After 1st Date - how to proceed further? Time limit?

[Natureman]

Hey guys, will you please give me your view and advice?

1st date happened 11 days ago.
I just let her know I am in the town she lives in.
She suggested we meet together.

With a glass of wine we were strolling around the town late evening. She was showing me some places then we walked along the river with a lot of mutual deep diving. I think very good connection and rather a lot in common. She resisted my touches at first but later she was comfortable with it. She resisted kiss in the middle and at the end - saying that is an unacceptable pace, which made me smile.

Texted her day after in the evening how she arrived home, she replied.
Texted her day after to answer that date was fine and asked how about the new semester - no response.

After 3 days I am calling her - 1st call not accepted, called her 3 hour later
Proposed a second date. She a bit hesitatnt as the new semester is starting this week,
Saying it's "indefinite" now.
(we are some 200km /3 hours by train far away; she Bc. student me working professional;
let's say there is some objective - logistical - obstacle)
I would call the call neutral but her hesitation took me be surprise. I expected cooperation.


She seems to be a bit shy but already one week before the date happened, an initial date didn't happen as she was sick (gave her the benefit of doubt).
No chasing. The date itself ran very smoothly.

How to proceed further?
I'd give her some space - but not unlimited. What would be a reasonable time limit?

Wait one week and then call/text her to find out?
Wait 2 weeks and then call/text her?

Difficult for me to assess what is too little and what is too much here.

How to FRAME the text/call?

How do you read the situation?
Any hints?

Thanks

 

[Finalstep]

Hey guys, will you please give me your view and advice?

the new semester is starting this week

Saying it's "indefinite" now.

(we are some 200km /3 hours by train far away; she Bc. student me working professional;
let's say there is some objective - logistical - obstacle)

Well, with "indefinite", her being really busy (not faking it) right now and the distance, I guess you still have
a good chance to succeed. After all she did not block your phone call which is a good sign.

 

[Natureman]

Wait one week and then call/text her to find out?
Wait 2 weeks and then call/text her?

So I let it be for 2 weeks.
During that time she didn't come back to me.

I called her one time after those 2 weeks (2 days ago). Phone was ringing but I couldn't reach her.
She hasn't come back to me so far.

NOW, I think this is my last 'shot'. More than that at a time I'd consider chasing.

I give myself a space of 1-2 days.
I'd rather avoid the situation where I am calling and don't reach her again.
Would switch medium instead and send a text. In a text I'd playfully invite her for a date.

Hi small fish,

how's been swimming in cold <citiyname> waters?
Already found your new small pool to rest in there?

I quite enjoyed the time with you in <citiyname>. I had the impression
you'd like to better get to know my je ne sais quoi.

I'd like to see you again and maybe even play a bit (and less invasive**) with your hair.
How do you feel about that?

Let me know when youre free - maybe at the weekend to see each other.

Myname[/size]


English is not that poetic as my mother tongue and it's difficult to
translate the playful subtleties and there's also some internal humor in it.
But the meaning is conveyed.


** during the date she told me calmly to touch her in less invasive way
But she enjoyed my playing with her hair.
So I'd like to let her know I am ready to respect her pace.

(just in case: we're talking about central Europe. Women are more relaxed here
than in the US. Not really much meetoo women here..)

How do you see that?

THANKS guys.

 

[Michal]

Hello Natureman,

To me this seems like a lost cause already but things to point out.
1) I would wait 4 -5 days and then send a text. Given that you called 2 days ago, sending a text in 2 days seems appropriate. Reason being, you called, she most definitely saw that missed call, so sending a text too soon would seem like you really are chasing.
2) scratch that text and make it simplier. 2 lines maximum. The text shows you are investing too much. You also try to bend to her will because you want to respect her pace (the invasive touching).
3) The text looks like too much effort. Not only from you but also just to reply to it would take. It instills a lot of differebt emotions and then there are kike 3 questions and a "command" to let you know. That is too much, I have no idea how I would reply to it if I got it. There is a high chance she already forgot about you. And it implies in the text that you are afraid she did as well, so you want to reference some stuff to make her remember. To be honest, I see why it looks like a good idea to you to send text like that. I sent a text like that twice and it only got "seen" on whatsapp.

Even though I know this type of text is not a good choice, I have not tested following. Which is one of Chase type of messages like:
Hey, [name], I was in a food festival last week, swedish meat balls were the winner for me. How have you been?
Just from top of my head, I am kinda bad at sending messages like this. I am bad at recovering situations like this as well so maybe some more senior guy can help you with crafting a better texr.

 

[Seppuku]

It seems the date didn't go that well after all, or otherwise it wouldn't be that hard to get her to meet again.

About your "invasive" touch, this is coming from lack of calibration. Your initial touch should be "under the radar", like incidental touch, but not obvious enough so that she consciously notice it. Then from there, observe her reaction first and adjust. If you don't see some kind of touching back, just keep on touching "under the radar". If there is still no positive reaction, try taking her hand in yours and leading her, e.g. in a "follow me" fashion, when you move. Get a sense about how comfortable her hand feels in yours. Is she following your lead smoothly? Or do you sense some sort of resistance, some willingness to remove her hand as soon as possible? All these are cues to your touch escalation. If you get positive cues, then you are safe to touch more openly, deliberately, and more daringly. But not sure where you stood exactly on this. You said that she eventually got "more comfortable" with your touch. But then she describes your touch as "invasive".

The kissing. Well, I personally never go for the kiss on my dates. It is a double edged sword that can fall back on your head. It gives your intentions away and kills the mystery. It kills tension. Much better to keep her guessing "why isn't he trying to kiss me?". But well, what I'm not sure in your case is, did you manage to kiss her? You said she resisted. If you tried to kiss her two times and didn't get the kiss, this is negative compliance. She is resisting your leadership, defying it, and getting away with it. Not good. In the future, she will have more incentives to resist and defy you even more. It is best to avoid negative compliance from the get go if possible. But again, not sure if I read it well. Did you manage to get these kisses?

If I recap what happened next:

• Your second text, no response
• Your first call, not accepted
• On your second call, you ask her out but do not get a clear answer, e.g. "indefinite"
• Two weeks later, you phoned, no answer, and yet she saw your missed call

I think your message "I want to take you out again" went across loud and clear. She heard it. Yet strictly no move from her. Never called you back, never initiated texting. So this is not going good.

I personally believe that if I made my message clear and she doesn't respond in anyway, or show any sign of interest, means it's time I moved on to a more promising prospect. But if you really want to persist, then give it another go. Once. The last shot. If still no response or no interest or no move from her, then you have to call it quits and move on.

For your last shot, try a message. I agree with Michal, your super big text is too much investment. It comes across as "try hard" and chasing. I would normally advocate a very low-key texting, such as "her Mary, how is it going?"

But in your case, for your last shot, you need an electro-shock to get her out of auto-pilot. I liked your "I had the impression you'd like....". Why not modifying it a little to make it even more of a chase frame, and also provocating her.

"You really enjoyed the time with me in <cityname>. I had the impression you'd like to better get to know my little "je ne sais quoi""

Just this. No Hi small fish, now how's been swimming in cold waters etc.... No asking her out. Just this, and see if she responds. It is a provocative message, turning the tables on her. See if she responds before making any more move.

Remember, your message "I want to take you out" has already been heard loud and clear.

Also, your odds are low at this stage, you'd better be ready to accept to call it quits.

Seppuku

 

[Natureman]

Hey Michal, Seppuku, thanks!

understand and accept.

3) The text looks like too much effort. Not only from you but also just to reply to it would take. It instills a lot of differebt emotions and then there are kike 3 questions and a "command" to let you know. That is too much, I have no idea how I would reply to it if I got it.

OK, had a similar feeling. Now I finally also rationally understand why.

The text shows you are investing too much. You also try to bend to her will because you want to respect her pace (the invasive touching).

My intention here was this: let her know I sufficiently realized her objection and show self-reflection, so that she knows she's safe with me.
Anything bad about that?

Any other way how to undo that (that possible feeling of her she's not safe with me/or that I am not respecting her boundaries)?

 

[Natureman]

Seppuku, thanks!

As for action:
a) this is clear

But in your case, for your last shot, you need an electro-shock to get her out of auto-pilot. I liked your "I had the impression you'd like....". Why not modifying it a little to make it even more of a chase frame, and also provocating her. 
"You really enjoyed the time with me in <cityname>. I had the impression you'd like to better get to know my little "je ne sais quoi""

Get her out of auto-pilot by an electro-shock, that's exactly it! You are a godsend!
(She speaks a little bit French. At the date she even taught me how to correctly pronounce "femme fatale" )

b) Let's be optimistic and think a few steps ahead. If she did answered - not to screw up again - what would be (in general) the next 3 steps?


If I was religious I'd pray for you. Since I am not, I will at least learn the French anthem by heart in your honour.

 

[Natureman]

As for deeper analysis and lesson to learn from for me for the future:

It seems the date didn't go that well after all, or otherwise it wouldn't be that hard to get her to meet again.

Hm, that's honestly what I didn't want and did not expect to hear. I thought I must have screwed up with the second text after the date (as here she stopped responding) and with the call (was getting cold at that time so not felt comfortable myself).
I think the age difference and distance only adds to it here in a bad way.

Your initial touch should be "under the radar". But not sure where you stood exactly on this. You said that she eventually got "more comfortable" with your touch. But then she describes your touch as "invasive".

Thanks for the detailed guidance on the strategy of touching. That's where I think I could have done better and must definitely improve.

Did you manage to get these kisses?

OK, I'll uncover more of the story… focused on the key points in a linear way.

We had some incidental touches at the very beginning. While exchanging cups with wine. (btw. While I was going to buy a wine for us she already
asked about the split - she wanted to invest; I paid the 1st round but after a while my cup fell to ground so she immediately bought a new one for me - a good start I thought). So touching. Yes then - as you suggested - I wanted to make a bolder move when we were out
of people's sight. So, I first started to put my hand around her. Which she commented after a while so I withdrew and tried
again in a while. But I felt that it was still not smooth enough and was kind of searching for a st more comfortable.

While approaching a bridge she was qualifying herself as relaxed telling me she once walked over the upper bridge arch (dangerous)

Started playing with her hair while we paused and talked on the bridge. Do you know what? That was okay. No resistance.
Here I first tried just to come closer to her face but saw a mild discomfort/nervousness of her, so withdrew immediately.
On the bridge a.o. she told me she had had (I assume this might had still be ongoing at that time) a long(er) distance boyfriend and that SHE was visiting him. But told also she haden't want to move in with him. She was kind of putting him down clearly. I talked about my foreign studies
and love for French women and their love for me. She seemed intrigued.

Then on the way back to town she complied at my suggestion that we sit on a bench (15 minutes). Deep diving and sharing more about myself.
While touching her (arm around her waist, second arm on her knee). When I got more intense with the touch then she told me to touch less invasive. So I withdrew for a while, taking it seriously. Then touched again. Focused on her hair instead. Stroke her in her hair from the neck upwards and did two times what I call a "smell check". (Approached my nose to her neck and tried to smell her scent. She obviously was curious so I told her what I was doing. First pretended I am not sure about her smell, then told her "this might be working" ). That one she clearly liked. Next when I tried to get closer to kiss - that's where she resisted. So I went back to a convo and touching later like stroking her soft backhand. (remember also she resisted my attept to put her hand at my knee somewhere before). It was dark park alley at the river almost no people around. In hindsight it seems to me she must have trusted me quite a lot.

Three last incidents.

While entering the town who would have expected that? There was a kitten lying on the pavement. I squated down and started playing with it and stroking it. She followed me just squating down and here she goes after a while: "at least someone who likes to pet today". We continued to the town and I asked her playfully wheter this was a criticism. And she said it was a criticism of herself. That puzzled me a bit. (Also she invited me for their village festival in late October.)

In town she suggests we go to a place where there was a music and people dancing (big and popular Wine Festivities taking place that weekend - all around the town). I suggested we go dancing and join other dancing couples - midnight, everybody having fun- , put out my arms she resisted and suggested we leave. So then we went for her bike and headed home in common direction, talking and separating our ways some 15 mins later.

Here, I did not want to attempt to kiss her again so I told her "Well, I'll get something" (to ask for compliance - worked okay with other girls before). She pondered and said in a neutral tone "You won't get a kiss." (so she was thinking of a kiss) So I tried to kiss her instead. Resistance. She told "that's an unacceptable pace" I smiled, we talked a bit and said goonight then. Here I thought I screwed up but given the fact that she responded to my text day after I reevaluated my view after.


I perceived the thing with kissing this way: she's a melancholic (=person with real depth); these people generally tend to také relationships more seriously. Maybe she's also more structured. So I think she had kind of hard rule of no kissing at the 1st date. Other things yes, but no kissing.

The kissing. Well, I personally never go for the kiss on my dates. It is a double edged sword that can fall back on your head. It gives your intentions away and kills the mystery. It kills tension. Much better to keep her guessing "why isn't he trying to kiss me?

OK. What are the exact conditions that must be met to do that (not kissing) but not to appear weak at the same time?
I know from other schools of seduction (e.g. C. Wayne) that they suggest to go for the kiss
a) to test the woman's degree of interest b) not to appear weak /many less-confident men would not go for it, so going for it might separate you already/


Appart from the connection, there is one reason for which I don't want to let it be so easily. Her PATTERN OF SILLY RESISTANCE from the very beginning.

I was on holiday in her region and I cold approached her. She was a guide and info-spot girl in an open air museum.
e.g.

a) It went like: "bla bla I'd like to get to know you have beautiful blue eyes." She: "That is usually not enough.That won't do."
Me: "That's why I'd like to get to know you to know wheter you are smart, witty and can cook well."

b) me asking for number - she: "you are persistent" … "I won't feel like going out"; next day me: sending her text: "I am glad I have a new nice and smart friend." she: "… that smart that she obviously gave you the right number - that's lovely/cool"

She flaked first but finally the date happened anyway. That's why I think if not more than try and learn the most of it.
Nexting after all - even though mostly effective - is a basic skill for the very beginners who don't know other ways.

If you made it till the end, thanks.
Comments of course are more than welcome.

 

[Seppuku]

Natureman,

OK thanks for the additional info. This is the level of details you need to provide in order to get a more thorough feedback. So it seems you did a few things good, but also a few calibration mistakes. That should be easy to correct I think in your future dates.

Hm, that's honestly what I didn't want and did not expect to hear. I thought I must have screwed up with the second text after the date (as here she stopped responding) and with the call (was getting cold at that time so not felt comfortable myself).
I think the age difference and distance only adds to it here in a bad way.

Yeah sorry. Just look a little bit around in the Boards, you will see lots of reports where the guy thought all was good, she seemed to laugh at his jokes, he thought the date went well, but the next day she wouldn't return his texts.

Here is a fact. Girls are all about emotions. And emotions change all the time. Just because she seemed to display good emotions, is no guarantee of anything. The next day, or three days later, who knows how she may be feeling. The key to seduction is to act on the positive emotions on the spot. Beat the iron while it's hot.

And when she doesn't respond, and when it feels so hard to reach her after that, it is usually not because the text was poorly crafted. More like, emotions turned cold.

Oh and I wouldn't worry about the age difference, that's minor. All my girls are 20 to 25 years younger than me - so that's not an issue. Just make sure you take care of yourself after 40, and try to look your best.

So touching. Yes then - as you suggested - I wanted to make a bolder move when we were out
of people's sight. So, I first started to put my hand around her. Which she commented after a while so I withdrew and tried
again in a while. But I felt that it was still not smooth enough and was kind of searching for a st more comfortable.

This seemed uncalibrated. From incidental touching straight into arm around her? It can work, yes, if she is really into you. But if she's hesitant, you risk a negative reaction, like here.

I would say, if you don't have clear signs that she's excited about you, step up your touch more progressively. From incidental touching to deliberate touching (her shoulder, her hair). How is it accepted? Also, extend your hand near her hand and see if she places her hand into yours. Another trick is the selfie session. Take out your phone like you are going to take a selfie, take her by the arm and gently approach her to you. Get her close, have an arm around her waist then with the free hand take the shot. How does it feel?

These are important cues that will tell you how much comfortable she is with your physical touch. If all good, then step up your touch. If not, carefully work on building more comfort. Then try again.

If you feel some discomfort, you can try "fractionation". Get close, touch. Pull back and withdraw from physical contact. Then try again. Many times.

You had a few things doing good also. She was not comfortable enough to have your arm around her. But she would let you touch and smell your hair and like it (I do it too). She mentioned about the BF but it seemed more like to ease her conscience, also a good sign. I guess she required more work on physical comfort.

Your attempts at kissing, when she had already rejected your touch a few times, were clearly a mistake. Now she stacked up some negative compliance, a situation you want to avoid. She's not fully comfortable with your physical presence, she won't kiss.

Another case where kissing is a mistake: you manage to kiss her, her emotions spikes up, but you don't take her to bed right after that (for any reason). The next day her emotions fall down and now she turns full cold on you. Game over. It's like failed escalation.

That's why I'm so surprised that some coaches out there advocate a "kiss close". Yeah, it will boost your male ego, and make you feel you scored a hit. but will it actually improve your chances to go further? I don't think so.

I do make out with my dates, yes, when they are in my home, aroused, and we are just about to make love. That's the right time for kissing.

Which takes me to my next question:

Did you have a plan to pull her in an intimate place right after the date?

Trying to take her in a seduction place would have been a better move than trying to kiss her. In fact, it's surprising how many girls are open to a casual sex with a guy "just traveling by the city". The casual fling with no social consequence. The BF will never know, the girlfriends will never know, and the guy himself will be gone the next day. No chance of being labeled a slut. No chance that the guy will turn into a needy, annoying creep after that. That's why my best seduction stories are when I travel. All my best memories to this day.

And that's why they are open to a casual fling with a passing stranger initially in the first place. But the situation is different of course after you gave her good sex - because then she may come back to you and ask for more.


OK man, now in my opinion you should try this "electro-shock" text, and see. If still weak response, juts move on.

Seppuku

 

[Natureman]

it seems you did a few things good, but also a few calibration mistakes. That should be easy to correct I think in your future dates.

At least this sounds optimistic.

The key to seduction is to act on the positive emotions on the spot. Beat the iron while it's hot.

Yes, agree. Will remember that. Actually that's what I did. But, yeah, calibration. I overdid it.
I must replace some bad concepts/habits.

This seemed uncalibrated. From incidental touching straight into arm around her? It can work, yes, if she is really into you. But if she's hesitant, you risk a negative reaction, like here.

Seem this was the major mistake.

I would say, if you don't have clear signs that she's excited about you, step up your touch more progressively. From incidental touching to deliberate touching (her shoulder, her hair). How is it accepted? Also, extend your hand near her hand and see if she places her hand into yours. Another trick is the selfie session. Take out your phone like you are going to take a selfie, take her by the arm and gently approach her to you. Get her close, have an arm around her waist then with the free hand take the shot. How does it feel?

These are important cues that will tell you how much comfortable she is with your physical touch. If all good, then step up your touch. If not, carefully work on building more comfort. Then try again.

If you feel some discomfort, you can try "fractionation". Get close, touch. Pull back and withdraw from physical contact. Then try again. Many times.

Yes, next time. Thanks.

I guess she required more work on physical comfort.

That's very pitty. Seems I was rather close.

Your attempts at kissing, when she had already rejected your touch a few times, were clearly a mistake. Now she stacked up some negative compliance, a situation you want to avoid. She's not fully comfortable with your physical presence, she won't kiss.

Another case where kissing is a mistake: you manage to kiss her, her emotions spikes up, but you don't take her to bed right after that (for any reason). The next day her emotions fall down and now she turns full cold on you. Game over. It's like failed escalation.

That's why I'm so surprised that some coaches out there advocate a "kiss close". Yeah, it will boost your male ego, and make you feel you scored a hit. but will it actually improve your chances to go further? I don't think so.

Thanks, now I understand. Actually before learning all of the stuff I was more natural.
Hence Natureman however I had no clue why something works or not.

My assumption regarding the promotion of kissing by some coaches is this:
- if - as implies what you said earlier - she is comfortable with your presence, then what objections to kissing might she have?
- if she does have objections and won't kiss, then I would assume her interest is too low
- e.g. C.Wayne says women who reject the kiss might be a control freak. I however feel that in her case
it was that she needed more comfort with the touches.

Did you have a plan to pull her in an intimate place right after the date?
Trying to take her in a seduction place would have been a better move than trying to kiss her. In fact, it's surprising how many girls are open to a casual sex with a guy "just traveling by the city".

No. The date was improvised. I just let her know I am in the town and honestly did not expect her response at all.
We met maybe an hour after that.
I myself was sleeping in my female's friend appartment. Hotels were totaly booked out months before.
She (21-22) lives with her parents.

OK man, now in my opinion you should try this "electro-shock" text, and see. If still weak response, juts move on.

It's been 5 days since I sent the text. No response up until now.
I am moving on. BUT - I don't think I've ever tried this before - is there any way how to contact her maybe in a month's time?
I might be visiting the city where she studies next month.. What specifically should I write in that case?

The bad thing for me is that I found her as an excellent GF material for me. And the sad thing is that women like her I meet
on average once a year.

What an image of me might she probably have in her mind now?
In what drawer/sack did she probably put me?

Thanks

 

[Natureman]

One thing that came across my mind is whehter mistakes like I did could
somehow be reframed as "misunderstanding". What do you think, Seppuku?

 

[Seppuku]

Seem this was the major mistake.

I guess she required more work on physical comfort.

That's very pitty. Seems I was rather close.

Well, don't beat yourself. Just take the lesson and remember it next time. If you have to remember one thing:

Be aware of her comfort level, and adjust accordingly.

My assumption regarding the promotion of kissing by some coaches is this:
- if - as implies what you said earlier - she is comfortable with your presence, then what objections to kissing might she have?
- if she does have objections and won't kiss, then I would assume her interest is too low
- e.g. C.Wayne says women who reject the kiss might be a control freak. I however feel that in her case
it was that she needed more comfort with the touches.

Yes I think so. Not just ready yet. But also, if she accepts the kiss, and you do not escalate to sexual level right away, she could wake up feeling cold towards you the next day. Stay on the safe side and kiss her when sex is about to happen.

No. The date was improvised.

Ahaaa no plan for the date, except trying to "make her like you". When I go on a first date, I am very clear about my plan, before the date starts:

• Will I try to bring her home at the end of the first date?
• Or if I know I won't have enough time, my objective will be to bring her to bed on second date.
• I know where I will bring her later
• I have selected my date location, so as to facilitate the "pull" later on
• If I go for two dates pull, my goal on the first date will be to keep it short and leave her "wanting for more". It's more difficult to pull off.

All this, before the date starts.

My goal is not to make her like me. I assume that, if she came to the date, she already does like me. My goal is to make her physically and emotionally comfortable so that she will follow me to the bed without resistance later. "Getting a kiss" is not a valid objective. "Making her like me" is not a valid objective. "Taking her to bed" is a valid one. And once she went to bed with you, things will become incredibly easier after that. THEN you can have as many kisses as you want. THEN you can start thinking about taking her for girlfriend, or not. Not before.

Bed first!

It's been 5 days since I sent the text. No response up until now.
I am moving on. BUT - I don't think I've ever tried this before - is there any way how to contact her maybe in a month's time?
I might be visiting the city where she studies next month.. What specifically should I write in that case?

This is another instance of "the cleverly designed, strategic text message that will get her back". Gosh how many times I have seen this in these Boards. And I have tried to help. But the brutal truth is:

When it's fucked up, it's fucked up. You can strategize your texts all you want, you're not going to change that. Seduction is NOT about salvaging messed up situations. It's about doing it right in the first place.

In my opinion, you would better be working on bringing in 5 or 10 new girls, than trying to salvage one "failed situation". Much better use of your time and energy. But oh well, guys usually don't listen to this sort of opinion so if you still want to give it another try, I won't tell you what to write (there is no such thing as the magical text that will win her back) and just reiterate the basic rules of texting:

• No chasing ever. Ever.
• No neediness. Write your text, don't send yet. Read it again after an hour and check your tone for cues of neediness.
• Always low key text. Casual, cool, laid back style. No high pressure on her. "Uber cool" is the word.
• No one kilometer long "try hard" text message. One or two simple sentence. Get her to chat first. Then ask casually.

The bad thing for me is that I found her as an excellent GF material for me. And the sad thing is that women like her I meet
on average once a year.

"That one special girl". Noooo man. There are tons like her. Plus, this mindset carries its own neediness and will actually kill off your chances. She DOES NOT want to feel that she is the key to your happiness on this earth. That you depend on her for your well being. That she is your only option in this planet. Quite the opposite. You should work on getting other options asap. In fact, if you want to become good at that, you should always be having 5 or 10 new girls in your radar, and never attempt to work on "that special girl" beyond two dates.

What an image of me might she probably have in her mind now?
In what drawer/sack did she probably put me?

Sexually aggressive, but in a creepy way. And probably needy as well. "Not that sort of man" would be my guess.

Sorry for being blunt, but sometimes bluntness is what we need.

Apart from that, let me reiterate. You did a few things good, and probably lost her by (i) being uncalibrated, and (ii) not having a plan for the date. Both of which can be fixed - on the NEXT date, with ANOTHER girl.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Finn2018]

Hey Natureman,

I read the entire thread here and agree mostly with Seppuku about the need to measure how comfortable she is with touching and then act based on that. I think here you made an error by putting your arm around her, first date is normally way too early for that, I normally only do that AFTER I have kissed a girl. I think here she got a bit uncomfortable and that then blocked you from kissing her. If you had not put the arm around her then you might of had a better chance to kiss. But he's right - it's all about calibration. And then escalation. I think here you touching was not fluid and too much too soon. I would definitely advise to only ever put arm around a girl on a first date AFTER you have kissed her. On the kiss issue, you should not have tried again after she rejected the first time. I think at this point you already had 3-4 non-compliance signals from her and by trying again you came across as too forceful. Next time, gently touch the small of her back when going in a door, etc or when you tease/joke with her give her the odd friendly squeeze/hug with your arm behind her back and your outstretched hand on gripping her opposite arm, that works for me as a way to build trust and get the girl comfortable with you touching her. So I think lessons to be learned from that.

Normally if I am on a first date I will develop a little bit, but good quality, touch contact, nothing creepy, just on the arm or back, and then at the end of the date I will use my classic line (which works 95% of the time) to seal a kiss. If you feel the date goes well, ask the girl at the end of date (or during it if the rapport and mood is right!)...."so, do you have a policy about not kissing on the first date?" and deliver that with a cheeky smile. Trust me, it works all the time for me. Normally the girl will go in for the kiss. However, if she is not ready, needs more time, then asking this cheeky question also allows them the space to say "yes, not on the first date". And that can prevents so much awkwardness and allows you live to fight another day. I only had one girl who said no, but I took her on a second date and at the end she said to me "you know its not the first date anymore?" and we kiss and I had her in bed about 20 minutes later. So touching, and kissing you gotta get the mood right and measure her comfortability with it. As Seppuku suggests, set a few tests early in the date to guage her mood. But dont destroy your chances by going too far (e.g. arm around her waist too soon!).

Regarding the texting, I think you had already blown it at this point. But it was salvageable, everything is at the end of the day. I think you should have text her a day after the date something funny like "Hey, was a nice date, lovely to spend time with you! Sorry for being a bit forward the other night, but if I like something then I just want it right away lolol. How's your day?" Make light of it and show that you can make fun of yourself at the same time. I never call a girl, especially if I dont get a text reply: it puts them on the spot and she likely screened your calls. After such a date I would send max 2 texts (or calls if you prefer, I wouldnt though), the first being funny and taking the piss out of myself and the second to ask for a another meet up. If no reply after 2 contacts from your side then let it go and accept it is over. If you really want this girl you will need to go no contact for a month and then, if you really, really want to, take a punt: go to her city for a weekend, message her that you are in town and it would be great to catch up and see if she responds. Wait until you are in town before messaging her, so she doesnt have too much time to think about it. Nothing heavy though. Your text sample above was a big no, no. Too much. Keep it short, funny and snappy. Not "try to hard". Something a long the lines of: "hey XXX, am back in town this weekend as from tomorrow. Free for a drink at some point? Would be great to see you! I promise I'll try to behave myself hehe...well, maybe just a little bit ;-)"

Good luck, but I think this one is done. You had a couple of errors on the date, NEVER push to kiss two times after getting negative compliance on touching. You need to get the touching right first, or just dont do it at all...also good. Sometimes I dont do any touching and still kiss at end of date using my classic line. If she thought the date went well then she would reply to you after and text you back, she doesnt seem to be doing that so that's THE sign. I would say you need to chalk this one down and learn from it. HAVE BEEN IN THIS SITUATION SO MANY TIMES ALSO!! But nowadays I find it easier to sense correctly what a girl wants during the date, if that had been me I would know that after the date there was no future with that girl. Watch the body language, and if you get negative compliance DO NOT push further, be funny, witty and teaser her: and she will chase you! Sorry for being blunt and dont beat yourself up too much over this. Learn from this. Mistakes are good - but only when your learn from them. Good luck buddy.

 

[Natureman]

Thanks again. Bluntness is appreciated best.
No need to bullshit myself.

I'd like to conclude here with few last questions - this is a great lesson for me and I feel
that there will a great leap forward progress soon thanks to you.

Ahaaa no plan for the date, except trying to "make her like you".

Actually my intention was to get to know her better and see if she qualifies at all first.
Second my goal was to see how far I can get with her on that date in terms of intimacy.

What would have been your plan - goals in a situation where you know that you
can't bed her on that (first) date?

Saying this:

My goal is to make her physically and emotionally comfortable so that she will follow me to the bed without resistance later.

What specifically does that mean in terms of action? (e.g. just talking like deep diving, teasing a bit and incidental touches and that's it for the first time?)

"That one special girl". Noooo man. There are tons like her. Plus, this mindset carries its own neediness and will actually kill off your chances.

Great point.

She is definitely not the one special but just one - however - of the few I find "special" (= compatible/attractive)

Actually I think I understand the concept of abundance mentality BUT
I assume this applies specifically in 2 cases:

a) for mainstream people as they (both men and women) being a majority in the society have a very large pool of counterparts to click with; unfortunately not me;

Though being very sociable connecting well with powerful high status people over normal crowds up to people at the very bottom of the society I feel rather as an outsider. (sigma)

/example: far too many women with (almost) no personality or interests that I find boring or immature or both, oftentimes surprisingly over-confident about themselves - mainstream women; on the contrary meeting e.g. another women I got involved with earlier this year - a law student, works more than part-time to provide for herself during the studies as her parents can't, who regularly goes to a shooting range, rides a motorbike around Europe, is a bee-keeper, can play a piano, does sports and is kind and modest – that high-caliber is not that common; Do you want to doubt imho a mere demographic fact that women of that sort are considerably scarcer? I am not quite getting it here.)

b) if you live in a big city (The town I live in has 50k, the town I come from and currently work on it's very outskirts has 300k people).
Compared to when I lived in completely anonymous 3,5 mil capital abroad it feels like a big difference.
In where I've been living for the past four years, I oftentimes bump to the same people in the street over time..

If not a) or b) occurs, do you think the real abundance as well as abundance mentality following from the awareness of the real abundance is possible?
(here I am prone to believe pickup/street game / seduction has it's limitations).

She DOES NOT want to feel that she is the key to your happiness on this earth. That you depend on her for your well being. That she is your only option in this planet. Quite the opposite.

Yes, agree. Thanks for verbalizing it like that. It helps with internalizing that. I experienced that kind of feeling from when I sometimes was the one being chased too hard. This feels very off-putting.

Here comes a very imporant question for me to ask:
How in a seduction do you act towards a woman so that it feels (for you) and comes across as genuine, authentic and true to yourself?
How do you couple your "seducer persona" with your true self? How do you balance that? This is where I struggle a bit.

Key to my happiness on this earth is for sure myself. But would we be true to ourselves if we denied that having a supporting women
in our life adds significantly and makes one's life definitely better?

This imo neither equals the mentality of the "ONE and only special girl" nor does that exclude the fact that screening the women is going
to be an ongoing issue at least for couple of months ("getting to know her see how and where things are going" = exploring), not that one completely falls for her.

Let me ask you this: how would you best present yourself as having this mindset to a woman so that it correctly comes across?
That is the possibility for her to become my girflriend is neither aimed at nor exculded. But if she qualifies her gradually becoming a gf
is welcome.

Maybe I drew just a part of the picture (of my mindset etc.) in the previous post but reading your response I am afraid I must have
some serious problem with the presentation of myself.

I came to realize that the ultimate point where I fucked up is probably in the inner game because theory (maybe badly understood or
put togehter from different and conflicting sources) told me I have to take action. So I had an internal conflict with what I would naturally do
(e.g. not putting my arm around her waist, not kissing her at all) and I believe women can sense that incongruence. Second must be the presentation of myself.

What an image of me might she probably have in her mind now?
In what drawer/sack did she probably put me?
Sexually aggressive, but in a creepy way. And probably needy as well. "Not that sort of man" would be my guess.
Sorry for being blunt, but sometimes bluntness is what we need.

Thanks

Apart from that, let me reiterate. You did a few things good, and probably lost her by (i) being uncalibrated, and (ii) not having a plan for the date. Both of which can be fixed - on the NEXT date, with ANOTHER girl.

Thanks!

 

[Seppuku]

Actually my intention was to get to know her better and see if she qualifies at all first.
Second my goal was to see how far I can get with her on that date in terms of intimacy.

What would have been your plan - goals in a situation where you know that you
can't bed her on that (first) date?

These goals are OK as an experiment, to understand what is possible, but if the plan is real life seduction, they are not bold enough. For seduction, you need to demonstrate sexual confidence: ability to make her submit sexually with utter confidence and smoothness. It's about boldness and self confidence, and smooth leadership to the bedroom.

If I know from the beginning that I won't be able to bed her the same day, the next best option is to go for a short (like 1h or 1h30) date where my goal is to leave her "wanting for more". You absolutely need to avoid arousing her too much, because emotions may fall flat the next day. So there is a thin line. Absolutely no kiss.

Then a few days later (ideally within 48 hrs) a second date where, this time, you have an intimate place available to pull her.

What specifically does that mean in terms of action? (e.g. just talking like deep diving, teasing a bit and incidental touches and that's it for the first time?)

I need to make her emotionally comfortable. I do that by making her tell me her story, and where I do active listening. The more she talks, the better.

Then I need to make her comfortable with my touch. I start with incidental touching, then progressively increase my touch to intentional touch, then become more bolder. Typically, within an hour, I have her a couple of times in my arms (such as for a selfie), and if we change location I take her hand and lead her. Sometimes, depending on how it feels, I may even touch her sexually (such as her boobs), and wrap it with a sexy comment, but that's not absolutely necessary.

When I feel she is comfortable with me, I end the date, and tell her "let's go." then take her hand and walk towards my home. Before she knows it, she is in front of my bed.

Though being very sociable connecting well with powerful high status people over normal crowds up to people at the very bottom of the society I feel rather as an outsider. (sigma)

Actually I am more like the lone wolf, rather than the social guy. Not being a socially savvy guy was never a problem for me.

If not a) or b) occurs, do you think the real abundance as well as abundance mentality following from the awareness of the real abundance is possible?
(here I am prone to believe pickup/street game / seduction has it's limitations).

Well it is so much better if you live in a place where you have tons of options at hand. Without a feeling of abundance, you will come across as needy. Neediness, in all its forms, is the biggest attraction killer. So if you want to become good at girls, you should go to a place where there is abundance.

Here in Doha abundance has dried up over the last two years - not sure why, but the quality and quantity has dropped. But I compensate by traveling regularly to places where I know I will find tons of options. I have tried Philippines and Kenya recently with good success. Without going that far, you may want to see what are the closest places that work for you, and arrange regular trips.

Seduction when you are traveling is actually easier! Because you are here for a short period a time, that gives a natural time constraint. Interested girls will make themselves available in this time. Also, the fact that you live elsewhere makes you "low social pressure".

Here comes a very imporant question for me to ask:
How in a seduction do you act towards a woman so that it feels (for you) and comes across as genuine, authentic and true to yourself?
How do you couple your "seducer persona" with your true self? How do you balance that? This is where I struggle a bit.

By "seducer persona" I mean I become very aware of my own frame, in order to keep control of the frame. Things like being aware of my body language to not give myself away, or remaining unfazed by her beauty, or keeping a sexy, cool confident vibe. For the rest, it is all the real me!

Key to my happiness on this earth is for sure myself. But would we be true to ourselves if we denied that having a supporting women
in our life adds significantly and makes one's life definitely better?

It is utterly important to understand that in order to keep her attraction at the top, you must always be willing to walk away from her if it came to that! Because the minute you are not able to walk away, is the minute you become needy. Which is the number one attraction killer. If it comes to that, you need to be able to walk away. And she needs to be aware of that fact. That will keep her on her toes!

Let me ask you this: how would you best present yourself as having this mindset to a woman so that it correctly comes across?
That is the possibility for her to become my girflriend is neither aimed at nor exculded. But if she qualifies her gradually becoming a gf
is welcome.

• Devil may care attitude. Won't be a big deal if she leaves. That's impudence!
• Sexual confidence.
• Non controlling mindset
• No insecurities
• Open mindedness.

I came to realize that the ultimate point where I fucked up is probably in the inner game because theory (maybe badly understood or
put togehter from different and conflicting sources) told me I have to take action. So I had an internal conflict with what I would naturally do
(e.g. not putting my arm around her waist, not kissing her at all) and I believe women can sense that incongruence. Second must be the presentation of myself.

That you rush to put her arm and kiss her when she is not ready for it signals insecurity and lack of calibration. You can do all these things, when she is ready. So the best is to always be aware of her receptivity.

Seppuku