FU 25yr Tattooed Italian - (Missed Escalation - Age difference - FRIENDZONE)

[JPWorld]

Gentlemen,

I’m a bit annoyed as I SO wanted this to be a LR, but there are two reasons it wasn't:

1. I didn’t escalate fast enough.
2. I didn’t escalate hard enough.

A very quick background on this girl is that last week I volunteered for a photoshoot as part of the Uni prospectus and a few other people did as well. I had never met her before but had seen her around a lot and liked her.

She’s Italian, got tattoos on her arms and has the gorgeous glowing brown skin, with dark brown eyes and big brown curly hair. (This is why I love Italians haha!)

Let’s call her Stacy.

I instantly felt some attraction from her during the 5 hour photoshoot and spent most of the time talking to her and her roommate. Especially as I had lots of Italian friends last semester and am interested in Italian culture etc. Half-way through the afternoon I went round and got everyone’s we-chat.

Unfortunately I had to leave in a rush so I didn’t get a properly say goodbye or a chance to ask for a meet.

During the afternoon, I find out she’s 25 (I’m 20)…this plays a big part later on.

I texted her two days later:

Me: Stacy, hey! It was good to properly meet you the other day! How’s it going?
Her: Hey JP, yeah it was really good haha, (then talking about going out night before) so just woke up,
Me: haha oh wow! You crazy girl (Mention I’ve had a few good nights at the same place) I’m good thank you! What are you up to this weekend?
Her: I don’t know yet! On Sunday I have an exam! I’m going out tonight but dunno where yet, are you going out?
Me: Okay, in bocca a lupo! (Good luck in Italian) I’m not going out tonight, sorry! But hey let’s get a coffee together at some point? Would after the exam be best?
Her: Crepi (what you say in return to the good luck saying), yeah sure, why not!

(By third text have asked for meet, done this a few times now)

We then sort out logistics, I text her the next day to change to the day after originally planned as something popped up. I text her half an hour before meet-time to check she’s still good.


Tuesday

So I meet her in the Uni lobby and go for the Italian double kiss cheek (I quite like doing this no matter what nationality, gets some contact in right from the start - and can also show you're cultured).

I take her to a coffee shop literally just outside the uni, pay for her drink (even though she tries to refuse) and we take a seat.

We quickly got comfortable with each other and I instantly start asking her interesting questions. One thing I’m finding a lot about dating international girls is the amount we spend talking about travelling. So we cover previous and future travel plans.

I also got a bit of touch in there, which made me happy, as I've been thinking a lot lately on how to get more touch in on a coffee date, where you have to lean across the table.

After about an hour and a half I suggest we head back to mine to watch a programme we had previously mentioned, she agrees but says she has to leave at 17:00, (so that would give us about 45 mins).

We get in and my homestay family are out. I show her my room and then head to the toilet, giving her a minute to get excited in my room. We climb onto the bed and I find the show on netflix, but we don’t watch it at all. We start talking a lot and she gets a bit closer, starts laughing more excitedly and generally gets comfortable.

After about 10 minutes, she’s trying to think how to say a word in English, and just before she says it, I lightly grab her chin and pull her in a kiss her. She instantly closes her eyes and we start sharing lots of small, short kisses. (I actually wasn't very nervous before this, I felt as if she was kind of knew it was going to happen at some point).

However, she didn’t get as passionate as I thought she would. She seemed nervous/unsure what to do with her hands and I thought I was going too passionate with the cheek/neck holding.

This is where I didn’t escalate enough.

We then stop-start stop-start, talking, giggling, flirting and cuddling.

We kiss a bit and my Chinese Grandpa comes home and he sees us through the crack in the door, quickly ruining the mood. I think he left about 5 minutes later again, but we didn’t hear. So I think the sub-conscious feeling of knowing that he was home made her more restrictive.

Then we get back into it again and when we are kissing she just stops and goes:

Her: Omg, I just realised you’re 20, you’re so young!
Me: So?
Her: You know how old I am right?
Me: Yeah, 25, it’s no big deal

Trying to shrug it off.

She then says about how I was in (British) High School when she was learning to drive and other age comparisons.

Me: It’s no big deal
Her: I know it’s not, it’s just that I laugh at other friends doing this and said I would never do that, but here I am! *Swears in Italian*

But then she carries on kissing me.

We then get talking about her tattoos and she starts showing them to me, including the ones under her boobs. (I mess around and kiss the tattoos, but I DIDN’T TAKE HER TOP OFF - WHYY?)

But she didn’t want me to see the one on her shoulder, so she instantly starts being a bit more resistant when I try and pull her top up/down to look. We have some more kissing and she lets me get away with a lot in terms of thigh grabbing/stroking. But I still didn't escalate.

She still seems bothered about the age thing, but carries on kissing. Then she says she has to go (it was past the time she originally said)

Me: But you want to stay *In between kisses*
Her: I do! But I really can’t.
Me: 5 more minutes.

Should have escalated here.

After some more kissing and stroking, she says she really has to go, so I agree to walk her nearly all the way home, as she didn’t know the area. When walking home, at one point crossing the road I just grab her hand and we hold hands, and when we said goodbye we do ‘couple-like’ things where we kiss, she walks off, I grab her hand and pull her back in to kiss again.

Don’t know if this kissing in public made her more uncomfortable?

I then thought about how to proceed as it was a failed escalation. I found an article by Chase and it said if it's a failed escalation, text her 2 days after the date and invite her to a party.

Damn it.

Unfortunately, I have no party I can arrange and have absolutely no logistics. So I tried to play for a round 2, where she would come straight to my place.

So I texted her two days after (today) saying:

Me: Stacy, hey! How’s your day going? I enjoyed seeing you Tuesday - I’d love to see you again this weekend, how busy are you?

Her: Hey JP I’m okay thanks Actually this weekend I’m going to XYZ festival so I’m not gonna be here for the whole weekend but anyway…I’m sorry, I really like you but more as a friend, so if you wanna hang out sometime as friends I would love to

(FRIENDZONED!)

Me: Oh wow, well have an amazing time! That’s okay, fair enough Out of interest did the age difference bother you?

Her: Yeah, it bothers me a bit, I told you haha ‘Chuckle emoticon’

Me: ‘Chuckle emoticon’ that’s cool! To be honest this was never going to be totally serious and just to have some fun, so if you don’t feel comfortable, I totally understand! However, if you would just like to have fun in your last weeks here in XYZ before you head back to boring Italy and don't want anyone to find out/know about it, I can do that

After sending that I think it looks kind of weak and am awaiting a reply. Although I felt quite powerful in the whole interaction (first texts, date, escalation and this bit), especially as she is 5 years older, but I feel this may have made me look almost desperate. But I was simply trying to convey the message of ‘look, I know you like me but you think too much, let's just have some fun!’

I think I should have just sent that.

My game, especially the first part has come on leaps and bounds and is pretty solid. I was so damn surprised when I had this 25yr sitting on my bed kissing me, but I just didn't push hard enough. This second part needs more refinement and I missed so many opportunities to have made this work, but I felt as if it would have been uncomfortable?

Thoughts?

Cheers

- JP

 

[PrettyDecent]

Re: FU: 25yr Tattooed Italian - (Missed Escalation - Age difference - FRIENDZONE

JP,

Having the girl who was the center of attention of a photo shoot and then bringing her back to your place and making out - well done! It is a shame you lost her, but hey, that's part of this whole learning process.

Let's go line by line:

(By third text have asked for meet, done this a few times now)

Not central to this report, but it sounds like you've been working on your text game lately? If you are, then you're texting is pretty good, you're really enthusiastic and that's going to get you a good conversion rate from text -> date. So most of the work there is done. Now, you can add the finishing touches by minimizing your amount of visible effort and start getting the girl in the chasing position - you can do this by:

A. Shortening your texts at least to the length of her previous messages
B. Using slightly less emoticons and exclamation marks

I've tried jotting down examples of these rules in your style of writing within that first text conversation, but I haven't come up with anything that sounds like it'd come from you and not me! Just keep those two in mind and experiment with it in your own tone, because it does make a difference in who's in the chase position at the very beginning of the date.

We quickly got comfortable with each other and I instantly start asking her interesting questions. One thing I’m finding a lot about dating international girls is the amount we spend talking about travelling. So we cover previous and future travel plans.

I also got a bit of touch in there, which made me happy, as I've been thinking a lot lately on how to get more touch in on a coffee date, where you have to lean across the table.

After about an hour and a half I suggest we head back to mine to watch a programme we had previously mentioned, she agrees but says she has to leave at 17:00, (so that would give us about 45 mins).

This all looks good. In this report, she gave you an escalation window to sex, so I imagine you did well on the date!

What might help us give better feedback in the future is if you include highlights of the conversations (sexual frames, qualifying her, how you touched/escalated touch with her) or if there were points where you felt the conversation lulled, and what happened right before it did. These events have a passive effect on your escalation, and actively working and getting feedback on these can be like getting an ounce of prevention instead of a pound of cure.

We start talking a lot and she gets a bit closer, starts laughing more excitedly and generally gets comfortable.

This is the escalation window. I'm not sure whether this is 10 minutes after you enter your room that she starts getting comfortable and you kiss her, or you go for the kiss 10 minutes after this moment - but if it's the second, and you let her emotions cool down before you went for the kiss, then this is where her resistance came from.

If you escalated at that moment as soon as she started getting closer, you'd have had significantly less resistance.

Here's the psychology behind it: her willingness to let you become intimate with her is based on how much she lusts for you at that particular moment. If those emotions cool off (and they can change in something quick, like, 10 seconds), she now has to see if she logically wants to have sex with you. It can still be done, just less probability of success is all.

We then stop-start stop-start, talking, giggling, flirting and cuddling.

Imagine this: you've started escalating with a girl, she accepts your advances. You touch her, she touches you back. You kiss her, she kisses you back. But then you stop escalating it any further...how do you get to sex if she can only follow your lead?

Trust me, you aren't alone in this because everyone makes this mistake. It's the classic "playing it safe" strategy because you don't want to risk losing your investment in this girl. Be conscious of this, and keep escalating - because the only way to win is to risk failure.

We kiss a bit and my Chinese Grandpa comes home and he sees us through the crack in the door, quickly ruining the mood. I think he left about 5 minutes later again, but we didn’t hear. So I think the sub-conscious feeling of knowing that he was home made her more restrictive.

Ah, rough that had to happen! I'd say this was the end of the escalation. She doesn't have the lust you need to propel the escalation forward, she senses this and decides she needs to leave. So she's going to use any excuse that she can to do that, using the time, your age, whatever. There is no actual logic in the objections themselves, which it sounds like you could sense.

-

Anyway, I hope those tips help you, JP! You sound like you've come a long way in your journey already - you've brought a pretty girl back to your place in this report, and it sounds like this wasn't the first time (if it was, I'm very impressed!)

For now, just remember, pass through escalation windows as soon as you see a hint of lust while she's in your room and you're going to run into much smaller resistance!

~Nick

 

[JPWorld]

Re: FU: 25yr Tattooed Italian - (Missed Escalation - Age difference - FRIENDZONE

PrettyDecent, hi there!

JP,

Having the girl who was the center of attention of a photo shoot and then bringing her back to your place and making out - well done! It is a shame you lost her, but hey, that's part of this whole learning process.

I know, man. Absolutely kicking myself after this one, but I'd rather mess this one up, learn from the mistakes and lay five more!

Not central to this report, but it sounds like you've been working on your text game lately? If you are, then you're texting is pretty good, you're really enthusiastic and that's going to get you a good conversion rate from text -> date. So most of the work there is done. Now, you can add the finishing touches by minimizing your amount of visible effort and start getting the girl in the chasing position - you can do this by:

A. Shortening your texts at least to the length of her previous messages
B. Using slightly less emoticons and exclamation marks

I've tried jotting down examples of these rules in your style of writing within that first text conversation, but I haven't come up with anything that sounds like it'd come from you and not me! Just keep those two in mind and experiment with it in your own tone, because it does make a difference in who's in the chase position at the very beginning of the date.

Yeah, I mean I haven't got a lot of numbers recently, but when I have it's usually on the third text I ask. And I definitely keep it under the 5 that Chase recommends. Yeah, I've noticed I use a lot of exclamation marks! I quite like using this "...!", but I'm thinking I should add more "-" in as well. I'll tone down the emoticons

What might help us give better feedback in the future is if you include highlights of the conversations (sexual frames, qualifying her, how you touched/escalated touch with her) or if there were points where you felt the conversation lulled, and what happened right before it did. These events have a passive effect on your escalation, and actively working and getting feedback on these can be like getting an ounce of prevention instead of a pound of cure.

Now you mention it, the date did go really quite well, definitely one of my best. There were very few lull moments, and if there were, she usually filled them in whilst I sat back. Despite her being foreign, she was extremely easy to talk to...!

A few examples of touch include when she explains she did something bad/embarrassing I would touch her forearm or tricep. At one point she wanted to know which part of England I was from so I took her hand, laid it flat on the table and started touching her hand where different cities were. I can guarantee no one has ever told her their hometown like that before! Another example back at my place, when she was being a bit more giggly and silly, was when she wanted to know how to spell my hometown, so I used my finger and spelt it out on her thigh. (She was wearing some shorts with a like 'air skirt', which she sat on, so her thighs were completely bare - I was stroking them so much but I still didn't push harder..I'm so stupid haha!)

This is the escalation window. I'm not sure whether this is 10 minutes after you enter your room that she starts getting comfortable and you kiss her, or you go for the kiss 10 minutes after this moment - but if it's the second, and you let her emotions cool down before you went for the kiss, then this is where her resistance came from.

When we sat down, she started getting more and more comfortable, and after about 4-5 minutes I really noticed it and knew that I could kiss her. Then I kissed her about the 10 minute mark from her walking into my place (Not 10 minutes after I noticed she was comfortable)

Imagine this: you've started escalating with a girl, she accepts your advances. You touch her, she touches you back. You kiss her, she kisses you back. But then you stop escalating it any further...how do you get to sex if she can only follow your lead?

^ This. Just. This.

What you have just written there has now been ingrained in my head and I will remember it for a long time. Spot on.

the only way to win is to risk failure.

^ And this.

Ah, rough that had to happen! I'd say this was the end of the escalation. She doesn't have the lust you need to propel the escalation forward, she senses this and decides she needs to leave. So she's going to use any excuse that she can to do that, using the time, your age, whatever. There is no actual logic in the objections themselves, which it sounds like you could sense.

I KNOW! The thing is we didn't hear him leave, so it's not as if I could go "Oh, he's left now" and step it up a notch. In my last LR (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9790&p=47505#p47505) I had got her home and she didn't want sex, but when the Grandpa came home, she did. So we ended up having sex with him just outside the door. (This is why she orgasmed so much - I read on Men's Health about how the risk of getting caught strengthens the pleasure neurones or something, thus making her orgasm more/harder - no wonder there were so many!)

So I thought it wasn't a big deal and we carried on kissing. Then she sat a bit more comfortably by sitting next to me, then I swung her legs over mine and rested them on my thighs. After a while I think we kind of forgot about my Grandpa, but I think the sub-conscious feeling for her was still there. She's probably thinking "not a great first impression if he hears me ( ) before he's even met me!"

Anyway, I hope those tips help you, JP! You sound like you've come a long way in your journey already - you've brought a pretty girl back to your place in this report, and it sounds like this wasn't the first time (if it was, I'm very impressed!)

Dude, I really appreciate you taking the time to do that! From coffee date back to mine, yeah first time. I had it all worked out haha! The other LR I just mentioned had the EXACT same situation, but I got her back to hers instead. Same there. Kissing and bra off, then no more. (Obviously eventually laid her) But hopefully I've properly learnt my lesson now!

So I texted her two days after (today) saying:

Me: Stacy, hey! How’s your day going? I enjoyed seeing you Tuesday - I’d love to see you again this weekend, how busy are you?

Her: Hey JP I’m okay thanks Actually this weekend I’m going to XYZ festival so I’m not gonna be here for the whole weekend but anyway…I’m sorry, I really like you but more as a friend, so if you wanna hang out sometime as friends I would love to

(FRIENDZONED!)

Me: Oh wow, well have an amazing time! That’s okay, fair enough Out of interest did the age difference bother you?

Her: Yeah, it bothers me a bit, I told you haha ‘Chuckle emoticon’

Me: ‘Chuckle emoticon’ that’s cool! To be honest this was never going to be totally serious and just to have some fun, so if you don’t feel comfortable, I totally understand! However, if you would just like to have fun in your last weeks here in XYZ before you head back to boring Italy and don't want anyone to find out/know about it, I can do that


After sending that I think it looks kind of weak and am awaiting a reply. Although I felt quite powerful in the whole interaction (first texts, date, escalation and this bit), especially as she is 5 years older, but I feel this may have made me look almost desperate. But I was simply trying to convey the message of ‘look, I know you like me but you think too much, let's just have some fun!’

Your thoughts on the text I sent (which she still hasn't replied to)? Too weak?

Cheers man, appreciate it!

Gotta' risk it to get the biscuit

- JP