The Deep Truth About Frames & Frame Control

[King]

Hey all, something I've been pondering a lot lately and noticing in the real world is maintaining a frame and receiving a set of behaviors back from other people, based on the frame that has been set.

To actually set a frame and follow the behaviors/attitudes that match the frame to stay "congruent" is actually one of the biggest things in game and goes very deep.

The fact is setting a frame requires you to be the person that is aligned with those behaviors. Otherwise its harder to maintain those behaviors as they are not genuine and its pretty "try hard" and exhausting to try and be someone we are not by trying to forcefully implement them in a non-natural way into our interactions. Not just in pick-up but also in life overall.

I know this is sort of obvious to a lot especially the veterans who've already reshaped their behaviors through years of practice and refinement.

But me being me as a lot of you know - have studied so much theory - to go out in field is to truly train ones intuitive capacities that allow us to behave correctly in the moment when needed. Its a deep realization I'm having rather than just "going through the motions," which is still very powerful.

I think this is my "real biggest sticking point" as in field or in the real world my natural behavior is kind of a bit too friendly and as some of the forum members have said "polite." I have noticed that I am genuinely keeping a positive, joking/ jolly, fun loving energy, that I think comes off a bit too "nice" and actually holds no authority or persuasion power coming off as too much of the "nice guy."

When I try to use pick-up techs I start getting super nervous because its not really me and feels like a form of imposter syndrome. However at the same time I KNOW I need to change, not just for pick-up but for life in general, with friends, family, colleagues as I feel I actually don't get much respect from anyone, being the hugely fun, friendly dork of a friend that I am. When I try to show my intellectual side on various topics, I'm not taken very seriously. Obviously this can have its plus points but I'm not very pleased with my current results.

I'm writing to you all and having a logical conversation about something again that is "obvious" to many, but for me this is a sub conscious level lesson that is properly beginning to click.

Perhaps the real breakthrough for me is that as the new set of behaviors will change life for me and as it stands the brain doesn't like change, getting acclimatized to a new set of behaviors from all people may be daunting to my inner core, but it is something that needs to be done for me to level up life in general.

To a certain degree I know this post is a bunch of rambling, but what are everyone's thoughts on this whole idea and what kinds of experiences have you all had? I feel like I can anticipate many of the answers, but still would like to hear peoples thinking.

Either way this realization has been a massive breakthrough in many different ways outside of pick-up as well.

Thanks for reading

- King

 

[Jan]

When I try to use pick-up techs I start getting super nervous because its not really me and feels like a form of imposter syndrome.

It has to FEEL LIKE NOT ME. How could it feel LIKE YOU, if you've never done this before.

Just keep in mind that this has nothing with to do with pick up per se. Regardless of the source of new behaviors, verbals, if they have not been part of you, they will feel weird, anxious or uncomfortable at first. Simply, because they are new to your nervous system, so the nervous system will react with stress as a signalling mechanism, "Watch out, something new. Something potentially dangerous." This part of the nervous system doesn't know if the new behavior/verbal will help you get closer to your goals. It just sees something new, and it sees something new, it will generate stress hormones in your body to make you more alert.

Best way is to accept that as fact of being a human, expect stress/nervousness, go through the new of behaviors several times and observe if it's bringing you results. If it's bringing you results, keep doing it. Nervousness will fade away. If it doesn't bring you results, you will have to change strategy and do it again.

I'm afraid you won't hear what you were wishing to hear. There are no shortcuts. You just need to go discomfort. Like in gym. No pain, no gain. Or... "No pain, no game "

 

[ulrich]

The human mind is a capricious tool.
It is stubborn and doesn’t like quick changes.

Yeah, changing of paradigms takes time… sometimes you know exactly what is the right thing to do and how to manage a certain tricky social event but your “congruency” doesn’t allow you to go all in.
That is normal.

Some big changes in your personality and your outlook in life depend much on you feeding your mind with evidence that the world works in a different way.
Try something different, get different results and your brain will start seeing the pattern.

Let me tell you of an example.
I’ve been in sales for 10 years but the first 4 years of my career, I cut my teeth selling a corporate product that was not particularly successful.
We had a couple of companies investing heavily on selling this product (which paid me a very good salary) but sales were really scarce.
As a result, I internalized the idea that sales requires TONS of follow up, patience and a lot of convincing.
Then, later, I switched industries and tried different products and I couldn’t believe how easy and fast people will pay tenths of thousands of dollars with minimum convincing when they were buying something they need/truly want.
It was day and night… to go from selling only with maximum effort to selling constantly and effortlessly.
And it took my mind something to understand and accept it.

 

[King]

It has to FEEL LIKE NOT ME. How could it feel LIKE YOU, if you've never done this before.

Just keep in mind that this has nothing with to do with pick up per se. Regardless of the source of new behaviors, verbals, if they have not been part of you, they will feel weird, anxious or uncomfortable at first. Simply, because they are new to your nervous system, so the nervous system will react with stress as a signalling mechanism, "Watch out, something new. Something potentially dangerous." This part of the nervous system doesn't know if the new behavior/verbal will help you get closer to your goals. It just sees something new, and it sees something new, it will generate stress hormones in your body to make you more alert.

Best way is to accept that as fact of being a human, expect stress/nervousness, go through the new of behaviors several times and observe if it's bringing you results. If it's bringing you results, keep doing it. Nervousness will fade away. If it doesn't bring you results, you will have to change strategy and do it again.

Wow thank you for the reply, this is superb stuff bro! This legit spoke to me, exactly what my thoughts were. Another thing I've had to truly internalize. Only so much learning can happen without doing "the actual activity that gets you the result." Doing it will fundamentally change who you are as a person. This is where one truly evolves, and it can only happen true the hard work, something I need to accept and get with the program on.

Your reply was like a solid recap of a ton of personal development and growth psychology lessons. Thanks for that.

Best way is to accept that as fact of being a human, expect stress/nervousness, go through the new of behaviors several times and observe if it's bringing you results. If it's bringing you results, keep doing it. Nervousness will fade away. If it doesn't bring you results, you will have to change strategy and do it again.

Legit made that internal shift recently myself! I stopped looking for the easy way to success and look for the real hard path towards it which will consist of facing uncomfortable challenges and that's okay. This is true growth and progress.

I'm afraid you won't hear what you were wishing to hear. There are no shortcuts. You just need to go discomfort. Like in gym. No pain, no gain. Or... "No pain, no game "

And yes this part I anticipated to be the true solution of it all. Thanks for reiterating.

 

[King]

The human mind is a capricious tool.
It is stubborn and doesn’t like quick changes.

Yeah, changing of paradigms takes time… sometimes you know exactly what is the right thing to do and how to manage a certain tricky social event but your “congruency” doesn’t allow you to go all in.
That is normal.

Some big changes in your personality and your outlook in life depend much on you feeding your mind with evidence that the world works in a different way.
Try something different, get different results and your brain will start seeing the pattern.

yeah After dealing with the same situations over and over again my brain clicked into thinking and realizing that there are only so many variables and those anxious/nervous emotions become not as daunting the more I tried it over and over again. Its the same with good emotions - experience too many good things and the dopamine you get from it burns out faster and you like that thing a little less/ get bored with it.

Even for me, sometimes I leave things off for later because - (I'm too tired/ I won't perform well/ say the right thing etc (Things I say to myself but now I'm realizing I shouldn't as I type this reply out) But actually I realized that even without a solid pre planned idea, when its time for me to perform in the moment all the intuitive energies I have come to the surface and I perform the way I need to based on the amount of reference experience points. - kind of like this reply I'm writing to you right now. I was thinking "oh no I need more to think or I'm too tired I don't want to give a not very well thought out reply"- but actually all the creative juices and ideas I have stored in my mind came out and actually my reply to you is better than I had envisioned earlier - LOL

Perhaps I just need to give myself a chance when opportunities present themselves more often

Let me tell you of an example.
I’ve been in sales for 10 years but the first 4 years of my career, I cut my teeth selling a corporate product that was not particularly successful.
We had a couple of companies investing heavily on selling this product (which paid me a very good salary) but sales were really scarce.
As a result, I internalized the idea that sales requires TONS of follow up, patience and a lot of convincing.
Then, later, I switched industries and tried different products and I couldn’t believe how easy and fast people will pay tenths of thousands of dollars with minimum convincing when they were buying something they need/truly want.
It was day and night… to go from selling only with maximum effort to selling constantly and effortlessly.
And it took my mind something to understand and accept it.

Like this whole thing has loosened a lot of this dense heavy energy I was holding onto and is legit giving me an identity shift. My energy levels are rising and things that seemed so daunting in the past, seem a lot easier now.

When the energy has loosened, its so much more relaxing to flow out different behaviors. Its very interesting.

its like a sudden sub - conscious click as the realization happens in an instant after years of dealing/working with it, and of course dealing with multiple variables in that field. This is where and when people become legends. Eventually our reservoir of talent becomes overfilled and we start seeing our desired result come to fruition

This is a really big post for me so thanks for your reply and sharing your story to help me learn/think more and bounce more ideas with y'all!

 

[Chase]

@King,

Unless you’ve been doing a thing — or something close to that thing — your entire life, it will feel alien when you’re new to it. Sign up for a tennis class or a snowboarding class never having touched a tennis racket or a snowboard before, and also not having played any adjacent sports (baseball, surfing, skiing, etc.). It will feel extremely alien, and you will feel like it is not something you should even be doing. But keep going back and practicing and it will start to feel less alien and more familiar. Stick with it long enough to get good and it will begin to feel second nature.

Most guys who find pickup abandon it because of this “feels too alien” phenomenon. They haven’t spent their lives approaching strangers, building rapid connections, directing conversations, inviting people to do things, getting compliance, and making moves. It all feels really weird.

So most of them rapidly quit and return to what they were doing before, the thing that felt “more natural”: sitting around passively waiting for some girl to fall into their lives, pining away after that one girl they’ve known N years, hoping she breaks up with her boyfriend soon, hoping that this time she recognizes how awesome they are and decides to date them.

One way to gauge how likely a man is to be successful in various aspects of his life is to ask how willing he is to do uncomfortable things. The more willing he is to accept discomfort, then keep going back and doing it till the uncomfortable and alien becomes comfortable and familiar, the more likely he is to succeed across a variety of domains.

Another way to think about it: use a pickup technique 20 times and it won’t feel so alien. Use it 100 times and it’ll feel pretty familiar. Use it 500 times and it’s just a part of what you do. It’ll be hard to imagine yourself NOT using it at that point.

Chase

 

[Rakehell]

I actually think a big part of frame control is not saying things that are obviously incongruent/hold no relevance to you.

Or that are easily contradicted by your real beliefs somewhere down the line.

I hate to lie, because they add up and will be very hard to remember if they compound.

So in the same way I wouldn’t frame myself as something that obviously contrasts what I am in a negative way, or brings attention to a favorable quality that I may not have or cannot convey. Unless I mean for it to be that way.

So for example I wouldn’t give a girl the impression that I’d kick a guy’s ass for talking badly to her, if i’m obviously a physically weak person.

The frame wasn’t necessary and now it’s working against you.

For starters she wouldn’t buy it, and second you bring something to the forefront of her mind that may not have been there. She never thought about you in that scenario, but now she’s sizing you up for it unfavorably.

I guess I see it like the picture you paint of yourself. What one person likes may not be what the next one does. You control the narrative of your presentation by making tweaks in how you communicate with them. In a way that’s favorable with what you’re trying to achieve.

Part of that is not shooting yourself in the foot by painting a picture of yourself they can’t relate to/ or you cannot relate to.

Depth in the things you convey, and being able to go into detail if needed are very important to me.

 

[King]

Unless you’ve been doing a thing — or something close to that thing — your entire life, it will feel alien when you’re new to it. Sign up for a tennis class or a snowboarding class never having touched a tennis racket or a snowboard before, and also not having played any adjacent sports (baseball, surfing, skiing, etc.). It will feel extremely alien, and you will feel like it is not something you should even be doing. But keep going back and practicing and it will start to feel less alien and more familiar. Stick with it long enough to get good and it will begin to feel second nature.

Most guys who find pickup abandon it because of this “feels too alien” phenomenon. They haven’t spent their lives approaching strangers, building rapid connections, directing conversations, inviting people to do things, getting compliance, and making moves. It all feels really weird.

So most of them rapidly quit and return to what they were doing before, the thing that felt “more natural”: sitting around passively waiting for some girl to fall into their lives, pining away after that one girl they’ve known N years, hoping she breaks up with her boyfriend soon, hoping that this time she recognizes how awesome they are and decides to date them.

One way to gauge how likely a man is to be successful in various aspects of his life is to ask how willing he is to do uncomfortable things. The more willing he is to accept discomfort, then keep going back and doing it till the uncomfortable and alien becomes comfortable and familiar, the more likely he is to succeed across a variety of domains.

Another way to think about it: use a pickup technique 20 times and it won’t feel so alien. Use it 100 times and it’ll feel pretty familiar. Use it 500 times and it’s just a part of what you do. It’ll be hard to imagine yourself NOT using it at that point.

Love it! Thanks for the reply. I've noticed that the real element one must truly take care of is the emotionally being stifled aspect of it. Once that's taken care of the rest is easy and all a matter of putting in the reps.

One way to gauge how likely a man is to be successful in various aspects of his life is to ask how willing he is to do uncomfortable things. The more willing he is to accept discomfort, then keep going back and doing it till the uncomfortable and alien becomes comfortable and familiar, the more likely he is to succeed across a variety of domains.

I would say to do this quicker and just get with it. Otherwise from personal experience.. man times just gettin wasted, and the results still not attained.

So most of them rapidly quit and return to what they were doing before, the thing that felt “more natural”: sitting around passively waiting for some girl to fall into their lives,

I'm guilty of falling back into this state many times and I've got to accept that things truly can be as simple as, either you got it or you don't. Its really not that complicated - emotions are the only things that complicate it.

This thread has helped me level up in multiple ways, more deep breakthroughs!

Thanks for chiming in bro

 

[King]

I actually think a big part of frame control is not saying things that are obviously incongruent/hold no relevance to you.

Or that are easily contradicted by your real beliefs somewhere down the line.

I hate to lie, because they add up and will be very hard to remember if they compound.

So in the same way I wouldn’t frame myself as something that obviously contrasts what I am in a negative way, or brings attention to a favorable quality that I may not have or cannot convey. Unless I mean for it to be that way.

So for example I wouldn’t give a girl the impression that I’d kick a guy’s ass for talking badly to her, if i’m obviously a physically weak person.

The frame wasn’t necessary and now it’s working against you.

For starters she wouldn’t buy it, and second you bring something to the forefront of her mind that may not have been there. She never thought about you in that scenario, but now she’s sizing you up for it unfavorably.

I guess I see it like the picture you paint of yourself. What one person likes may not be what the next one does. You control the narrative of your presentation by making tweaks in how you communicate with them. In a way that’s favorable with what you’re trying to achieve.

Part of that is not shooting yourself in the foot by painting a picture of yourself they can’t relate to/ or you cannot relate to.

Depth in the things you convey, and being able to go into detail if needed are very important to me.

Deep insight! Thanks for sharing bro.

I completely understand where you’re coming from as I recently started doing a lot of work in sales.

There are specific parameters to follow when being persuasive. A fat chunk of it comes from how you present yourself and interact in the conversation.

I think you had an old post.. something along the the lines of “frame control is like being water” (don’t rmbr the exact title). Essentially one must understand the unique mental and emotional state other people are in/can be put into and adapt/act accordingly. The more reps I put into my work the more I realize “painting a picture” that is optimal is very crucial.

As such knowing what to say and how to behave in the moment gives us a much higher likelihood of closing the deal