FR Test or Genuinely Uninterested?

[Frost]

Hey guys, if you want the quick story jump to "The Approach". If you have some time read the whole thing

Last night I was at a bar with my friend, and we were sitting at the bar complaining that there were no girls there when a couple of girls entered the place and sat at a table so that they were giving us their backs/sides. One of them was really cute and the other was average.

So I told my friend I was going to approach. And he was like wait they're giving us their backs you can't just go there. Anyway we spent some time discussing ideas then he proposed we leave the place for a couple of minutes then go back in. After we went in I went to bathroom and after coming out the bar was getting very crowded, so my friend sat while I remained standing and I was about to go when I saw the cute girl go past us to the bathroom. I didn't think much of it, but still keeping the idea of approach invitations in mind, and when she came back she was standing at their table in a way that her side was facing me, so I was using my peripheral vision to check her out and see if she's looking my way while her friend was sitting by the wall texting. I figured that at least the cute one was looking for a guy from the way she was looking around the place.

Once again I decide to go for it when a guy from the table right next to them decides to talk to her. I couldn't see what happened but my friend told me that he talked to her for a few seconds and then turned back to his table, apparently rejected. Now this gave me pause, I started to overthink like I usually do even though I was outcome independent, but the anxiety came back. A minute later the girl goes past us again to where the bathroom is. This time I have to do something.

The Approach

After she came back, my friend runs into a guy he knows, and they start talking, and for a split second I felt my mind turning off and screaming go approach (I have been trying to get eye contact from her before approaching but I got nothing). So I immediately went to the girls and said hi with a small wave of my hand. The cute girl turned to me and said hi. She had the most neutral face I've ever seen. No smile or anything.

Me: How's your night going?
Her: pretty good
Me: Well I'm chris *extends hand*
Her: I'm xyz (but I couldn't hear over the music so I pulled her in to understand what she was saying. Same thing with the friend who couldn't be less excited if you gave her a million dollars)
Me: it's very crowded at the bar so I'm coming to sit with you
Her: I'm sorry but we're waiting for somebody
Me: ahh that's too bad. Well it was nice to meet you

And I went back to my friend, told him what happened. Few minutes later we left the place and went somewhere else. On the way back to the car, we passed in front of the first bar, and my friend took a look and told me they were still there alone. I did expect it to be honest.

Conclusion and Questions

First of all this is the first time I cold approach 2 girls in a bar like that. And even though I got rebuffed (it was a soft one) I didn't feel bad, I actually felt more alive because I made a move.

I'm sure there are a few things I did wrong with my approach. First I shouldn't have waited that long, second I should have persisted more, which brings me to my question:

The girl seemed genuinely uninterested (from her facial expression), but I can't shake the feeling that this was a test and that I could have persisted by saying something like "I'm not gonna be here for long anyway" and continue the conversation (like mystery's "I'll be here for a minute but then I have to get back to my friends") .
What do you think I should have done in this case?

 

[kalyan]

I think we share a bad beginner trait: we tend to look for a bad reaction from a girl, and based on that, just abort mission. It's happened to me many times... And usually, I personally don't abort because I feel humiliated, but rather I feel I don't know what to do.
Now, on whether it was a rejection or a test, I don't know, but I do know that it doesn't matter. You should persist in any case. If it were a rejection, you'd be definitely sure of this. Rebuff, you either win (get her) or lose (get rejected). What happened to you is sort of what it's like not even trying to answer a multiple choice question. You can guess instead, and you might get it right, but if you get it wrong, you get zero points, same as you get for leaving it unanswered; so try anyways!
As for how I'd deal with it, "I'll keep you company before your friend comes" would probably be my response (like, on the spot, this is what I thought). If she tells you no then she's either too shy or not into you, and you can walk away knowing you tried your absolute best. If it works, you can talk to them more and gauge your cute chick's interest level more properly.
On taking time for approach invitation: yeah, just approach. You told me yourself you were complaining there were a lack of girls, and you just got an opportunity... Go for it! You're not going to be picky and try to conserve approach energy if you don't have many outlets to spend this energy anyways!

 

[Frost]

I think we share a bad beginner trait: we tend to look for a bad reaction from a girl, and based on that, just abort mission. It's happened to me many times... And usually, I personally don't abort because I feel humiliated, but rather I feel I don't know what to do.

You're right, part of the reason I didn't persist was that in the moment, I couldn't find something good to say. A couple of minutes later I automatically started to get ideas about how I could have handled this better. I guess it's a beginner thing, and pressure too, just like if you have a test or an exam and there's a question you can't answer, but as soon as you leave the room the answer pops in your head.

Now, on whether it was a rejection or a test, I don't know, but I do know that it doesn't matter. You should persist in any case. If it were a rejection, you'd be definitely sure of this. Rebuff, you either win (get her) or lose (get rejected). What happened to you is sort of what it's like not even trying to answer a multiple choice question. You can guess instead, and you might get it right, but if you get it wrong, you get zero points, same as you get for leaving it unanswered; so try anyways!
As for how I'd deal with it, "I'll keep you company before your friend comes" would probably be my response (like, on the spot, this is what I thought). If she tells you no then she's either too shy or not into you, and you can walk away knowing you tried your absolute best. If it works, you can talk to them more and gauge your cute chick's interest level more properly.
On taking time for approach invitation: yeah, just approach. You told me yourself you were complaining there were a lack of girls, and you just got an opportunity... Go for it! You're not going to be picky and try to conserve approach energy if you don't have many outlets to spend this energy anyways!

This is very good advice, I'll keep it in mind. Thank you

 

[Bboy100]

A common myth in the pickup community is that "everything is a test"

She says she has a BF? Bullshit, she's testing me.
She gives me all possible indicators of disinterest? Nope. Must be a test.
She says she has a meeting in 10 minutes and can't chat? HA not falling for that one!
She looks genuinely creeped out and uncomfortable? Nice test brah!

Personally, I don't even subscribe to the concept of "tests". Most of the time, what the PUA community calls a "test" is a girl who's flirting with you. It has no malicious intent nor does it have a hidden agenda. We just tend to over analyze it. But regardless of how you frame it, a good rule of thumb is: if her resistance is not playful, flirty or appropriate given the context, its not a test. She really means what she's saying. So in this case, it doesn't sound like she was saying it in a playful way. She was being totally serious. So leave her alone and go talk to someone else.

...As for what you could have done differently? Well, since this is your first ever cold approach, I would guess that your fundamentals were off and your opener wasn't very strong. But tbh, I wouldn't even worry about "what to do to keep the interaction going" yet. Right now, you should just go out with the goal of talking to new girls until you no longer have AA. Take baby steps man.

Also, it sounds like you think that you necessarily did something wrong. Dude...no matter how smooth you are, not every girl is going to be in to you. Especially at bars where most girls are pretty guarded, and you have no good way of displaying your attractiveness. So my point is, just because she wasn't interested doesn't mean you did anything bad. Just means you should objectively examine the interaction to see if you can spot any mistakes and learn from them. If you can't, then move on to the next one. Its that simple.

P.S.
I highly highly recommend you scrap everything you've learned from mystery and just stick with GC. Not only is Mystery manipulative, but his stuff only works on a certain type of girl (namely girls with emotional issues. It just so happens that there are a lot of them in Hollywood which is where he developed his game). High quality or even just...normal women will see right through his bullshit. I would explain more, but that would take a long ass post in of itself. But if you're interested, I would read models by Mark Manson. He explains it in detail.

 

[Frost]

A common myth in the pickup community is that "everything is a test"

She says she has a BF? Bullshit, she's testing me.
She gives me all possible indicators of disinterest? Nope. Must be a test.
She says she has a meeting in 10 minutes and can't chat? HA not falling for that one!
She looks genuinely creeped out and uncomfortable? Nice test brah!

Personally, I don't even subscribe to the concept of "tests". Most of the time, what the PUA community calls a "test" is a girl who's flirting with you. It has no malicious intent nor does it have a hidden agenda. We just tend to over analyze it. But regardless of how you frame it, a good rule of thumb is: if her resistance is not playful, flirty or appropriate given the context, its not a test. She really means what she's saying. So in this case, it doesn't sound like she was saying it in a playful way. She was being totally serious. So leave her alone and go talk to someone else.

...As for what you could have done differently? Well, since this is your first ever cold approach, I would guess that your fundamentals were off and your opener wasn't very strong. But tbh, I wouldn't even worry about "what to do to keep the interaction going" yet. Right now, you should just go out with the goal of talking to new girls until you no longer have AA. Take baby steps man.

Also, it sounds like you think that you necessarily did something wrong. Dude...no matter how smooth you are, not every girl is going to be in to you. Especially at bars where most girls are pretty guarded, and you have no good way of displaying your attractiveness. So my point is, just because she wasn't interested doesn't mean you did anything bad. Just means you should objectively examine the interaction to see if you can spot any mistakes and learn from them. If you can't, then move on to the next one. Its that simple.

P.S.
I highly highly recommend you scrap everything you've learned from mystery and just stick with GC. Not only is Mystery manipulative, but his stuff only works on a certain type of girl (namely girls with emotional issues. It just so happens that there are a lot of them in Hollywood which is where he developed his game). High quality or even just...normal women will see right through his bullshit. I would explain more, but that would take a long ass post in of itself. But if you're interested, I would read models by Mark Manson. He explains it in detail.

Thanks for the answer Bboy!

About the tests, I too see them as an attempt to flirt, but also as a defense mechanism for girls, like the autopilot reponse. Of course she's not being intentionally malicious or anything like that, but if a girl gets approached by lots of guys, most of them are average and she may not be interested in them, so out of habit she would develop like a usual go-to response for this kind of situations. But when a guy is able to bust through her automatic reponse, that would certainly catch her interest and get her attracted.

The idea that everything is a test is realistically not exactly true, but it's a good attitude for beginners, just like assuming attraction, so that we work more instead of analyzing every situation and ending up not making any move and running away at the slightest complication.

About my approach, I can tell you that my fundamentals still need a lot of work, my question was more oriented towards any ideas for a better way to make this particular approach. To be honest I just went in and said what was on my mind, and I think that's how it should be (of course with practice what's on my mind gets better).

You do have a point when you said that it sounds like I think I did something wrong. Even though I know that it's not necessarily true, I tend to get carried in that direction.

P.S.
I'm actually not into the mystery method. The use a lot of tricks, canned lines and silly stuff that I think are not right for me at least. I know that from reading "The Game" so that's why I mentioned it.

Thanks again for your answer

 

[Bboy100]

About the tests, I too see them as an attempt to flirt, but also as a defense mechanism for girls, like the autopilot reponse. Of course she's not being intentionally malicious or anything like that, but if a girl gets approached by lots of guys, most of them are average and she may not be interested in them, so out of habit she would develop like a usual go-to response for this kind of situations. But when a guy is able to bust through her automatic reponse, that would certainly catch her interest and get her attracted.

First of all, the PUA community exaggerates just how often girls are approached by strangers. I know a few legit HOT women who almost NEVER get hit on by strangers outside of club/bar contexts. Usually, they just meet men through social circle like everyone else. As such, your point about being approached by lots of men is completely invalid outside of a bar or club.

As for the rest of it...well listen dude. If you want to adopt a combative "you vs her" frame like that, then go for it. But imo, a women rarely "tests" a man. Like I said before, its usually just harmless flirting and nothing more. Sure, it happens. Women really do test men sometimes. But its an exception and not the norm. The way I see it, 90% of the cases which we call "passing tests" are actually situations in which she simply found out new information about you and decided to change her response/reaction to you accordingly. She wasn't digging or probing for that information. The interaction naturally revealed it to her.

To illustrate, lets take an example of a women who might default to rejecting any man who approaches her. If you were to come up to her, I wouldn't view her attempted rejection as a test. Rather, I would say that she really did intend to reject you. But then when you treat the rejection like its silly, or even make a joke about it and she cracks up, she warms up to you. This is because she has acquired new information (namely the fact that you don't take this whole thing too seriously and you made her laugh, which means you're probably a cool guy). She didn't put up any type of facade or test on purpose. Admittedly, you would be right to say that regardless of which mindset you adopt, there is almost no difference in the external actions you would take. But this distinction is still important. Because the difference in mentality will bleed into the way you interact with women in general. One breeds distrust and competition and trying to "one up" each other. The other is a demonstration of compassion and empathy towards her perspective.

The idea that everything is a test is realistically not exactly true, but it's a good attitude for beginners, just like assuming attraction, so that we work more instead of analyzing every situation and ending up not making any move and running away at the slightest complication.

This doesn't make sense to me. Assuming attraction is totally different from treating everything like a test. Treating everything like a test will cause you to come off as annoying and uncaliberated. It'll also waste a lot of your time and cause lots of unnecessary emotional pain. Assuming attraction will help to develop confidence and inspire you to take more action. Those two things seem completely unrelated to me.

 

[Frost]

Radeng thanks for your interesting perspective.

To illustrate, lets take an example of a women who might default to rejecting any man who approaches her. If you were to come up to her, I wouldn't view her attempted rejection as a test. Rather, I would say that she really did intend to reject you. But then when you treat the rejection like its silly, or even make a joke about it and she cracks up, she warms up to you. This is because she has acquired new information (namely the fact that you don't take this whole thing too seriously and you made her laugh, which means you're probably a cool guy). She didn't put up any type of facade or test on purpose. Admittedly, you would be right to say that regardless of which mindset you adopt, there is almost no difference in the external actions you would take. But this distinction is still important. Because the difference in mentality will bleed into the way you interact with women in general. One breeds distrust and competition and trying to "one up" each other. The other is a demonstration of compassion and empathy towards her perspective.

Bboy I can see why you don't like the idea of tests. After all the name implies a competition of some sort, and you're right in a way, but although I call them tests, I think they are a test from the man's perspective not the woman's. Like you said in the example, if this woman is by default rejecting every man who approaches her, we need to consider 2 cases: she either is or isn't available (looking for a guy). If she's not available, then her reaction to your approach is totally normal, and maybe in the best case she would warm up a bit but would still be unavailable. If she is available, she's probably waiting for a cute guy to approach her (and if someone catches her attention she would probably throw him an approach invitation), and then I, the average looking guy, approach her. Her initial and natural reaction would be to reject me, most likely because she's waiting for someone better, but I persist and treat her rejection like it's silly and she warms up to me and I end up sealing the deal with her. If I left after the inital rejection I would have wasted a potential hookup with this girl. This is the "test" aspect of it; it's a test for me, but not entirely set by her, after all like you said, it was her default option and based on additional information she changed her reaction. So same idea, different name maybe.

About the flirting tests, they "test" your ability to flirt and be witty and dominant. If she says something in a flirty way and I act like a nice guy and agree with everything instead of busting her balls in a flirty and playful manner then I have failed. I agree that it's not an actual test because this is the natural way to flirt, but the nice guy programming that a lot of us have makes us move away from our instincts and act in a way to make everyone happy. And if you think about it, most if not all of the guys who want to learn how to become better with women fit in this category.

So to wrap up, is the girl actually testing guys (and keeping score)? Not much. But tests are more like challenges or obstacles or whatever you want to call them that you have to jump over and move around to keep going with the girl. When it comes to flirting, the PUA community treats women's attempts to flirt as tests because for the average nice guy, his natural response wouldn't cut it, so call it a test and give him the cheat sheet on how to pass it.

 

[kalyan]

I'd like to add my take on the whole "tests" issue. I think we all are the same- or similar- things.
Girls aren't testing you in the sense that they are legitimately setting up situations in which they see how you react: she is not consciously thinking "this guy's cute, is he as good as he looks?" Or "this guy's not cute, but he seems to have balls. Let's see if his balls are big enough to make up for his lack of looks" (At least, most girls don't, as bboy said). What they do is,react like they feel is natural for them, which is reject if you're very awkward, rebuff if you're somewhere in between (and they're undecided), and give you varying degrees of acceptance depending on how open they are to being approached/ your skill/ environmental factors... But it's all natural for her; she's not planning, or actively testing you. However it's safe to say that if you do manage to turn things around, you really did pass a test: you were able to turn things around and get a positive outcome.
Us guys do the same. I'm going to give an exaggerated example to make my point very clear: imagine meeting a guy for the very first time, asking him "how are you?" And instead of a normal "good" or "bad, i missed my train/ have a headache " he starts wining about how bad he feels because he feels unfairly treated/ annoyed at something... So if anyone asks your opinion on this guy, you'll tell him he's not cool- technically, he doesnt pass your (very easy) test of being a fun person to be around, even though you didn't consciously pose this test- you didn't ask him this question to actually see if he's competant enough to handle it correctly. Of course, our "tests" are usually more complex than this: we judge people based on whether they are punctual, or respectful, or hygienic for example, and based on that decide whether we want to be friends with them or not, the same way a girl decides whether she'll be yours based on how you respond to her initial rejection, your ability to lead, make her comfortable, ect... But yeah, it's not a well defined formula: some people you meet are hygienic, punctual, respectful, but there's something about them you don't like, so you dismiss him... Same with girls