak, awkward.

Don't apologize for your desire to have her, never...