Speed of Auto-Rejection

[Black]

For the last months, I've often been finding myself throwing girls right and left into auto-rejection.

One reason, I think, might be a cultural difference - girls here don't seem to expect that much of a challenge but the guy to lead (and, yes, chase a little more).
That's why guys with very low fundamentals, who never read this site or anything, just doggedly push for sex - and get it.
By flirting then being mysterious, unpredictable, zero compliance. . . well, they just hate my guts, fast.

Not moving fast is a huge mistake in any culture, thou. . . I'm guilty of this too above anything else.

But there's another, slightly different thing. . .

In 2013, I was still much more needy and insecure than I am now.
A girl would take the initiative to speak to me, ask me to hang out with her friends and I would comply and feel blessed.
In the second half of 2013 at least 4 girls went out of their way to try and make me their boyfriend.
Some of them took months of "nothing happening" to go sour.
Others, who went into auto rejection faster, had stuck their neck out a great deal.
I didn't even kiss in the whole of 2013. I just made a big deal of all this and didn't know what to choose.

Fast forward to the second half of 2014 and now.
I keep "rotating" girls trying to sift those that are willing to invest more.
I cut them off suddenly if I don't like what they say. If they make me wait I use the time to look for other girls.
The value/investment tap is closed to a drip.
My emotions are stable for the most part. I don't get crushes on anyone. I don't have stupid fantasies about being on a relationship.
I (mentally) scoff at people walking hand-in-hand at the campus doing everything together every single day.
I got laid, with different girls, in different situations. I haven't had the perfect pick-up but I noticed a few mechanisms.
I turn girls on with my stories and vibe. I love to get them all giddy and hitting/clutching my shoulder.
The catch is. . . for the most part, their attraction expires much faster and/or they go into auto-rejection much faster.

Last winter I met this girl in (the periphery of) social circle.
We played some drinking game with some guys, I kissed her on the cheek a few times (with bros cheering that I go for the mouth), nothing big but I had her add me to a messenger app.
That night when I walked away, she and her friend started shouting at me because they noticed she had had some problem adding me; I was drunk so I only understood this later.
After two weeks I ran into her friend, who added me.
Within a day she had forwarded my contact info to the previous girl, who in turn added me and tried to start a conversation three times or so.
Kind sweet smileys all over.
When we finally get talking she's immediately like "oh, I spent the entire day alone at home"
I blunder and try to build rapport on other things instead of pushing for a meet up.
That's it. The next time I tried talking to her (a week later) she cuts the conversation short.
I cut her off.
After months she participates in some social media bantering I was doing so I try to catch up with her.
She cuts me off even harder. Her signature is a bitter "My time is only for people who are truly worth it".

Similar story with a bunch of other girls.

One tried to soil my jacket, then went through each and every "like" she had given me on social media and deleted them, then deleted me as a friend, then told her friends some stuff. . . all I did was tease and frustrate her one day she suddenly decided to come looking for me at the bar.

I have a classmate, she has a boyfriend, I wanted her to friend-zone me and (maybe) introduce me to her other friends.
One day we had a bubble around us, us vs the world, she even started telling me the things she didn't find attractive about her boyfriend.
This was awesome pre-selection and other girls were very curious about us.
After that I tried to put my feet on the brake a little so to speak, avoided her a couple times. Again, I wanted to be her friend, nothing else.
After these emotional spikes she's gone cold and while I can still talk to her it's not the same.
I don't feel she wants to stay in touch and be my friend either. . .

I'm sure in 2013 my blunders were bigger, but girls seemed more forgiving.

__________________________

My question is:
What makes girls go into auto-rejection faster?
Can higher fundamentals or some aspects of game make this even worse?
How can some guys seem to keep flirting/bantering with the same girls over months without anything happening?
Is it even a question worth considering or is it better to just move fast when possible and just let que casualties be?

 

[ray_zorse]

I think you've pretty much answered your own question -- you're not being nice to them. I think to discuss attainability would be to overcomplicate matters, at the end of the day she has to feel you care whether she lives or dies, if she tries 3 times to start a conversation with you over a messaging app, and you ignore her, then what do you expect really?

I think you are taking "law of least effort" a bit too literally, it does not mean we just sit back and wait for the girls to fall into our lap, it means we put in the minimum effort we need to to get what we want. In this case you would like to have girls chasing you, so you have to go to every possible effort to reward her chasing. I can think of an example, a girl who would message me "goodnight Ray" at about 10pm most nights of the week (I hadn't laid her yet), I was careful to always reward her for this, usually same evening.

Another thing to keep in mind is rapport- and connection-building, if you see radeng's recent post on push/pull he emphasizes how you can be a complete dick and they will eat you up, provided you have built a connection as a foundation for it, which it sounds like you're not doing.

TBH you sound a bit overconfident, which is unattractive, if you are truly getting the great results you should be getting according to your self-description then let them speak for themselves, otherwise you may have to consider that you aren't yet as attractive as you potentially will become, and look at what holes in your game might be causing this?

Ray

Edit: I suppose that sounded a bit mean, but what I was getting at, was that if you truly have abundance then yeah it's no problem to just sit back and be uber-aloof and if she auto rejects, well, you didn't need her anyway -- but if you act uber-aloof to simulate abundance, and that costs you the lay, then I think you're basically just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Black]

What "great results" in what "self-description"? I never said I was getting "great results".
I'm getting some reactions, which we all know is not results.
Why would I waste my time lying on the internet about something like that? I might as well write an awesome LR that never happened.
. . .and, yes, I did bang a few girls. It is a slight improvement, yes. Who's saying that's "great results"?

Where did I say I *ignored* her three times?
Sometimes I just don't have my phone with me. I get back to them briefly when this happens.
I mentioned that to show how fast her interest level plummeted later - IMO when I failed to ask her out.

 

[Black]

Oh. . . I consider myself to have zero game.

Otherwise how could local guys with awful fundamentals get better results through traditional courtship?
My game has to be worse than rubbish. . . that's what this post is about.

Particulary, I do notice I have a huge problem - I said this sometime before - telling chasing behaviours, from behaviours to increase attainability and/or move things forward.

For example, let's take the rewarding investment point he brought up.
Girl contacts me just to say "good night" (has happened actually). . .
If I reply "Good night, beautiful" is that a good reward? If not, what is it?

_

Thanks for the distinction, also.
Seeing girls going cold makes me feel like they are also pissed off (because it's so blantant) but if I'm going to look at external facts only, I'd say I'm getting 80% ignored (this is me flirting and dropping for not knowing how to proceed in social circle) and 20% crazy reactions.

 

[Black]

Thanks again.

Well, I myself am not sure where I am on the nice-jerk spectrum. I think I'm inherently "nice", and maybe too nice in some cases but lacking reference points I might be trying to solve things by being unforgiving when it's not justified. In other words, I fear my current behaviour might be incoherent and all over the place. For example, I didn't know whether calling a girl "beautiful" over chat is chasey or not. I know I've had needy and chasing behaviours in the past - even without getting to the stereotype that appears in most articles about being "too nice".
Ironically, the local culture here (China) does expect guys to routinely contact the same girl, buy her stuff, etc. . . and a lot of guys get away with things I cringe at, but a lot also seem to go for boyfriend roles or (apparently) mess up expectations. It just goes to say I might still be too unattainable.

I do remember, back home, a friend telling me that, despite my looks, girls at clubs might approach me *less* because my build could seem intimidating (to them). This was in my early 20s, before I started hitting the gym more systematically, before I added a bit of facial hair to my look, before I worked on my body language to make it more dominant. Then back in 2012 I knew this guy who said his first impression of me was that I was some kind of tough guy who (probably) dominated girls all over.
Fast forward to here, "chubby and friendly" foreigners tell me things like how they got approached in the middle of the street, whereas, while I do get some approach invitations in some bars and clubs (very rarerly in day-game settings), it seems like I still get less. I also see lots of shy, scrawny and disheveld Asian guys with relatively "hot" girlfriends. So it's not like the fundamentals here are those of some upscale club in California or wherever. I probably can seem intimidating, but I can only theorize, not "feel" it.

So. . . simply being friends with girls has resulted in some girls eventually showing interest, in the past - but in 2013 and early 2014 I noticed a sticking point, probably because of Asian girls being more withdrawn: I would repeatedly meet up with a certain girl and have nothing happen, over, and over. . . I'd fumble and fail trying to lead or escalate somewhere, end up chasing. That's when I started being a dick and trying to set limits - if things are going nowhere, replace.
This way I got laid (after months!) - but with a girl I was almost going to ditch because I wasn't seeing the IOIs.

The other side of the coin is that I know girls in different social circles that could very possibly be attracted to me - but I don't know what's the best way to ask them out 1-on-1 and limit the reputational damage /awkwardness in case of rejection. I got burnt pretty bad back at uni.
Another thing about these last months vs 2013, and even 2014, is that now I don't normally have girls striking conversations on messenger apps to flirt and/or hint they want me to ask them out - not anymore.
Even from girls that seem to like flirting with me in person, it's radio silence.

 

[ray_zorse]

Saved by radeng, but actually I owe an apology, when I read your post properly I realized I was overstating things, and for some reason I thought your other posts (about social circle game, challenges etc) were also pointing to an overconfidence but when I also read those properly, that turned out to be not the case. So apologies Black, for the misunderstanding. As a matter of fact I'd be interested to hear more about game in China, I live in a kind of mini China (half my colleagues at the uni are Chinese international students, and many of the rest are Iranian for some reason that's unclear to me), and I'm not getting great results, have asked out a shitload of attractive Chinese students, but nothing much doing so far. I remember a post of Chase's saying something like, in conservative cultures your chase framing needs to be pretty gentle (along the lines of accusing them of boyfriend- or marriage-hunting rather than sexual eagerness)... and this may tie in with attainability. Maybe it's good to up the attainability a few notches for Chinese.
Ray

 

[Black]

Once again, game (or enough reference points), in China or elsewhere, is what I lack the most.

First thing, foreigners in mainland China get away with a lot I of things that could get them ostracized or even arrested in a place like the US.

So I'll go to the main general principle that seems to come up with every foreigner I know that's banging local girls by the dozen. . .

No matter how low fundamentals are, what they have in common: persistence, leading
All these guys push the envelope for sex and just let the girl say she's a good girl, traditional, or whatever she feels she needs to say. . .

Conspicuous consumption is also common here - particularly from local guys.

What I haven't seen or heard of is crazy PUA style mind games, negging, etc. . .
I'm not the only one who tried acting "funny" and had them take it at face value, confused, upset, etc. . .
I guess it also depends on how westernized they are.

. . .and from that comes what another thing:

Because of the big and fast changes their society is going through, because of the huge education/income disparities, because of the geographical size of the country and the population, with different regions having slightly different cultural backgrounds. . . it's not too practical to say "Chinese girls are like this and this is how you pick them up".

Right before coming to my current location I dated this girl twice. We went for lunch the first time and right after it seemed like she was going to follow me up to my room if I hadn't bid her goodbye. The next time I learned she was a virgin who celebrated her birthday by the lunar calendar; completely alien to the western hooking-up culture. Some time before, I once messaged her that I was going to a club, She said "be careful". Some of the parents of these girls, regardless to how open-minded the girls themselves are, will literally break down to tears if they find out their daughter (or son!) has been to a "nightclub" - because they understand it as "a place of prostitution and drugs decent people just don't go to". This girl, from a small town in the north, is bound to study in the US this year or next.

Fast forward a couple months. Through a friend I met these local girls at a bar. We played some drinking games. Then someone had the idea that every guy in the group (including me) should French kiss every other girl - we even took pictures at that. They also don't want to have anything to do with a local guy, just loathe them, and scoff at girls going on about wanting a serious commitment.

So very big differences. . . It's an opportunity to ask and deep-dive.

Other than this. The best thing is to ask an Australian guy who has reference points with the kind of girls that go study there.