the Search For "God"

[trashKENNUT]

Hi Guys, Welcome Welcome !

This might be a sensitive topic.This is more about me finding the meaning of life.

Ever since reading Chase material, reading countless material on women, life, study the Law of Attraction, studying Bruce Lee philosophy, reading books and books, watching videos after videos, watching my religion videos (and find some distortion and cognitive dissonance). I find a few things for me that is true. What Bruce Lee mention "Ultimately all type of knowledge means Self-Knowledge", and the part where is that i totally understand that but it is like my life is only based on this principle as well, which i found to be true (for myself).

"Decide what you want and get align with it" - Esther Hicks.

I am a fan of Law of Attraction, I have seen it work, but Esther Hicks has also her own distorted views with some of the Law of Attraction gurus out there too. So i am no bias. But she has one point about life which resonates with me. IF you want to watch it,

Abraham Hicks - Satan and Santa. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yBc2ZifVKU

But this is where i feel lost. I feel like "Is this what my life is?" I mean like ultimately all type of knowledge means self-knowledge, which means i have to flow before the universe flows, and then, that's it?

I feel sad though, I have no afterlife whatsoever. LOLX

Zac

 

[Good Vibes]

whenever someone says "I've found god" my first question always is "where was he hiding?".

As far as no afterlife goes, think of it this way;

You didn't exist for billions of years before this life and it didn't bother you then and you'll be non existent for billions of years after this life, so why should that bother you?

The meaning of life is to be happy.

 

[trashKENNUT]

You didn't exist for billions of years before this life and it didn't bother you then and you'll be non existent for billions of years after this life, so why should that bother you?

True that.

Zac

 

[Franco]

GV,

You didn't exist for billions of years before this life and it didn't bother you then and you'll be non existent for billions of years after this life, so why should that bother you?

This is exactly one of the arguments I use when people ask me about religion or a "God." I'm glad to see someone else shares this logic.

Zac,

The meaning of life is to be happy.

Once in awhile, the simplest answer can be the best answer. =)

- Franco

 

[trashKENNUT]

Franco,

Once in awhile, the simplest answer can be the best answer. =)

It can be hard for different people, because like Chase, I went to religious schools and, i learn until i was 15. IT takes some re-wiring.

Zac

 

[Chase]

To play devil's advocate on this thread about God...

The meaning of life is to be happy.

The happiest people on Earth (by far) are trained Buddhist monks:

Matthiew Ricard

After completing his doctoral thesis in 1972, Ricard decided to forsake his scientific career and concentrate on the practice of Tibetan Buddhism.

...

He has been dubbed the "happiest person in the world" by popular media.[3][4][5] Matthieu Ricard was a volunteer subject in a study performed at the University of Wisconsin–Madison's on happiness, scoring significantly beyond the average obtained after testing hundreds of other volunteers.[4]

He co-authored a study on the brains of long-term meditators, including himself, who had undergone a minimum of three years retreat.[6]

... and the great thing about this is, there's virtually zero barrier to entry: all you've got to do is leave behind worldly things, bid a fond farewell to friends and family, and buy a one-way ticket to Nepal.

I'm convinced though that as much as people like to tell themselves life is all about being happy, subconsciously, no one (except perhaps Matthieu Ricard) really believes it.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure we'd all be monks.

Funny to think about, huh?

Chase

 

[trashKENNUT]

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure we'd all be monks.

Funny to think about, huh?

Guess our flights are set. I bought us all 4 first class tickets to Nepal. That will be the last worldly thing that we will have. SO order your Fish and Chips people!. We going to meditate women into fruition.

Zac

 

[Nuncle]

... and the great thing about this is, there's virtually zero barrier to entry: all you've got to do is leave behind worldly things, bid a fond farewell to friends and family, and buy a one-way ticket to Nepal.

Unfortunately that's when the Devil does his work, dangling his baubles in front of us.

 

[Richard]

Agree with Franco and GV about the stars, and existence itself as, I too make this argument regularly. However, I believe the purpose of life is not happiness, though happiness plays a part, I tend to follow more in suit with Abraham Maslow in his Hierarchy of Needs where everyone thrives to be "self-actualized" and that being said, people have different routes they can take to becoming self actualized, roads which don't require giving up worldly possessions, or bonds to others. I also tend to believe that the purpose of life is to find your own meaning, follow your own path a leave a mark on humanity for future generations.

 

[Good Vibes]

The happiest people on Earth (by far) are trained Buddhist monks:

Happiness is subjective but I seriously doubt your assertion.

I'm convinced though that as much as people like to tell themselves life is all about being happy, subconsciously, no one (except perhaps Matthieu Ricard) really believes it.

I'm not convinced with your statement about the subconscious belief assuming you mean "striving to be happy" and not "all about being happy" and what is your perception of happiness?

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure we'd all be monks.

Funny to think about, huh?

Chase

Concerning monks, I'm glad you said funny.

I believe the purpose of life is not happiness, though happiness plays a part, I tend to follow more in suit with Abraham Maslow in his Hierarchy of Needs where everyone thrives to be "self-actualized"

You wouldn't thrive to be "self-actualized" to be anything less than contempted/satisfied/happy or whatever you want to call it would you?

I also tend to believe that the purpose of life is to find your own meaning...

Sounds good to me.

Oh dear! have I opened up a can of worms in this thread?

 

[Nuncle]

At the risk of starting off an internet ding dong why do you feel so threatened by the idea of religion?

 

[trashKENNUT]

At the risk of starting off an internet ding dong why do you feel so threatened by the idea of religion?

Err, in case, i don't feel threatened at all. There are people threatened me and scaring other people off with hell fire and brimstone, and think they are "right". The problem is not about "right". IT's rather people cursing other people, trying to crucify people without even attending to the person in peace or be considerate first.

I mean who doesn't attack back moral superiority? Humans have been fighting with each other since the days of the Greeks!

Trust me when i say this, A lot of people don't "get it". They really don't get the understanding of religion, and i can tell you, i was religious too, just so you know.

Zac

 

[Chase]

Happiness is subjective but I seriously doubt your assertion.

An assertion is a strongly-stated claim usually unsupported by evidence (e.g. "The meaning of life is happiness").

The statement I made above, conversely, I provided along with links to scientific research using brain scans that have established that - at least among the hundreds of individuals scanned - a highly trained Buddhist monk has the highest, most off-the-charts levels of happiness of any individual on Earth.

If you take issue with the research, that's one thing - maybe you think there's a region of the brain contributing to happiness that neuroscientists have missed in these studies, say - but let us know what you're questioning in the methodology before you write off some pretty hard and convincing peer-reviewed research findings for not gelling with what you presently believe.

I'm convinced though that as much as people like to tell themselves life is all about being happy, subconsciously, no one (except perhaps Matthieu Ricard) really believes it.

I'm not convinced with your statement about the subconscious belief assuming you mean "striving to be happy" and not "all about being happy" and what is your perception of happiness?

Rather than attempt to define these myself, I'll let people who do this for a living do so instead:

What does it take to have a happy and meaningful life?

(or, the full study and discussion here: Some Key Differences between a Happy Life and a Meaningful Life)

Happiness and meaning have some overlap, but they aren't the same thing, and sometimes pursuing one means sacrificing the other - the abstract from that paper:

Satisfying one’s needs and wants increased happiness but was largely irrelevant to meaningfulness. Happiness was largely present-oriented, whereas meaningfulness involves integrating past, present, and future. For example, thinking about future and past was associated with high meaningfulness but low happiness. Happiness was linked to being a taker rather than a giver, whereas meaningfulness went with being a giver rather than a taker. Higher levels of worry, stress, and anxiety were linked to higher meaningfulness but lower happiness. Concerns with personal identity and expressing the self contributed to meaning but not happiness. We offer brief composite sketches of the unhappy but meaningful life and of the happy but meaningless life.

In modern Western society, people very often conflate one with the other. You tend not to see this in most other societies (nor did you see it in Western society much prior to about the mid-19th century).

In my experience, those who think of themselves as "happiness-seekers" and those who think of themselves as "meaning-seekers" very often fall into two distinct camps, akin to different political parties or religious persons - each side convinced they have it right and the other side has it wrong (perhaps because each side needs to feel validated that its choice - of either pursuing meaning or happiness - is the "right" choice).

It seems to me that most people seek some happy medium - no one's flying off to achieve the pinnacle of meaningless happiness as a monk, but no one's setting aside all sources of happiness to do nothing but live a Spartan meaning-only life, either.

We're mostly just pursuing innate biological drives, that reward us with feelings of happiness or meaning when we do. But there appears to be some back-and-forth between the two that prevents us from becoming either total in-the-moment pleasure-seekers or total for-the-future meaning-makers.

Chase

 

[Richard]

[/quote]We're mostly just pursuing innate biological drives, that reward us with feelings of happiness or meaning when we do. But there appears to be some back-and-forth between the two that prevents us from becoming either total in-the-moment pleasure-seekers or total for-the-future meaning-makers[/quote]

Chase, what you're referring to here about the happy medium is called the psychopathology of normalcy, and I'm confident you're familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy, and this PON simply means that most people are operating and function on levels lower than a person who has become self-actualized, which is according to Maslow, the "full realization of ones potential" and each individuals potential is distinct to that individual, and is part of a "core nature unique to that individual."
That being said, you yourself may be self-actualized.

 

[gifatron]

Purpose is an entirely subjective and intentional endeavor, and life is an altogether accidental phenomena, or so the evidence would indicate. I don't think life has a purpose. I think humans have purposes that they themselves or others assign to them. I think that the Buddhist idea of chain of causality / dependent origination pretty much answers all of the Big Questions, albeit in a way that can be very emotionally unsatisfying if you're expecting something more profound.

 

[trashKENNUT]

Thanks guys,

Seems like it's a cool thing to have everyone sharing different perspectives without holding some spear ready to poke each other's a$$. Really like the interaction here. We, humans seems to haven't discover the true essence of this for now, and i feel we only touching the surface.

Zac

 

[Good Vibes]

... scientific research using brain scans that have established that - at least among the hundreds of individuals scanned - a highly trained Buddhist monk has the highest, most off-the-charts levels of happiness of any individual on Earth.

We have more than 7 billion people alive on earth currently and this research scanned hundreds of individuals that finds 1 monk to be the happiest. So therefore trained Buddhist monks must be the happiest people.
I would call this comment,

The happiest people on Earth (by far) are trained Buddhist monks:

... an assertion not supported by evidence. Also you do realize that religious groups are notoriously thinking up clever ways to disguise but promote their religions with phony evidence, survey's and biased scientific research to gain more adherents.

If you can provide a link to that research I'll review it.

maybe you think there's a region of the brain contributing to happiness that neuroscientists have missed in these studies

No I don't!

Now if you like, my assertion

The meaning of life is to be happy.

Franco put it best, "Once in awhile, the simplest answer can be the best answer."

We are talking definitional differences here, I used that phrase colloquially as a lot of religious people will say that their "god" has a purpose/meaning for them.
Another definitional difference is the word "theory" the colloquial meaning is, "to have an idea" but the scientific meaning according to wiki is,

a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.

Wouldn't it be annoying to have to correct them all the time?

...and by the way Chase I appreciate your time and effort to clarify the differences between happiness and meaning and the links you provided as well as all your posts and articles to date.

One last thing, imagine getting to a ripe old age and someone asks you to reflect back on your life and all the achievements you've made in the past you consider to be meaningful. I think it would be a tragedy to not be able to say "yeah I'm happy about all that?"

"The meaning of life is to be happy".

 

[Franco]

One last thing, imagine getting to a ripe old age and someone asks you to reflect back on your life and all the achievements you've made in the past you consider to be meaningful. I think it would be a tragedy to not be able to say "yeah I'm happy about all that?"

Good stuff here, GV. I'm on the same page.

This is also how I define whether or not your life is "successful" as well. Even if you leave a "legacy" or "make waves" on this planet that will stand for years and years to come, if you aren't happy about those waves you made... if you can't say on your deathbed in the last week of your life, "I'm happy about the life I lived," then what's the point? MAYBE you've helped humanity in some form, but you won't be around to see any of it. So while you are on your deathbed saying, "I wish I hadn't worked so hard" or "I wish that I let myself be happier" (which I CAN support with evidence because research has been done showing what the top 5 regrets of the dying are: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying), then there will be others who are actually reaping your benefits, enjoying life, and then passing away knowing that they engaged themselves fully in all of the happiness that they could.

The argument can be made that it is selfless and honorable to sacrifice your happiness for the sake of others, but it wouldn't be farfetched to conclude that this is one of the types of behavior that leads to the regrets in the research I've linked above. While there are many small situations where putting others first can maximize happiness as a whole (utilitarianism), at the end of your life, you need to be able to say that you put yourself and your desires above everyone else, first. Those are the individuals who have no regrets when the end of their life arrives.

Of course, this is where people with a past history in religion (or current, strong belief in it) tend to try to make their case. There is always some idea of a reward or promise of stronger happiness in the "after-life" for doing things for others. But if you don't believe in an after-life, and you internalize the fact that this time on your planet is ALL you will ever experience, then you realize that you need to do everything you want to do in order to be satisfied with that small amount of time that you were here.

With that being said, I think this website and its high emphasis on self-improvement is one of the best ways to maximize that happiness for you and everyone around you as well.

My two cents. =)

- Franco

 

[Chase]

This is clearly a "religious" debate, based on different underlying value structures.

Here's how we identify the difference:

Nikola Tesla: died broke, alone, and batshit crazy, talking to pigeons, BUT having contributed some of the most important technological advances of the past 500 or 600 years (or perhaps much more).

Some Random Farmer: died with no larger legacy, but surrounded by his children and grandchildren, having done his small part to contribute to the human gene pool, and to civilization, with his growing of crops and selling them at the market. He died with few accomplishments, but a smile on his face.

Whose life was more "meaningful"?

Your answer depends on whether you value what science calls "happiness" (the emotion of feeling good about what one has for oneself) or what science calls "meaning" (the emotion of feeling good about what one is doing, or has done, for the greater good).

There's no right or wrong to this, actually. Without the "Life's about happiness and feelings!" people, society breaks down - it doesn't function properly if most people go devote themselves to pie in the sky projects, putting themselves through the grind of hard competition for the top spot, and whatnot.

Alternately, society doesn't progress much without the comparatively rarer "Life's about meaningful, practical achievement!" folks, who are smaller in number, and probably not anyone you want to date or be friends with, but are the inventors, mathematicians, business magnates, and the like.

Which is probably why society produces each of these folks in the ratios that it does.

A society full of "meaning" folks breaks apart and stops functioning as a society, while a society filled with "happiness" folks stagnates and stops evolving.

Chase

 

[Good Vibes]

This is clearly a "religious" debate, based on different underlying value structures.

Not sure 'bout that, I think 2 atheists could easily have this debate (if that's what it is) or 2 theists of the same religion/denomination.

Here's how we identify the difference:

Some Random Farmer
He died with few accomplishments......

From an onlooker perhaps. It's possible that the farmer may of felt his accomplishments weren't fewer than Tesla's.

Whose life was more "meaningful"?

It's all relative to the individual. The farmer may of also felt he had both more meaning and happiness.

Unfortunately that's when the Devil does his work, dangling his baubles in front of us.

To play devil's advocate on this thread about God...

Poor devil, always gets the blame but doesn't do much wrong. He gives Adam and Eve knowledge, warns people of problems and yet the "god" according to the bible is the one either killing people, having people killed or threatening to kill people over and over again and yet he loves us all.
Thank Moses, the world's greatest con artist.

and thank the devil neither of them have been proven to exist.