FR Too Platonic

[Kvothe]

Had a date today with a girl I had street approached with a new model I'm testing out. It worked decently well and we set up a date for Friday night.

Met her nearby, and told her she looked great. We chatted a little bit and headed to the bar. From the get-go there was a lack of flirtation, which carried over throughout the night. I don't know entirely why this was. We had a lot of incidental touch though; while walking our arms were touching, and while sitting down our legs were touching. At one point, I asked her to show me her tattoo, and she gave me her hand and I looked at it.

I also used my discretion frame to compare suburbs to the city, and she very much agreed with me. I did a decent job deep diving, and we were laughing and having a good time. She told me a story about how she walked in on a famous celebrity having sex, and we joked about her joining in.

After a while, we went to a new bar, and we walked there. We got to talking about our adventurous friends, and she mentioned she had one she would like to keep on a leash to prevent him from hurting himself. I made a joke about how I knew she was the type of girl who liked her men on leashes. She laughed but said that wasn't true.

There was definitely teasing going on throughout, but for some reason there was a lack of sexual tension, and I'm not sure why. We made jokes about how she seemed like a wrestler, but I think the big issue was there wasn't enough challenge on my part to stimulate her. It was also almost all me doing the touching, when it should have been more cooperative.

I asked her about her dating experiences here, and we talked. I asked her about her type, and she told me she doesn't really have one-she likes guys who can hold a conversation and are taller than her. We then joked that she had a low bar. I told her that I enjoyed being single, and thought it gave the opportunity for many adventures, and that it wasn't something I wanted to give up (BF disqualifying, as per Ricardus). But I told her aside from initial looks, I liked girls who had a passion and drive.

At this point we had finished our second drink, and she suggested we call it. In retrospect, I should have suggested a pull on a high note, instead of right as we were leaving. She refused, but said we should get a rain check on it.

She headed out, and didn't send me a text after.

Will try for date 2, but low expectations.

Have another date with a Russian girl on Sunday.

 

[Chase]

@Kvothe,

Girls like that (where the flirtation is low or off-the-mark) are tough.

Usually it's a straight personality mismatch. Some girls you gel with very well... some really aren't much of a fit though.

That said, I see some things here you could've done to tighten things up a bit:

At one point, I asked her to show me her tattoo, and she gave me her hand and I looked at it.

Tattoos are pretty personal. Not sure if you did more than look at it, but can be a good opportunity to deep dive her: "So why'd you get inked?"

Can go into cold reads: "You know what I've noticed about people with visible tattoos, is they have a tendency to not care about the rules as closely as other people. I think that's a good thing. Because if everyone follows the rules, all the time, what you get is a bunch of very boring people."

She told me a story about how she walked in on a famous celebrity having sex, and we joked about her joining in.

This is one place where the humor's off-the-mark.

Joking about sex, about women wanting sex, and so on, is good... however, the deeper into the seduction you get, the more you want the sex jokes to be about you and her (preferably about her chasing after/wanting sex with you).

Here, you are already on a date. You have had some deep conversation. She is probably feeling fairly connected.

And then you joke about her trying to bang someone else.

I've known a few guys who could do this okay -- they'd just joke about women being these total sex hounds trying to shag everyone around them. And they did it in a way where the woman just interpreted it as the guy himself was the sex hound, and he saw her in a very sexual way.

Unless you've got that feeling down pat though, when you joke about your girl trying to shag random dudes later on in the seduction, it is often going to feel like you are pushing her away. Some women will get offended about that; you can trigger anti-slut defense; others will feel like maybe you're not actually interested in them and are just talking with them about sex because it's interesting to you.

Here's a better way to deal with this scenario:

HER: blah blah walked in on such-and-such famous celebrity right in the middle of going doggystyle on some girl.​

​

YOU: Yeah, that didn't turn you on, huh?​

... mixed with giving her a sexy look and sliding closer to her, so she knows you approve of her being turned on.

Another way to respond to it:

​

HER: blah blah walked in on such-and-such famous celebrity right in the middle of going doggystyle on some girl.​

​

YOU: What a jerk for not locking his door. We should go over to his apartment and do that to him. He'll walk into me doggystyling you right on his silk sheets, and you can look him in the eye and tell him "This is for making me see that, jerk!"​

There are all kinds of fun ways you can make this about you and her, without having to joke about her wanting to shag some guy she probably didn't really want to shag, and making her feel like you are pushing her away and punishing her for telling something sexual to you.

We got to talking about our adventurous friends, and she mentioned she had one she would like to keep on a leash to prevent him from hurting himself. I made a joke about how I knew she was the type of girl who liked her men on leashes. She laughed but said that wasn't true.

Again, same exact thing here.

You are framing her as some kind of sexual aggressor who is chasing after any other man than you.

It might be because you already felt it wasn't on -- sometimes guys will do this as a kind of auto-rejection if they feel like the girl isn't into them.

But yeah. You could go the complete opposite here, and it'd be so much better:

HER: I have one friend I'd like to keep on a leash to prevent from hurting himself.​

​

YOU: Oh yeah? Because I was just thinking about how you'd look on a leash. I mean, just totally coincidentally. It's actually just a huge coincidence that you would even mention leashes right as I was thinking that.​

Make it about her and you.

Ideally, her submitting to you.

There was definitely teasing going on throughout, but for some reason there was a lack of sexual tension, and I'm not sure why.

You were pushing her away, by repeatedly joking about her going for / making submit other men.

Rather than talking about her going for / submitting to you.

We made jokes about how she seemed like a wrestler, but I think the big issue was there wasn't enough challenge on my part to stimulate her.

How is that sexual?

"You seem like you wrestle men into submission" is, again, the same thing.

It almost seems like you are coming at it from kind of a submissive perspective, looking for a dominant woman.

Whereas what most women are looking for is a man who will dominate them.

Wrestler could work, but I'd imagine really only if you made it about putting her into submission:

"Yeah, I'll bet you wrestle. But I'd have you on the floor between my knees in no time. And I don't even want to tell you what you'd have to do down there for me to let you back up. You'd be paying your dues, I'll tell you that much."

I asked her about her type, and she told me she doesn't really have one-she likes guys who can hold a conversation and are taller than her.

"Do you have a type" is just... this is not usually a question you want to ask women.

Because then it sounds like you are fishing around to figure out if you fit what they're looking for or not.

The thing is: you are on the date already. You should ASSUME she is into you.

Asking her (implicitly) whether you fit what she's looking for or not just rolls the entire thing back to the start. Like she's just met you and is figuring out all over again whether you're worth giving the time of day to or not.

If you really want to broach the subject of types, do it in a playful way... e.g., by telling her something like "We would never work out. You blah blah tease tease and I just blah blah tease."

Then let her either joke about how you are not her type at all, or qualify you as exactly her kind of guy.

We then joked that she had a low bar.

Ouch... well, let's translate that to how she is hearing it:

"You have a low bar for the men you date. However, you aren't showing a lot of interest in me. So I guess I don't even meet that low bar."

Rather than tear her down, try building her up:

"You seem to have pretty exacting standards in men. I'm honored I make the cut " [simply just assuming outright here that you have already made the cut]

I told her that I enjoyed being single, and thought it gave the opportunity for many adventures, and that it wasn't something I wanted to give up (BF disqualifying, as per Ricardus). But I told her aside from initial looks, I liked girls who had a passion and drive.

Boyfriend disqualifying is good.

However... you just told her her standards suck.

Why would she care what your standards are?

I realize you're still getting these pieces mixed in there. It is good you are trying out new things.

The next step once you're comfortable using the different pieces is going to be fitting them into the right places.

A good seduction is like a nice patchwork quilt. All the various patches you sew it fit together well and work nicely to create the overall thing.

If the edges don't meet up or the patterns clash, it doesn't work nearly as well. Need to get it all lined up and making sense.

Boyfriend disqualifiers should either come very early on, before she is in an intimate conversation with you and already possibly thinking of you as a boyfriend, or if it's later on you want to be subtle about them so she has to figure it out on herself (rather than just you telling her you "don't want to give up" being single).

At this point we had finished our second drink, and she suggested we call it. In retrospect, I should have suggested a pull on a high note, instead of right as we were leaving. She refused, but said we should get a rain check on it.

I hope what I've pointed out here helps clarify a bit.

Again -- great that you are boyfriend disqualifying; great that you are working to make things sexual.

Now you need to focus that more: make the sexual talk about you and her... with a focus on either her chasing you or her submitting to you.

Say things that build her and you both up (she has high standards, and you're honored you make the cut), or that put you and her in an intimate position (you're going to pin her while wrestling, and she doesn't even want to know what she'll have to do to get back up).

If you'll disqualify yourself as a boyfriend, do it early, or do it subtle (and let her figure it out herself, rather than you outright tell her).

Make those changes and you'll have a much tighter middle game.

Chase

 

[Kvothe]

@Chase

Tattoos are pretty personal. Not sure if you did more than look at it, but can be a good opportunity to deep dive her: "So why'd you get inked?"

Can go into cold reads: "You know what I've noticed about people with visible tattoos, is they have a tendency to not care about the rules as closely as other people. I think that's a good thing. Because if everyone follows the rules, all the time, what you get is a bunch of very boring people."

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I went into the why, but your cold read would have been much better. Saving to my arsenal.

Here's a better way to deal with this scenario:

HER: blah blah walked in on such-and-such famous celebrity right in the middle of going doggystyle on some girl.

YOU: Yeah, that didn't turn you on, huh?

... mixed with giving her a sexy look and sliding closer to her, so she knows you approve of her being turned on.

Another way to respond to it:

HER: blah blah walked in on such-and-such famous celebrity right in the middle of going doggystyle on some girl.

YOU: What a jerk for not locking his door. We should go over to his apartment and do that to him. He'll walk into me doggystyling you right on his silk sheets, and you can look him in the eye and tell him "This is for making me see that, jerk!"

There are all kinds of fun ways you can make this about you and her, without having to joke about her wanting to shag some guy she probably didn't really want to shag, and making her feel like you are pushing her away and punishing her for telling something sexual to you.

Jesus, haha, yes both of these are far better than what I said. Thinking about saying something akin to the second suggestion makes me feel really uncomfortable, which is a sign that I should probably start doing it more. What's the tonality and facial expression for that?

All of the suggestions you made to improve teasing are really, really useful, I appreciate the feedback. I do need to improve on making the teasing about the two of us getting together for sure.

"Do you have a type" is just... this is not usually a question you want to ask women.

The reasoning behind asking this question is to find out more about her and her past relationship history (which I think is something you mentioned in an article you generally find out really early on). I'm not sure the best way to get onto this topic though, would love to hear your thoughts.

If you'll disqualify yourself as a boyfriend, do it early, or do it subtle (and let her figure it out herself, rather than you outright tell her).

How do you do it subtly?

 

[Chase]

Kvothe-

Jesus, haha, yes both of these are far better than what I said. Thinking about saying something akin to the second suggestion makes me feel really uncomfortable, which is a sign that I should probably start doing it more. What's the tonality and facial expression for that?

Shaking your head, mock disgusted scoff, mischievous look in your eyes: "[scoff] What a jerk for not locking his door."

Half-conspiratorial tone, half playful: "We should go over to his apartment, and do it to him."

Explanatory tone, with an expansive hand gesture or two to show you're explaining something: "He'll walk in to me doggystyling you right on his silk sheets"

Squint, lean in, grin: "And you can look him in the eye and tell him"

Same as above, but emphatically, the way she might say it in that situation: "'This is for making me see that, jerk!'"

(writing out delivery in descriptive language like this makes me wish I had a video studio set up. Because what you can write in 5 minutes here you can film in 15 seconds. Maybe it's better written out though, hard to say)

The reasoning behind asking this question is to find out more about her and her past relationship history (which I think is something you mentioned in an article you generally find out really early on). I'm not sure the best way to get onto this topic though, would love to hear your thoughts.

I believe you mean this article: Past Relationships: Where to Go (and Where Not to) on a Date.

In that article, my focus was on women bringing up the topic of their past relationships, and 'cornering' you on them.

e.g., the girl you're deep diving about why she moved to town, and she starts talking about how she moved there to be with this guy, but then he dumped her. And she does not really want to go off that topic. And it is not really a topic you can just joke about, because she's still smarting over it. So how do you handle that?

I'm not generally in favor of bringing up past relationships at all during dates.

I do definitely find it out early on once I'm sleeping with a girl. After we've shagged a few times I have her tell me all about all her past relationships. And then I look for gaps and inconsistencies and have her tell me about those too. I talked about that here: Why Her Past Matters If You Want Something Serious. Of course I am doing it in a very non-judgmental way (and I genuinely am just in general curious about her past relationships. Human relationships are just interesting).

During dates though, very dicey topic if you are going to bring it up. I would not do that unless you committed to building some sort of routine around it.

Academia even found support for this in a recent bit of scientific research:

Females also viewed conversation topics such as discussion of past relationships as a negative indicator of their date’s attraction to them. This corroborates the findings of the study, as females wanted the conversation to be focused on themselves. Not only are outside topics not as favorable, but bringing up a previous romantic entanglement signaled that the man is not attracted to them. An implication of these results would be to steer clear of past relationships.​

So -- deal with it if she brings it up.

If she doesn't, probably best to let that sleeping dog lie.

At least, until after you've slept with her.

How do you do it subtly?

You tell her things about yourself that disqualify you as a boyfriend.

Such as that you just got out of a relationship and are honestly so relieved to be single again. Or that you've been bouncing around a lot, and you're never certain how long you'll be in any one place.

Then let her think about it for herself and decide "Ohhh... he is not going to work as a boyfriend. Oh no."

You haven't pushed it on her. She decided it herself. So it doesn't feel as if you're pushing her away.

Then, provided she still finds you sexually attractive enough, you will have cleared the way toward a far more casual tryst.

Chase

 

[Cody Lyans]

This feels like asd to me. Gotta add in some verbal destressors, meaning, illustrate that you don't expect anything from her and genuinely just want her to be herself and feel free.
And go more the route of investigating how free she'd like to be vs is, and do not push her on it, but make her get ideas.

I would close by saying that I am too comfy around her and if she wasn't a Lil stand offish maybe I would get caught off guard. Then pull her in for a cuddle