Transportation vs. the Provider Role

[ThePhoenix]

 
Hard Theoretical Problem

So, we know the how and why of not paying for dates, and I believe it quite firmly, based both on science and on my own experiences, both naive ones and informed ones. I've seen it rather aptly put, "alpha fucks, beta bucks!"

But how does transportation to and from dates fit into this paradigm? Remember, transportation has economic value!!

Viewed in extreme, I'd actually almost wonder if driving out some far distance to pick up a girl who is not willing to meet half way sets a bad frame. Then again, a lot of successful pulls seem to happen that way, so maybe this little micro-providership falls below the radar just fine. (There is also the matter that literally meeting half way is actually bad for seduction for obvious logistical reasons.)

But the question becomes far less academic when the date transportation is actually being paid for as a service, and indeed I am right at this moment staring this question in the face.


Practical Situation Background

So, things with the Kenyan girl I recently met took a turn for the better. I still have to update the FR accordingly. She showed solid interest for a date and was very prompt in answering logistics questions.

However, it so turns out she's at the far edge of an adjacent city, typically close to an hour's drive from me.

Earlier I had asked her about her transportation, and she said, "currently, it's not flexible", but mentioned the possibility of getting a car "in one week" (such cute English, lol). She indicated she's currently just using Uber and Lyft.

Given my present inability to drive, I really wanted to be able to suggest somewhere a short walk from her home, being that transportation would then be a non-issue, since I myself don't give a shit and will generally use any combination of diesel rail, underground, bus, biking and maniacal walking. (I once walked 58km/36mi just for the hell of it!)

Alas, my digital recon seemed to suggest that the most promising date location anywhere near this girl is a very large mall about 4mi/7km from her. I'm sure she's not walking that, much as I would. I assume she would probably Uber it, which is about $10, though a bus would be $4 and 16 min. or so, depending on her exact spot.

I decided to feel out if she'd make her own way to that mall. I once had a cute Jamaican girl come meet me via public transit from way the fuck farther than that, so I figured it was worth a shot. (In retrospect I am starting to think said girl wanted my dick baaadly... ahh, how stupid I was!!) I asked this one:

me: wow it's almost farmland.. not many places to meet there. Is [big mall] near enough to you?

her: Yes, but it's a 12 minute drive

me: Haha that's what we get for working from home... neither of us drives! Well, u know ur area better so I'm open to suggestion (;

She didn't answer.

To be honest, I actually started getting a little pissed off with women... it feels like most of them won't lift a finger to meet even if they want to. Like, what the fuck. Anyway. (This reminds me of a complaint my friend told me a while back, about girls in our city.. that they are so entitled, they will make him drive all the way across the city; they won't meet half way. I have read this city is terrible for game.)


How Can Ride Payments Possibly Work??

I don't mind spending some cash to facilitate a pull, BUT, I don't want to frame myself into the provider role. Which means I can't spend that cash in a manner that's visible to her.

My best idea was to get a guy to play the role of my personal driver. (Credit to Seppuku for suggesting this to me!) I liked this approach because I could easily frame it that he drives for me anyway on some kind of arrangement where I'm not paying for these rides specifically. There was a particular guy I had in mind because he drives, is not genuinely busy a lot of the time, could probably use the money, and we know each other well. Unfortunately, he considered all this picking up some girl I met last week business highly irregular, didn't take well to the inherent itinerary and timing uncertainties, and was just generally cynical. So far he wouldn't even give me a price. Well, doesn't help he's a depressive. He also threatened to reveal that beneath the facade of normalcy I'm a Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. Said she had a right to know. Gee, thanks.... I'd seriously think he was jealous I might actually get laid, except he's gay... LOL.

So, back to Uber, but now I have no idea how the hell to work this. I could grab an Uber from the mall, after casing it out, and then ostensibly pick the girl up on my way to the mall. So far, so not entirely terrible... it looks like picking her up was just a little detour. Wellllll, except for the fact that I just travelled 47km/29mi for her and she did jack, other than sitting through a 12 minute ride she didn't even pitch in for.

But what when we go back? If it's to her place, the Uber ride will be cheap, but that's beside the point. The point is, Who is paying? I'd suggest we split, but I'll look Uber cheap (ha ha). But if I just pick it up, now I'm the provider.

This is a much different problem than who pays for coffee. And yes, I worry about that, too. But usually, it just works out. Either we don't actually wind up buying anything, or she just offers, or I got there first and already have mine and she just goes and gets hers without any questions. But one person or the other has to order and pay for an Uber, so you can't just elide actually working it out explicitly.

The situation gets a lot worse if we end up coming to my place. Much as I have better pretences to invite her and in fact she's already shown interest in them, now we're talking a $60+ fare one way. I wouldn't complain about spending that to get the girl over EXXXXXCEPT that now we're really getting into provider territory unless we split it, but at once I don't know if she'll be too eager to spend that. I don't think she's totally broke, but she's a single mom. (I'm trying to do daytime, while her kid is in daycare.)

And what of getting her home?!?! That's another $60+ Uber fare and this time I'm not even on that ride! I'd seriously feel like a cuck, paying for her ride home by herself. (Maybe it's not so bad if I have her walking funny...) But if we split that too then she's ultimately paying $60 in fares, which I'm guessing from her "but it's a 12 minute drive" remark, she might not be up for.

So just how the hell do I work this????????


This shit is seriously driving me into the arms of Mother Africa. If I was in Nairobi, not only would the concentration of women around me I'd actually want to approach increase tenfold, but I also wouldn't have to wait a God damned year to be able to drive. If I lose this pull to logistics, then barring some brilliant suggestion, I'm probably going to stop pursuing women here and begin planning for a move in earnest.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Phoenix,

You need to get your priorities. Do you want to get laid or not? This whole discussion about not being a provider shouldn't make you lose sight of what you want to achieve. You'd better be a provider that fucks a beautiful girl, than a lover that fucks nobody. LOL.

Also, you need to keep in mind the congruence to who you are. Not paying for dates or taxis makes some sense when you're a broke twenty years old, dating another broke twenty years old. But men in their forties are *expected* to have some comfortable level of income - at least enough to pay for a coffee or a normal taxi ride. If you don't, you may be viewed as a life loser - even worse for your karma. Men still derive their value from building their empire. A twenty year old broke guy still has the potential to become successful. A forty year old broke guy is a horse that has already lost the race. You don't want to be there.

So in my opinion you can afford to read the "don't pay for dates" a little less literally.

I certainly don't, with ZERO qualms about it. I foot the bill on the dates. And when I'm too tired to drive her back late at night, I put her in the taxi and pay the driver. She's usually 15 or 20 years younger than myself, and earning much, much less than I do. Anything else wouldn't make sense. What I DON'T do, however, is paying for gifts, or nice dinners, or footing their bills, or giving them their pocket money or other stuff that they would get from a sugar daddy.

There are other ways of ruling yourself out of the provider category. If you are able to take her to bed within two hours into the first date ever, that will put you far out of the beta orbiter / provider / usual lame guy. On the first date, I'm just the confident, sexy guy, and after an hour or two I take her home and escalate. That is significantly different from the typical date with a provider. And all subsequent dates, if any, will be straight in my home, and bedroom.

So, do these girls view me as a provider? I guess more as a conspicuous consumption guy.

In your specific case, you cannot assume that she will be willing to walk 7 km to the mall and back. Even if she does, you will never see her again after that. She's living in a different city and the Uber ride will be the inherent cost. But at this stage, you want to get the date, attempt the pull, and try to get her to bed. So, leave all considerations of fairness (you travel all the way and she rides only 7 km) or provider/lover, make it easy to yourself, pay the Uber and try pulling her to HER home. The alternative would be to give up altogether without even trying, not an alternative in my opinion. To pull her to her home, you could for example gently ask her to invite you "for a last coffee", or for a cooking date, or what have you. Since you live far away, you have the perfect excuse.

Now, the Uber cost would certainly become a real problem in the long term IF you get her and want to pursue with her. I suggest that you keep her as "learning seduction" exercise, but otherwise you will have to figure out a solution when you get there. But get there first.

Seppuku

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey Seppuku,

Thank you for the advice!

Was hoping to have an update from trying that out but was ill for a bit and then the girl has again become not fully responsive so haven't managed to schedule anything yet. (She's always been hit and miss on text so I'm not sure it means anything.) This one is a little awkward because I already brought up the issue, so now I might have to say something to change her expectation that it's going to be an issue. On one hand I'd think to tell her not to worry, I'll pick her up, but now it almost feels like I'd come across as saying that in desparation because she won't come out otherwise. So maybe I lost this one.

I always get shocked responses on my age, so for ones who haven't pressed for it, I'm not sure the expectations would be there. But as you point out, better to err on the side of getting her home rather than looking cheap or broke.

As for trying not to pay for anything, I do tend to get kind of absolutist at times.

It didn't help that I have a friend who is a bona fide sugar daddy who tried to tell me that's the only way I'll get hot women... so I became extremely sensitive to spending any money on women. I soooo want to eventually show him I can do it without spending a dime. But I have to remember, you can't run before you can walk. And they're not all the same, so for some women in some situations it won't be possible.

I will say that the most promising prospects so far actually were spending money on me, net, (though not much), but I still need many more data points, so I should be a little more flexible sometimes.

I suspect it mostly boils down to convenience. It must be convenient for her. Ones that have their own vehicle, I've so far not seen any problem with zero expenditure (other than my failing to escalate!) So the best scenarios to show my friend up will be, she has a car, she lives very close, she lives very close to suitable date spots, or I can seduce her directly where I meet her. Other situations I may have to just accept as valuable experience even if I can't brag about not spending a dime.

To pull her to her home, you could for example gently ask her to invite you "for a last coffee", or for a cooking date, or what have you.

Good idea. What I sometimes try to do, is earlier on, look for and ask her things that might lead to something that would give me an excuse, such as pets, collections, strangest thing she owns, etc. (One time actually the girl volunteered an excuse for me, but stupid me at the time didn't recognize it!) But I've had some cases where this search for an excuse came up dry, and I used to give up in those cases. So it's good to have such a backup plan that doesn't depend on her particulars.

Phoenix