The pchyopaths guide to fighting( or the last fight post you will ever need)

[Ree]

Nearly everyone has heard about the fight or flight response
Sigh....
...i wont say it is a flawed model...but...it is an incomplete model
Think about it...the last time u entered into conflict with a stranger...did u 
A.run away,
or did u 
B.fight...?
if you are like most men,the answer is C...none of the above

You probably either argued,hurled insults and  threats,or apologised,and slinked away humiliated
Is this not true?

Let me introduce you to a more accurate model,
fight and flight are true responses but they are on ends of the spectrum,ends that we rarely reach...
A more detailed model goes like this

Flight,submit,posture,fight

Most of the times when dealing with a threat from the same species(meaning another human)...u will not go to the extremes of the spectrum..u will either sumbit...or posture
This is true not only of humans but with nearly all interspecies interactions...in other words...a dog entering into conflict with another dog,will most likely either posture or submit,...the same rings true for cats and other cats...and not to be left behind...the same holds true for men and other men
...
Now before we go too far..while we all know what fight and flight are....what is posturing,what is submitting?

POSTURING and SUBMISSION
posturing is 
Attempting to convince the threat that u are a dangerous opponent
Cats,will hiss,extend their claws and arch their backs,
dogs will snarl
And men..men will puff out their chests...and kick a whole hell lotta bullshit

"man 1:im a kick ur ass,
Man 2:Oh yeah,
Man 1:Yeah
Man2:Try me,u dont know me,i eat people like you for breakfast
Man1ont make me hurt u boy"

What do all these creatures have in common,?they are trying to convince the threat that they are a very formidable oponent and the opponent better leave them alone.
These organisms are trying to reap the benefits of winning a fight without having to actually fight...this is advantageous as fighting is not only energy consuming it is also potentially dangerous.

A drunk guy doesnt want you to seat  ,a random guy hurled insults and u confronted him..or a guy doesnt want you talking to his girlfreind ,..both these people will posture
They will deploy threats,insults,intimidating gestures,poses and facial expressions in order to make you submit without them having to fight you


Do people ever reach the extremes of the model,do people ever fight or fly?
Yeah...this will happen only if the threat 
IS  far from being evenly matched,if the two opponents are almost evenly matched they will posture,until one submits,if no one submits they will fight,
Flight is only ever deployed if the two opponents are not evenly matched either beacuse they are

1:emerging  from different species(intraspecies)
Or
2:they are the same species but the threat is overwhelming(interspecies)

Example one

A big dog attacking a cat,a cat attacking a Mouse,a wolf attacking a rabbit

Example two

A man with a gun attacking an unarmed civilian
A gang of misfits attacking an unarmed civilain

In both these scenarios the overwhelmed organism will just run
,without trying to posture or submit

Now if u read up until here..i know what u r thinking...".this is all true...and interesting..but how the hell does this information help me in a fight?"

Well
HERE IS HOW IT HELPS YOU IN A FIGHT

Know this and know it well
Someone will only ever posture if they see you as a threat,
They are posturing so as to avoid fighting you
They want the rewrds of winning a fight...without having to fight you,this is only beacuse you will expend their energy,and you are potentially dangerous
They are posturing because you are intimidating,if you were not intimidating they would not posture...

Think about it...if two evenly matched organisms come into contact..say a wolf and a cougar...the wolf will be bristling hairs,growling,snarling...trying to look intimidating right?
But if a wolf happens acroos a squirrel...does it snarl and growl?..nuh...it will simply gulp the squirrel..
A cat squaring up against a dog or another cat,will arch its back,hiss and spit,
But the same  cat,on chancing upon a mouse...will simply walk up and eat it..infact..it might try to make itself look smaller...
No point trying to intimidate something that is not itself inherently intimidating


Now i know what u rthinking...
".hm..so your point is i shuld take heart,when someone is shouting ,or threatening beacuse this proves that they are a lil bit scared"

Yes..and no

Yes..beacuse true..if someone is posturing..they are only doing so beacuse they are wishing to avoid a fight..however...no...my point is not then to just get a little ego boost that they are scared,knowing your opponent is scared will not guarantee a win,
However knowing how the rungs on the escalation ladder run...just might

Nearly all fights follow this pattern
conflict sparks...opponent A postures...opponent B either submits or postures...if opponent B postures..depending on which posture is more intimidating...one opponent submits,however if no organism submits,then a fight will break out...depending on the resource(strength,skill) and resolve(stakes,will)..one opponent submits

Majority of fights you find yourself will respect this escalation ladder
The exceptions are
A.when someone is impersonaly attacking you..e.g a mugger
B.when an emotionally detached person is attacking you...e.g a trained soldgier

However the homeless people and drunk frustated no pussy getting men that you ran into will engage you in conflicts that if they escalate to violence,will escalate in the aforementioned very predicatable manner

Now you who are privy to this information.should seek to jump a rung on this ladder...

It is with good reason that the mammalian brain would seek to avoid fights,
Fights are a last option for mamamls.when all else has failed
Fighting is expensive energy wise,and potentially dangerous
I cannot and will not advise on when,where and why you should fight,that is up to u to decide,i only wish to guide u on the how

Assuming you have decided to fight

You should attack your opponent imediately They start posturing
DO NOT POSTURE BACK
Attack..or exfil

Many of you here are students of various martial arts,i personally have only ever done a lil bit of boxing...i dont lok for trouble,but i when it does rear its head i win fights against bigger and more skilled opponents

These is always beacuse nobody expects you to hit them when they are posturing..its like falling up a staircase..infact most of the times,the guy will look at u like"...not fair..ur not supposed to do that yet..you broke a rule"
Lol...
Again...what they expect..is u diss them,they diss u...they threaten you,you threten them back,u exchange frowns scowls and mean mugs,you maybe start a shoving match al, the while getting angrier,then and lnly then do the fists start flying...its like in the constitution..lol
..so guess what happens when u enter into a conflict.a harsh word is thrown your way....u calmly walk over and throw three punches..
I have been in scenarios where i won a fight and walked out of the fight before anyone knew there has even been a fight....
Everyone stiill talking and drinking all. The while their obnoxious freind is doubled up in pain
Simply beacuse,what they expect is loud cross talk,shouting,emotions...swearing,cussing ,threats,rushes,freinds trying to calm people then.....the fight...why..?.why...wait till your opponent is ready?
My method is not legally freindly and it goes against most concepts you might have been taught of fair play...but hey..all is fair in love and war
Either fight or dont fight...but dont fight poorly
Rearange the steps...dont give  warning...attack ,dont posture


 I have earings and a somewhat feminine face,in a conflict while evryone is trying to look mean,i strive to look as harmless as possible.i put on an innocent wide eyed bambi expression..this is usually an early stage of the conflict,the opponent has just started posturing...and most people even think i am going to defuse the situation,then...wham bam.bam...then no showboating...no  (yeah muthafucka,what were u saying?...take that u lil bitch)...no...none of that...i simply exfiltrate..walk away from the scene while people are still unaware or confused.
No showboating..and no explaining (...some people in order to ease thei conscience will want to spexplain to casual observers the source of the confluct."..hey...i was just minding my bisiness then..these guy came and stole my pet go,dfish") i strongly urge u to not showboat or explain,instead exfil.
And before the bouncers or his posse are aware you will be safely far away from the venue

Nb: the tactics described here require you have excellent control of ur emotions....u know how in pick up at first approach anxiety cripples you...but once u emotionally learn that being rejected by a girl does not majorly negatively affect u..then approach anxiety fades..well this is like that...at first you will have some anxiety,but after a few fights you emotionally learn that these people wont kill you(usually)..the only problem is whereas with pickup you can just practice on real people up until the moment u become proficient and unemotional...with fights..you usually cant experiment on real people...this is why most people learn self defense but at the moment of truth when facing a real threat they freeze up,they trained their muscles,but not their mind,the mind will only be trained not by punching a bag,or a sparring partner..but by engaging a real threat in an unpredicatble enviroment
( not to go to weird on you,but slaughtering animals helps..lol)
Now i dont recomend picking fights with homeless people in the streets.to get rid of your fighting  anxiety...or killing your neighbours cat...it is just something worth noting

Nb.i think if it can violence should always be avoided and this post by no means encourages or endorses violence,however if u have already decided to fight based on ur own parameters..then i would wish u conduct the fight in a manner where chance is on ur side

 

[Richard]

I both agree and disagree with this post. Being that body language is an area of specialty of mine (so much so that I've started writing out a rough draft for a series for the main site) I'll chime in here.

You are correct that the fight or flight mechanism is only partially true - the correct order of succession is freeze,flight, then fight. Predators are attracted to movement and actions so animals will freeze so as to not draw attention to themselves, and humans were once prey in primordial times so the "freeze" response is still our first instinct.

When that doesn't work out, we move on to flight. We try to distance ourselves from the threat either physically or emotionally.

Finally, the fight response kicks in as a semi-last resort. We've evolved as people and understand that there are repercussions to primal fighting (laws forbid fighting basically) so we've instead adopted new ways to be aggressive like shouting, yelling, put-downs, etc. In the presence of alcohol or another substance, your primal brain (limbic brain/reptilian brain) is much stronger because the neocortex is inhibited by the substance which is why drunk men or high men/women tend to become physical much faster.

Predators, aggressors, etc. can be handled in a few ways; you can submit which is a form of freezing/flight but in most cases human predators understand this to mean that you are weak and proceed to further prey upon you because they know you won't fight back. Or, you can adopt an aggressive/defensive posture (spread yourself out, puff your chest out, hold your head up higher, etc.) and display your physical size. Human predators hardly ever look for a fight, and when they do look for a fight they go about it differently. The guys you're talking about, Ree, are men who follow the prey drive; chase, trip, bite. When they egg you on, you're chasing, when you submit, they've tripped you, when you've tripped they bite. Standing your ground and signalling that you're prepared to fight is often times the best thing you can do, unless you can find a route that allows you flight.

Anyway, the fight or flight model isn't meant to be taken as literally as people do because it encompasses a slew of reactions that still fit it. Hurling insults is a form of fighting. Slinking back is a form of flight. Doing nothing/acting un-phased is sometimes seen as a form of freezing.

Studies also show that people are more likely to react to a "threat" in one of the three ways most often. The scenario isn't as powerful as your natural tendency in most cases. As someone who is versed in martial arts and having been on the end of a gun, knife, multiple opponent's, etc. I can tell you that your first instinct isn't too run or flee because it enables the chase. The first thing someone does is submit/freeze to try to alleviate the tension. If the person presses onwards then the attackee will follow all the way up to fighting, and I have fought in all kinds of situations.

So, you have a better understanding of the fight or flight than most people but a few points are "off."

-Richard

 

[Ree]

I both agree and disagree with this post. Being that body language is an area of specialty of mine (so much so that I've started writing out a rough draft for a series for the main site) I'll chime in here.

You are correct that the fight or flight mechanism is only partially true - the correct order of succession is freeze,flight, then fight. Predators are attracted to movement and actions so animals will freeze so as to not draw attention to themselves, and humans were once prey in primordial times so the "freeze" response is still our first instinct.

When that doesn't work out, we move on to flight. We try to distance ourselves from the threat either physically or emotionally.

Finally, the fight response kicks in as a semi-last resort. We've evolved as people and understand that there are repercussions to primal fighting (laws forbid fighting basically) so we've instead adopted new ways to be aggressive like shouting, yelling, put-downs, etc. In the presence of alcohol or another substance, your primal brain (limbic brain/reptilian brain) is much stronger because the neocortex is inhibited by the substance which is why drunk men or high men/women tend to become physical much faster.

Predators, aggressors, etc. can be handled in a few ways; you can submit which is a form of freezing/flight but in most cases human predators understand this to mean that you are weak and proceed to further prey upon you because they know you won't fight back. Or, you can adopt an aggressive/defensive posture (spread yourself out, puff your chest out, hold your head up higher, etc.) and display your physical size. Human predators hardly ever look for a fight, and when they do look for a fight they go about it differently. The guys you're talking about, Ree, are men who follow the prey drive; chase, trip, bite. When they egg you on, you're chasing, when you submit, they've tripped you, when you've tripped they bite. Standing your ground and signalling that you're prepared to fight is often times the best thing you can do, unless you can find a route that allows you flight.

Anyway, the fight or flight model isn't meant to be taken as literally as people do because it encompasses a slew of reactions that still fit it. Hurling insults is a form of fighting. Slinking back is a form of flight. Doing nothing/acting un-phased is sometimes seen as a form of freezing.

Studies also show that people are more likely to react to a "threat" in one of the three ways most often. The scenario isn't as powerful as your natural tendency in most cases. As someone who is versed in martial arts and having been on the end of a gun, knife, multiple opponent's, etc. I can tell you that your first instinct isn't too run or flee because it enables the chase. The first thing someone does is submit/freeze to try to alleviate the tension. If the person presses onwards then the attackee will follow all the way up to fighting, and I have fought in all kinds of situations.

So, you have a better understanding of the fight or flight than most people but a few points are "off."

-Richard

Hey i agree with everything u say,
And i think the only thing we disagrre on is semantics...
...you would call something freezing ...but i would call it submitting(apologizing,slinking..etc)
And i think you would call actions before the actual fight... fighting,but for clarity i would call them posturing(yelling,threatening,insults)posturing might not be just a result of the legal repurcusions of fighting..because animals will posture too(hissing,snarling,hair standing up on end)

Plus i think you are talking about the interaction between a predator and prey,which has some differnces with interactions betwwen animals of the same species....
A predator wants to eat the prey....animals of the same species are trying to get resources or hierarchy
.think about a model where the animals are not trying to eat each other..(wether same species battling for hierrchy or resources,or two carnivores battling it out for resources)....man vs man,cat vs cat,wolf vs wolf,wolf vs cougar...i think this is the type of interactions,where most people in a fight will find themselves in...as opposed to predator vs prey(unless that drunk asshole in the bar is trying to eat u....lol)


On the flip side...Im thrilled that you brought upthepredators sideofthestory....chase trip bite...i didnt know that,but now that u mention it...it makes perfect sense...
Ive seen wolves wont attack until the caribou starts to run...if the caribou stands itsgrounds.(and postures)...the wolf will posture harder...the trip and bite wont be deployed unless the chase is on...

Thanks and im looking forwardto ur posts on bodylanguage
Plus im really curious as to ur experiences on the end of a gun..care to share?

 

[Richard]

Hey i agree with everything u say,
And i think the only thing we disagrre on is semantics...
...you would call something freezing ...but i would call it submitting(apologizing,slinking..etc)
And i think you would call actions before the actual fight... fighting,but for clarity i would call them posturing(yelling,threatening,insults)posturing might not be just a result of the legal repurcusions of fighting..because animals will posture too(hissing,snarling,hair standing up on end)

Plus i think you are talking about the interaction between a predator and prey,which has some differnces with interactions betwwen animals of the same species....
A predator wants to eat the prey....animals of the same species are trying to get resources or hierarchy
.think about a model where the animals are not trying to eat each other..(wether same species battling for hierrchy or resources,or two carnivores battling it out for resources)....man vs man,cat vs cat,wolf vs wolf,wolf vs cougar...i think this is the type of interactions,where most people in a fight will find themselves in...as opposed to predator vs prey(unless that drunk asshole in the bar is trying to eat u....lol)


On the flip side...Im thrilled that you brought upthepredators sideofthestory....chase trip bite...i didnt know that,but now that u mention it...it makes perfect sense...
Ive seen wolves wont attack until the caribou starts to run...if the caribou stands itsgrounds.(and postures)...the wolf will posture harder...the trip and bite wont be deployed unless the chase is on...

Thanks and im looking forwardto ur posts on bodylanguage
Plus im really curious as to ur experiences on the end of a gun..care to share?

By predator, I'm not suggesting a carnivorous animal lol. I'm using predator to mean anyone or any animal that has the intent to hurt, threaten, or endanger you. A man with a gun is every bit as hostile a predator as a Bengal Tiger attacking you - your brain can't distinguish between the two. It's the same reason your body reacts the same way to the anxiety of approaching a cute girl as it does before a fight - your brain can't tell the difference between "perceived threats" so it reacts the same way to all of them.

During the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many students adopted the freeze response by simply "playing dead" so as to not draw any attention to themselves from the shooter. Freezing is any action that restricts movement - squirrels do it when a hawk is flying around, etc. Submitting, apologizing, etc., like I said, is the same as flight.

Posturing is the a part of the fight or flight response though, it's a reflexive and reactionary measure animals (and humans take) when cornered either physically or emotionally. Girls will exhibit a response if you cage them with your arms or legs, if she's against a wall and you pin both your arms against the wall to trap her in. You'll see posture changes because it's the physical manifestation of tension in your body; also known as body language. Semantics may indeed be the problem here lol. If posture = body language change then I think we agree on most things.

As for me being on the end of a gun - well, I handled that as I was supposed to. I submitted, gave him the money in my pocket (wasn't much because I never carry large amounts), and didn't have my phone or keys, etc. on me because I went out for a walk so the guy proceeded. A mistake a lot of people make is they put their hands of immediately when facing a gun - it's a mistake. I kept my hands down, displayed non-threatening body language, talked to the guy about my family, etc. and he was still aggressive - when he told me "to put my hands up" that's when I disarmed him because he was expecting me to move, and thus his reaction was much slower than usual. Action is always faster than reaction anyway and I went through a lot of training with guns and my disarm speed is faster than your ability to pull the trigger anyway, waiting until he says "put your hands up" is prime though because, again, he's expecting you to move your hands.

-Richard

P.S. If you can get get your hands on the book "What Every BODY Is Saying: An Ex-FBI Agent's Guide to Speed Reading People" by Joe Navarro then I'd highly recommend it. You'd enjoy that read very much, and it's jam packed with information.

 

[Ree]

Nice moves with the gun...wow...how would i have reacted to that?
I would probably piss myself and then go home thinking about how the world is so unfair

I will definetely check up on the book that u suggested.i will proabably look for a free pdf version,and on failing to find that i will sulkily buy it ,complain about the price,before i proceed to enjoy the contents

..in the meanwhile i would want us to do a thought experiment.
U obviously reached this level of skill both in seduction and in martial arts by being an empirical man.
For this thought experiment we will forget about all articles,posts,blogs,books and content on the mammalian response.
We will retain only what we have seen

I will explore the sequence of responses that i think an animal would likely deploy in the event that it enters into conflict with another animal of its own kind
Being an empirical man
I will base my answer not on what ive read but on what i have seen(either in real life or national geographic)
I will use two animal examples,..dog,and man
common animals that I believe we are all familiar with

HYPOTHESIS
The sequence goes as such

Flight-submit-nuetral-posture-fight

The animal is at nuetral,when they face the threat(from the same species)..the animal will either go left or right based on how they perceive the threat...in order to make sure this is not a semantical issue,which i strongly supect it is..i will give definitions to yhese otherwise ambiguos terms

Flight i define as run,
Submit i define as give up the contest under conditions unfavorable to oneself and favorable to the opponent
Nuetral is the normal unthreatened mamal
I define posture as attempt to intimidate and win the contest without actually fighting
And fight i define as ....fight....actually fighting...how do i say it...physical battery...punches thrown..bites..claws.actual fight..i dont define anything as fight that is not a fight


EXAMpLE ONE..dog

A dog is eating some choice food...another dog attempts to eat our first dogs food....
I say the first dog will then shift from nuetral to posture(attempt to intimidate the thief dog by showing its teeth,bristling fur,snarling,growling)
The thief dog will then either be intimidated and submit(leave the first dog in peace)...or..it will.start to posture too
( exibit threatening behaviour)
The first dog will then either submit(surrender the food to the thief dog) or fight
In the event of a fight,the dog that comes off worst will submit(tail bettwen legs,belly up..leave the food to the winner)
The winner will then let it go,but if not the loser will flee

Example 2 man

A man in a restaurant is sitting on a choice seat...a drunk asshole tells him that is his seat and he should get his ass out of it
The man either imediately submits(gives up his seat) to the drunks posturing..or postures back(attempts to intimidate)
The drunk seeing this guy aint no pushover..either postures harder or submits (leaves guy in peace)
After both sides posture(shouting yelling threatening cursing)
Left unchecked one person will submit or the two contestants will fight
The loser will then submit.the winner will usually then stop his attack seeing as he has gotten what he wanted,in the event that he doesnt stop..the loser will then flee

I have already learnt some new things from you(though i will confess that i will not be attempting disarming gunmen anytime soon...lol)
My attitude as always is that i know enough to know that i dont enough
I am open to the very real possibility that there is something i am missing...
What i would want from you..is to point out which jigsaw piece i dont posess...where does my logic fail,where im i wrong..in other words what do u think would happen instead?

 

[Richard]

Nice moves with the gun...wow...how would i have reacted to that?
I would probably piss myself and then go home thinking about how the world is so unfair

I will definetely check up on the book that u suggested.i will proabably look for a free pdf version,and on failing to find that i will sulkily buy it ,complain about the price,before i proceed to enjoy the contents

..in the meanwhile i would want us to do a thought experiment.
U obviously reached this level of skill both in seduction and in martial arts by being an empirical man.
For this thought experiment we will forget about all articles,posts,blogs,books and content on the mammalian response.
We will retain only what we have seen

I will explore the sequence of responses that i think an animal would likely deploy in the event that it enters into conflict with another animal of its own kind
Being an empirical man
I will base my answer not on what ive read but on what i have seen(either in real life or national geographic)
I will use two animal examples,..dog,and man
common animals that I believe we are all familiar with

HYPOTHESIS
The sequence goes as such

Flight-submit-nuetral-posture-fight

The animal is at nuetral,when they face the threat(from the same species)..the animal will either go left or right based on how they perceive the threat...in order to make sure this is not a semantical issue,which i strongly supect it is..i will give definitions to yhese otherwise ambiguos terms

Flight i define as run,
Submit i define as give up the contest under conditions unfavorable to oneself and favorable to the opponent
Nuetral is the normal unthreatened mamal
I define posture as attempt to intimidate and win the contest without actually fighting
And fight i define as ....fight....actually fighting...how do i say it...physical battery...punches thrown..bites..claws.actual fight..i dont define anything as fight that is not a fight


EXAMpLE ONE..dog

A dog is eating some choice food...another dog attempts to eat our first dogs food....
I say the first dog will then shift from nuetral to posture(attempt to intimidate the thief dog by showing its teeth,bristling fur,snarling,growling)
The thief dog will then either be intimidated and submit(leave the first dog in peace)...or..it will.start to posture too
( exibit threatening behaviour)
The first dog will then either submit(surrender the food to the thief dog) or fight
In the event of a fight,the dog that comes off worst will submit(tail bettwen legs,belly up..leave the food to the winner)
The winner will then let it go,but if not the loser will flee

Example 2 man

A man in a restaurant is sitting on a choice seat...a drunk asshole tells him that is his seat and he should get his ass out of it
The man either imediately submits(gives up his seat) to the drunks posturing..or postures back(attempts to intimidate)
The drunk seeing this guy aint no pushover..either postures harder or submits (leaves guy in peace)
After both sides posture(shouting yelling threatening cursing)
Left unchecked one person will submit or the two contestants will fight
The loser will then submit.the winner will usually then stop his attack seeing as he has gotten what he wanted,in the event that he doesnt stop..the loser will then flee

I have already learnt some new things from you(though i will confess that i will not be attempting disarming gunmen anytime soon...lol)
My attitude as always is that i know enough to know that i dont enough
I am open to the very real possibility that there is something i am missing...
What i would want from you..is to point out which jigsaw piece i dont posess...where does my logic fail,where im i wrong..in other words what do u think would happen instead?

Sure thing, dude.

I'll add a little more beyond what you're asking because when you get into the animal kingdom and aggression you introduce what is referred to as the five Fs: freeze, faint, fool around, fight, flight.

Goats faint when under threat/stress. Lions fight when under stress/danger. Squirrels/rabbits tend to freeze when under danger/stress. Zebras/gazelles will rely on flight during stress/danger. Dogs may actually fool around by rolling on their stomach, biting an itch, etc.

Basically, animals will not always posture and prepare to fight as you are suggesting, nor will they always submit, or always run, etc. The biggest issue with a discussion like this is that people only tend to see the fight or flight response because they lack knowledge that another response beyond fight or flight is taking place. The jigsaw piece you're missing are the responses possible beyond fight or flight, posturing/submitting. I'd also argue that posturing is the action taken but not necessarily solely for fighting, a person can definitely posture into a non-threatening position so what you call "slinking" is a form of "posturing."

As for the man being confronted by the drunk asshole - again, the man a wide variety of options available and I've seen a slew of them. I've seen the asshole posture himself into a position of dominance by spreading his feet wider, flail his arms as he talks, and invade personal space, I've seen the attackee slink back, take on an equally aggressive posture, I've seen guys do nothing (freeze) but sit there and take the aggression, I've seen guys laugh it off/attempt to make a joke of it (fool around), and some people have fainted when under enough stress.

When I first introduced the freeze response - I was doing so introducing it as a category that body language signals get slotted into. This may be where the problem is, I'm approaching fighting from the point of view of body language changes. Flailing of the arms, verbal yelling, clenched fists are all signals that get slotted into "fighting." Blocking your eyes, averting your head from the asshole, holding your beer up higher to your chest/neck are all signals that get slotted into "flight."

This is where I see a semantic issue/category issue if that makes sense. I'm approaching fighting from the stance that your intention changes and as a result your body language changes indicating your intention. A closed fist vs. a palm up stance, puffing your chest out and raising your head up vs. relaxing your shoulders and tilting your head. These signals all mean different things so I also define a "fight" differently than you do. Anyway, my stance is that people don't follow a set of responses when reacting to danger/stress, and instead have a wide variety of possible chains they can follow with posturing/preparing to fight being only one option.

Pretty sure that was everything I wanted to cover. I'm enjoying this conversation.

Ah! So far we've only talked about what the natural reactions to danger/stress are, I think it's much better to talk about what should be done when faced with stress/danger. Different martial arts teach different ways to confront it but I believe that a person should be taught to respond instead of react like I did with the situation with the gun. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I've written.

-Richard

 

[Bete Noire]

This conversation is so interesting! I love psychology and if i hadnt already set goals i would definately be doing it at university' You mentioned the 'Every Body is Saying' book, i'll check to see if its online after this. Any other books of particular interest in relation to useful psychology you've found along the way? Also ill big-up what Ree said about the gun disarming - that takes some incredibly steely balls to go for something like that!

 

[Drck]

http://i.imgur.com/PVdfXD6.jpg

You got to fight in stead of analyzing it, have lots of fighting experience, otherwise avoid any fights. It's too dangerous, people are crazy, they have knives, guns, nothing to live for...

If you want to be a good fighter and you are an average guy today, think about DOING some martial arts daily, at least 1-2 intensive hours and 5-6 days a week for the next three years or so. If you want to be better, you got to double the effort and time. Lift some weights during rest periods. If you think that's too much, you just won't have any clue about fighting and what guys you might encounter...

 

[lao che]

it occurred to me that this discussion is somewhat like ree and richard posturing. eventually one will submit. or you two can duke it out.

very interesting read, thank you both (he says, then pushes the submit button)

 

[Ree]

Lol...nuh ..me and richard r both on the same side of this fight.....(bet richard gets problems with metal detectors at the airport coz of his balls of steel)
Het richard...i know ur not on the forums so often these days...but if u r reading this...how about a field report about some of these none seduction related adventures?( OR ..i think it is called).Like a long honest detailed report about the gunz and knives.....i think it would be a good read for us action buffs
Speaking of which
@lao che

We never had our che guevera discusion ..wsap?

 

[lux7]

As for me being on the end of a gun - well, I handled that as I was supposed to. I submitted, gave him the money in my pocket (wasn't much because I never carry large amounts), and didn't have my phone or keys, etc. on me because I went out for a walk so the guy proceeded. A mistake a lot of people make is they put their hands of immediately when facing a gun - it's a mistake. I kept my hands down, displayed non-threatening body language, talked to the guy about my family, etc. and he was still aggressive - when he told me "to put my hands up" that's when I disarmed him because he was expecting me to move, and thus his reaction was much slower than usual. Action is always faster than reaction anyway and I went through a lot of training with guns and my disarm speed is faster than your ability to pull the trigger anyway, waiting until he says "put your hands up" is prime though because, again, he's expecting you to move your hands.

-Richard

P.S. If you can get get your hands on the book "What Every BODY Is Saying: An Ex-FBI Agent's Guide to Speed Reading People" by Joe Navarro then I'd highly recommend it. You'd enjoy that read very much, and it's jam packed with information.

LOL just read this part honestly and had to comment.

The action/reaction thing also depends on the distance of the attacker though.
If a guy is stupid enough to have a gun and stand close to you, then yes.
If he keeps a couple of meters away, then...

Also that's one of those situation where even if you're 99% sure you'll be quicker... That 1% is your life there...

 

[Rain]

Ah! So far we've only talked about what the natural reactions to danger/stress are, I think it's much better to talk about what should be done when faced with stress/danger. Different martial arts teach different ways to confront it but I believe that a person should be taught to respond instead of react like I did with the situation with the gun. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I've written.

-Richard

Do you mean, a person should not have given the money like you did when someone pulled a gun or do you mean a person should not attempt to disarm if someone pulled a gun?

 

[Ree]

Ah! So far we've only talked about what the natural reactions to danger/stress are, I think it's much better to talk about what should be done when faced with stress/danger. Different martial arts teach different ways to confront it but I believe that a person should be taught to respond instead of react like I did with the situation with the gun. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I've written.

-Richard

Do you mean, a person should not have given the money like you did when someone pulled a gun or do you mean a person should not attempt to disarm if someone pulled a gun?

to be honest i would rather just cooperate and live to see another day

 

[DarkKnight]

Ree,

I agree with a lot of your first post except maybe your preferred reaction by pre-empting people, which while effective is not always necessary.

I agree about the portion of posturing, I notice this mostly with weight lifting meatheads, they like to pretend and be imposing, whereas in my kickboxing/mma gym most guys are really humble and despite being very capable won't provoke or try to intimidate (except before a match ofcourse!). The biggest difference is obviously skill. The real fighters dont pretend, but have a silent confidence.

Usually I analyze the prefered tactics of my opponent. If they posture they are usually pretending to have control. When they keep changing strategies usually they are desperate. Also if a guy tries passive agressive tactics he is either very intelligent and calculating or just intimidated and worried about retaliation.

A favourite tactic of mine in the past has been making opponents mentally invested in my person so I become bigger in their mind. Usually guys like that defeat themselves or provide openings which you can use. You can do this by being unreactive, provoking them to try harder.

Meditation also really helps by making you act with more acuity and sense the real intentions of people around you.

Sometimes you have to get them to cut the crap though. Most guys cut it out when they understand that retaliation is coming.

Big tip for everyone: avoid people who have nothing to lose. These people can employ desperate tactics.

Also getting the authorities involved is a simple solution to get most braggarts quiet since they were bluffing. You don't have to play anyones game. Fighting or arguing is unproductive and a fools game.