Why do resistant people stay in set?

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
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Hi guys, I had hijacked the troll thread of yesterday a bit with this question, but Bismarck has now closed that thread. I had a question about the recent article chase had posted which was actually an answer to the troll OP. But his article made me wonder some additional things too. A couple of fellow board members have answered me and it was appreciated, but I still need more and especially from the big man himself as he was the one writing the article! So I copy paste my original question below

-----------------------

@Chase

Chase I want to zoom in on this little bit from your article:

"If you are with a woman, and you say something sexual to her, and she rebuffs it, but she doesn't leave, who has lost power?

Think about it. Imagine a similar situation, with you as the rebuffer. You are talking to a guy who wants to convince you to invest in his multi-level marketing system. If you just put in $400 today, he will give you a system that will make you at least $1200 within the next two weeks, with minimal work. You tell him no, you know multi-level marketing, and you know it's a scam. There! He's rebuffed! Yet the two of you are still talking. He addresses your concern and sells you some more. You raise another objection. He counters your objection. You are still there, still listening.

Why are you listening to his pitch at all? Why are you a captive audience for this man? You can probably feel that the longer you stay around him, listening to his pitch, the more likely you are to, at some point, tell him, "Oh all right, I'll give it a shot."

Even though you are rebuffing him, the fact that you are still there listening to it means you are gradually leeching power over to him."

---‐----


My question is this. Why DO people stay into conversations like this. I too recently had a MLM guy trying to steamroll me and it was obvious he would never stop trying until I had to become very assertive in a socially suave way because I knew he would abuse the environment against me. Well he buzzed of despite still wanting to try, trying to make it seem like an accident when getting close lol.

Otherwise there was this friend of mine who was about to get conned to pay for an overpriced item (way overpriced), I pulled him out of the situation, told him not to argue to long with people who want to con him. Ironically he made the same mistake with the next salesman who made a huge margin there lol, this time I didnt intervene.

My question is the following. These people, women or people who are about to be doomed by MLM salesmen, why do they still give the other persoon room? Is it lack of being assertive or is it actually needing something from the other party or being in search of something?
 

Chase

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@DarkKnight,

It's a good question.

I saw in the other thread you had a FOMO answer (fear of missing out). That is definitely a part of it.

The other part though is humans are social animals, who have evolved to base a lot of our decision-making off rank and authority. However, there is no unanimous indicator of those things, so we have to look for indirect indicators. Some of the best are confidence and persistence.

When you say 'no' to someone, but that person persists in a confident, cheery, and/or urgent way, unless you are also supremely confident yourself it will cause you to begin to question your decision. I think someone in the other thread mentioned people being low self-esteem or weak, but it isn't even that necessarily. People can be pretty strong most of the time but still be swayed.

Anyone can be swayed, given enough time to sway him.

Take someone with strong rhetorical abilities and stick him in a room with someone else and don't let that other person leave, while also preventing physical violence (so he can't just beat up the guy talking to him if he gets sick of what he's hearing), and sooner or later the guy being talked to will crack. That's why they tell you "don't talk to the police":


The police don't have you in an interrogation room because they want the full truth. They have you in an interrogation room because they want a confession. And it doesn't matter how long you hold out for... if you hold out for 12 hours... if they can get you to 'crack', you're theirs.

You can get STRONG people to crack. Very strong people. My favorite thing in seduction is picking up strong girls. I like really strong, confident, opinionated women. I enjoy when they resist me, it gets me smiling and laughing a bit (it is silly & cute), because I know at some point, so long as I am able to keep them around me, they will crack. The only way for a girl I want to go to bed with to not end up with me in her vagina is to quit seeing me, or to turn me off or annoy me in some way (lol). Otherwise, so long as she's around me, and I still want her, I am going to keep chipping away at her, and it is only a matter of time (usually hours at most) before she cracks.

I will also add you can run into weak people who will not easily crack because they have one VERY high wall somewhere. If you get past that wall, they have no real strength at all and you can get them to do anything. In my experience, generally the people who have one very high wall somewhere tend to be weak people, not strong ones, who have built that wall to protect their soft middles.

The strongest people are those who are able to entertain all kinds of different ideas, and consider them, while still retaining the ability to make up their own minds about them, and are much less influenceable. Even still, these people can be swayed, given enough time and the right approach.

What happens psychologically is past a certain point, the mind 'flips' and begins viewing the person who is persisting as someone to listen to / an authority. As soon as that flip occurs, it is all downhill, and that person is going to get what he wants. The person switches from being a distrusted outsider to a trusted counselor. Whatever the trusted individual recommends, the one who trusts him will at the least seriously consider, and likely ultimately opt to do.

While mental independence plays a big role here, again, everyone has people he trusts, and anyone can be made to trust someone new with enough of the right tactics. Often what makes someone trust another person will vary, so talented salesmen, seducers, and rhetoricians will use a variety of tactics, then monitor the responses to those tactics, to figure out what works best with someone. Then commit to that approach once it's found.

So, it's a little more complicated than strong/weak.

Even with strong people, once you figure out their triggers, you figure out how you can reliably get around their various defenses and open them up to suggestion. The only real defense against it is understanding the mind, seduction, sales, and rhetoric enough yourself you can understand these rhetorical devices for what they are, then on top of that having exposure to the situations and pressures you can find yourself in so you're able to stay calm and rational despite whatever opportunities or threats appear to be present.

Chase
 

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
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1,184
So when I have to summarize:

Persistence and confidence shows an authority frame which sways people because their nature is to defer to authorities. Also there is a fear of missing out. Interesting thing about the isolation and being able to chip at someone's resistance indefinitely during favourable circumstances.

-------------------

I had no idea before what a MLM was, it sounded like a pyramid scheme, but when I mentioned this there was a swift rebuttal which reframed it as legal. Probably practiced routine line. At one point I actually did get curious (so his game did work somewhat) until I noticed that so many facts did not add up. I have to say though the guy was an excellent salesman, whether this was due to him being really good or due to heavy training is something I wonder in hindsight. Probably training. The way they go out on their business reminds me a lot of "routine game". Also when I had to judge the vibe of this seasoned salesman he also came across as someone who is convinced he has special powers and can break any rules. Basically how we behave in social environments because we know we are agile enough to get the best out of an interaction and dodge pushback.

He did everything you mentioned, the cheerful bravado , the "non neediness", the authority frame grabs which were subtle (I immediately disspelled those in suave ways the moment he made them. Not about to let some friendly stranger assume authority... gtfo). Only after I saw that things did not compute and told him I am not interested there came cracks in his game. He became needy and overly persistent despite trying to hide it, then he started to ignore my nonverbal signals for him to fuck off, and here too I can imagine that someone could give him the benefit of doubt "oh he just tries to be friendly and doesnt see my signals". It was clear to me though that he was very conscious with his moves and blatantly disregarded fuck off signals. I have seen hardcore attention seekers who do the same before. He has probably in the past had good results by being pushy like this. The cheerfulness and friendly politeness served also another goal. By being very friendly and very polite he makes it hard for you to be blunt, this is a very conscious tactic, it was so obvious (to me). When I told him to never engage me again, he still tried to engage me later on by making it seem accidental, when I observed his face he still tried to make this cheerful happy impression, but I noticed his ego got involved and he was actually hurt a lot haha.. You modern day snake oil salesman.

What happens psychologically is past a certain point, the mind 'flips' and begins viewing the person who is persisting as someone to listen to / an authority. As soon as that flip occurs, it is all downhill, and that person is going to get what he wants. The person switches from being a distrusted outsider to a trusted counselor. Whatever the trusted individual recommends, the one who trusts him will at the least seriously consider, and likely ultimately opt to do.

I think the guy thought we had passed the above phase! That my mind had flipped, because at one point I saw him make a facial expression of "gotcha!" Weakness in his game was telegraphing what he was thinking or trying to do. Unbeknownst to him he was very overt for those who know how to read bodylanguage. Anyway I guess he got some last minute resistance (ha ha ha)

I have learned a lot with that interaction, it was interesting sparring, despite being obnoxious and annoying. It has helped me refine my game by using some of his tactics, but also on what not to do. He made some blatant mistakes, which were probably blatant to me as I am a very special cro-magnon skilled seducer myself lol.

Thank you for the write up Chase, although new questions have arisen in my mind and I will have to revisit this same post to fine tune some more. Much obliged.
 
Last edited:

hey_lover

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
89
People stay in conversations like this because people in general are too agreeable and conflict averse. It's easier to reject someone over the phone than it is to reject them in their face.

Some of my greatest insights into female behaviour came when I was on the receiving end of someone using persuasion influence. Even though, I had already decided I wasn't going to buy, I didn't have the balls to say no in the moment and agreed to hearing their presentation or verbally agreed to attenting one of their meetings.

Rather than risk the backlash of a rejection, it was easier to play along and then later ghost over text. That's why so many many men around the world have countless tales of seemingly pleasant woman not responding to the first text, because women are notoriously agreeable and conflict averse.
 

ZacAdam

Cro-Magnon Man
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Nov 20, 2012
Messages
6,167
so talented salesmen, seducers, and rhetoricians will use a variety of tactics, then monitor the responses to those tactics, to figure out what works best with someone. Then commit to that approach once it's found.

So, it's a little more complicated than strong/weak.

Everyone, nail this in your head. And be honest in private with yourself.

It's very very very easy.

As an Asian who sees disingenuous, Unawareness, 'reality switch sleight of hand'.

Ask any Indian in India who lives in two worlds, the conservative idea of and the western ideoloy. Ask any Muslim who is "modernise" and self aware.

Ask any Asian who sees Asian Tiger mothers.

Asian Tiger Mums
= Arrested Development (according to Zac)


z@c+
 
Last edited:

ph40

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 6, 2021
Messages
118
@DarkKnight,

It's a good question.

I saw in the other thread you had a FOMO answer (fear of missing out). That is definitely a part of it.

The other part though is humans are social animals, who have evolved to base a lot of our decision-making off rank and authority. However, there is no unanimous indicator of those things, so we have to look for indirect indicators. Some of the best are confidence and persistence.

When you say 'no' to someone, but that person persists in a confident, cheery, and/or urgent way, unless you are also supremely confident yourself it will cause you to begin to question your decision. I think someone in the other thread mentioned people being low self-esteem or weak, but it isn't even that necessarily. People can be pretty strong most of the time but still be swayed.

Anyone can be swayed, given enough time to sway him.

Take someone with strong rhetorical abilities and stick him in a room with someone else and don't let that other person leave, while also preventing physical violence (so he can't just beat up the guy talking to him if he gets sick of what he's hearing), and sooner or later the guy being talked to will crack. That's why they tell you "don't talk to the police":


The police don't have you in an interrogation room because they want the full truth. They have you in an interrogation room because they want a confession. And it doesn't matter how long you hold out for... if you hold out for 12 hours... if they can get you to 'crack', you're theirs.

You can get STRONG people to crack. Very strong people. My favorite thing in seduction is picking up strong girls. I like really strong, confident, opinionated women. I enjoy when they resist me, it gets me smiling and laughing a bit (it is silly & cute), because I know at some point, so long as I am able to keep them around me, they will crack. The only way for a girl I want to go to bed with to not end up with me in her vagina is to quit seeing me, or to turn me off or annoy me in some way (lol). Otherwise, so long as she's around me, and I still want her, I am going to keep chipping away at her, and it is only a matter of time (usually hours at most) before she cracks.

I will also add you can run into weak people who will not easily crack because they have one VERY high wall somewhere. If you get past that wall, they have no real strength at all and you can get them to do anything. In my experience, generally the people who have one very high wall somewhere tend to be weak people, not strong ones, who have built that wall to protect their soft middles.

The strongest people are those who are able to entertain all kinds of different ideas, and consider them, while still retaining the ability to make up their own minds about them, and are much less influenceable. Even still, these people can be swayed, given enough time and the right approach.

What happens psychologically is past a certain point, the mind 'flips' and begins viewing the person who is persisting as someone to listen to / an authority. As soon as that flip occurs, it is all downhill, and that person is going to get what he wants. The person switches from being a distrusted outsider to a trusted counselor. Whatever the trusted individual recommends, the one who trusts him will at the least seriously consider, and likely ultimately opt to do.

While mental independence plays a big role here, again, everyone has people he trusts, and anyone can be made to trust someone new with enough of the right tactics. Often what makes someone trust another person will vary, so talented salesmen, seducers, and rhetoricians will use a variety of tactics, then monitor the responses to those tactics, to figure out what works best with someone. Then commit to that approach once it's found.

So, it's a little more complicated than strong/weak.

Even with strong people, once you figure out their triggers, you figure out how you can reliably get around their various defenses and open them up to suggestion. The only real defense against it is understanding the mind, seduction, sales, and rhetoric enough yourself you can understand these rhetorical devices for what they are, then on top of that having exposure to the situations and pressures you can find yourself in so you're able to stay calm and rational despite whatever opportunities or threats appear to be present.

Chase

Really interesting points Chase. Are there any formal articles you've written about defending yourself against this kind of manipulation? I know, in the seduction community we are trying to be the manipulators often but I think just as important and valuable is being able to defend against OTHERS doing this to you. I know my career has suffered at times because I didn't have the right defenses to counter a strong-willed individual. I wish I had more tutelage on how to build that defense up.
 

Chase

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tribal-elder
Joined
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Messages
4,464
@ph40,

Really interesting points Chase. Are there any formal articles you've written about defending yourself against this kind of manipulation? I know, in the seduction community we are trying to be the manipulators often but I think just as important and valuable is being able to defend against OTHERS doing this to you. I know my career has suffered at times because I didn't have the right defenses to counter a strong-willed individual. I wish I had more tutelage on how to build that defense up.

I have indeed. Check these out:



And the whole hard target series is about this, too:


Chase
 
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