Attraction is "neither created nor destroyed" or "has an expiration date"?

Hi all, just a kind of theoretical conflict I noticed reading Chase's articles that I think is fascinatingp) because of how confusing it is (al least for me haha). By the way I don't mean I think chase doesn't know what he's saying I just mean I found this confusing when I read one article after the other…hopefully someone could explain it to me and for anyone else who would care to know

https://www.girlschase.com/content/attra ... ation-date

In this article titled "Attraction has an expiration date", Chase explains that if a girl shows you signs of interest and feels like you aren't reciprocating interest, she starts to feel that you're not taking enough initiative and leading the courtship forward, she'll give up, and get cold on you (depending on how much she felt like her ego was on the line), and you lose your chances with her. All well and good—makes perfect sense on paper. But knowing that, things become more confusing when you read this article:

https://www.girlschase.com/content/attra ... or-it-isnt

In this one, Chase explains that there are two different kinds of "attractions" when it comes to seduction: one that is more permanent, based on "who you are" (eg. how similar your face is to hers, your fundamentals, even how you smell) rather than "what you do" (eg. if you talk smooth, if you take the right steps at the right time, etc). To distinguish the two he calls the first (the deeper kind of "attraction") "fascination", and the second (more fleeting) "excitement". Fascination cannot be "built": it's either there or isnt. Fascination is something that feels more primal, more magical, leads to a stronger bond between a guy and girl, and—this is important—a girl who is fascinated by you will be much more tolerant of mistakes, missed windows etc.

Chase even says you cannot lose fascination. He says he had girls who he'd messed up with disastrously, but the attraction remained (and he would be able to reignite it with the right approach).

Now the obvious question: if a girl is fascinated by you…will she still lose that fascination over time (like maybe even a really long time, like years)? Does it have an expiration date at all? Or, as chase said in the article, is fascinated "neither created nor destroyed"? Just hoping someone could flesh out the nuances, like if a girl is fascinated but ur game really sucked or you were too much of an asshole to her and she rejected, how long will she retain that fascination, and could you actually get a second chance within the right period of time? What if she was fascinated when she first met you but you just moved too slow, or didn't really move at all? The only thing I could imagine would destroy this fascination would be if you became really needy for her, like if you dated a while and you just became overly needy and showed that to her I'm sure she COULDN'T like you anymore even if she desperately wanted…but am I wrong on this? Someone wiser than me please help explain haha

There is no contradiction.

Attraction is already there, or it's not. The same goes for us guys, we know at first sight if she's beautiful, just pretty, average looking, or outright ugly. She can certainly influence this perception to some extent through the way she dresses, her makeup, her hairstyle, her voice, but at the core, there is basic attraction or not. Same goes for her. And same, you can influence this to some extent with tight fundamentals.

But that, in itself, is not enough. With your game, you will attempt to spike her emotions and take her to bed when her excitement is at its crest. That's the "creating attraction" part, although in reality it's creating emotions and capitalizing on it.

Plus, she has a very limited time frame in which she is available for escalation. It is coming from deep instincts, a built-in feature of girls that you have to live with. So... fail to take her to bed within this time frame, and it all becomes suddenly much, much harder (if at all) to succeed. If her excitement and emotions already crested, it is too late and she turns cold. For her, you didn't take her sexually, and that's it. Even worse if you didn't create this excitement, and just stayed around forever without making a move: welcome to Friend Zone!

You didn't take her sexually in the allotted time frame. For her, either she's not sexually attractive, or you're not a sexual man. In the first case, she is likely to auto-reject: instead of accepting a problem with her attractiveness, she will rationalize some reason to dismiss you as a mate - and become cold. In the second case, she will rationalize that surely, you're not "that sort of man", so all there ever was must have been friendship. Let's just be friends, then!

Here you go, the various nuances from the two articles. I hope it's clearer now!

Seppuku

@seppuku wow thanks for the reply man really stoked to hear from a "tribal elder" lol
yes thank you that does help a bit, but what about the thing about the stuff about chase having messed up horribly with certain girls, but since they had fascination, he was able to work around the mistakes anyways? Yes unfortunately I ask this because I have a tendency to run slipshod over my interactions with girls and come off overly direct, be a bit insensitive, push too hard at the wrong times, and sometimes outright ignore them if I just don't feel like talking... and all this obviously doesn't help LOL. So getting a girl who does find you attractive, even though your game is baloney… how does that work lollll
Also I'm curious about another thing…if there is some attraction/tension between me and a girl, do I need to act on it every time I see her? I'm talking about in social contexts that happens a lot since I'm a student… If a girl showed interest to me, and I don't want to push fast all the time, if we ever see each other in a social group, does every second I spend not talking to her/showing interest push her further into auto rejection, and make attraction "expire" as chase says? Sometimes I feel like the more I see a girl but don't act (as in don't even talk to her), attraction is slowly draining away like sand in an hourglass…am I right to think this way?

Dontfuckup said:

yes thank you that does help a bit, but what about the thing about the stuff about chase having messed up horribly with certain girls, but since they had fascination, he was able to work around the mistakes anyways?

Click to expand...

In some cases it *may* be possible to work out the mess and save the deal, but in general, when a situation is fucked up, it's fucked up, so don't get your hopes too high. It will take a lot of time and efforts to try to salvage the mess, and after all this time and effort is spent, the odds are that it's still fucked up, and that you spent your precious time and energy chasing shadows. You are much more likely to succeed with a brand new girl from scratch - provided that you do things right next time.

So getting a girl who does find you attractive, even though your game is baloney… how does that work lollll

Click to expand...

It doesn't, except maybe by luck. It most of the time ends up with her thinking "I don't see him this way" or "he's not that kind of man". I say "maybe by luck" because once in a very while, you could be in front of a girl who is really, really into you, and who could close the eyes on all the mistakes and stay around in spite of them. But that's rare. So, don't count on luck and improve your game.

Also I'm curious about another thing…if there is some attraction/tension between me and a girl, do I need to act on it every time I see her?

Click to expand...

It's exactly what we are talking about here. If you feel there is some attraction / tension, you need to act on it *once* and make things happen. For the avoidance of doubt, I mean putting your good friend Dick inside her. This attraction / tension will not stay around for long, so don't wait.

does every second I spend not talking to her/showing interest push her further into auto rejection, and make attraction "expire" as chase says? Sometimes I feel like the more I see a girl but don't act (as in don't even talk to her), attraction is slowly draining away like sand in an hourglass…am I right to think this way?

Click to expand...

Yes, you are. And it's not simply about "talking to her / showing interest". This is just the first step. The second step should follow immediately after, which is (i) take her on a one-to-one date, then (ii) bring her back in your room under any pretext, then (iii) escalate her sexually.

Seppuku said:

Attraction is already there, or it's not. The same goes for us guys, we know at first sight if she's beautiful, just pretty, average looking, or outright ugly. She can certainly influence this perception to some extent through the way she dresses, her makeup, her hairstyle, her voice, but at the core, there is basic attraction or not. Same goes for her. And same, you can influence this to some extent with tight fundamentals.

But that, in itself, is not enough. With your game, you will attempt to spike her emotions and take her to bed when her excitement is at its crest. That's the "creating attraction" part, although in reality it's creating emotions and capitalizing on it.

Click to expand...

Love this, super important to internalize.

To clarify, Chase isn't saying attraction has an expiration date. Chase is saying the window for saying "yes" to a date has an expiration. Because after that, is women's revenge.

NealIRC said:

To clarify, Chase isn't saying attraction has an expiration date. Chase is saying the window for saying "yes" to a date has an expiration. Because after that, is women's revenge.

Click to expand...

Sorry, there are newer guys here, trying to learn this stuff, so I can't let you get away with this statement.

For the avoidance of doubt, Chase did say that attraction has an expiration date, and he meant exactly just that, and rightfully so. If you've been around a woman too long and failed to take action, she now no longer views you as "this sort of man". Your chances to take her to bed are now near zero. You're good for the Friend Zone at best.

Exception: Once in a very while you will meet a girl who is (i) very much into you, and (ii) see some other (non-Lover) useful value in you. This girl may let you go the (long) Boyfriend route. Don't count too much on that, it's "getting lucky". In general you cannot afford not taking action.

The "window for saying yes to a date" above: no comment.

Seppuku

Seppuku said:

NealIRC said:

To clarify, Chase isn't saying attraction has an expiration date. Chase is saying the window for saying "yes" to a date has an expiration. Because after that, is women's revenge.

Click to expand...

Sorry, there are newer guys here, trying to learn this stuff, so I can't let you get away with this statement.

For the avoidance of doubt, Chase did say that attraction has an expiration date, and he meant exactly just that, and rightfully so. If you've been around a woman too long and failed to take action, she now no longer views you as "this sort of man". Your chances to take her to bed are now near zero. You're good for the Friend Zone at best.

Exception: Once in a very while you will meet a girl who is (i) very much into you, and (ii) see some other (non-Lover) useful value in you. This girl may let you go the (long) Boyfriend route. Don't count too much on that, it's "getting lucky". In general you cannot afford not taking action.

Click to expand...

Or in other words, women are attracted to X, she thought you were X because you seemed X, and then you turned out to be Y, so it seems like she lost attraction.

But the attraction for personality X is still there.

If you were always Y, then it was a misattraction.

NealIRC said:

Seppuku said:

NealIRC said:

To clarify, Chase isn't saying attraction has an expiration date. Chase is saying the window for saying "yes" to a date has an expiration. Because after that, is women's revenge.

Click to expand...

Sorry, there are newer guys here, trying to learn this stuff, so I can't let you get away with this statement.

For the avoidance of doubt, Chase did say that attraction has an expiration date, and he meant exactly just that, and rightfully so. If you've been around a woman too long and failed to take action, she now no longer views you as "this sort of man". Your chances to take her to bed are now near zero. You're good for the Friend Zone at best.

Exception: Once in a very while you will meet a girl who is (i) very much into you, and (ii) see some other (non-Lover) useful value in you. This girl may let you go the (long) Boyfriend route. Don't count too much on that, it's "getting lucky". In general you cannot afford not taking action.

Click to expand...

Or in other words, women are attracted to X, she thought you were X because you seemed X, and then you turned out to be Y, so it seems like she lost attraction.

But the attraction for personality X is still there.

If you were always Y, then it was a misattraction.

Click to expand...

Neal,

The only thing that matters is that she does not see you as X anymore so to her, you are not X anymore. It does not matter whether you actually are X or Y or G or an ice cream.

Michal said:

Neal,

The only thing that matters is that she does not see you as X anymore so to her, you are not X anymore. It does not matter whether you actually are X or Y or G or an ice cream.

Click to expand...

However, my point in my original post is.

Sometimes a girl still thinks you're X, still attracted to you. But you didn't ask her out in time.

And she therefore wants to punish you for that.

Because her revenge is built up now too high.

It's possible to be attracted to someone you turn down. Remember, the more and more a girl into you, then the more and more she can revenge at you. Because you're worth it to her.

It's sloppy thinking to say if she into you, she never gonna turn you down.

NealIRC said:

Michal said:

Neal,

The only thing that matters is that she does not see you as X anymore so to her, you are not X anymore. It does not matter whether you actually are X or Y or G or an ice cream.

Click to expand...

However, my point in my original post is.

Sometimes a girl still thinks you're X, still attracted to you. But you didn't ask her out in time.

And she therefore wants to punish you for that.

Because her revenge is built up now too high.

It's possible to be attracted to someone you turn down. Remember, the more and more a girl into you, then the more and more she can revenge at you. Because you're worth it to her.

It's sloppy thinking to say if she into you, she never gonna turn you down.

Click to expand...

I am not sure what you are talking about but there is no "revenge" going on. There are however insecure women who cannot handle the fact that some men are not interested in them. And I would say that maybe.. just maybe 1 out of 4000 women is so insecure that she would spread bad rumors about you or something to get back at you. That is such a rare case that you cannot speak about it so generally. Just like there are men who actually murdered their ex-girlfriend because she broke up with them. And their reason is "if I cannot have her, nobody can!" But that is bordering with some mental disorders.

So no, there is no revenge, there is auto-rejection. Which means the girl goes cold and thinks "screw that guy, who needs him!" And basically moves on to some other guy

One distinction that has helped me make sense of this is "compliance vs attraction.

Attraction is more static. It is there, are not. It can be amplified and can go away, but there elements are far less in your control than "compliance".

Compliance is different though. It is something you are much more in control of. You can build compliance. For example by displaying social value, by using social proof, by framing yourself as a guy who can give her something she needs, by using jealousie, but showing mixed signals. Arousal, emotional stimuation, rapport, all create compliance.

I mean think about it - you can hook up with a girl who you are not really attracted to, if she touches your dick and tells you how she loves gargling cum. Most men are prone to become aroused from some girls (considering she is not outright ugly, and even many times, guys would still get aroused). Arousal equals compliance.

This is one example. You are more prone to say yes - i.e. become compliant. This my way of seeing it. But were you fascinated by the girl initially? No. Will you become fascinated by her? maybe. Maybe her blowjobs are fascinating, but that's about it. Doesn't make her fascinating. That said, I'd fight for a good BJ

Attraction, can cause compliance.

But again, this becomes a discussion of semantics, and it becomes overly theoretical and too distanced from the field. I do not like like this per se. becasuse field experience is the final judge for true or false. And with its absence, such conversations usually dissolves in to mental masturbation over semantics.

Regarding chase's distinction, he just uses different words to say the same thing. Regarding fascination - a girl may be fascinated by you, attract and all that, yet with time because less compliant because she kind have lost hope in future with you. One can be fascinated by someone and become less compliant - even though fascination usually leads to high compliance. But this compliance has an expiration date, Think about it, you love this girl, she is hot, gorgeous smart, sexy... what ever. most likely you will become pretty compliant to her (you will hold back in order to not see "needy") but anyway...

Let's say she stops responding your calls. She can't meet you. First you feel sad, but as a real man you are, you move. You still found the girl facinating. But your compliance dropped didn't it?

Hope this does clarify.

-Alek

Michal said:

I am not sure what you are talking about but there is no "revenge" going on.

Click to expand...

What about the guy who posted that between his asking her out 1st date and 2nd date, which was 2 weeks. She didn't like the wait of 2 weeks, and therefore got angry and revenged by saying no when he finally asked the 2nd date?

And another situation, I overheard a girl tell a guy in school, that some guy she likes still hasn't asked her out yet and therefore she tells him that she wants him to ask her out jus so she could say no...

Yea, revenge is a factor here.

Or even my case where I wait 3 and 4 weeks of Facebook messaging a girl just to see if she'll ever be the 1st to msg me, so you get the idea.

Now, would a woman ever care to revenge at a man she doesn't find attractive? Why is it women only do this to men they do find attractive?

Edit: and it's hard to hold this view for those that are already predisposed to the belief that women can't be vengeful.

Michal said:

There are however insecure women who cannot handle the fact that some men are not interested in them.

Click to expand...

Right, and when he does ask her out, he's showing her the opposite.

NealIRC said:

Michal said:

I am not sure what you are talking about but there is no "revenge" going on.

Click to expand...

What about the guy who posted that between his asking her out 1st date and 2nd date, which was 2 weeks. She didn't like the wait of 2 weeks, and therefore got angry and revenged by saying no when he finally asked the 2nd date?

And another situation, I overheard a girl tell a guy in school, that some guy she likes still hasn't asked her out yet and therefore she tells him that she wants him to ask her out jus so she could say no...

Yea, revenge is a factor here.

Or even my case where I wait 3 and 4 weeks of Facebook messaging a girl just to see if she'll ever be the 1st to msg me, so you get the idea.

Now, would a woman ever care to revenge at a man she doesn't find attractive? Why is it women only do this to men they do find attractive?

Edit: and it's hard to hold this view for those that are already predisposed to the belief that women can't be vengeful.

Michal said:

There are however insecure women who cannot handle the fact that some men are not interested in them.

Click to expand...

Right, and when he does ask her out, he's showing her the opposite.

Click to expand...

First of all, I never said I dont believe women cannot be vengeful.

Your point is:

NealIRC said:

Remember, the more and more a girl into you, then the more and more she can revenge at you. Because you're worth it to her.

Click to expand...

This is complete nonsense and hopefully noone will take what you said at heart. Because if some new guy comes here and believes this, he might think "geez, better not be too attractive or some girl will shove an axe in the windshield of my car and ram it with a sledgehammer"
The vengeful people are usually low status people or insecure people or people with big ego who canot handle rejection or when someone does not give them what they want. It has nothing to do with attraction and how much anyone is attracted to someone else.

The examples you provided are from school where girls are young, they are not that in control of their emotions and as a social circle environment, they need to handle their reputation and guard it more carefully. So if a guy does not ask them out, it is the fact that they have absolutely no control over that. So they want some power back and thats why they have a "back up plan" that once he asks them out, they say no. To show their power and repair some reputation damage of seeming undesirable. It has nothing to do with how atrractive she found him.

Michal said:

First of all, I never said I dont believe women cannot be vengeful.

Click to expand...

Well, that was meant for Chase staff, as well as evil. But evil wasn't the word I was looking for.

Michal said:

Your point is:

NealIRC said:

Remember, the more and more a girl into you, then the more and more she can revenge at you. Because you're worth it to her.

Click to expand...

This is complete nonsense and hopefully noone will take what you said at heart. Because if some new guy comes here and believes this, he might think "geez, better not be too attractive or some girl will shove an axe in the windshield of my car and ram it with a sledgehammer"

Click to expand...

And while that may not happen with White women from good environments (Denmark, Iceland, etc.). There are versions of this among girls from bad areas.

In fact here's some regarding Black women in Chicago's South side.

Black guy breaks up with her, gets new girlfriend. Then 1 day while driving her car, she saw the 2 of them outside their house, she rams her car and crashes into the girl, and he was partially hit. Car hit her pelvic bone so doctors say she may not be able to have kids.

Yea, he was punished big for breaking up with his ex.

For Hispanic women, a lot of women post they wanna kill their ex for breaking up with them.

Michal said:

The vengeful people are usually low status people or insecure people or people with big ego who canot handle rejection or when someone does not give them what they want.

Click to expand...

Yes... this pretty much says it.

Michal said:

It has nothing to do with attraction and how much anyone is attracted to someone else.

Click to expand...

Then why don't women ever revenge at guys they don't find attractive?

Michal said:

The examples you provided are from school where girls are young, they are not that in control of their emotions and as a social circle environment, they need to handle their reputation and guard it more carefully. So if a guy does not ask them out, it is the fact that they have absolutely no control over that. So they want some power back and thats why they have a "back up plan" that once he asks them out, they say no. To show their power and repair some reputation damage of seeming undesirable.

Click to expand...

Okay that's fine too, revenge can come at an early age.

Michal said:

It has nothing to do with how atrractive she found him.

Click to expand...

Then it shouldn't even matter if he broke up with her 1st huh?

For women, relationships are a power-game, if do you like her more, or does she like you more. They pretty much have to have it their way or no relationship.

NealIRC said:

Well, that was meant for Chase staff, as well as evil. But evil wasn't the word I was looking for.


And while that may not happen with White women from good environments (Denmark, Iceland, etc.). There are versions of this among girls from bad areas.

In fact here's some regarding Black women in Chicago's South side.

Black guy breaks up with her, gets new girlfriend. Then 1 day while driving her car, she saw the 2 of them outside their house, she rams her car and crashes into the girl, and he was partially hit. Car hit her pelvic bone so doctors say she may not be able to have kids.

Yea, he was punished big for breaking up with his ex.

For Hispanic women, a lot of women post they wanna kill their ex for breaking up with them.


Yes... this pretty much says it.


Then why don't women ever revenge at guys they don't find attractive?


Okay that's fine too, revenge can come at an early age.


Then it shouldn't even matter if he broke up with her 1st huh?

For women, relationships are a power-game, if do you like her more, or does she like you more. They pretty much have to have it their way or no relationship.

Click to expand...

Wait but what we know from GC content & the greater manosphere is that: male led relationships are more satisfying/preferred by women. I believe the "her way or highway" is an oversimplification & the ignores variables like: the individual woman or the man's leadership/relationship managment skills.

Seppuku said:

There is no contradiction.

Attraction is already there, or it's not. Us guys know at first sight if she's beautiful, just pretty, average looking, or outright ugly. She can certainly influence this perception to some extent through the way she dresses, her makeup, her hairstyle, her voice, but at the core, there is basic attraction or not. Same goes for her. You can influence this to some extent with tight fundamentals.

Click to expand...

Good post. Seems to be in line what Mark Manson said about how game is about amplifying 'existing attraction', but if a girl isn't attracted to you, no amount of negs or teases or whatever is gonna cut any ice. You're just not her type. (this seems to be confirmed in infields and FR's etc)

Having said that, because I love this stuff, I always try just for the fun of it. I throw every piece of game tech I can think of at girls who are like ''You're not my type. Bye!' in an attempt to 'force' attraction.