A more effective INDIRECT process? Tell me what you think...

[Ryan]

A question: Why is opening direct more effective than indirect if it promotes chasing and loses the mystery and intrigue behind the encounter too? She probably loses respect for the man, as the woman knowing his intentions, now also knows what he wants, and she's in the position of absolute power (relative to the man) whether to give it to him or not. The man can only create an illusion for the woman to convince her that the roles are reversed. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

When i wrote about this in one of Z Vaunswa's threads, he replied with this:

Annndddd... in my opinion whenever you open a girl with an intention in mind then you're chasing her, the point is to turn the tables and get her chasing you. Doesn't matter who starts chasing who because you can do a lot to get her thinking about you as the "prize (as Chase says)" so she chases you.

I understand and respect his opinion, but it still seems like an ineffective and uphill battle to change the direction of the tide.

Now i may be going off on a bit of a tangent here, but when i was younger, i used to be fascinated by those who had the personalities shaped by the 'dark triad'. Especially Machiavellianism. I read autobiographies, writings and accounts from men sitting in prison who were dangerously seductive that they had perfected a way since childhood of getting people to do exactly what they wanted, without using force or obvious, open persuasion (making it seem it was a free-decision of the other person to benefit the Machiavellian seducer).

Unfortunately, i can't remember the names of the books i read (it was about 5 years ago, and i found it in a pretty deep and dark part of the web when i was searching for Casanova's memoirs in English). I'm unsure you would find even half of these books in your local bookstore or amazon. They were very contriversial and graphic. But a few teachings from these books have always remained with me, albeit dormant within my mind. It is only when i was thinking hard about this topic could i remember it again.

He was saying something of the lines of this:

'You must plant a seed of a thought within a person's mind. This seed cannot be seen as conspicious, even when analysed by the person being seduced. It must seem as a mere passing thought of yours with no apparent importance.
To grow within the person's mind, and hence obstruct her other thoughts during its growth, you must water it occasionally with imagery and metaphors, but never just blunt words. But the right balance must be found. Too much, and your wishes upon her will be realised. Too slow, and the growth within her mind will wither. It is important to note that words she can comprehend and analyse cannot contribute to this, for they are nothing but a veil for your true intentions. Your real seductive intent must pass through deeper levels within her mind, where she cannot retrieve or comprehend the origin of such thoughts. Only when such seeds of desire have taken root, can the host to this growth be turned with more bold words to your advantage, while thinking it was within her free-will to do so all along.'

It was written similar to that, but only much more poetic. I can only vaguely remember that paragraph.


So, following inspiration from this, Girls Chase teachings, and the same seduction techniques offered in those books that i can still remember, here's a different idea for opening and attraction that might just work:

1. Open indirect (preferably in the style described in Chase's ebook: slow opening). Begin friendly and platonic to gain trust, and hence an opportunity to expose her psyche to your seductive intentions.

2. Increase your sexual vibe, non-verbals and fundamentals as high as you can (this will be needed to make her mind less likely to reject the sexual desires you create in her mind for you, but allow them as much room as possible to grow within her mind. Your friendly words will betray what your non-verbals/fundementals would communicate, so she will not notice this at first. But her subconscious will recognise snd be receptive to your sexual attraction. And in time, she will be able to be seduced from this too. Words are just there to hide this, so the influences of her attraction to you can bypass her mental filter undetected. This also means she doesn't feel discomfort or awkwardness.

3. Keep using subtle methods of attraction (such as chase-frames, qualifying, etc), but keep blunt tools of attraction such as compliments, (which she can notice/analyse) to the absolute minimum. Going direct is not advised.

4. Continue using step 3 while deepening the level of conversation/deep diving. Include emotional subjects and topics with underlying sexual connotations for extra effectiveness. During this time, she may feel an unexplainable urge to continue interacting with you. She finds you enticing, and the seeds of attraction are starting to grow within her mind, but she cannot explain why. In essence, she is chasing you.

5. Close the conversation smoothly, not abruptly, but as effectively as possible, to avoid breaking the 'spell' she's under, as the attraction will still be fragile at this time. Arrange a meet up for as soon as possible, allowing her emotions and attraction to start consuming the rest of her mind and hence resistance.

6. As soon after you have finished the interaction with her, text her the details of your next meeting (the exact time, place, etc). Do not contact her during this period afterward. Lessening contact will evoke more emotions within her to your benefit, whereas hearing from you will relieve her and make her feel like she has some control again (not what you want).

7. Arrive at your arranged location, whereby the method of attracting her remains the same as before, only that you must decrease the friendly feel to your conversations and increase sexual tension proportionally in a gradual process. Still do not go direct. By now, she will feel attracted to you, and will chase you.

And i'm sure i don't have to tell you what to do next

Tell me of what you guys think of this different method. I amost felt possessed when i wrote all that. All those shady books i read when i was young (wanting to know how to attract girls even then!) suddenly awoke this moment and i felt compelled to write everything i can remember down.

Ryan

N.B. what would be extra helpful is if someone with excellent fundamentals could put this method to the test a few times and report back.

 

[Franco]

Ryan,

A question: Why is opening direct more effective than indirect if it promotes chasing and loses the mystery and intrigue behind the encounter too? She probably loses respect for the man, as the woman knowing his intentions, now also knows what he wants, and she's in the position of absolute power (relative to the man) whether to give it to him or not. The man can only create an illusion for the woman to convince her that the roles are reversed. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

There's a lot of other factors rather than just "if I open direct, then this will happen" or "if I open indirect, then this will happen." Environment, situation, and the type of girl can all play a factor into which opener may or may not be more effective. I would practice both openers a significant amount until you start seeing dates and lays before trying to provide an alternative method of opening -- no one is going to walk onto a basketball court and teach Kobe Bryant a better way to play basketball.

A general rule of thumb though is that direct is almost necessary if you're in a club environment. Girls are moving quickly and don't want to waste time hearing banter from a guy that may or may not be interested unless he's extremely attractive and she thinks it worth the wait, but if you're banking on every girl seeing you that way, then you're going to have inefficient results. Opening direct shows confidence and no fear that you're willing to take what you want, and often times when a girl goes out, she knows from experience that 95% of conversations she'll have with men won't lead her anywhere, so opening direct with solid fundamentals is going to stand out BIG time because it shows what kind of man you are and where you're willing to go with her.

During day game or a lounge environment, I'll often open indirect. Indirect can be very effective if you know there's a good chance the girl isn't going to go anywhere and there aren't a lot of guys approaching, so she's a lot more likely to listen to what you have to say when you do approach and give you a shot to build attraction. The same rule goes with day game; girls have their guards down during day game, so while they might be a bit surprised when you open them, they'll often hear what you have to say if you're dressed well and have a warm, sexy vibe about you.

But that's not to say direct doesn't work well in day game, too. What's nice about direct during day game is that it's efficient. You'll know within the first 30 seconds of talking to a girl whether or not she finds you attractive, so you're not wasting time talking to her for minutes (maybe even an hour) just to have her see the conversation as platonic and not be willing to go out with you. During that time, you could have approached 20 girls with direct and gotten 3 or 4 phone numbers with 2 or 3 dates!

Overall, I would say it depends on your style as well. Some guys just aren't good with opening indirect and still maintaining a sexy, flirtatious vibe that she'll pick up on and know that you're going to follow through with. If you're a bit less empathetic and have a hard time reading women, direct can be much more effective because you're essentially stating your intentions by throwing it all out at the wall and seeing if it sticks. Since women don't often get hit on directly (especially during day game), then she might just be turned on by the fact that you had the confidence to do it, and you won't need to waste 5, 10, 15, 30 or even 60 minutes trying to do that!

So, both types of approaches are effective, but keep in mind that you, her, and the environment can all play a role in which type of opening will prove successful. When you really go out and practice a lot, you'll actually start to feel a sense of awareness and what type of opener might be best for the situation. I use both direct and indirect these days, and it's often just more of a "gut" feeling as to which one I go with. So go out, practice both in different situations, and see what gets you the best results. =)

- Franco

 

[Richard]

Annndddd... in my opinion whenever you open a girl with an intention in mind then you're chasing her, the point is to turn the tables and get her chasing you. Doesn't matter who starts chasing who because you can do a lot to get her thinking about you as the "prize (as Chase says)" so she chases you

Its only an uphill battle when you're driving for something like sex, or a relationship.

Because most women will not approach a guy and chase him from the get go, its almost always up to the guy to get her to chase you if you think about it logically, and the guy approaching her is chasing when he has a hidden agenda.

Me, my "game" is naturally me and very bare bones now, no gimmicks or routines, just "Hi" some banter, solid fundamentals, and job well done. I open a girl to get to know her, not to get sex, and she ends up chasing...

 

[flowerpower]

A question: Why is opening direct more effective than indirect if it promotes chasing and loses the mystery and intrigue behind the encounter too? She probably loses respect for the man, as the woman knowing his intentions, now also knows what he wants, and she's in the position of absolute power (relative to the man) whether to give it to him or not. The man can only create an illusion for the woman to convince her that the roles are reversed. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

I used to struggle with the exact same question. The way I see it now is like a recruiter for a famous sports club who would go up to a promising new talent and indicate to him that if he's up to the challenge they might give him a chance in the team. In other words all you do is tell the girl that you might be interested and that she might have a shot. That's not chasing, and I realized that by watching the right examples (actors like Gary Cooper, Sean Connery, etc. even George Clooney). Before that I'd only thought it was chasing because I was only picturing inept guys going direct, guys who would go all out on a girl and who were unable to read her signs. So I guess it's partly a matter of ridding your mind of the wrong examples.