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Health  The issue with overtraining

Ross

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Not sure how much this thread will be used on this website, but I decided to put it up for the benefit anyways.

Overtraining is defined as a physical, behavioral, and emotional condition that occurs when the volume and intensity of an individual's exercise exceeds their recovery capacity. I find issue with this word because it often leads to inept use of the word. I also find that there are better words for explaining the phenomenon known as overtraining.

My issue with the word of overtraining is that it is frequently defined as working too hard. If you do a hard biceps workout for 3 days a week, people will commonly refer to it as overtraining. The truth is, as the original definition implies, overtraining arrives because of a lack of recovery. Calling things like this overtraining gives people an excuse to stop training as hard as they normally would. They are limited by overtraining, as they believe that it will hinder results in any physical capacity.

In order to combat people using overtraining as a means to limit themselves, I have used the phrase "under-recovering" to define what overtraining is supposed to be. Under-recovering suggests that one is not recovering enough from their workouts before they engage in another workout. It doesn't suggest that one is training too hard. It promotes faster recovery; as opposed to easier training.

If you are experiencing under-recovering, then you need to focus on improving recovery between workouts. Below I have detailed out the best recovery methods that I have gotten my hands on:

- Getting proper Slow wave sleep (SWS).
: I cannot advocate this one enough. Slow wave sleep is fundamental in ensuring recovery. The best way to get SWS is to go to bed early, usually 2 hours after the sun goes down. I realize that for the normal person using GC, they want to have a night-life. I focus exclusively on day game because optimal training is much more important to me. If you want to have a night-life and still get enough SWS, I recommend using approximately 0.25mg of Melatonin before going to sleep whenever you stay out late. A small dosage of melatonin encourages your body that it is the beginning of the night, which is when SWS pressure is at it's highest. Don't believe me? Take a look at this graph of a device measuring sleep: http://www.polyphasicsociety.com/wp-con ... detail.png

- Getting proper Nutrition
: There are a lot of things said about nutrition. For a general guideline, be sure to eat vegetables, some fruit, and foods high in magnesium, zinc, and vitamin E to ensure proper nutrition for optimal recovery. Also remember to get a healthy supply of lipids, also known as fats.

- Properly Warming-Up, Cooling Down, and PNF Stretching
: Warming-Up - Warming up is important to get the blood flowing and prevent injuries. All you need to do to warm up is literally warm up the body. Jog for 5 minutes before engaging in exercise to prevent injury and get the blood flowing so that nutrients are forced into your muscles. Also give the weights a warm-up set on your first exercise, where you use light weight to engage the fibers and lubricate the joints.
: Cooling Down - Cooling Down is as important as warming-up in eliminating delayed onset muscle soreness. To cool down, hop/light jog for a couple minutes, followed by walking.
: PNF Stretching - Stretching should be done after the cool down, and is essentially part of the cool down. At this point, while your muscles are warmed up, stretch them while providing mild resistance. An example of this is when you cross your arm across your body, you use your other arm to stretch it farther than you normally could. Do this while letting go every 3 seconds to try and move farther than you could without using your arm to push the other one farther, and then re-engage and repeat.

- Using other techniques
: Contrast Showering - When taking a shower, spend 5 minutes on a warm setting, followed by 5 minutes of a cold setting. The colder you can go, the better.
: Deep Tissue Massages - These can go a long way towards speeding up recovery. I aim to get one done every weekend to ensure optimal recovery, but getting them done once a month can also go a very long way in speeding up recovery.
:Salt Bath - Include Epsom Salt, Sea Salts, and Aromatherapy for a relaxing bath. I don't have access to taking a bath each night, but as soon as I have access to a bathtub I am going to aim to take these each night.

There you have it. You should be recovering in no time at all. If you follow most of these, you should be able to recover respective muscle groups within 2 days if you are a beginner. If you are more advanced in hypertrophy training it may take slightly longer. I currently work out 6 days a week, 3-5 times a day. This is a bit extreme, but I am stimulating a lot of muscle fibers without going to failure in order to ensure that I am able to spend a lot of time working on a lot of different skills needed for the decathlon. The most important thing to do is listen to your body. If you experience the many symptoms of under-recovering, aim to maximize recovery more efficiently.
 

The Tool

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Indeed, overtraining is a big deal when I was running marathons (2 years ago) I was doing 15 miles a day along with weight lifting 4 days a week. Got to the point where I was so sluggish at work they sent me home, made me realize what I was doing. Rest Days are important my friends. (p.s Now I just lift. Cardio? you mean when I do more than 1 rep?)
 

Franco

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Ross, Tool,

I just read an article recently linked to me by a friend who is a competitive body-builder and fitness-oriented guy. Although it pertains to women and weight/muscle, I thought it was something that both of you may or may not find interesting:

Why Women Should Not Run

I've recently been encouraging any women I'm dating who like to run a lot to stop and try yoga instead. It's a win-win situation for both of us... and especially those delicious yoga pants. ;)

Cheers,

Franco
 

Ross

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The Tool said:
Indeed, overtraining is a big deal when I was running marathons (2 years ago) I was doing 15 miles a day along with weight lifting 4 days a week. Got to the point where I was so sluggish at work they sent me home, made me realize what I was doing. Rest Days are important my friends. (p.s Now I just lift. Cardio? you mean when I do more than 1 rep?)

Did you read the thread? I usually don't like to point things like this out, but you disregarded the content and discussion of this post and instead continued to point out all of your achievements and accomplishments. I was advocating against using overtraining in the exact format that you placed in your reply.


I just read an article recently linked to me by a friend who is a competitive body-builder and fitness-oriented guy. Although it pertains to women and weight/muscle, I thought it was something that both of you may or may not find interesting:

Why Women Should Not Run

I've recently been encouraging any women I'm dating who like to run a lot to stop and try yoga instead. It's a win-win situation for both of us... and especially those delicious yoga pants. ;)

Yeah, steady-state cardio isn't going to do you much favors. I used to competitively run long-distances, and I can tell you that the guys and girls on our team had a lot of problems by doing unnecessary extra mileage. Yoga is actually as much of a steady state interaction as cardio is. The beneficiary to doing Yoga is to increase flexibility and elasticity, but it is still a form of steady-state cardio, and can even be as intense as such. I'd say there are just as many overweight women doing Yoga as there are running, if not more. And they still don't get skinny, yet Yoga costs a few thousand a year.

While I say all this and agree that steady-state cardio can be harmful, I do encourage aerobic development. High intensity aerobic development lasting over a brief period of 10 minutes or so isn't going to propagate thyroid issues. The typical slowing down of the heart-beat and metabolism that is associated with long distance running won't happen when you are doing high quality workouts. So, instead of running for an hour or two at a pace that you can sustain easily, run 2 miles as fast as you possibly can. This will not slow down your metabolism or encourage muscle mass loss.

If I were to tell women what the ideal body type to train for in order to shred fat and look sexy, I would tell them to do a combination of powerlifting, anaerobic exercise, and aerobic exercise.

Example of a hurdler from Australia:

cm-50043-0511be3c613a8a.jpeg


Example of a tennis player from Russia:

243.jpg


Immaculate bodies. So if you want to help a girl learn how to lose fat/keep in shape, tell her to engage in hard exercises, not easy ones that she can and will spend 2 hours doing.
 

Franco

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Yeah, steady-state cardio isn't going to do you much favors. I used to competitively run long-distances, and I can tell you that the guys and girls on our team had a lot of problems by doing unnecessary extra mileage. Yoga is actually as much of a steady state interaction as cardio is. The beneficiary to doing Yoga is to increase flexibility and elasticity, but it is still a form of steady-state cardio, and can even be as intense as such. I'd say there are just as many overweight women doing Yoga as there are running, if not more. And they still don't get skinny, yet Yoga costs a few thousand a year.

While I say all this and agree that steady-state cardio can be harmful, I do encourage aerobic development. High intensity aerobic development lasting over a brief period of 10 minutes or so isn't going to propagate thyroid issues. The typical slowing down of the heart-beat and metabolism that is associated with long distance running won't happen when you are doing high quality workouts. So, instead of running for an hour or two at a pace that you can sustain easily, run 2 miles as fast as you possibly can. This will not slow down your metabolism or encourage muscle mass loss.

Excellent points here, Ross. And it is true that neither hours of cardio nor yoga will "truly" get a girl an immaculate body. However, yoga does work the central "core" muscles of the body which can help women work toward a flatter stomach. It's not the top solution, but I agree that it is certainly better than jogging/running for miles on end at a stress-free pace.

If I were to tell women what the ideal body type to train for in order to shred fat and look sexy, I would tell them to do a combination of powerlifting, anaerobic exercise, and aerobic exercise.

This would certainly be ideal. I wish I could convince all women to engage in these types of activites, not just for the sake of their looks, but for the sake of their health as well.

The problem with getting women to do these types of exercises is that they are very intense on both the body and the mind, and usually only athletes (or athletic-minded women) are the types who will engage in high-intensity activities -- hence the photos of the women above being competitive athletes. Lots of women who aren't athletes will engage in yoga or running because it is just as much of a stress-relieving and psychologically relaxing activity as it is a workout. It's kind of their "escape" from all of the pressures of the world where they can keep their mind at rest, so convincing women to suddenly start stressing their bodies out on a regular basis when it hasn't been something they've regularly done their entire life can be a difficult task, if not an impossible one.

Of course, the solution to finding women who will engage in these activities is just to date athletes in the first place. They will likely be able to maintain the sexy physiques that are pictured above. =)

- Franco
 

Ross

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However, yoga does work the central "core" muscles of the body which can help women work toward a flatter stomach.

Yeah, yoga works the core muscles more anaerobically than running does, that's for sure. I still find it lacking the proper component for all around fitness.

It's kind of their "escape" from all of the pressures of the world where they can keep their mind at rest, so convincing women to suddenly start stressing their bodies out on a regular basis when it hasn't been something they've regularly done their entire life can be a difficult task, if not an impossible one.

Ah; hence the original post referring to the capacity of overtraining as under-recovering. I don't want women to stress out their bodies utterly and completely on a regular basis like many men do to put on muscle. I'm not going to even attempt to venture into the zone of critiquing bodybuilders; they've fought that battle many, many times and know how to dismiss it without a second thought.

At first, starting off with a small stimulus would be preferred, and then gradually work them up where they are only experiencing mild, short lasting delayed onset muscle soreness. It's pretty easy to incorporate this into fun, social activities; play volleyball at the beach with some friends (aerobic, anaerobic, and power movements) or learn to do some fancy gymnastic tricks. I'm not telling women to do any more than I'd tell guys to do. Put on some functional muscle that isn't too much, keep on a healthy layer of fat. If you or anyone else is looking for some more thoughts/perspectives, I'm hoping to share a lot of the tips and tricks that I have learned in an all-encompassing blog which will most likely be free. Development has started with my free time, but the actual vision is still in the works.
 

Franco

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If you or anyone else is looking for some more thoughts/perspectives, I'm hoping to share a lot of the tips and tricks that I have learned in an all-encompassing blog which will most likely be free. Development has started with my free time, but the actual vision is still in the works.

Would love to see it, Ross! Feel free to share the link to it on the boards when it's ready, if you'd like to.

Cheers,

Franco
 

Good Vibes

Cro-Magnon Man
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IMO women who pump iron like a man and do some cardio and without using drugs have the best bodies. They avoid the skinny fat look.

I think circuit rooms are good for both men and women when you want to do cardio instead of treadmill and bikes. Unfortunately the gyms I've been to over the last few years seem to not have them anymore.

As far as overtraining goes FFS don't do so many sets per body part. I can do a chest workout in 20 minutes and it will be productive.
 

Ross

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As far as overtraining goes FFS don't do so many sets per body part. I can do a chest workout in 20 minutes and it will be productive.

I somewhat agree here. Again, it's all about perspective.

- If you train with weights for the chest for 20 minutes only once a week w/ 8 reps per set and go to absolute failure with short rest periods, you will gain decent size
:But, to optimize the training, if you are following this, it'd probably be wise to do this workout twice per week for maximum size.
- If you train with weights for the chest for 60 minutes w/ 8 reps per set and go to absolute failure with longer rest periods, you will gain a lot of size
:But, you will need a longer time to recover. For the most advanced, this can mean 5 days of rest.

Now, which of the above would be better? That's very difficult to say. Option number 1 has a greater tendency towards using aerobic thresholds as opposed to anaerobic thresholds during the actual training. But option 2 has a greater tendency to make use of aerobic thresholds at the end of the workout, with a greater emphasis on anaerobic during the beginning.

Then, when you look at training, guys use a lot of variety. Arnold Schwarzenegger used to train his chest 3 times a week using a total of around 25 minutes of work on the chest, and his rest periods were about 45 seconds (he did a back exercise during this time). Arnold is known as the king of mass. While it is controversial, he states that his only use of steroids was during his cutting period before competitions to keep on mass.

And in most literature today, people make use of the second option. I honestly believe that this makes them stronger while putting on size. Fast Glycotic (FG) and Fast-Oxidative Glycotic (FOG) energy systems are what determine muscle tissue getting packed on. FG has a lower potential for mass increase, but a high potential for strength(powerlifting) increases. FOG has a higher potential for mass increase, but not much potential for strength increases. The FOG systems get worked more when rest intervals are curtailed, while the FG systems need a longer recovery period. When you rest longer, you automatically make use of more FG energy systems. When rest is very short, FOG systems are used.

So, the conclusion is, the option for training within a 25 minute period makes use of increasing mass as long as progressive overload principles are in place. The option for training within a 60 minute period every 5 days or so makes use of increasing mass and strength.
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

Knight

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Nice points Ross.
Where would you guys recommend someone begin at for increasing my energy expenditure? I'm not interested in muscle gain at the moment but would like to know what you guys think on starting to lose some unneeded fat.

Thanks.
 

Ross

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Knight said:
Nice points Ross.
Where would you guys recommend someone begin at for increasing my energy expenditure? I'm not interested in muscle gain at the moment but would like to know what you guys think on starting to lose some unneeded fat.

Thanks.

1) Get your diet right. Diet is the only thing that can transform your body into having less fat. If you are eating less, you won't gain muscle because not eating enough calories to gain weight means you won't gain weight.
2) Exercise using a lot of variety. This is to preserve current muscle mass while losing fat.

Sample program:

Monday: Heavy Squats 3 reps 5 sets (2 mins rest in between sets) & Bodyweight lunges 15 reps, 5 sets (45 seconds rest in between sets)
Tuesday: 1 min hard running, 1 min easy running x5 (Do a warm-up jog of 5 minutes before this)
Wednesday: Push-ups 5 sets, do 2 less reps than max each set & Pull-ups 3 sets, do 1-2 less reps than max each set
Thursday: Core circuit (google one, there's thousands out there)
Friday: 60m sprints 2 sets 2 reps, 2 min rest in between reps and 4 min rest in between sets
Saturday: Great sex
Sunday: Repeat wednesday

Each workout takes between 15 and 20 minutes, so you can easily fit it into any schedule.
 

Knight

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Ross said:
Knight said:
Nice points Ross.
Where would you guys recommend someone begin at for increasing my energy expenditure? I'm not interested in muscle gain at the moment but would like to know what you guys think on starting to lose some unneeded fat.

Thanks.

1) Get your diet right. Diet is the only thing that can transform your body into having less fat. If you are eating less, you won't gain muscle because not eating enough calories to gain weight means you won't gain weight.
2) Exercise using a lot of variety. This is to preserve current muscle mass while losing fat.

Sample program:

Monday: Heavy Squats 3 reps 5 sets (2 mins rest in between sets) & Bodyweight lunges 15 reps, 5 sets (45 seconds rest in between sets)
Tuesday: 1 min hard running, 1 min easy running x5 (Do a warm-up jog of 5 minutes before this)
Wednesday: Push-ups 5 sets, do 2 less reps than max each set & Pull-ups 3 sets, do 1-2 less reps than max each set
Thursday: Core circuit (google one, there's thousands out there)
Friday: 60m sprints 2 sets 2 reps, 2 min rest in between reps and 4 min rest in between sets
Saturday: Great sex
Sunday: Repeat wednesday

Each workout takes between 15 and 20 minutes, so you can easily fit it into any schedule.

Thanks dude.
 
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