At what point does flirting become harassment?

[Kuro]

It seems like with some girls, I can touch them all I want and they even like it. However, another girl may call me out on harassment just for touching her ankle. I recently had another friend telling me she felt harassed when this guy hugged her, yet I do the same thing all the time and she doesn't mind.

So at what point is flirting considered harassing? And how can I avoid making women feel harassed, yet continue to flirt and have fun?

 

[TheWiseFool]

Kuro,

I suggest reading this article: https://www.girlschase.com/content/7-ways-touch-girl-3-ways-have-her-touch-you.

There's also one more thing I want to add but I have to find the article containing the desired information, but it relates so so well to what you asked.

In general, if a girl is okay with you touching her than she is into yuh, and if she isn't okay with you doing so than she'll make it clear. Also, note that every girl is different. I'm assuming less experienced women will feel a jolt of electricity that catches them off guard, while experienced girls could be thinking, "O, he's touching me. Okay." You also need to make sure you have a reason for touching her rather than touching her out of no where. Need to account for if this is a new girl or a girl you've known for some time and if she liked you to begin with and still likes you (I'm not sure if you're fighting an uphill battle). Also, if you've been friendzoned, girls will probably not want you touching them in a sexual manner cos you've been labeled with the title of "friend" :/ You could back off, try to up her sexual attraction for you and then try again. That's a possibility as well.

I'm no expert when it comes to touching girls but I remember before finding this website I tried touching this girl that I was having lunch with, I decided to caress her leg with my leg under the table. Hey facial expression changed to that "deer in the headlights" look and I was just like, "O fuck..." Why do I say that? Because the semester before the same girl let me touch her like that and didn't say anything cos she made it clear she wanted to be ouch by saying things such as, "I'm cold..." etc. Two instances of when a girl likes you and doesn't like you and when touch is okay and not okay. I allowed her attraction to expire because I moved to slow.

Overall though, the girls that don't want you to touch them save you time by helping you screen for/figure out which girls are interested in you and which ones aren't, which is a win in my eyes cos you save yourself precious time and effort.
- The Wise Fool

 

[PinotNoir]

A girl feels "harassed" if you haven't built enough connection and/or she doesn't find you sexy.

A girl also feels "harassed" if she has slotted you in a certain category: friend, potential boyfriend/husband, nice guy. Therefore, she has certain expectations, and if you touch her sexually, you're not living up to those expectations/role.

I think this is bound to happen when you're a beginner and trying to improve your sexual touch and general sexiness. You haven't built up enough experience to read a girl's invitations yet.

There's some obvious things as well. If you just met a girl and have only talked about platonic things, it would be really off-putting to just suddenly grab her ass or breasts. That's most likely sexual assault.

This is a work in progress, so it's my 1st draft of the progression for day game:

Acceptable things for a....

Complete stranger:
- Touch on the shoulder (to ask a question or as an "excuse me" to get through or get attention)
- Touch on the elbow that intermediate/advanced guys use to pre-open, instead of shoulder
- Brief touch on the hand that advanced guys use to pre-open (e.g., there's a FR where a guy touches a girl's hand in a tray of CDs)

Stranger that has just opened ("Hi, my name is Pinot."):
- *Same as above*
- Shake hands
- Touch/hold hand to look at a ring and/or other item (after asking)
- Touch clothing to talk about it

Stranger that has been introduced by a mutual friend:
- *Same as above*
- Kiss cheeks (European-style introduction)

Known guy that has only talked Platonically or is in the "friend" category:
- *Same as above*
- Hug
- Link arms to lead somewhere
- Hand on top of back or shoulders (not arm around)
- If friends for a long time, can cuddle, hold hands, and kiss on the forehead (maybe also massage feet? or should I put that below?)

Known guy that has talked more sexually ("lover") or talked more meaningfully/compatible ("boyfriend/provider") and the girl has given good responses
- *Same as above*
- Hand on lower back to lead somewhere
- Closer proximity of bodies
- Touch hair to comment on it
- If sitting, slight incidental touches of thighs
- If good responses and/or on a "date," can cuddle, kiss on the cheek/lips, hold hands, and touch ears/cheeks
- If very good responses, make out (need to be in a seduction location)

"Lover" guy (she finds sexy and desires him):
- *Same as above*
- Make out while also caressing any part of her body
- Cuddle naked
- Sex

EDIT: This reminds me of the old baseball analogies: getting up to bat, 1st base, 2nd base, 3rd base, home plate.

 

[-B-]

A girl once told me "it isn't rape if the guy is hot". Basically, if you are sexy to a girl they are going to fantasize about you raping them, dominantly seducing them and things of that nature. But if you are not attractive to them (like at all), the littlest thing you do to try to move things forward is gonna label you "that creepy guy" and get you really bad responses no matter how well you executed it. In a girls mind hot guys can do whatever the fuck they want... guys who aren't hot can go fuck off. Its not an issue of what each guy is doing, it's and issue of WHO THE GUY IS that's doing it.

 

[Marty]

In a girl's mind hot guys can do whatever the fuck they want... guys who aren't hot can go fuck off. Its not an issue of what each guy is doing, it's and issue of WHO THE GUY IS that's doing it.

Agree 110% with -B- here... WHO is doing the activity is extremely important to most women. Therefore, it is critical not to be a creep or an awkward guy. In the past couple months I have cheek-kissed women, in the office, during the working day, and received an excellent response (not in front of other people of course). It's not as if they were desperate for attention either... both are totally hot, one is 23 and affianced, and the other is 26 and married (she got cheek-kisses on two occasions). But for a man who acts like a creep day in day out (hanging around aimlessly chatting to women is an excellent example), or behaves awkwardly in occupational situations (e.g. getting himself visibly friend-zoned), even a direct compliment can get him into hot water.

 

[gijas04]

A girl once told me "it isn't rape if the guy is hot". Basically, if you are sexy to a girl they are going to fantasize about you raping them, dominantly seducing them and things of that nature. But if you are not attractive to them (like at all), the littlest thing you do to try to move things forward is gonna label you "that creepy guy" and get you really bad responses no matter how well you executed it. In a girls mind hot guys can do whatever the fuck they want... guys who aren't hot can go fuck off. Its not an issue of what each guy is doing, it's and issue of WHO THE GUY IS that's doing it.

So how does one become more "hot" and less "creepy"? I know it usually comes down to having your fundamentals and sexy vibe handled but again, is this just a visualization of yourself or is there more at work here like actually having experience with being successful with women and sex?