After 2 dates - girl has all the power

[orkie123]

Hi guys, long time lurker and had a coach call with Hector years ago but new to the forum as I broke up with my gf of 3 years four months ago.

I've been conflicted on what I want (do I even want casual sex or just to improve myself until I can attract the girl that I want long term). I've now realised that no matter how strong my mental will is, I need at least semi-regular sex to be able to focus on my other life goals. Before my ex, I did have multiple FWB at one time but it was always just an ego boost rather than a need, so now I'm being a lot more selective even for more casual encounters.

Due to those conflicts, it took me 3-4 months just to go on a first date. Luck would have it, she is probably top 3 of girls I've ever dated purely on looks. Here is the summary:

• Randomly sat next to each other in a group event at a bar 2 months ago. She was hyper focused on the event, but I forced a conversation and got her Insta. I was very rusty and still too heartbroken so after initial icebreaker on message, decided not to pursue as she was semi-cold.
• Week and half later, I commented a joke on one of her stories and in a way got her to qualify herself. She did and I used it as a reason to meet up to prove it to me. She said yes.
• We both had to go away for around 2 weeks, nothing happened, no texting.
• When I came back, I texted her to meet up - she said she was busy until the Friday as she had exams. I took it as a flake so said "Ok let me know when you are free"
• To my surprise, she asked "So when are we going out" on Friday and I set up the first date two days later.
• Given how rusty I was and that she is hot, I was happy with how I came across on the first date. However, she's clearly been hurt recently and was adamant she is looking for a connection before sex when I asked her to go back to mine. I've heard this before but I didn't handle it perfectly because she anticipated how I would normally handle it. This definitely was the point where I failed the test and lost frame but at least the date was going well.
• In the end, we moved locations twice and normally I wouldn't kiss in bars but it's been a while since I had kissed anyone other than my ex, and there was this hot girl giving me the "kiss me now eyes" so we made out a few times. Then she got into an taxi, made out with me again just prior to leaving and went home. She let me know she got home and that was that.
• Next day in the evening, I proposed a 2nd date at another bar. She initially accepted then flaked the next day.
• Waited a week, invited her to a small party I was hosting and said she can bring a +1. Initially she accepted then she got ill and was on antibiotics (can confirm it was true)
• - Waited a few days and then proposed I cook for her at mine. She accepted but was only free like 5 days later. In total there was 3 weeks between 1st and 2nd date.
• - She offered herself to buy groceries on the day before I even asked so I was impressed. I asked to bring her fav wine and to dress sexy. She liked the 2nd request but tested me on it which I handled quite well IMO.
• - Date went well but English isn't her first language and my strong point definitely is my personality and humour, which was tougher for me to show. I've become decent at massage and used it to turn things more sexual further than she thought we would initially but still she was adamant that nothing was going to happen. This time I handled the test much better but every time she got lost in the moment she would "wake up" and say "I'm getting too turned on, so I'm going as it is too early". Then she said (which I think was just being in the moment + not perfect English) She wants to feel love before she has sex as she was hurt too many times.
• She did tell me she wasn't dating anyone else and I said that even though I like her vibe and don't mind getting to know each other better before we get too intimate, if we are going to see eachother once every 3 weeks, this wasn't for me. She said no we have to see eachother more often etc. This was repeated once or twice more without my probing. At the end of the night, she texted me to tell me she got home safe and that was that.
• Decided this time to wait 2 days before texting. I was hoping she would initiate texting given that she herself seemed to suggest we should meet up more often.
• Texted her with a photo of something interesting and probed her a little. She responded slower than usual similar to what happened after 1st date. I was busy anyway so I matched her speed proposing to meet up for a 3rd time. No reply 16 hours later (similar to after 1st date before she flaked), usually responds within 30 mins max 1h30 a part from when she flaked after first date so it seems going to be a similar story.

I know she gets a lot of attention but she portrayed a lot of green flags - does not check her phone at all while on the date, insisted she clean up all dishes after cooking, was compliant in requests to test submissiveness etc. However, I think that I'm either a backup choice or the provider choice. She only initiated text once (asking to meet up for first date).

Is there anything I can do to grab some power back? Even if it is too late with this girl, I want to be able to get in a position where I don't feel like the girl has all the power. I feel like the answer is I need to increase my value in general and be smoother but let me know if you have any specific advice!

Thank you in advance

 

[HoofHearted]

Did you feel like you ever had power?

I've always felt the only power I've ever had at this stage is to engage with multiple women at the same time.

To me, it doesn't resemble power vs. power, like a grapple.

More like a meeting of her specifications. In that way, she has all the 'power' for now...

For the question at hand, I don't think there's anything you can do. What you should do is date more women, get better at it, and kick this down the road into the future. Maybe you try again later, or maybe you don't.

I see that a lot. Shit doesn't work out. Guy makes the proper exit, and down the road aways when time and circumstance change things, who knows?

It's also not super specific, so hard to know where you slipped out precisely. But it sure seems like you took a bad step somewhere. IMO first 'date' should've gone farther, and been simpler.

 

[orkie123]

Did you feel like you ever had power?

I've always felt the only power I've ever had at this stage is to engage with multiple women at the same time.

To me, it doesn't resemble power vs. power, like a grapple.

More like a meeting of her specifications. In that way, she has all the 'power' for now...

For the question at hand, I don't think there's anything you can do. What you should do is date more women, get better at it, and kick this down the road into the future. Maybe you try again later, or maybe you don't.

I see that a lot. Shit doesn't work out. Guy makes the proper exit, and down the road aways when time and circumstance change things, who knows?

It's also not super specific, so hard to know where you slipped out precisely. But it sure seems like you took a bad step somewhere. IMO first 'date' should've gone farther, and been simpler.

During dates, I do feel like I'm more in control of things. Sure she stopped intimacy going too far but I at least have the capability to try. When she isn't responding, the only thing I can do is to do like you said, date others and exit.

Speaking of exits, what would your proper exit strategy be? I'm half tempted to send her a voice message that is friendly but stern if she ignores or downplays the invite, but I feel that no matter what choice of words I use, it will come off as butthurt. I feel like the best thing to do is just stop texting her for a month+ unless she initiates dates and then if I still feel like it, I can reply to a story of hers to revive things

 

[HoofHearted]

No no. No voice message.

No more now, no chasing.

Relegate her to outer orbit, and move on. If a taking shot comes up in the future, that's a bonus. If not, whatever. She's just a potential sprinkle on the cupcake.

Go find multiple new women to talk to. Talk to more than one at a time.

 

[orkie123]

No no. No voice message.

No more now, no chasing.

Relegate her to outer orbit, and move on. If a taking shot comes up in the future, that's a bonus. If not, whatever. She's just a potential sprinkle on the cupcake.

Go find multiple new women to talk to. Talk to more than one at a time.

I've meeting a healthy amount of girls but due to some personal reasons, I don't want to have sex with girls who I do not consider at least viable for relationship. I try to flirt and get to points where I can see attraction towards me to keep my momentum high but otherwise I'm being selective.

Appreciate the advice. It makes me laugh how a girl can be telling me to suck her tits with just her pants on one night while saying nothing is going to happen until we build a deeper connection, and then not give enough fucks to respond to a message 2 days later.

Do you think it's ever a good idea to slow down time between texting for next date? I'm the kind of person that initially needs momentum to keep my own attraction to a person. I.e. if I have to wait 1+ weeks for each date, I forget the fun vibes and things we shared. It's so bad I keep notes on interesting stuff girls tell me while dating. But I get the feeling that I come across as too eager to meet again. Then once I go aloof for some time, the "repulsion" from the eagerness calms down and they are open to meeting again.

For example, for both the 2nd and 3rd date when I pushed to meet again too quickly (Icebreaker text -> she replies -> Lets go out text) she pulled away. But the times when she did agree to meet up, there were a couple more messages:

(Respond to her story with a curiousity building statement -> she asks about it -> I respond with a funny pic -> she asks how my party was -> I respond with short joke and "something was missing though" -> she guesses "hot girl from X part of the world" -> I reply " Don't be silly, had enough of those" which was true and she had seen my story with better ratio of girls then boys. I then make an inside joke implying her and say she owes me a favor -> she asks what kind of favour -> I suggest a date where she helps me cook for us -> she agrees -> I ask for schedule

The 2nd exchange was very smooth but she also played along and was answering nearly instantly. When she replied to my photo message after our 2nd date, it didn't really give me anything much to play with apart from asking where I had gone. So I responded, "lets grab drinks and I'll tell you all about it". No response.

The truth is, I felt like it was a bad time to ask her out given taking her time to respond. I think I should have left her on "read" and re-engaged on something new a few days later, but because of what I said earlier that I like to meet up more frequently, I didn't trust my gut.

 

[HoofHearted]

I've meeting a healthy amount of girls but due to some personal reasons, I don't want to have sex with girls who I do not consider at least viable for relationship. I try to flirt and get to points where I can see attraction towards me to keep my momentum high but otherwise I'm being selective.

I feel a little impatient with this, and i think it's because you wrote your own best response. If you don't want to spend your time fucking girls because you don't like them good enough, why not spend that time finding girls you like good enough to fuck then?

Or really just anything other than hyper-fixating on just one girl.

'More girls' really does solve a lot of problems for the male mind in these situations.

Appreciate the advice. It makes me laugh how a girl can be telling me to suck her tits with just her pants on one night while saying nothing is going to happen until we build a deeper connection, and then not give enough fucks to respond to a message 2 days later.

Nah don't get bitter. Own that circumstance. What she needed, you didn't give her... or whatever it took, you didn't do. And that's okay. I fuck up all the time. Just own it.

It's not uncommon for women to tell me "we are not having sex tonight" or "only just my mouth" and then I lol because I've heard it so much. Most times it's just a hurdle for you to get over *in that moment.* Yes. Women who want sex purposely make things harder for you. Sometimes they do it to check if you're a strong enough guy. Sometimes they do it because their fantasy requires you to appear to be that guy.

And sometimes it's informative. Maybe your girl was just really saying 'talk to/connect with me more/slow down/make me feel comfortable.' Or maybe she was just wanting to watch how you get over that particular objection (this is my read, but I wasn't there, so who knows).

Externalizing the cause isn't helpful, is the main point. If you assume it's local, that your actions had bearing on the outcome, then it becomes something more in your control, to work with and to change.

Do you think it's ever a good idea to slow down time between texting for next date?

My opinion is minimal texting, but others (some with more success) have different opinions. And I run highly verbal by nature, so I fuck this rule up a lot.

I'm also good at texting, from years of being atrocious at it, and wordy. As good as I (think) I am, nothing beats minimalism imo, at least until after an established sexual relationship.

The truth is, I felt like it was a bad time to ask her out given taking her time to respond. I think I should have left her on "read" and re-engaged on something new a few days later, but because of what I said earlier that I like to meet up more frequently, I didn't trust my gut.

I just keep arriving at my original conclusion. Word it differently all you'd like, but here we are.

You are seeking actions to take within a situation that seems to not be in your favor (based on writing), and growing worse. My suggestion is to acknowledge there are no real actions to take, almost anything you would try could devolve it further, it's the trying and the focus on it itself that is harming; and, due to how the situation has obtained, and to step out of the situation so that it at least has a chance of restoring.

That's what I suspect from reading. But I'm just a stranger on the internet working with text. The person that knows best is you. Are you chasing?

 

[orkie123]

I feel a little impatient with this, and i think it's because you wrote your own best response. If you don't want to spend your time fucking girls because you don't like them good enough, why not spend that time finding girls you like good enough to fuck then?

Or really just anything other than hyper-fixating on just one girl.

'More girls' really does solve a lot of problems for the male mind in these situations.




Nah don't get bitter. Own that circumstance. What she needed, you didn't give her... or whatever it took, you didn't do. And that's okay. I fuck up all the time. Just own it.

It's not uncommon for women to tell me "we are not having sex tonight" or "only just my mouth" and then I lol because I've heard it so much. Most times it's just a hurdle for you to get over *in that moment.* Yes. Women who want sex purposely make things harder for you. Sometimes they do it to check if you're a strong enough guy. Sometimes they do it because their fantasy requires you to appear to be that guy.

And sometimes it's informative. Maybe your girl was just really saying 'talk to/connect with me more/slow down/make me feel comfortable.' Or maybe she was just wanting to watch how you get over that particular objection (this is my read, but I wasn't there, so who knows).

Externalizing the cause isn't helpful, is the main point. If you assume it's local, that your actions had bearing on the outcome, then it becomes something more in your control, to work with and to change.




My opinion is minimal texting, but others (some with more success) have different opinions. And I run highly verbal by nature, so I fuck this rule up a lot.

I'm also good at texting, from years of being atrocious at it, and wordy. As good as I (think) I am, nothing beats minimalism imo, at least until after an established sexual relationship.



I just keep arriving at my original conclusion. Word it differently all you'd like, but here we are.

You are seeking actions to take within a situation that seems to not be in your favor (based on writing), and growing worse. My suggestion is to acknowledge there are no real actions to take, almost anything you would try could devolve it further, it's the trying and the focus on it itself that is harming; and, due to how the situation has obtained, and to step out of the situation so that it at least has a chance of restoring.

That's what I suspect from reading. But I'm just a stranger on the internet working with text. The person that knows best is you. Are you chasing?

You are right that I do need to get in situations with more high quality girls. The next two years were meant to be focusing on my personal health, finances and goals but I'm slowly realising how strong of a distraction horniness is so at least some quality sex needs to be part of the mix. I would say I'm not needy, but then again - I don't have a lot of experience with such hot girls. I wouldn't be sad given how far I got as my first date after a 3 year break even if she didn't text me again.

I do think I have a bit of a fixated idea about dating though. For me, if I like someone, I want to see them again quite quickly. If things start to drawn out, then I get bored - especially as it often involves more texting and boring stuff like schedules. I only like texting girls more casually if I'm already sleeping with them. It does feel like I need the chill pill unless the girl is matching my energy.

That phrase did come out bitter but I do take responsibility for most of my life. I know there were things that I could have done better and be a better version of myself. I was more laughing at how different men's and women's worlds can be. I can never imagine telling a girl to suck my balls, then head home and become unresponsive. If I didn't like her enough to sleep with her, I wouldn't even get close to sex. Then again, girls complain of guys sleeping with them and then never texting them again all the time, so maybe it's more of a me thing then gender haha.

I can only go out and find more high quality girls and if she responds or comes back in a few weeks/months, great. If not, I'll be too busy with other great women.

In terms of improvement though, I do think my biggest let down here was matching energy while texting at cool periods and playing it slower so will keep that in mind for similar cases in the future. With many other girls, this approach wouldn't be a problem. So the issue was not calibrating to the situation, especially since I was given a 2nd chance.

Thanks again for the advice and good luck to you bro!

 

[HoofHearted]

You are right that I do need to get in situations with more high quality girls. The next two years were meant to be focusing on my personal health, finances and goals but I'm slowly realising how strong of a distraction horniness is so at least some quality sex needs to be part of the mix. I would say I'm not needy, but then again - I don't have a lot of experience with such hot girls. I wouldn't be sad given how far I got as my first date after a 3 year break even if she didn't text me again.

I agree with the concept. There is no hiding from the world, or women. Or delaying. We're meant to live it real time because it changes us, shapes us, and allows our energy to flow and develop.

I do think I have a bit of a fixated idea about dating though. For me, if I like someone, I want to see them again quite quickly. If things start to drawn out, then I get bored - especially as it often involves more texting and boring stuff like schedules. I only like texting girls more casually if I'm already sleeping with them. It does feel like I need the chill pill unless the girl is matching my energy.

Not sure if I'm tracking the meaning here correctly. If the underlying meaning is that you are frustrated that women do not behave as you do/like men do in a dating scenario, then I agree you would be better off accepting that they are different from you and to change those expecations... because women are not men.

But I'm not too sure what this means.

I was more laughing at how different men's and women's worlds can be. I can never imagine telling a girl to suck my balls, then head home and become unresponsive. If I didn't like her enough to sleep with her, I wouldn't even get close to sex. Then again, girls complain of guys sleeping with them and then never texting them again all the time, so maybe it's more of a me thing then gender haha.

It seems like there's something here you could look at. All I can really think to say is looking at, understanding and coming to terms with the nature of women could be important. It is different from you, I agree with your conclusion. I just am still detecting a bit of sour grapes, and imposing a male standard on feminine nature-- which is misinformed, a sign of needless frustration and lack of experience or understanding.

I can only go out and find more high quality girls and if she responds or comes back in a few weeks/months, great. If not, I'll be too busy with other great women.

Agree. And the doing will probably change you, make you into a stronger, better and more understanding man.

In terms of improvement though, I do think my biggest let down here was matching energy while texting at cool periods and playing it slower so will keep that in mind for similar cases in the future. With many other girls, this approach wouldn't be a problem. So the issue was not calibrating to the situation, especially since I was given a 2nd chance.

Let's see if experience bears this out as true or false.

Thanks again for the advice and good luck to you bro!

You're welcome. You're a smart guy, you'll be fine, thanks for your patience with my tired tone, its from lack of sleep and inattention. Go slay.

 

[MarioTheDom]

There are some technicalities to go through your strategy but what I'm sure is the most problem here is your vibe.

I get "needy" vibe feelings from a mile away, and if I do, she must get them too.

She putted you first in the BF bucket (hence the lets' wait before sex) and slowly from there it is you fucking it up.

The reason why you should go out and bang 2/3 girls is that you get a relaxed and cool vibe back, you probably still smell of break up

 

[orkie123]

There are some technicalities to go through your strategy but what I'm sure is the most problem here is your vibe.

I get "needy" vibe feelings from a mile away, and if I do, she must get them too.

She putted you first in the BF bucket (hence the lets' wait before sex) and slowly from there it is you fucking it up.

The reason why you should go out and bang 2/3 girls is that you get a relaxed and cool vibe back, you probably still smell of break up

I appreciate the directness.

My source of the needy vibe is two fold:

1) For a really annoying medical reason that only time can heal, sleeping around right now can do more damage than good to me in the long run.
2) Because of 1), I rather only take the risk with someone who I would want to get in a relationship with and that isn't an ideal frame to be in.

Definitely an element of accepting my own worth as well, but that is mostly shaken because of the uncertainty of when this condition will go away.

Either way, I hope that in a few months the problem will sort itself out, but until then, my intent and conviction is quite scattered so it results in that needy vibe.

Good wake up call that is though. Live and learn and on to the next one.

 

[MarioTheDom]

Look I understand, and I'm happy you took my feedback with constructive attitude, you are already one step ahead instead of being defensive and ego driven responding to reality.

The best course of action when you are scattered is to regroup and start marching toward a direction, that's why the best practice is to go out and try to have as much sex as possible with as many girls because:

1) it will call back the "muscle memory" of your seduction skills
2) It will give you an immediate feedback on the current status of your "product" in the SMV
3) With time it will improve your vibes


It is going to take time for sure, but also energy and purpose tied altogether.

And a shit load of approaching.