When do things change?

[Verisimilitude]

I've been reading girls chase for over a year, bought the book and posted a lot on here. But I can't shake the feeling that nothings changed. I haven't gotten much better with women, and while I can see changes in the way I dress, look, think, and act, it just hasn't added up. I don't see any "initial attraction" that I see people around me having. I have the information down. I have a great social intuition now and I can usually see what someone is thinking or when to take a girl home or to move her. It seems like I'm working so hard, and just not getting results. To my knowledge, I'm not horrifically ugly or anything like that, and I don't have a bad reputation.

When do I start seeing results?

 

[diegoC]

I think you might have an issue I have: You are a theory-guy.

I've always been a guy that relies a lot on theory on everything I do. For example, I surf, and I love it. Of course, when I startet out I went to surf, but I kept watching videos, analyzing in slow motion, reading a lot of stuff (how to stand up, how to paddle, how to do a bottom turn). The difference is that I read theory and surfed. Good.

Other example is that I used to play Counter Strike (only game I played a lot). I actually analyzed the recoil of each weapon so I knew how to control it. Of course my friends thought I was crazy. They just shoot and they will get the hang out of it. I'm sure they learned faster to shot well than I did because they just did it while I was over-analyzing things. Of course, I eventually was the guy of my friends who was considered the most skilled player.

Now, when we are talking about girls, well, that's other thing. Relying purely on theory and no taking real action is not going to take you anywhere. I was reading theory like crazy but not practicing in the field. I'm pretty sure you might be doing the same thing. Reading a lot while not doing field work (talking to girls is not as easy as just paddling out or playing CS).

So far, I haven't approach a lot. In a single outgoing, I think my most approaches are like 5. That is NOTHING. So actually, I've just started gaming (field experience) for a little over 2 weeks now (I approached maybe 6 or 7 girls before on the street but I really don't count them because I did it on 3 days, far apart from each other and I didn't keep it up).

If you are in fact a theory-guy, you must start approaching like crazy. It's good that you know a lot now. It will help you troubleshooting your interactions more easily. It will also make you very good at this stuff (I really believe that knowing a lot about something and practicing it makes a real master). On the other hand, it might fuck your interactions (trying everything you know each time).

I have so much theory in my head that I haven't actually tried it (well, I've had some interactions, but too few) in field that I am setting objectives. I should have started today but the AA beat me. Next wednesday (I'll go to a party) is the day or I will kill myself

This is what I will do:

1) Approach as many girls as I can: I think it would be wiser to approach lots of girls and not try to take them home. This way I can practice my conversation skills with different girls. At the end, when I think I've talk to enough girls I may approach one I already had or a new one and try to take her home.

2) Witty/Cocky funny: Right now I usually use direct opener on girls and almost immediately start deep diving when I ask her what she does. I thinks this is to fast even though the girls I talked want to be approached by me(I'm good at picking up the signs when they want me to notice them, or when they are using friends to tell them if I'm looking at them). I really thing before deep diving I should make her relax a little bit before this so this technique must be master.

This are the two things I will focus at the beginning. Once I reached the hook (with small talk/blanter combined with witty/cocky funny) when she is comfortable, relax, and glad of the interaction I will start deep diving in any topic. Now, if I was cocky funny with her job/study at the beginning of the interaction I can come back to that topic and start deep diving (now I am at this point of comfort/chill/good time).

Then I will focus on this:

3) Deep dive: Now that they is comfortable with me she will open gladly and surely invest more. I have noticed in my interactions that usually they where not really helping me (not much investment). They would answer but it was not that good, and I think is because I was deep diving off the bat. I think it makes sense because, even though they wanted me to approach, is way to fast to start digging so quickly in stuff that is more personal and not typically shared (and of course, very few people does deep diving)

4) Chase frames/Sexual frames: Start using them to lighten the interaction. Improve little by little in my capacity to identify moments when I can use chase or sexual frames.

5) Move her: I've never moved a girl. But I haven't done it because I didn't feel my interactions were good and wasn't sure about it (I know that you just have to push sometimes. Now, with this new process of my interactions I promise I will). Well, now that I have a process to keep for my interactions, if I do it well, I'm pretty sure they will be better (essentially: not deep diving right off the bat) and I will feel really comfortable moving.

As you can see, the first two won't overlap each other. So, the only thing I have to think at the start of an interaction is: Make her feel comfortable by being witty/cocky funny. This should be a pretty short time. Then I just have to focus on deep diving and looking for moments for chase/sexual frames. Moving her comes during the interaction and it should be pretty easy to do if I did a good job so far.

Eventually I should take her number in a high point and leave to keep talking to other women and practice with this. Better to talk to 30 women and get 10 numbers -you will improve in your techniques- than talk to one and fuck her. It might be good that you scored, but, being a beginner, do you think it was your game that get you to have sex with her or you just found a girl that really like you, was looking to have sex and your game didn't actually play a lot? Being a beginner in the game, is more likely the second one. Practice a lot each time you go out and, when you feel like it's been a enough and you are thinking about leaving, try to get a girl home.

Remember cccrunner, if you are a theory guy like I am, just go out an approach like crazy and set objectives to improve in certain areas. During your interactions, there might come moments in which you may have to respond to a certain situation that is not part of your objectives… perfect, you know a lot of theory and maybe you will be able to do it fine.


Cheers

 

[trashKENNUT]

cccrunner,

I've been reading girls chase for over a year, bought the book and posted a lot on here. But I can't shake the feeling that nothings changed. I haven't gotten much better with women, and while I can see changes in the way I dress, look, think, and act, it just hasn't added up. I don't see any "initial attraction" that I see people around me having. I have the information down. I have a great social intuition now and I can usually see what someone is thinking or when to take a girl home or to move her. It seems like I'm working so hard, and just not getting results. To my knowledge, I'm not horrifically ugly or anything like that, and I don't have a bad reputation.

When do I start seeing results?

Well the results you getting are the way you dress, look, think and act. and it's important. You get that already. Check 1.

Next, what is you want to look for?

1)Direct Opener
2)Indirect Opener
3)"Are You Single?" Opener
4)Getting Girls number
5)Lessen flake numbers
6)Collect data on women who flake, find you creepy and why.
7)Better ways to improve approach. Like not fully open body language.
8)Go out on simplified dates
9)Deep Diving
10)Chase frame

and the list goes on. Always have your end result in mind. The list is just your guiding steps.

Zac

 

[Verisimilitude]

Its funny...less than ten minutes after I posted this, I got a text from a girl wanted me to come over for the end of the night. I guess moral of the story is never give up. Its really easy for me to get wrapped up in the bad emotions of the moment and forget about the positives.

I am still going to use the suggestions though. Plenty of room for improvement. I'm pretty sure I am a theory-guy. I like what Chase said that every time you talk to a girl you get .01% better and when you get sexually involved, you get 1% better.

 

[Estate]

For me it is just attitude,

My attitude has changed. If I am attracted to a girl, I now try to assume she is equally as attracted. Before I would assume she wasn't.

I noticed a long time ago that my outward interactions with girls was a lot different when I knew they were into me vs. when I didn't.
I was horribly shy and "nice", I wouldn't take any chances with girls I didn't know. Yet, when in a relationship or sleeping with a girl, if I knew she liked me, I'd very rarely act needy or chase her.
What changed it for me was that I needed to take the attitude from when I already knew I had a girl and start using it with girls I had only just met. I feel like I give off a different vibe when I do that and it shows, girls have been more attracted to it.

Maybe I've been slightly more of a "dick". I'm actually not a mean guy and don't treat girls badly at all but I tend to say and do what I want without worrying what she is thinking. If she likes it, great, if she doesn't... well, that's ok too.

There's always an element of faking it 'til you make it. When I just meet a girl I'm attracted to, I still get nervous, I'm still unsure, but I have to give off the vibe that I am not affected. Previously it would show a lot even though I didn't realise it.

 

[Chase]

Its funny...less than ten minutes after I posted this, I got a text from a girl wanted me to come over for the end of the night. I guess moral of the story is never give up. Its really easy for me to get wrapped up in the bad emotions of the moment and forget about the positives.

I'm almost tempted to believe the universe is listening when things like that happen - right when you're like, "I give up... it's NEVER going to work," and then BAM! something cool happens; or, alternately, when you're like, "I've done it! I've totally arrived! I am a complete success!" some massive curve ball comes winding your way. Guess they don't want things getting too easy or too hard...

I am still going to use the suggestions though. Plenty of room for improvement. I'm pretty sure I am a theory-guy. I like what Chase said that every time you talk to a girl you get .01% better and when you get sexually involved, you get 1% better.

I'd be inclined to suspect Diego's got it when he's saying you might be more focused on theory than practice. Which is fine to an extent - it usually means you level up faster once you start actually practicing. However, you won't get any better without putting in the time doing the thing.

It's kind of like trying to learn to play like Beethoven by reading books on being a really good piano player. You'll learn a lot faster if you do; but if you hardly ever play the piano, they still won't make much difference.

The reading's the work smart part of things; the field work's the work hard portion. Combine both in ample enough quantities, and you'll see success start coming.

(the guys you'll see working on girl stuff but struggling the most are usually the ones who are only hitting one of either work smart or work hard; they're the guys who read everything there is, but don't talk to girls much, so they don't improve; or the guys who talk to tons of girls, but just do the same thing over and over and over again without attacking the skill set from a deliberate practice point-of-view and continually focusing on their weak points, so they never get any better. You need both ends of the stick)

Chase

 

[Tyme2k]

it usually means you level up faster once you start actually practicing

I like thinking of game like an actual game, in comparison like an MMORPG:

We all have our avatar that we created in the beginning of our life, we started out not really caring what it looked like we just wanted to live(start playing).
We ran around for a while exploring or just staying in the town(introvert like me) and we thought how much fun it would be to be good like the higher levels.
We realized that there were obstacles that were very challenging and came accross our strategy guide(pickup community).
Now we progress on our journey leveling up as we go. We practice more and come accross many new lessons and obstacles.
We are tested by bosses(instant rejections, long fuse women, tough sets, alpha males, LMR) It may take a while to prevail, but when we do it's rewarding and we gain experience.
We build alliances and enemies.

The best thing about this MMORPG, is we are completely free to do WHATEVER we want.. We can learn as many trades as we have time for, we can have millions of experiences to add to our character and charisma levels. We can be good or evil, we can be sexy, funny, witty, interesting, intelligent, or charming, or ALL. What an amazing game life is.

After writing this I actually feel bad for people that have wasted so much time on RPG games, including myself. We have this one that is amazing, and we have a very limited time to play.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I'm almost tempted to believe the universe is listening when things like that happen

It really was one of those moments. I had to put in some work to get the girl to come out (she was about to go to bed), but after she texted me, I knew I had it in the bag. I actually pulled up your booty call article and went straight from it.

The theory thing is absolutely correct. I'm what people would call book smart but not really street smart. I've found that to be street smart or any other personal interaction, you have to go out and do it. School is winding down for me, but I'm trying to build upon what I have during the summer.

@Estate I agree. Would it be too much of a stretch to say that I really shouldn't care about if I think she likes me r if she doesn't? As in I see a girl I like, I go up to her, and I move things forward, and don't really worry about judging if she likes me in the moment.

 

[Estate]

@Estate I agree. Would it be too much of a stretch to say that I really shouldn't care about if I think she likes me r if she doesn't? As in I see a girl I like, I go up to her, and I move things forward, and don't really worry about judging if she likes me in the moment.

Just before I answer this I have to say one of the WORST trends I see in mainstream PUA forums and why I eventually gave up and landed at this forum.
Guys who begin to see some success with Game begin to realize if they push their own boundaries or beliefs then things begin to happen for them, this is awesome.
But next I've seen/read so many guys take this to extremes and stop believing in social norms, that everyone is a "chode" or an "AFC" or an "AMOG" when to everyone else these are infact, just normal people.
There is a BIG difference to breaking through your own mental barriers and putting yourself out there and actually breaking social norms or rules... there are STILL certain behaviours that are & aren't acceptable in society so don't take it to that extreme.

I have to say this because I've heard of guys telling others to hang around very inappropriate places, actually being removed due to inappropriate behaviour, being taken away by security or worse had the cops called to ask what they were doing as they were unsettling people.... and yet their responce wasn't "Oh, maybe that wasn't very socially adept..." it was "Cops are chodes, they don't know what I know about game".
I just hate this attitude as it just makes guys WEIRD.

So why did I say all that?
Well, here is my answer to your questions:

When you begin talking to a girl, you don't know what she thinks of you yet. In this instance my mind auto-assumed she'd never be interested in me, and despite my trying, it HAD to influence how I appeared and sounded outwardly.
My advice is to try and shake that, it comes with some success so keep plugging away. When you approach, assume you are a cool guy and she should like you until she makes it clear she isn't interested. You will outwardly appear more confident, you'll be more relaxed since she's already attracted to you, right? What would you be scared of talking to her for?

BUT!!!
Don't be the weird guy... When a girl makes it clear she is not interested, don't make her uncomfortable, don't be clingy, don't be stalky.
Sure, you can plough through conversation if you are finding it dificult to win her over. That's ok, she hasn't rejected you, she's probably still making up her mind.

But when a girl either verbally and physically indicates it's not on. I really think guys need to accept that. I see too many guys who don't and it gets creepy.
Assume attraction and more girls than not will actually be attracted to the cool guy talking to them instead of a nervous wreck.
But if she genuinely isn't into you, let her go and talk to the next girl, she'll be more receptive.

 

[diegoC]

After writing this I actually feel bad for people that have wasted so much time on RPG games, including myself. We have this one that is amazing, and we have a very limited time to play.

Love that thought. We are living our own real RPG! (I haven't play one but I know a lot about them, jeje).

 

[Tyme2k]

BUT!!!
Don't be the weird guy... When a girl makes it clear she is not interested, don't make her uncomfortable, don't be clingy, don't be stalky.
Sure, you can plough through conversation if you are finding it dificult to win her over. That's ok, she hasn't rejected you, she's probably still making up her mind.

But when a girl either verbally and physically indicates it's not on. I really think guys need to accept that. I see too many guys who don't and it gets creepy.
Assume attraction and more girls than not will actually be attracted to the cool guy talking to them instead of a nervous wreck.
But if she genuinely isn't into you, let her go and talk to the next girl, she'll be more receptive.

I was just reading a FR journal on RSD nation by a young kid that plows hard core. I get a feeling he is doing these things uncalibrated and comes off in this way for sure. His results are very poor also.

You are extremely calibrated and I love reading your comments.

I do however feel pushing the envelope is pretty important, you can always take a step back/apologize/reapproach, but most of the time if you don't go far enough you just blow yourself out. I find it's best to not care too much how you appear and instead care how you feel. Eventually calibration will come into alignment after a few *Head smacks* and you will be glad you pushed some things too far. I know I have went too far on occasion and more often I don't go far enough. I end up having tons of "what if's" and only one time did the "too far" affect my progression. I was out with a pretty uncalibrated PUA guy that plows hard, which is actually pretty respectable, ended up winging his set too long and turns out the girls new the DJ. After I asked one of the girls if she was always this awkward, the DJ came over and told me to leave, come to find out he's business partners with a good friend of mine and I still have yet to be introduced officially. The only reason this affected my progression is he is a good contact to have in the nightlife I'm building. Otherwise it would have no impact whatsoever, and really didn't change my game.

I only slightly regret this interaction, but yet no repricutions happened. I ended up hooking a nice set later that night and the original girls noticed how calibrated I actually was. They were watching me hard run my set, I probably should have reopened and made amense, but I see that DJ a ton and I know I'll see those girls again. One was insanely hot and maybe I'll bang her down the road who knows lol.

 

[Estate]

I feel it's very much a balancing act.

You DO have to push the limits and boundaries because what you previously thought to be the boundaries were not even close and it limited your success.
So pushing past your own limits and what "most guys do" can often be perfectly acceptable. What I mean by this is leading the interaction, moving the girl, and some banter and sexual talk. You'll get away with a lot more than you would have thought before getting into all this.

But at the same time... a limit is a limit, I feel.
If you are pushing things so much that it is just totally inappropriate to the point it becomes scary or creepy then you've gone too far. The problem when I read other forums is that I see this a lot. Guys being removed by security guards, even FR's where cops were called to question them as girls or others had reported them for being inappropriate in social places. One post I saw a few months back recommended guys hang out around office building in cities and outside or inside the lobby of banks and such places because you'll see a lot of hot business women come in and out.

To me this sounded horrible, they admitted they had been removed by security a few times but laughed it off.... you see, this goes beyond a limiting belief to me. These guys think "someone said I can't hang around lobbies in banks or office buildings in busy cities because it's not allowed so I'm going to break that belief and do it"...
But that sounds all wrong to me... this is an example of something which is NOT socially acceptable IMO. There is a reason people don't do this. It's because these places are heavy on security and unknown people hanging around for unknown reasons are on securities radar in minutes. And with good reason with all the crazy things going on in this world. I just don't think it's a good idea to break social norms like this. You can easily meet these same women at the bars in the financial district any evening after work, or at the dunkin donuts in the morning, or on the subway or walking to work or anywhere else really. While waiting for coffee, you CAN break the norm and chat to a girl in line. It won't come be noticed by other people and doesn't put you on securities radar yet your still pushing boundaries.

It's like guys who always get in fights on nights out, it's never their fault, they'll swear blindly that people always start fights with them for no reason. Yet, I've never been in a bar fight because I just don't put myself in those situations.
Same with these guys... I can go pick up girls without being noticed or reported by security, other shoppers, club patrons or whoever... there is no need to put yourself in that situation to pick up a girl.

An example of pushing it, in a good sense, would be a girl I took home this weekend. As we were getting busy she was a little feisty so I just saw how far she was willing to go. If I got a little kinkier, she would get even more kinkier, until I got to the point where I felt she wasn't comfortable with something, which is fine, just say ok, back up to what you were just doing and continue. In the end it was one of the kinkiest nights I'd spent with anyone because I just gently allowed her to express what she wanted until she fulfilled all she wanted without, just out of the blue, start doing something she'd be uncomfortable with.

I hope that made sense.

Sorry to take this thread on a tangent... this topic was something I got into with some guys on another forum a while back and I literally stopped reading the forum with the amount of FR's and recommendations which were not just pushing boundaries but were actually just weird, creepy but actually suspicious and could not result in anything but being noticed and making people feel uncomfortable with their presence.