Taking a break from seduction while upgrading fundamentals/looks

A big goal of mine this year is to upgrade my fundamentals(mostly in terms of looks). Maybe it's because I've been reading more of @Spike postings but I think it's the singular thing costing me the most girls. I have bad teeth (chipped and gaps), skin isn't the smoothest and I'm fairly jacked but stand to gain a bit more muscle and improve my style. I've started working on all 4 of these and should see notable results by the end of the year. I just have these mental block now when talking to girls that it's not worth trying since my looks aren't where i want them to be. I do genuinely think i wouldn't have to put in as much work (approach as many girls for example) on a night out before i find a girl who easily invests and hooks after this transformation but I also don't want to stop gaming so I won't get rusty.

Has anyone here been through something similar? I'm tired of going through the motions with multiple girls and not having much to show for it at the end of the night. I've had a couple same night lays and i've historically been good at first-date/second-date lays whenever i go on dates. I just think my stunted/slow progress in seduction is beginning to affect my self esteem/love for the game. From what an outside perspective, i'm doing pretty good in life but not being as good as i want to be in seduction makes it feel like i suck in all aspects. It's why I'm considering a break.

For context, here's data from my night out yesterday. I wasn't feeling the best health wise but I went out and approached a couple of girls because I was bored. Here's how they went(not in order):

Girl 1 - we just started building rapport when her friends dragged her away. I didn't get the vibe that she was interested but it's one of the situations that I might have turned around if I had more time
Girl 2 - We got into some fun conversation but she had a boyfriend
Girl 3 - We got into some fun conversation but she also had a boyfriend
Girl 4 - too drunk but seemed into me. She was too drunk though so it was a dead end
Girl 5 - she seemed a bit interested and we were building some rapport when her friends dragged her away
Girl 6 - ignored me on the open
Girl 7- Seemed a bit interested at first but then started ignoring me

This was one of my worse nights but my nights usually go like this except I get a couple more girls who I take things farther with (deep diving, escalation or number close if logistics are bad, the pull happens on the rare occasion that i get lucky)
I've been doing some troubleshooting to figure out what i'm doing wrong and all I can think about is my looks but those take time to develop. What can I do in the short term?

barneystin said:

I've been doing some troubleshooting to figure out what i'm doing wrong and all I can think about is my looks but those take time to develop. What can I do in the short term?

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I see that you've written a lot of field reports that don't get much responses. The main issue seems to be a lack of specificity. It's hard to look at them and see what exactly you were doing wrong other than dragging out the sets and missing escalation windows.

Do you read GirlsChase articles and actually implement them in night game, or do you just keep trying the same things over and over again? Genuine question, not being sarcastic. The formula to improve in seduction is:

1. Read articles about your sticking points
2. Go out and implement the learnings in field
3. Write field reports about what specifically went wrong in relation to those sticking points

Fundamentals are certainly important, though I don't see why you need to "take a break from seduction" to improve them. If anything, you should be calibrating your appearance to reactions from girls, and that only comes from in-field experience.

Coaching also sounds like it would benefit you a lot. You might need an expert outsider's perspective to identify exactly what your major sticking points are. Once you know that, you'll have a better sense of direction instead of just stabbing in the dark.

Atlas IV said:

I see that you've written a lot of field reports that don't get much responses. The main issue seems to be a lack of specificity. It's hard to look at them and see what exactly you were doing wrong other than dragging out the sets and missing escalation windows.

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Hmm, appreciate the feedback. I'll see if i can work on making them more specific

Atlas IV said:

Do you read GirlsChase articles and actually implement them in night game, or do you just keep trying the same things over and over again? Genuine question, not being sarcastic. The formula to improve in seduction is:

1. Read articles about your sticking points
2. Go out and implement the learnings in field
3. Write field reports about what specifically went wrong in relation to those sticking points

Click to expand...

Yeah I've consumed a massive amount of GC content and I think I understand the main principles. My biggest sticking points so far are hooking and keeping conversation going (in a way that leads to escalation). I've tried to troubleshoot what I'm doing and I've re-read Alek's hooking series multiple times. My hook rate has definitely gone up and I have gotten better at conversations but I'm just not where I want to be so I figured my main problem was attraction.

Atlas IV said:

Coaching also sounds like it would benefit you a lot. You might need an expert outsider's perspective to identify exactly what your major sticking points are. Once you know that, you'll have a better sense of direction instead of just stabbing in the dark.

Click to expand...

Agree, I'm seriously considering coaching now but I can't find any 1-1 coaching program in my budget. Any suggestions?

barneystin said:

so I figured my main problem was attraction.

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Again, as @Atlas IV said you don't need to stop gaming while sorting fundamentals. Yes looks help, particularly when opening, but ugly guys with no dress sense and spots still pull too - girls are much less interested in looks than guys are. They are far more connected to feelings so use this to your advantage be attractive by being fun and humorous mixing interesting other topics into the conversation. Make her feel good in the conversation, fun, compliments, sexy vibe, interesting interactions, etc. If she feels bored she will eject which is what happened with Girl 7.

barneystin said:

Yeah I've consumed a massive amount of GC content and I think I understand the main principles.

Click to expand...

You may have read it, and agreed with it, but that doesn't mean you can apply it in field. Being in the moment with a girl is fun and it's very difficult to look at whats happening objectively in the moment and act on it while in set. Focus on 1 or 2 main points for an evening and try and see you and her from outside of your bubble so you get an objective view of what is going on. This is really hard to do, so it takes practice and constant awareness to keep looking from outside your bubble.

barneystin said:

Girl 2 - We got into some fun conversation but she had a boyfriend
Girl 3 - We got into some fun conversation but she also had a boyfriend

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So what, this is a very common "test" from girls. Have you read articles about this on GC, if so recognise it for what it is. Even if she does have a BF how serious is she about him, it may only be casual, occasional or totally could be totally fictional. Have fun chatting to her, make her want more of your company, use her as a test case for trying out whatever your improvement objective for the night is.

As soon as you assume she isn't pulling material you will find you have different emotions towards her and can then be more experimental and/or playful with her. Don't spend too much time with her as that is wasteful, BUT she does have friends which she can introduce you to and she will automatically give you good extra social proof. Learn to have fun interesting interactions which will lead onto other opportunities, don't just drop girls because they aren't into you there and then. Again this takes skill and experience to judge how long to stay but social proof will improve your outcomes massively.

@barneystin,

barneystin said:

A big goal of mine this year is to upgrade my fundamentals(mostly in terms of looks).

Click to expand...

Good goal to have, but...

barneystin said:

I have bad teeth (chipped and gaps), skin isn't the smoothest and I'm fairly jacked but stand to gain a bit more muscle and improve my style. I've started working on all 4 of these and should see notable results by the end of the year. I just have these mental block now when talking to girls that it's not worth trying since my looks aren't where i want them to be. I do genuinely think i wouldn't have to put in as much work (approach as many girls for example) on a night out before i find a girl who easily invests and hooks after this transformation but I also don't want to stop gaming so I won't get rusty.

Click to expand...

The problem with the "magic transformation" hopes is reality tends to dash them pretty quick.

You go "monk mode" for a year or more, which feels good, because you are letting yourself off the hook of the stressful thing (dealing with rejections) while telling yourself you'll only get better results in the end. Then you come out of monk mode, feeling like a brand new man, start approaching, get a few rejections, and it utterly wrecks you.

Once you're out of the field you aren't getting checked by reality anymore, so fantasy takes over. For incels, it's doom-and-gloom fantasies. But for monk mode guys, it's success fantasies. "Wow, I am getting so hot... I'm gonna get back in-field and the girls are gonna DROOL. They'll be ALL OVER ME!" As soon as reality pops that bubble it leads to some big self-doubt. Even if you do see an improvement in results, it's never as big as you were hoping for, and then all the questioning and hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing starts.

Rejection never goes away. Focus should be on building resilience:


Learning to ping more if you want to reduce rejection by checking for interest levels first:


Then just finding more ways to build positive reference experiences:


When you're out of the game you are building NO reference experiences, which means you are not getting better.

The other problem with monk mode is you're not getting feedback.

I have changed a lot of things about my appearance over the years. Many of them I started off thinking, "Man, chicks are gonna love this!" but the reaction is muted or nil. Conversely, sometimes you will try something out, thinking, "This is kind of cool," and then you get a very strong reaction from a few girls, and are like, "Whoa, okay. Is this the new haircut/beard/jacket/etc.? Or is it just random good luck?" If you aren't getting feedback though you just don't know.

You need to be very careful assuming what women are going to care about. No one pays as much attention to you as you do. You might think your chipped teeth and smaller muscles are hurting you with girls, but I bet you most girls don't much care. SOME girls probably care... different women care about all kinds of different things. But if 2 out of 100 girls you meet rejects you because "Ew, his tooth is chipped" and another 3 out of 100 rejects you because "I only date guys more swoll than that", it's not nothing, and worth fixing if you want to, but taking a year off is going to lead to some BIG hopes that will be very disappointed.

barneystin said:

Has anyone here been through something similar? I'm tired of going through the motions with multiple girls and not having much to show for it at the end of the night. I've had a couple same night lays and i've historically been good at first-date/second-date lays whenever i go on dates. I just think my stunted/slow progress in seduction is beginning to affect my self esteem/love for the game. From what an outside perspective, i'm doing pretty good in life but not being as good as i want to be in seduction makes it feel like i suck in all aspects. It's why I'm considering a break.

Click to expand...

A lot of guys who take breaks due to "not progressing fast enough" don't come back.

When your last memory of something was "Well that didn't work as well as I thought it would" you aren't really so motivated to get back to it.

Usually the "taking a break due to slowness of progression" guys end up meeting a girl through social circle using whatever skills they developed through cold approach and get into an LTR. You talk to them years later and they all have the same story "It's okay with this girl, she's really sweet, but not the best, so I'm still thinking about going back to cold approach someday." Then they marry the girl. Which, I mean... that's fine... everyone has his life path.

If you want to make cold approach work, the solution is to figure out what's not working and tackle that first.

e.g., if girls are not hooking -- are you the kind of guy that if YOU met you randomly, you'd be like, "Fuck YEAH I wanna talk to this guy!"? For instance:

• Do you come in with GREAT, positive, infectious energy?
• Do you quickly make people feel like you 'get' them right away?
• Do you have a good sense of humor and jokes/teases people enjoy?
• Do you tell interesting stories that hook people in and get them engaging with you?
• Are you good at getting investment and getting them to move with you and start complying with you?
• Do you build social proof/preselection and take over the venue looking like Mr. Cool & Well-Connected?

Let's forget about banging girls. Are the girls you meet with boyfriends trying to be buddies with you and keep you in their networks because you're too valuable a guy to let go?

None of that has to do directly with looks. Looks serve to grease the wheels for the connection. e.g., if you come in with great energy but you're ugly as sin, she's going to be skeptical for a while longer before she lets herself get carried away with it, then may have female state control kick in later if you're not doing a good job disarming that (e.g., "This guy is so funny and sexy... wait, I can't go with a guy like this, can I?" etc.).

barneystin said:

For context, here's data from my night out yesterday. I wasn't feeling the best health wise but I went out and approached a couple of girls because I was bored. Here's how they went(not in order):

Girl 1 - we just started building rapport when her friends dragged her away. I didn't get the vibe that she was interested but it's one of the situations that I might have turned around if I had more time
Girl 2 - We got into some fun conversation but she had a boyfriend
Girl 3 - We got into some fun conversation but she also had a boyfriend
Girl 4 - too drunk but seemed into me. She was too drunk though so it was a dead end
Girl 5 - she seemed a bit interested and we were building some rapport when her friends dragged her away
Girl 6 - ignored me on the open
Girl 7- Seemed a bit interested at first but then started ignoring me

This was one of my worse nights but my nights usually go like this except I get a couple more girls who I take things farther with (deep diving, escalation or number close if logistics are bad, the pull happens on the rare occasion that i get lucky)
I've been doing some troubleshooting to figure out what i'm doing wrong and all I can think about is my looks but those take time to develop. What can I do in the short term?

Click to expand...

Two fun conversations, followed by two girls who were interested, and that's one of your worst nights? (Chase quietly burns all records of his most terrible nights out)

My suspicion is the "worst night" emotion comes from the last girl. Having a girl seem interested then switch to ignoring you is one of those mystifying gut-punch things. It happens when you fail to connect with her properly. It will not stop happening even if you become The Sexiest Man In the World. That will help some, but if your connection game sucks, it is going to keep happening (and then maybe you will conclude you must need even bigger muscles, or maybe a mohawk or some colorful tattoos!).

Anyway, my general rule, for me personally, has long been "It takes 12 approaches to find a girl you can pull that day/night." Sometimes you get her in approach #1 or 2, sometimes you make 15 approaches and get nothing, but on average if you target 12 approaches in an outing you've got a pretty solid chance of a very strong hook / girl you can pull. So that is my personal metric: "Not concluding this is an 'off' day/night before I've made 12 approaches." If it's anything under 12, IMO, then it's just random variation -- string of good luck or bad luck, it could be either, but nothing conclusive before #12.

Maybe the girl you would've pulled on that bad night out of yours was Girl #11 that night -- but you stopped at girl #7.

That's just how it goes with the game.

It is forever a numbers game!

Chase

@Chase reply is gold

Chase said:

You go "monk mode" for a year or more, which feels good, because you are letting yourself off the hook of the stressful thing (dealing with rejections) while telling yourself you'll only get better results in the end. Then you come out of monk mode, feeling like a brand new man, start approaching, get a few rejections, and it utterly wrecks you.

Click to expand...

I was that monk mode guy. It was a HUGE mistake. Lost all the momentum I'd built up from cold approach street game and quit just when results were ramping up because the stress just got to me and I got immediate relief by quitting (although I had the better rationalisation of 'I'm going to focus more on my work').

Went back to game the following year - never built up the same momentum, had to start from scratch again, girls' reactions were actually worse because I'd lost the vibe I'd built up from consistently going out. I did about a couple of weeks again before quitting once more, this time because the 6th girl I approached turned into an LTR. She was good enough and again I got immediate stress relief.

One of my favourite quotes is from Nathaniel Branden.

The only way out is through.

Click to expand...

Hey @barneystin

I’m glad that what I’ve written has inspired you to take working on your looks more seriously. I will have to agree with @Atlas IV comment here, in that just because your working on your looks. Doesn’t necessarily mean you have to take the rest of the year off.

Atlas IV said:

If anything, you should be calibrating your appearance to reactions from girls, and that only comes from in-field experience

Click to expand...

I myself am going through a style change. I wasn’t satisfied with the reactions I was getting lately, so I’ve taken some time off for the clothes and jewelry I ordered to come in (the company I ordered the pants from is in Australia. So that’s been taking a while to get here). Once it’s here tho, I’ll get back in the field and update my archetype thread.

but yeah I’m going to agree with your conclusion

barneystin said:

I've been doing some troubleshooting to figure out what i'm doing wrong and all I can think about is my looks but those take time to develop.

Click to expand...

Not that Skills ever struggled with girls. But a year or two ago, he told me that he wasn’t getting the same reactions he was used to from girls. And knew it was a looks issue. And then began experimenting with baggy style. All of a sudden his problems were fixed for the most part.

the better you look, the less this will be an issue:

barneystin said:

ignored me on the open

Click to expand...

barneystin said:

Girl 1 - we just started building rapport when her friends dragged her away

Click to expand...

barneystin said:

Girl 5 - she seemed a bit interested and we were building some rapport when her friends dragged her away

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Girls drag their friend away (even if she looks to be having a great time with you (I.e. strong hook)) because they don’t want their friend hooking up with that guy. If that guy looks good tho, they’ll not interfere. Generally speaking of course. They could think you’re good looking and then start talking to you and see that you’re a weirdo or too drunk and they’ll pull their friend away anyway. But I’m going to assume you’re not a weirdo.

and then ignoring you on open pretty much never happens to me because I’m not knee jerk eww.

So right there both your issues will be fixed (don’t worry about the girls with boyfriends. That happens to me as well. If she wants to cheat she will. 99% of the time they will go home to their boyfriends. And drunk girls are always wildcards that you can’t really strategize for that. Because their behavior is too random).

barneystin said:

A big goal of mine this year is to upgrade my fundamentals(mostly in terms of looks). Maybe it's because I've been reading more of @Spike postings but I think it's the singular thing costing me the most girls. I have bad teeth (chipped and gaps), skin isn't the smoothest and I'm fairly jacked but stand to gain a bit more muscle and improve my style. I've started working on all 4 of these and should see notable results by the end of the year. I just have these mental block now when talking to girls that it's not worth trying since my looks aren't where i want them to be. I do genuinely think i wouldn't have to put in as much work (approach as many girls for example) on a night out before i find a girl who easily invests and hooks after this transformation but I also don't want to stop gaming so I won't get rusty.

Has anyone here been through something similar? I'm tired of going through the motions with multiple girls and not having much to show for it at the end of the night. I've had a couple same night lays and i've historically been good at first-date/second-date lays whenever i go on dates. I just think my stunted/slow progress in seduction is beginning to affect my self esteem/love for the game. From what an outside perspective, i'm doing pretty good in life but not being as good as i want to be in seduction makes it feel like i suck in all aspects. It's why I'm considering a break.

For context, here's data from my night out yesterday. I wasn't feeling the best health wise but I went out and approached a couple of girls because I was bored. Here's how they went(not in order):

Girl 1 - we just started building rapport when her friends dragged her away. I didn't get the vibe that she was interested but it's one of the situations that I might have turned around if I had more time
Girl 2 - We got into some fun conversation but she had a boyfriend
Girl 3 - We got into some fun conversation but she also had a boyfriend
Girl 4 - too drunk but seemed into me. She was too drunk though so it was a dead end
Girl 5 - she seemed a bit interested and we were building some rapport when her friends dragged her away
Girl 6 - ignored me on the open
Girl 7- Seemed a bit interested at first but then started ignoring me

This was one of my worse nights but my nights usually go like this except I get a couple more girls who I take things farther with (deep diving, escalation or number close if logistics are bad, the pull happens on the rare occasion that i get lucky)
I've been doing some troubleshooting to figure out what i'm doing wrong and all I can think about is my looks but those take time to develop. What can I do in the short term?

Click to expand...

lol, he jut described a typical night out, for most people in 2025.... but at atlas says.... you like clear specificity.... I don't understand why you think is your looks conclusion....

Your "results" seem pretty normal to me. Not every night/day is going to be A+. The fact that you've had success, as you mentioned, is stellar. You might be expecting too much from yourself. Yes, there are always areas to improve from your game, but what you wrote doesn't sound too bad to me.

Now, talking about the main point of this thread, you mentioned you want to take a break because you think your looks are affecting your pickup. This might be the case, but there are some things to consider. Taking a break kills any momentum you may have built up, so if you are someone like me who relies a lot on momentum, then just keep that in mind. Secondly, are you enjoying the process? Because if you are, and if you have time to better your looks while also doing pickup, then why not do both if you enjoy it? If you don't have time to do both, then I see nothing wrong with taking time off to put your focus on improving things like your teeth if that time is needed. Also, realize time/age is something you can't get back either, so if you're in your prime now it's always good to capitalize on it, because it doesn't get easier as you age unless you somehow increase your SMV beyond looks.

Here is my optimal answer: if you enjoy pickup, and you have time to better your looks, then do both. That's optimal. If you need a little time away to better your looks because you can't do both at the same time, then do that. Taking years off from pickup to improve something that shouldn't take too long is an excuse, imo. Taking a little time off to do important tasks that require time is normal and likely optimal. If you simply need to go on a diet or build muscle, then taking time off from pickup is an excuse. If you need time off to work hard, save money, and go through a procedure for your teeth, I would not see this as an excuse.

Definitely this:

Skills said:

lol, he jut described a typical night out, for most people in 2025.... but at atlas says.... you like clear specificity.... I don't understand why you think is your looks conclusion....

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Why is the conclusion not "clearly I need to make my conversation more engaging"?

Why is it not "I need to learn better opening body language and get into the habit of quickly locking in"?

Why is it not "I need to do a better job getting rapid compliance from the girls I open"?

How about "I need to do a better job winning over friends & disarming obstacles"?

Oh, right.... here is the reason...

barneystin said:

Maybe it's because I've been reading more of @Spike postings

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Careful reading guys with too-strong opinions.

Even if the opinions are overall good, strong opinions tend to lend themselves to "for the guy with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" kind of thinking.

Chase

Chase said:

Careful reading guys with too-strong opinions.

Even if the opinions are overall good, strong opinions tend to lend themselves to "for the guy with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" kind of thinking.

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Respectively Chase. It’s not just me saying this.

TomInHo said:

So think about it. . . if you can gain more upfront attraction by just dressing better to appeal to your market (not what you think looks cool) , being healthier and putting yourself in the right locations

Why wouldn't you do it?

Why would you be more obsessed about saying the right things to generate attraction when it can also be generated without having to say a word?

Click to expand...

I never suggested anyone, let alone @barneystin quit gaming, to work on their looks. If you can find where I made that suggestion, please direct me towards it.

@barneystin simply doesn’t want to have to approach 15 girls to find one green.

barneystin said:

I do genuinely think i wouldn't have to put in as much work (approach as many girls for example) on a night out before i find a girl who easily invests and hooks after this transformation

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And he doesn’t have to. By doing as I and tominho suggest. Working on your upfront game. Making it so most of the girls you approach will be green. Dramatically decreasing how much work you need to do to get laid.

Chase said:

Why is it not "I need to do a better job getting rapid compliance from the girls I open"?

How about "I need to do a better job winning over friends & disarming obstacles"?

Click to expand...

This sort of advice falls under what tominho alludes to as “obsessing about saying the right things to generate attraction”.

I can attest that from my experience (and skills who I discuss nightgame with, privately), none of us have girls ignoring, instant rejecting us, or having to win the friends over, nowadays. Simply because we prioritized maximizing our overall looks. That is not my opinion, just a fact.

Skills said:

lol, he jut described a typical night out, for most people in 2025

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And Skills is not including himself here as most people. Just an average PUAs night out. But we’re not interested in the results of an average pua are we? Aim to be the few that this doesn’t apply to.

@Spike,

Spike said:

I never suggested anyone, let alone @barneystin quit gaming, to work on their looks. If you can find where I made that suggestion, please direct me towards it.

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I did not say that.

However, every piece of advice I see from you on the forum is "it's your looks, it's your fashion, it's your archetype."

Barney is reading your replies and obviously is influenced by them.

So in his brain now, he encounters a problem in-field, and he hears Spike in the back of his head telling him "it's your looks, it's your fashion, it's your archetype."

He makes the reasonably logical conclusion that "well, if that's what it is, it's going to take me some time to fix all that, so I might as well just take it easy on the gaming in the interim, then come back in BARRELS BLAZING once I've got an archetype dialed in that will be like a PUSSY CONVEYOR BELT for me!"

The rest of us guys are trying to dissuade him from that, because we all know it's not going to go how he hopes and expects it will go.

Spike said:

And he doesn’t have to. By doing as I and tominho suggest. Working on your upfront game. Making it so most of the girls you approach will be green. Dramatically decreasing how much work you need to do to get laid.

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It is possible to whittle your approaching down to high likelihood approaches, yes. If you have all the pieces in place:

1. Specific archetype of girl you approach that you also have a high amount of experience with
2. Your own look/archetype totally dialed in for that type of girl
3. Specific venues you're familiar with that are excellent for meeting & hitting it off with that type in
4. Dialed in screening for approach invitations / avoidance of disinterest signals
5. Operating on high momentum

Depending on whether you consider a ping an approach or not (I still do; many guys do not), you can include those too.

Problem here is Barney is not focusing on everything involved in that.

He is focused on, e.g., having the right look. But he does not seem to be focused on developing an archetype match... more just general stuff: "fix my teeth", "put on muscle", etc.

He is also not focused on the archetype conversation/personality. If you come in looking like her fantasy guy, but you interact like some other type of guy who doesn't match the fantasy guy archetype, no hook.

All this needs to be developed in synchrony.

Besides this -- I don't see him saying, "I just want a super high strike rate, to find green girls as often as possible, and I want to have my specific type of girl dialed down to a T. I don't care about having a broader skill set, being able to get a range of girls, being able to attract girls who aren't at first into me, I just want this segment of women who are already strongly attracted to this kind of man."

Maybe he wants that, I don't know.

I know YOU want that.

Not sure if he does!

Perhaps he can weigh in!

Spike said:

This sort of advice falls under what tominho alludes to as “obsessing about saying the right things to generate attraction”.

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Kinda like "obsessing about looking the right way to generate attraction", amirite?

Spike said:

I can attest that from my experience (and skills who I discuss nightgame with, privately), none of us have girls ignoring, instant rejecting us, or having to win the friends over, nowadays. Simply because we prioritized maximizing our overall looks. That is not my opinion, just a fact.

Click to expand...

This stuff goes down a lot as your fundamentals + game improves, yes. (most dramatically, I would say, the friend cockblocks. Those should pretty much be nil)

If you absolutely NEVER have girls who are disinterested in you on approach, however, you are either opening very, very cautiously (and discounting girls you merely ping but who do not bite)... or else you have achieved a level of pickup Nirvana no natural or mPUA I have ever seen or heard of before has hitherto achieved (and should probably have your own VH1 show where they just follow you around with a camera and marvel at how every girl blows open!).

I, for one, will keep an open mind, and would love to see a show like that.

-C

Chase said:

Problem here is Barney is not focusing on everything involved in that.

He is focused on, e.g., having the right look. But he does not seem to be focused on developing an archetype match... more just general stuff: "fix my teeth", "put on muscle", etc.

Click to expand...

Yeah. He also mentions skin care and a style change. Which in my opinion (besides hair) are the most important changes you can make to start generating high levels of attraction.

barneystin said:

skin isn't the smoothest and I'm fairly jacked but stand to gain a bit more muscle and improve my style

Click to expand...

Chase said:

He makes the reasonably logical conclusion that "well, if that's what it is, it's going to take me some time to fix all that, so I might as well just take it easy on the gaming in the interim, then come back in BARRELS BLAZING once I've got an archetype dialed in that will be like a PUSSY CONVEYOR BELT for me!"

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Well @barneystin this is not going to happen. (and this is why I don’t recommend stop gaming)

the strategy is to make some changes to your style/clothes/hairstyle. Go into the field and see what kinds of reactions you get. And I’ve already touched on this in my reactions post. But if you’re not getting the reactions you want, a lot of the girls you really want throwing you IOIs, then you’ll have to make some changes. And this is going to be a never ending process of continuing to make a couple tweaks (me and skills are currently having a private conversation on jeans for instance ), until you start getting the reactions you want. Sometimes the girl you want will not notice you and therefore not throw you an IOI. But because you have a history of a lot of girls that look and dress like her, that have thrown you IOIs, you KNOW that you have a high probability of approaching her and having it go well.

Chase said:

Besides this -- I don't see him saying, "I just want a super high strike rate, to find green girls as often as possible, and I want to have my specific type of girl dialed down to a T. I don't care about having a broader skill set, being able to get a range of girls, being able to attract girls who aren't at first into me, I just want this segment of women who are already strongly attracted to this kind of man."

Maybe he wants that, I don't know.

I know YOU want that.

Not sure if he does!

Perhaps he can weigh in!

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Ok @barneystin maybe you can clarify.

Are you interested in making it easier for yourself to get the girls you really want (your type)? Or do you want to get girls who aren’t interested in you?

Chase said:

If you absolutely NEVER have girls who are disinterested in you on approach, however, you are either opening very, very cautiously (and discounting girls you merely ping but who do not bite)...

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I’d say the former. I have enough girls that I feel would be receptive, that I don’t have to approach the girls that I don’t feel anything from (and therefore not waste my time (I only game for 2 hours max per week). If you don’t have enough girls that are giving you this vibe, then I would suggest making some tweaks so you do have that luxury.

Spike said:

Are you interested in making it easier for yourself to get the girls you really want (your type)? Or do you want to get girls who aren’t interested in you?

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For what it's worth, the times I've had the most success with women were definitely not when I had the best muscles, clearest skin, best style. It's when I've had the highest momentum.

I figured I'd comment here because I talked about your kind of thinking a bit in my interview with Chase, @barneystin . For myself I chalked it up to avoidance a little bit. Kind of subconsciously letting myself rest for a while, not putting in the hardworking. It's worth considering. Looking great doesn't fix everything and it certainly doesn't prevent you from harsh rejections and uncomfortable situations. Girls can react to you in a way that is 99% based on what's going on with them internally and 1% based on you, or 100/0. Looks help but game and the fundamentals that come from momentum are far more important in my opinion.

Spending so much time in South America has made me realize this too. The amount of super hot chicks with not as attractive guys is wild. I don't know if that's because latin women are less into looks but I imagine it's not - I imagine a lot of it is because men are better able to retain their inner confidence without so much surface-level American brainwashing that American guys are hit with.

alleniverson said:

Spending so much time in South America has made me realize this too

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lol. It’s ridiculously easy getting laid in South America compared to USA. Laughable comparison

Such an interesting conversation

For anyone reading, the guys above are actually arguing about the importance of social frame in game

You can checkout THIS ARTICLE on the main site that talks about it well

Here's a strong section from that article

Social Frame Differences​

What is considered high social value can differ with context. In some environments, it is knowing the right people; in others, it is being rich; in others, dressing cool at a hip fashion club; and in still others, it's when people view you as a tough, high-value guy at a ghetto club.

It's the same with rapport. To build rapport, you need to match people's social level. Similar backgrounds, vocabulary, knowledge of topics, and some matching interests or social codes help.

If those are absent, building rapport will be challenging.

It can also be challenging to display social value and build rapport if you don't match looks, clothing, behavior, and social stereotype.

Social proof is a special case because it bypasses social frame. The socially proofed man fits in and matches the girl's social frame because "the man everybody likes" is "her type of guy." Peer approval by others may fool the eye and help people believe that one is an insider without truly being "in."

We need to look at the social frame from the correct perspective. Social proof can bypass any social frame issue. However, you cannot build social proof if your social frame is off: opening and hooking girls will be difficult-a precondition to building social proof.

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Hopefully, that article gives you some new ideas on how to dial in your social frame and hook more consistently

Also, all of @Teevster articles on social frame and calibration are must-reads in my opinion

Because getting girls is a lot deeper than "just look hot" even though that does help too

opening and hooking girls will be difficult-a precondition to building social proof.

Agreed. Opening and hooking your type, by looking and dressing as her type, makes it easy to hook other girls. Although you don’t really need social proof at that point.

The reason why i personally don't think is the social with op is cause he was not getting based on the post a negative reaction of the open,....

My wing is ripped good looking guy he was getting negative reaction from the open which he didn't used to get in the past.... 1000 percent is the social he was wearing out of style scoop tight shirt with the jogger style tight pants that Hugh the ankle, milleneal outdated style i used to wear with the vans with gum sole, invisible socks, showing ankle.... Nobody including thominho has a better body than he has,, he even competed, he owns 5 biz and has 2 bmws the top ones that open like lambo and an Escalade...he was getting negative reaction of the open he is also 15 years younger than me...i know it was his style I begged him to change offer to pay cause started fucking up my sets... Op is not getting negative reactions from opening... That is why i don't think is that..he was able to open and hook based on op...

Anyways so we don't go in circles before kj gets here... Op basically you need to keep coming out, and put more effort in break down outins, you can include in report what you were wearing etc... like James does... Go in detail so people don't miss diagnose..

Skills said:

Op is not getting negative reactions from opening

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There were two things I identified from his post that were related to looks (which includes style. Not just physical appearance). 1). Him getting ignored on the open and 2). Girls taking their friend away even after he hooked the girl.

Girls that are sexually available won’t ignore you if you are their type. And girls won’t take their friend away if they can see she’s talking to someone who they know is their type/they approve of based off their looks (which again includes style) and vibe.