Can I help my Dad fix his marriage??

[Mr.Rob]

Hey guys an eye opening interaction I had last night with my parents revealed how much my mom doesn't respect my dad and how my dad has completely lost the power dynamic in their relationship.

Basic gist of it is my mom will prod a reaction out of my dad (shit test) and my dad will continually fail the shit test not knowing what it is (like most men I guess).

I want the best for them and their relationship and I know if my dad worked on certain aspects of himself he could rebound maybe and end up having a killer relationship that would make them their happiest.

Advice needed.

Quick backstory: We are going to keep my moms old horse truck in town instead of at the farm and the debate was regarding where to keep the truck.

My dad wanted to keep the truck in the back of the house and my mom wanted to park both car and the truck in our garage (a two car garage).

Now in all reality my mom could give two shits where the truck is parked but she noticed my dad didn't want to park the truck in the garage for some reason he would not say.

Thus my mom prodded into his reasoning behind parking the truck in the back instead of in the 2 car garage (since it made no sense). I as well wanted to hear his reasoning behind this out of curiosity.

My dad then gave us a very weak reason being that we would have to move one object in the garage to the back of the garage and it would cause rats to come out (very weak improbable reason).

Both my mom and I knew this wasn't the real reason so we prodded further out of curiosity.

My dad then became visibly irritated and asked that we just do what he asked.

My mom prodded further and further until my dad became so irritated (and still not have given a straight answer) that he threw his hands up and left the table and walked outside.

My dad was controlled by my moms shit test and he reacted visibly.

When my dad walked outside I commented to my mom "you just want to pick a fight".

She agreed and said "until he gets upset and throws his little temper tantrum". (proving the fight wasn't about the placement of the truck at all but instead how my dad was going to react if she prodded him... which unfortunately for both of them he did)

I'm still pissed off at my mom for the complete lack of respect she showed towards my dad by that comment as it really revealed her true thoughts towards their relationship dynamic.

On the flip side of that I realize it is my dads responsibility for her thoughts towards their relationship (he's the leader afterall) and I empathize with my moms frustration towards him.

Going back to David DeAngelo's book "The Way of the Superior Man" we know that a woman wants a strong man to lead the relationship and she wants him to remain strong throughout the relationship.

She tests his strength in the relationship by prodding him and doing her best to produce a reaction out of him to see if he will react or not. The theory behind this is that if his woman can make him react unfavorably then the that means the rest of the world will make him react even more unfavorably when the world test him.

If a womans man is able to pass her tests and remain grounded and unaffected by her prodding she will respect and be attracted to her man. On the flip side if she can fully control her man through her testing and prodding she will come to despise her man and lose respect due to him being weak.

If only my father knew this he might have a way to change this dynamic and bring back the respect he so desires (that my mom so wishes she could give him if he would only pass her bullshit) then they could have a VASTLY improved relationship and maybe even have some attraction and even sex again (idk if my parents still have sex but I doubt it).

Is this something I can even bring up with my Dad? Is there any way I can help my Dad?

I think it would be awesome if my Dad learned how to be a real man in the relationship (not all his fault since social conditioning has conditioned men to not be masculine.. he doesn't know better!) and it would be awesome for my mom too since they wouldn't die in this bullshit lame attractionless marriage.

They've been married for 28 years and I don't see them getting divorced but GOD would I love for them to have the best relationship they possibly could have if they only knew they could have it!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

So my question is is their hope for them?

How could I point my father in the right direction without bruising his ego completely?

How could my dad possibly take advice on how to better fix his relationship from his own son???? Wouldn't that be humiliating?

I don't care I just want them to be as happy as possible and if my dad embarked on a spiritual journey to become a stronger version of himself and quit failing my moms bullshit their relationship might explode into something beautifully unimaginable!

Maybe I'm just idealistic...

Thanks for any replies.

-Rob

 

[Chase]

Rob-

If I was your mom I’d have done the same thing.

She asked a valid question and got a half answer as a response.

This is how power dynamics are lost over the long-term, when the guy either doesn’t know why he wants things a certain way, can’t verbalize it properly, or is scared of out-foxed verbally and just lies about it to not expose his ‘real reason’ to logical deconstruction.

Whatever the real reason is, he probably has a valid reason (or at least, one that feels emotionally valid), but his issue is he doesn’t have any idea how to convey it and verbalize it, and he probably knows if he tries his wife will out-debate him.

What your dad really needs is debate training. If there’s a Toastmasters in your area, maybe you could get him to start going to that with you as a father-son activity and start improving his ability to verbalize things that way via stealth.

Chase

 

[ray_zorse]

In this specific interaction a similar thought occurred to me to what Chase said. But as to your question generally...

Well firstly I have been married and my marriage was basically what you describe, continual emotional outbursts and shit tests, which I would sometimes pass (just because I did not like the idea of being someone's pet dog and fiercely protectds my autonomy and my spheres of decision making), but would often fail, either by trying to fight her framr, or by losing my temper and descending to her level. So I know what you're talking about, but honestly I was nowhere near mature enough to practice responsible relationship management or to understand why it would be necessary.

I think the first "aha" moment came to me when Intervention Orders were in place and I risked going to jail if I allowed myself to be drawn into an argument with her (during the times we were forced to interact, such as changing over the children), and she complained to Police later. That's how big a kick in the pants it took to make me start taking responsibility for the things I could control about my own behaviour (and let me tell you she tried her utmost, but I remained unmoved). Before that, I just didn't believe in myself enough to believe I could control myself, I just saw it as inevitable that if she pushed my buttons I'd react.

I just fervently believed that if she would just cooperate with me and stop pushing my buttons, we could have a happy and productive marriage together. Not only was this naive (I could not understand the motivations behind her behaviour, I can now), but it was shifting the responsibility for problems onto her and making myself blameless. All in all the mindset shift achieved (1) in the process of escaping from this unhappy situation and (2) through finding GC and practicing it for a year... is so unbelievably radical that I honestly feel I could only learn it through my own hard won experience, not by being told. I can well imagine a discussion between me (today) and the old immature reactive me, and all the bullshit rationalizations and mindsets he would come out with.

Anyway, based on my attempts to help my buddy and former neighbour, with his marriage, it is hopeless. To hear him speak, his wife is the devil incarnate, yet he doesn't leave her (claims to be worried about his son's safety among other things), frankly I doubt it is that bad, more that she's been allowed to get away with too much shit for far too long. I have discussed relationship management with him quite a few times, as well as how to work the family law system to hisadvantage and "rescue" his son, if he so wishes (he's a stay at home dad, which gives him some leverage)... but he doesn't do anything, except to continue to be reactive and compliant to her. Some of the stuff he says shows how shallow and reactive his mindset really is... because of this I pulled out my smartphone on the bus last time and let him read the first chapter of "No more Mr Nice Guy"... didn't make any impression, even though he's a smart guy (an academic)... said he might buy the book later and read the rest, but I am sure he was only being polite. It's hopeless.

Lastly, the matter of abundance: using GC material one never need fear loneliness ever again. But that's a big factor for these guys. My neighbour is about my age, but takes no care lf his appearance (even though he is outdoorsy and not unfit)... he often sees me gaming the early-20s barista chicks and others in the shopping centre when we meet, and laughs/scoffs a bit about my complicated love life, yet he just makes these feeble self deprecating jokes about being a dirty old man if I suggest this might be within his powers (if I suggest to check on his appearance he says something like, I'm not interested in fashion, that's for fakers, and anyway, I cannot afford expensive clothes -- he earns about half of the family income, which is meagre, by tutoring, despite the fact he's a stay at home dad, plus he does all the cooking and housework and nearly all the grocery shopping). Anyway what I'm getting at is, fear of her leaving and him being lonely, is what makes dudes so compliant, although it's so ingrained and habitual that they (we) couldn't express it.

Hmm.

Ray

 

[Mr.Rob]

Whatever the real reason is, he probably has a valid reason (or at least, one that feels emotionally valid), but his issue is he doesn’t have any idea how to convey it and verbalize it, and he probably knows if he tries his wife will out-debate him.What your dad really needs is debate training

Thanks for reply Chase. Actually my dad has always been extremely bad with not conveying his actual reason and it makes both myself and my mom not want to follow his lead as a result.

I will definitely take note of the debate issue and that would be easy fix because I'm in toastmasters already.

However he still has a lot of beta characteristics but I guess by the age of 62 he's probably so set in his ways he probably wouldn't be willing to change anyway and would be better off thinking he's done good for the past 30 years rather than have to come to the whim he's had things a bit wrong.

or by losing my temper and descending to her level.

What my dad does.

Anyway what I'm getting at is, fear of her leaving and him being lonely, is what makes dudes so compliant, although it's so ingrained and habitual that they (we) couldn't express it.

Yeah I think this is a core issue with my dad as well. He's in such scarcity and reeks through his pores to the point I doubt that it would be possible for him to control his behavior in such a manner.

Just like you've talked to your buddy before I've broached the subject on learning a bit of female psychology as it might help improve his relationship (things such as women don't communicate on surface level topics but the emotional subtext of the conversation) but it went straight over his head and he couldn't even ask a question further he was so uniterested.

Yeah I guess I'll see if he's up for the debate idea and on top of that maybe even bring up that interaction to his attention and point out to him why mom did that and what he could do to have things go in a better way next time.

Thanks for reply's guys!

-Rob

 

[Richard]

Rob,

I did not read through this piece and instead offering advice solely from your title question, and my answer is: more than likely, no, you cannot help him.

Judging by your dad's reaction to your mom's shit test then especially no.

For one, you don't have the "credentials" so to speak to be able to offer advice to him. Regardless of how much pick-up and social skill know-how you have, he does not see it and thus will not take advice from someone he sees as lower on the totem pole. My dad is the same way and most people in general are like this; they only take advice from credible sources, and getting credibility within family settings is ridiculous.

Furthermore, your dad seems very prideful and has a need to be in control (again, same as my dad) so even if he was asking for advice, he wouldn't take it unless it was what he wanted to hear. My dad and I fight regularly (nearly every day) because of our differences in social know-how, and his inability to admit when he's wrong.

Realistically, the only way you'd be able to get your dad to change is to do so without him knowing it. If you've seen the Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi teaches Daniel the four basic blocks of Karate by having him do seemingly obvious tasks (painting a fence, sanding a deck, washing a car, etc.) and you'd have to do this same thing with your dad. I taught my sister to socialize by having her tag along with me to events, talk to people, bring her into the conversation to voice her opinion, then I'd politely leave. Eventually she started to pick up some basics.

If you're going to teach him, you'll have to Mr. Miyagi it. That way, you bypass having to need the credentials to teach him, and you bypass the bullshit involved with bruising his already fragile ego.

-Richard

 

[Rage]

To some degree I’d have to agree with Richard; I think that that unfortunate cardinal rule that you see for example when you try to bring buddies to pickup shows up here once again: you can’t truly change or massively influence decisions of others, only yourself.

Aside from that also I believe that regular people will tend to remain how they are largely and tend to be in stasis. Which might mean an average marriage, and bickering and ennui like this but can also mean that likely no drastic change such as divorce happens easily (though I might be wrong on this point because my own family is matriarchal from Bangladesh, and divorce is much more taboo; in my culture people remain woefully average but stay together a ton on average alongside that).

For one, you don't have the "credentials" so to speak to be able to offer advice to him. Regardless of how much pick-up and social skill know-how you have, he does not see it and thus will not take advice from someone he sees as lower on the totem pole. My dad is the same way and most people in general are like this; they only take advice from credible sources, and getting credibility within family settings is ridiculous.

Sources that are in their mind credible, which will likely be the news, or their buddy Jimbo, or like Dr. Phil or some dumbass TV authority like that. Not who sounds most credible but probably who caters to emotions best and who on an emotional level they trust most.

_____

In terms of what you can do, I think similar to what Richard says with yourself and what you say do how you act and talk and just are around your house can set some example and have some influence on your dad (the few months you are at home).

Ways that I’ve gotten my parents to change for the better in this way are extremely slight and few but can think of a couple: me going to the gym several days a week caused them to think “yeah we could do that find us a membership yeah?”; and I got them a 10 dollar one to this DYEL gym and now they go once a week and are in the same shape as they were before more or less. Another time I started eating healthier a few years ago and would eat brown rice and then my whole family gradually changed from white rice to brown rice.

These sound rather stupid and insignificant because that’s about the degree to which regular people change. Nothing against them either; it is much easier to be how you are then to shift to great degree to something more. Many of us on the board have some personality disorders and high testosterone levels driving us to do that and regular people don’t.

My closing theory is that for regular people to change their lives massively in one direction or another has to be spurred by something huge, and usually that will be for how it affects others in their life. I remember my family would watch the biggest loser, and the fat people who got in shape on there would talk about how they wanted to do it for their family and stop putting them through hrut (similar story with people who gave up smoking).

Myself and some other guys on this site I reckon, work towards many goals, largely out of an illogical rage and drive to do so within themselves, that sort of is largely devoid of motivation or purpose or reason or anything else (hence the term “rage to master” I guess which Chase discusses here viewtopic.php?f=45&t=9053)

Regular people might not have any of that at all; so for your scenario at home I’d say try some degree to lead by example and by what your influence unconsciously does. The father son activity Chase suggests doesn’t sound bad either, and sounds healthy and productive if you have the time and resources to spring it. But after all that, any significant change or even gradual change happens when your dad wants it to happen. You can help guide the flame and fuel it if it lights within him, but it has to be found within him first. Things likely remain largely in stasis till then (which may seem extremely miserable looking to you the observer who is massively improving your life; but to the average person, their average life isn't usually at all horrible in their own mind, just chill and ok and how things are).

-Gem

 

[Mr.Rob]

@ Richard- Thanks for replying I know you have a lot of experience in that realm of dealing with your father. Yeah I agree it is mostly a lost cause and both my mom and dad are in such "comfort" (perceived comfort) that they wouldn't have the motivation/energy to make a change that dramatic.

My credentials as you say are non existent and would be quite insulting for me to go that route.

Lol thanks for the Mr. Miyagi tip as well I think that is the best route to take.

@ Gem-

Ways that I’ve gotten my parents to change for the better in this way are extremely slight and few but can think of a couple: me going to the gym several days a week caused them to think “yeah we could do that find us a membership yeah?”; and I got them a 10 dollar one to this DYEL gym and now they go once a week and are in the same shape as they were before more or less. Another time I started eating healthier a few years ago and would eat brown rice and then my whole family gradually changed from white rice to brown rice.

That's pretty sweet how you changed your families culture like that.

Idk how exactly I could model alpha behavior and how to handle shit tests and not losing your cool in a debate and how to be congruent to what you are thinking without feeling stupid but I guess it's possible.

My mom will test me of sorts occasionally (obviously not out of attraction but out of testing masculinity) so I guess I could potentially do this.

I guess in the end it may just be best to not give my dad the red pill and just let them keep on trucking as they have been for the past 28 years. Their both comfortable enough and have accepted their relationship is the best it can get (it's not terrible by any means but your typical scarcity mindset beta male behavior though my dad has his moments to shine).

Whatever I'll model the best I can and see if he catches on if not they'll be fine.

Just a bit sad knowing they could both have a much more on point relationship if they only knew it was possible...

 

[Drck]

"My mom prodded further and further until my dad became so irritated (and still not have given a straight answer) that he threw his hands up and left the table and walked outside."

What you are describing is unfortunately too common, in this way or another... Many men become domesticated by this constant emotional pressure, shit test or whatever the label is. Sometimes the pressure may be intensive and obvious, another times it is rather mild, slow, yet persistent over years... Any normal man throws his hands up and walks away because we just can't deal with those emotional pressures....

There are not many choices:

1. Some guys leave marriage because they simply can't take it
2. Some guys will be domesticated; they shut down, become compliant with whatever the woman wants; they become happy providers
3. Other guys must constantly fight to keep the upper hand if they are not naturally dominant. They actively keep the relationship working, they may go to therapists and so on... Chances are, however, that it won't work anyway after some while. They may even be accused of abuse in some way because in the household the modern and equal woman always wants to keep the upper hand... The women may for example become 'depressed', and it is obviously the guy's fault - as she will colorfuly describe the abuse to her therapists, neighbors, friends and family... And everyone will agree with her that the husband is bad...

It is not really about logic at all, it is not about presenting great arguments. It all goes back to female's emotions, to what she FEELS like about particular issue. If she is happy, everything is fine. If she is unhappy, no logic will fix it. Many men know that, they know that they are better off keeping their wives "feeling good", so they keep backing off and backing off - until one day they wake up and they act like pussies, unable to argue or show dominant side...

I wouldn't say that it is hopeless but I definitely agree with Ray and Richard, I don't see many choices. First, the guy (your dad or any other guy in that situation) will only get helped once he decides to get help on his own. IMO there is no way you can explain him right vs wrong behavior in dating or marriage, you just can't help guys who are not actively seeking help on their own. Your dad probably feels that it is not right but overall he doesn't see many wrong things in this because he is used to it for years. Second, after many years of the relationship, the women simply has upper hand and it would take lots of efforts, lots of battles to shift the power... Third, does those battles and changes even worth it? He might be just happier this way anyway, after so many years...


Anyhowk, that's why it is so important to setup the dominant frame right from the beginning of the relationship. Then anytime she tries shit test like that, the guy needs to let her know that he is willing to walk away from her with a good laughter, and within 30 seconds. Drop her on the spot. Or he could be much nicer and argue with her, put himself at the same level, but again - why bother at first place and build some great relationships with only one pussy - if there are lots of other pussies out there...??


Man, I could tell stories, if somebody thinks that my comments are long he just doesn't even have a clue yet...

 

[Big Daddy]

I was searching for threads that mentioned tests because I was looking for some insight on them, so pardon me to get a tangent on this thread:

Let's say he had a reason that was emotionally valid for him, but not for anyone else so he realized that there is no point in saying it if he's going to look like a fool... so I ask, knowing how to verbalize it would still be helpful in this particular situation? If not, what would be a great way to out frame Rob's mom?

 

[mb1]

I took a risk on this and for the first time ever brought something up to my Dad. We've never once talked sex but he emailed saying he was ready, but my mom wouldn't let him stop sorting things and call me for another half an hour. I told him no problem and just left a screenshot from Franco's book (same Franco right?). I'd seen the book Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus on my parents' bookshelf as a kid. The screenshot says it does a good job explaining how men can subcommunicate with females but does not enforce men must uphold their masculinity or risk losing sexual attraction in her eyes. He wrote back "Got it" and was definitely responding differently to her while we were all on the phone.

Maybe try printing off just a few articles you believe would be most relevant to him, and include the post from Chase?

 

[Franco]

I told him no problem and just left a screenshot from Franco's book (same Franco right?).

If you're referring to me, then no, that's a different Franco. =)

- Franco