What Is She Thinking Now?

[foggy]

Hello there friends. Today I’m looking for advice on a situation regarding a girl I fucked up with. The crash and burn hurts ssooo0o0o0 bad….but the great part is that I know it was for the greater good of my journey. I’m aware of some sticking points now. And I learned a lot from this chick.

What I’m Looking For From You

• - I want to hear what you guys would have done in my situation, if you didn’t have feelings for this girl.
  - I want to hear your opinion of her thought processes, and what she’s thinking now
  - What would you do next?
  - I also want advice on how to not let feelings get in the way in the future.
  - Anything else

Backstory

I’ve known Rachel for a few years now. We have each other on facebook, but never met in person. A few years back we made plans for her to come over to my place. BUT...I ditched her. We remained in contact, talking occasionally. A few months ago I started talking to her again, wanting to make some plans with her. She was playing games...being all wishy washy. You know, giving me “maybes” and stuff like that and being suspicious about my intentions. Just overall being difficult. Looking back, I was borderline chasing her. I stopped talking to her and we fell out of contact again.

I Saw You The Other Day

The other day, she messages me on facebook out of the blue and says to me, “I saw you the other day.” Girls say this stuff for a reason! I knew she liked what she saw and wanted to hang, but I wasn’t about to be the first one to ask. Instead I wanted to experiment and see if I could get HER to ask ME to hang out. I was dropping hints, but it wasn’t working, so I said, “let’s hang.” She said she was down, and we continued making plans:

rach: what do you wanna do?
fog: good question
rach: hahaha
fog: we could get smashed off some coffee and watch old cartoons
rach: lol do you drink wine
fog: ya
rach: wines always a fun time
fog: split a bottle with me
rach: maybe i will
rach: where do you live

She was making things real easy by suggesting we do something more PG-13 and inviting herself over to my house.

She Comes Over

The next night a very testy Rach is in my room with me. We are clicking really well, and in no time at all we can’t keep our hands off each other.

However, it seems she put me in the boyfriend zone right away. She was:

1. talking about us hanging out again in the future,
2. talking about how happy she was to be with me,
3. complimenting me a lot,
4. cuddling me, and
5. giving me strong resistance (wouldn’t let me take off her shirt and pants)

This is similar behaviour to several other girls I’ve been with who have dumped me into the boyfriend zone quickly. In the past, I have scared these girls off by acting like a fuckboy. I would try to rush them and be a little too mysterious. Now if I get these signs, I take it as a sign to not be so fuckboy-ish (a vibe I’m still working on)

So I got in the mindset that there was no need to rush and that I could fuck her another time. HOWEVER, at one point she says, “do you want to fuck me?” I said “yes.” But I didn’t fuck her. I didn’t realize this was an escalation window….

She also wanted to sleep over. I didn’t let her. She left without us becoming lovers (A glaring mistake).

Attainability Problems

I was being quite challenging early on - this was a mistake. My attainability was perfect to begin with, so being a challenge made my attainability get a little bit too low I feel. Later on, whenever I started complimenting and expressing interest in her, she would have a very relieved look on her face - no doubt because my attainability went up when I did this.

When we were cuddling, she was talking about the time I ditched her. When it came up, she started getting distant. Wouldn’t look at me. Same behaviour happened when she was talking about how bad of a kid she used to be.

We were talking about sex playlists, and she interpreted what I said as me being a fuckboy. She said it worried her that I might be a manwhore. UGH. I can’t remember exactly what I said, I think I unconvincingly said something like “I used to be a player but not anymore.”

The Start of The Feelings

I had a pretty strong emotional and physical reaction towards her for a few days after we hung out. I felt high and at times I felt like puking. Thanks for the chemicals, brain. As soon as I started feeling these feelings, I knew I was in big trouble because in the past, I’ve let emotions get in the way of my mindset and strategy. There was no way I was gonna be able to treat her like a regular girl….

Follow Up

The next day, I text her.

FEB 7TH- 10:47AM

fog: yesterday was sooo much fun

12:32PM

rachel: it was, i like hanging out with you

7:38pm

rachel: do you wanna see me again?

10:43pm

fog: yes

FEB 8TH - 10:09AM

rachel: good

Thoughts At This Point In Time

My mind was whirling with uncertainty. Some thoughts of mine at this point:

WOW I really like her. When are we going to see each other again?
I really wanna ask her to hang out again…but don’t wanna come across as needy or overeager…I’ll just wait a few days.
Besides, if she was a girl I didn’t have feelings for, I’d just ignore her till she gets into contact with me again.
But I wonder how my attainability is...She mentioned that she was worried that I was a fuck boy. And I felt like my attainability was a little bit low when we hung out. I don’t want her to go into auto rejection by ignoring her, so I should be be a little bit easier to get. And take the lead and make some plans to hang out with her. Oh darn, I better do something.

So i texted her (rather unemotionally) to make some more plans…..

Feb 9th - 5:20PM

fog: are you going out of town this weekend?
rachel: next weekend

7:58PM

fog: lets try to get together before then

Feb 10th - 8:57PM

rachel: ok I’m down

February 11 - 12:40PM

fog: does tuesday evening work for you?

5:51PM

rachel: we shall see

Usually I’d ask something along the lines of “what’s your schedule like this week?” instead of asking if a specific date worked. She’s in school and told me her schedule last week, and she’s got no classes tuesday evening. I thought…. if this girl is actually interested in me as much as she seems to be, then she’d ditch her plans if she had any and come see me. Or at least she’d suggest an alternative time to hang if tuesday evening didn’t work. Felt pretty safe. But “we shall see?” THAT’S IT?

My mind went into overdrive!!!! Why is she being like this???

Immediately I’m thinking it’s got to do something with my attainability. I missed a window or something. She was likely very excited after we hung out, but then the emotions died down and now she doesnt even care about me. I should have hung out with her again the next day.

And the above initial text exchanges took place hours and hours apart, sometimes it even took a day to get back to each other.. Obviously we were both replying slow to each other on purpose, I felt like it was a game to not show too much interest in each other. I knew she was seeing the texts - when we were hanging out, she was on her phone, a bit.

I felt like I had to be a little warmer with her, show some interest, and have a real time conversation with her. I started texting her pretty fast, and she was replying quickly too.

February 11th (Ct’d)

(5:56PM)

fog: okay can’t wait!! need a healthy dose of some of your purple (inside joke)
fog: and bubblyness
rachel: my purple eh
fog: YESS omg purple is my favourite colour
fog: but if you’re talking about PURPLE purple, yes i need some of your purple
rachel: what does PURPLE purple mean?
fog: I think we both know what PURPLE purple means
rachel: no explain
fog: you’ll know for sure what it means the next time it happens
rachel: tell meeee
fog: i will give you a hint
fog: are you ready rachel
rachel: yes
fog: if PURPLE purple were a flavour of ice cream, it would not be vanilla, chocolate or any other plain flavour
rachel: interesting

OOOF. Sort of awkward. Here I change the subject. I wanted to do some deep diving, but was gonna transition into it with some light conversation

fog: ya so i noticed you dont really use capitals
rachel: i do not
fog: have you always had an aversion to big letters or did you experience a traumatic event that caused it
rachel: lmfao none of the above
fog: get outta here
rachel: im bored

She’s bored!? What….am I boring her, or did my vague flirting turn her on and now she wants to hang?

fog: ya same
fog: are you thinking what I’m thinking
rachel: what are you thinking
fog: lets hang
rachel: i really dont feel like busing
fog: yaaaaa i feel that
rachel: its snowy and cold out
fog: i knowww like go away weather
fog: i have an idea though
rachel: what is that
fog: cab here and also you are more than welcome to stay the night. makes things easier
rachel: ahhh i dunno
fog: hmmm ok
rachel: i just dont have any money
fog: oh true ya too bad you couldnt pay in something similar, like apples
rachel: ill just sell my body
fog: see thats what i was thinking
fog: cab drivers love you-know-what
rachel: ****emoji with a sly smile***

At this point I’m thinking two things:

1. She replied with an emoji, it’s not a lot of effort on her part
2. The conversation has been a little sexual so far, and now I’m REALLY worried that she’s thinking I’m a fuck boy. I’m REALLY worried about my attainability. So I thought….I really gotta do something here to turn it around to show I’m actually genuinely interested in her.

THIS WAS PROBABLY MY BIGGEST MISTAKE.

I read on reddit how hector used some beta behaviour to get a girl out of auto rejection. I thought, WOW, what a great idea! I will use this with Rachel:

fog: listen i need to be honest with you about something
rachel: whats that
fog: its whats on my mind right now
rachel: tell me
fog: im a little bit emotionally cold with women sometimes…and i pretend not to care, even though my heart could be glowing
rachel: well thanks for telling me
rachel: im not emotionally ready for anything right now
fog: ya definitely same right now because of my fickleness ((i told her i was fickle when we hung out)

But when we hung out, she was acting like she wanted to date……?

rachel: fickleness
fog: ya whoever made up that word must have been doing alcohol at the time
rachel: doing alcohol
rachel: you kill me

Now I really feel like a bitch for using this beta strategy. Probably did it wrong. Sort of implied I liked her - that’s how she interpreted it. I did this under the assumption that my attainability was low - but her words say that there was no attainability problem to begin with.

fog: omg
rachel: omg what
fog: you’ve done an alcohol right?
rachel: no never
fog: thank goodness. i did 16 and fell in a creek
fog: my friends actually wouldn’t let me live that one down for years
rachel: hahaha i have a few stories too
fog: tell me a shorter one
rachel: i cant even think of a good one right now
fog: i get it, the stories are something you are ashamed of
rachel: lmfao somewhat yes

Here I stopped replying. I knew where it was going. She refused to tell me a story, blababla, she’s not putting in any effort. I could continue teasing her about it but it would just be better to ignore her. My current plan is to not chase, ignore her, learn from my mistakes, and move on. Even though it hurts a little bit. UNLESS, I can somehow figure out what I did wrong, and reverse it.

I mentioned I am aware of some sticking points; here they are:

- Doing whatever it takes to bang a girl the FIRST time I hang out with her will save so much headaches in the long run.
- I need to move quicker after the first time I hang out with a girl. I need to capitalize on positive emotions she is feeling, and not let them die down.

So, just to recap, here's how you can help me:

What I’m Looking For From You

• - I want to hear what you guys would have done in my situation, if you didn’t have feelings for this girl.
  - I want to hear your opinion of her thought processes, and what she’s thinking now
  - What would you do next?
  - I also want advice on how to not let feelings get in the way in the future.
  - Anything else

 

[Hue]

Whattup G,

There's A LOT in here, so it's kind of hard for me to summarize, but

It looks like your initial problem was not fucking her, followed by low-medium attainability (to be somewhat expected from a fuckboy) and failing (a) shit test(s). Then as you attempted to raise it you made mistakes in texting that took persistence to chasing, at least in your delivery. The teeter-totter of attainability is a bitch, man.


From what I can tell, your biggest and initial problems were here:

his is similar behaviour to several other girls I’ve been with who have dumped me into the boyfriend zone quickly. In the past, I have scared these girls off by acting like a fuckboy. I would try to rush them and be a little too mysterious. Now if I get these signs, I take it as a sign to not be so fuckboy-ish (a vibe I’m still working on)

So I got in the mindset that there was no need to rush and that I could fuck her another time. HOWEVER, at one point she says, “do you want to fuck me?” I said “yes.” But I didn’t fuck her. I didn’t realize this was an escalation window….

I've fucked this up as well. The fuckboy vibe can really dig you a grave. One thing I've been working on to conquer this is to really try and lose myself in the moment with the girl - not to just ask questions that are about her and then qualify her on them, but to really feel, at least for a moment the piece of her I've just discovered (at the right time - when she WANTS to see *some* attainability).

Then you missed what might have been a shit-test and and escalation window in one. "Do you want to fuck me?" could be angled a number of ways, and answered a number of ways. It could be a hot, horny, and clear escalation window. It could be a total shit-test and mean "do you just want to fuck me?".

Judging from the situation, I would guess it was a more subtle combination of both. She's horny from hooking up with you and deep down wants to be fucked, but she's worried that you're a player (vibe) or don't really care about her (you flaked that once). You could have taken this as an opportunity to raise your attainability with something more romantic about how you want to fuck her for the right reasons, because she's not only stunning, she's considerate / down to earth / whatever reason you like her. Then, once you can see she knows she cared about (cue doe eyes), you can hyper-sexualize verbally and get more explicit in somewhat of a concluding er.. thesis lol (but both of which you keep nonverbal communication (touch, look, facial expression) in check). "...so yes I want to fuck you. Nothing else makes more sense to me than stuffing your wet pussy with my cock right now. Does that answer your question?" That could have covered your bases of attainability and LMR - but again I'm just going off what you wrote.


And, here:

When we were cuddling, she was talking about the time I ditched her. When it came up, she started getting distant. Wouldn’t look at me. Same behaviour happened when she was talking about how bad of a kid she used to be.

As far as ditching her, that's something you need to explain yourself, then then leave it at that. "Rachel, we've been over this. I had a mountain of projects going on, and I couldn't make the date. We're also here right now and enjoying each other's time I thought. --> *change the subject*". You don't wanna let her hang on that and spend forever talking about a negative experience with you. If she does, be aloof. Maybe even get up and pour some water for yourself / get something out of the fridge is she's being a total iceberg. You've explained, what happened happened, and its over. No more discussion needed (a flake isn't a huge deal, so long as you reasonably and timely explain). Girls have done this to me and after you set the frame, then back off, they will come to your frame after they run it through their head some more.

We were talking about sex playlists, and she interpreted what I said as me being a fuckboy. She said it worried her that I might be a manwhore. UGH. I can’t remember exactly what I said, I think I unconvincingly said something like “I used to be a player but not anymore.”

You validate her sense that you might have some playerness in you. That can turn into a seed that grows, if you let it. And your response, frankly, sounds like something a fuckboy might say (if that was the general vibe, you validating it then trying to tangent away for an unconvincing reason) which further validates her fuckboy senses.

But before her accusation, she said that you were probably a fuckboy because of your sex playlist? Or because you brought up sex-playlists in general? At this point it seems like she's screening you pretty hard. One thing you might have wanted to do is to ask her about the leap she's making (if that's the one she made, I can't fully tell), "so you think I'm a fuckboy because I like having sex to Flume? *laughs* okay." and then get her talking / change the subject. Ask her about her sex playlist, or what kind of music she likes having sex to. Sex playlists are a totally normal thing.

Or was it some other things you said and maybe forgot to include?


Then things progress to..

I had a pretty strong emotional and physical reaction towards her for a few days after we hung out. I felt high and at times I felt like puking. Thanks for the chemicals, brain. As soon as I started feeling these feelings, I knew I was in big trouble because in the past, I’ve let emotions get in the way of my mindset and strategy. There was no way I was gonna be able to treat her like a regular girl….

Should You Treat Her Regular or Special?


When you moved on to texting, you tried to do some things that simply should have been done over a phone call. Also you could have cut a lot of thread in your texts, but instead you have a decently long conversation. It's fucked me way too many times in the past to try and "win over" somebody through text. Plus, I like the emotional exchange of phone calls

This:

fog: okay can’t wait!! need a healthy dose of some of your purple (inside joke)
fog: and bubblyness
rachel: my purple eh
fog: YESS omg purple is my favourite colour
fog: but if you’re talking about PURPLE purple, yes i need some of your purple
rachel: what does PURPLE purple mean?
fog: I think we both know what PURPLE purple means
rachel: no explain
fog: you’ll know for sure what it means the next time it happens
rachel: tell meeee
fog: i will give you a hint
fog: are you ready rachel
rachel: yes
fog: if PURPLE purple were a flavour of ice cream, it would not be vanilla, chocolate or any other plain flavour
rachel: interesting

probably doesn't have nearly the impact you think it might be / were going for. The same dialogue over the phone (with your voice) might have shown you more response. Also, it might make her responses seem less cold. You get a real idea of how she's actually responding.

10 Times to Call Her Instead of Text


But then you kept texting her and tried to persist through her noncompliance..

fog: lets hang
rachel: i really dont feel like busing
fog: yaaaaa i feel that
rachel: its snowy and cold out
fog: i knowww like go away weather
fog: i have an idea though
rachel: what is that
fog: cab here and also you are more than welcome to stay the night. makes things easier
rachel: ahhh i dunno
fog: hmmm ok
rachel: i just dont have any money

..and not get the message. And your replies are incongruent. That's when persisting turns to chasing.

fog: listen i need to be honest with you about something
rachel: whats that
fog: its whats on my mind right now
rachel: tell me
fog: im a little bit emotionally cold with women sometimes…and i pretend not to care, even though my heart could be glowing
rachel: well thanks for telling me
rachel: im not emotionally ready for anything right now
fog: ya definitely same right now because of my fickleness ((i told her i was fickle when we hung out)

Again, this is something that should not be done with text. Hector implemented this tactic over the phone, if my memory serves me. Your attempt to show your "player with a golden heart" is instead received as pleadfully convincing her to meet up with you, which is textbook chasing.

After this the conversation trickles off into text banter, and falls off.

My bad if any of that comes off as rough, but that's how I read it.

I want to hear what you guys would have done in my situation, if you didn’t have feelings for this girl.
- I want to hear your opinion of her thought processes, and what she’s thinking now
- What would you do next?
- I also want advice on how to not let feelings get in the way in the future.
- Anything else

You did have some moments you could have capitalized, like her initial flirty text, "my purple eh (; ". To me that sounds sexual, and could potentially have set you off somewhere better.

I also thought the "you thinking what I'm thinking" and "I have an idea though" could have been good turn around. Honestly I might text a girl that, have her respond, then call her, if I find myself in an appropriate situation in the future.
It sparks curiosity.

Also, she obviously likes hanging out with you in person, so she likes (or, liked - can't say) YOU. It really can be a tough balance when it comes to showing interest, but not too much, but not bullshitting lol. Honestly drives me nuts sometimes. Generally, the only thing I can recommend with that is maintain solid body language (not too eager =/= aloof) and escalation in person, while growing the connection - because if you like her and actually feel it, she's probably right there with you. This just takes time and experience to develop and understand, though homie.

What Is She Thinking Now?

"Man, songbird fog did seem like he was actually into ME the other day, but something seemed off, too. Then his texts made me feel like this more so --> I don't know what he's going for in these texts --> oh he wants me over, I don't feel like doing this right now --> he's chasing me. Let's just text back and have fun with it".

But I'm not a mind reader. Just what I'm pulling from your write up.

As far as what to do next with her.. I would go silent for a week or so, hope she texts you, and if not, cold call her on the weekend. Talk to her, be warm on the phone and then screen for availability (not just directly, "but hey, we should meet" because that's too chasey right now). You probably need to back off a good bit. But you said she's gone next week, so maybe in like two weeks. And honestly it might not be worth investing more time into this girl - but I've been wrong before!


Like everything, treat it as a learning experience. I hope I didn't miss anything and/or misunderstand anything in here. Best of luck bro.



Hue

 

[Seppuku]

Alright. I see Hue gave a significant answer but I avoided to read it so as to not influence my initial reaction.

When I read this, my overall impression is that the problems are not where you think there are. And Songbird my friend, I am going to be a little tough here but I think you need it!

Your main problem is not low attainability. It is overall lack of congruence. A girl will only remark you're a fuckboy because some of your "fuckboy vibe" is not congruent with some other aspects of your behavior. If you were actually and consistently a fuckboy, there wouldn't be a problem, the girls would simply enjoy the ride! Overall, I suspect that your constant worry about "am I attainable? Am I too fuckboy-ish? etc...", if you actually worry about these things in real-time when on date, make you appear less genuine, more gamey, and overall un-congruent.

In fact, the main problem was that you were NOT a fuckboy. She came to your home and gave you a lot of BF/GF talk when in fact she expected you to fuck her. She walked you in the park with mixed signal, got you confused, and you forgot to lead and make things happen. Stop worrying about what she says, and look how she acts: here she came all the way to your bedroom! Don't let anything else confuse you. Don't let her talk you into confusion, and be the one leading. And lead her to the bed.

Remember this: No matter the circumstances, you cannot afford to have a girl in your bedroom and not try to fuck her! Understand that this is it, you may never get another chance.

The rest is typical aftermath of a failed escalation. You failed to lead when you met her, so now she's going to give you a harder time, e.g. "we shall see".

Immediately I’m thinking it’s got to do something with my attainability. I missed a window or something. She was likely very excited after we hung out, but then the emotions died down and now she doesnt even care about me. I should have hung out with her again the next day.

Not your attainability. You failed to lead to sex, period. Yes, you missed a huge window, and may never get another again. And yes, her emotions died down. That's always like this with girls. You need to take her when her emotions are near the peak. If you let the emotions die down, you risk facing a cold bitch the next day, more often than not. And no, meeting her the next day was probably already too late. You should have made it happen when you had the chance.

That's the reality of girls. I learned this at my own expenses, and wrote about it: The day I finally got it. Only after I finally realized this reality for myself did I started to get consistent success.

I read on reddit how hector used some beta behaviour to get a girl out of auto rejection.

That's super advanced stuff. Don't even think about pulling something like this before you master the basics. Which are:
* Be congruent. No gamey stuff. You are genuinely yourself.
* Be sexy and confident
* Don't let her lead you with BS talk
* Instead, lead her to the bed and seduce her

To your question about not getting feelings. This should not be a problem if you get the habit of fast seduction. In fact, by the time you start catching feelings, it is probably already too late for fast seduction. Feelings come usually later - here it was after she left if I understand right? And of course, there is no problem with catching feelings *after* you seduced her!

The "what would you do next" question, I'm not going to answer that. I have already spent a lot of energy on these Boards trying to help guys who didn't do it right in the first place. It simply doesn't work. So what you are going to do next is take the lesson home and focus on doing it right from the very beginning next time!

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Seppuku]

And now I read what Hue wrote and generally agree. I have a different reading of the "fuckboy" aspect of things, as general non congruence. Fully on board with the rest. The fact that you got so many shit tests in texting, after the meetup, is her making your life harder because of failed escalation. Some other girls wouldn't even worry about texting you at this point.

Seppuku

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hi songbird,

Well, I have a feeling you're a lot more experienced than I, so the only insight I can give you is more theoretical, but hopefully of some use.

It sounds like you're pretty good at seduction, but I am just wondering about what your attitudes about it are. Because, seduction and promiscuity can be viewed in two very different ways:

1. As a means of "cheating the system," like playing a video game with cheat codes in for shits and giggles; or
   
   
2. As the way things are supposed to work, like playing a video game normally while most of the other guys are playing while holding their controllers with boxing gloves on.

If you are thinking like in #1, then this might explain why all of a sudden when you encounter a girl you really, really like, you're afraid of being taken for promiscuous, like a video game cheater would be afraid of getting kicked off the server just when it's getting interesting.

If this is how on some level you're thinking, then I can give you some insight that could help in the long run. This basically agrees with everything Seppuku posted above but may help you to see the origins of that logic.

As much as they will deny it, women are naturally attracted to promiscuous men. In fact, there's a fairly compelling scientific explanation for why this would be the case, which I explained about half-way through this post. They have a biological imperative to mate with promiscuous men. So, very likely, she can't help being drawn to a promiscuous man in the same way as you or I can't help but notice tits and ass - it's programmed into our genes.

Of course, they act like they are repelled by, instead of attracted to, promiscuity. The're acting that way out of social conditioning, not out of any inherent dislike of promiscuous men. It's similar to the "anti-slut defense." They want it, but they have to act like they don't in order to protect their image. That behaviour could also have something to do with attaching themselves to the resources of a beta male; the female maximises her genetic advantage by being inseminated by a promiscuous male but having a non-promiscuous male provide for the offspring.

Chances are, they don't understand any of this consciously (I touched on this earlier in the same post I linked).

There's a ton of science (can dig up links but would take some time) that points to monogamy not being natural, in either gender.

This all of course greatly contradicts societal norms, religion, and basically all of the above. But that is all a smoke screen. Nature is nature.

And the Sexy Son Hypothesis mentioned and explained in the linked thread also strongly suggests that worrying about this particular girl further is probably a waste of time. Once her instincts believe that you are not capable of spreading her genes far and wide, the damage has been done and it's not likely she'll ever see you the same again. I highly doubt she understands it this way consciously, though. Probably, she'll just start to have an "off" feeling about you and feel that she's not as attracted to you now. Kind of like you seeing a picture of a hot model, wanting to fuck her, and then you see her in real life and now she's a 75 year old lady. No matter what she does, you're not going to want her any more. She can never get pregnant.

You're better to put your energies into meeting new girls who you could come to like as much or more!

Glad I found this thread, because when I eventually run into situations like this, I need to be very careful to not fall into the trap of letting a girl make me think that she doesn't want a fuckboy.

Hope my take is of some use.

Cheers,
Phoenix