Can women (older or younger) be held accountable? How to respond when they play the victim? (Will & Jada Smith Ex)

[Chase]

The underlining question is: is it okay for man to get irritated , annoyed, anger at girl or this would show “ beta” behavior and too much invested from the male side ?

Well, if you're going to break up with her, it doesn't really matter at that point.

Unless of course you are going to take her back later like your name's Will Smith.

I personally in situations where women have done breakup-able offenses tend to stay calm, understanding, though standoffish/cold as I end things with them. Just as a personal choice, I think it is always worthwhile to understand things from another person's perspective, and to show her empathy, even if she is not going to get any further affection/etc. from me at that point, because that part is just finished.

A lot of that is just temperament though. Some people are hot-tempered and I don't know if you can realistically stay stone cold in a betrayal situation if you're a hot-head. You might just need to blow up a bit... and I think that is fine. It is a betrayal, after all.

Chase

 

[jesslee09]

@jbl09,



If it's at work, get it on video if you can, get your coworkers to agree that they saw it and write a quick statement, then take it to HR. If HR won't back you up, go to the level of management above HR. If you're still not getting anywhere, get a labor lawyer. Or, if you don't want to deal with all that, change jobs (preferably to somewhere with less feisty female colleagues). The woman behaves the way she behaves because she thinks the system will back her up -- the key to combating someone who is leveraging the system against you is to either leverage it back better, or leave.

If it's your own woman, if you know she cheated, give her the boot. Or deal with it however you need to deal with it... I know some guys don't have infidelity as a total deal breaker, so if not, then demand whatever concessions you require of her to call it even. Tell her she owes you four FMF threesomes over the next three months to keep the relationship, or what have you.

If she is crying, lying, complaining, but you know it is bullshit, dismiss it, grill her, tell her you know it's bullshit, get her to admit it is -- do whatever you've got to do to satisfy yourself.

Some women will never admit you caught them in a lie. Some honestly don't believe they are lying. Many will put all kinds of spin on things even if they admit they didn't tell you the whole truth. You are not going to always (or even often) be able to get a woman to deal with you with male levels of honesty/objective truth. But you do need to be able to interrogate the truth out of people, if you want certainty instead of just to hang around in doubt.

e.g.,

Her: I went over to John's place and he raped me!​

​

You: [immediately skeptical] Why were you over at his place?​

​

Her: It was for work! Our boss said we had to work on the project together!​

​

You: He did? Do you have a message from your boss I can see?​

​

Her: No. He said it when we were at work.​

​

You: All right, I'm going to talk to your boss later. How did this rape happen?​

​

Her: We were blah blah blah and then he said we should sit on the couch, so I said okay. Then blah blah and he started kissing me and I told him no and blah blah and then he blah blah and then he raped me!​

​

You: Did he bruise you? How did you fight back? Let me see your injuries.​

​

Her: I didn't fight back! I was afraid he'd hurt me!​

​

You: How did he enter you? I've tried to shag girlfriends a hundred times when they were unwilling and never got it in after hours of trying.​

​

Her: You think I'm lying?! blah blah!​

​

You: I'll talk to your boss tomorrow, but this smells like bullshit to me.​

​

Her: Fine. John got me really drunk and blah blah but it was still rape!​

​

You: Yeah, I didn't think it was rape.​

​

Her: He did not have my consent!​

​

You: Get out of here with that nonsense. I've been drunk a million times. Never once have I done something I didn't WANT to do. Nor has anyone ever forced me to drink. You're full of it.​

​

Her: [SOB!]​

​

You: Get out. Go back to his place.​

​

Her: [SOB!]​

You need to already be in a certain mental place to interrogate a 'victimized' woman like this.

The first is that you do not 'believe all women', but rather make quick judgments based upon your read of a situation.

If a woman steps into my apartment with a black eye and a bloody lip and her clothes slashed and torn and says she was raped, I'll be inclined to believe her from the start (but I will still interrogate her -- albeit gentler than in the example above).

If, however, she comes in looking all nice and pretty and fine, with no bruises, then starts pulling out a sob story about how her nice colleague whom she has mentioned several times and whom I suspect she has a crush on 'raped' her, it's going to smell very fishy to me.

If you want to avoid a full interrogation of the woman, you can also just tell her to give you the man's contact info, because you want to talk to him and get his side of the story. If it's a false accusation, she is going to panic over this, because she doesn't want you and him comparing notes on what she's saying. The whole ruse breaks down if the distrust between the opposing males is broken down and communication lines open up. You should also be trying to talk to her boss, her friend, any other involved parties that were aware of some aspect of the situation to get their side of how things went down. Again, the more defensive she is of not letting you talk to these people, the more suspicious you should be. A woman who was genuinely assaulted will be shell shocked, and should be willing to go along with whatever her defender proposes to do.

It's not a smoking gun if she is resistant to you talking to people, but it should raise your suspicions further.

No one is going to hold your woman to account if you don't.

The rape example is an extreme one, but every man ought to be able to interrogate women for truth on issues where the truth is important to him.

Chase

Thanks Chase. I knew that was the right solution. I know I'm asking a lot but I had one more clarifying question.

I guess my biggest problem was that I've had girls who 'falsely accused' me of something who were part of my social circle. The thing with being in a social circle was that, if it wasn't a social circle I was leading, I noticed most of the times, men in general would come to aid this girl who's playing the 'damsel in distress' even if she was clearly in the wrong and take her side. It's infuriating to me when this happens.I also had a friend who was cheated on by his long time girlfriend. But when he confronted her, she basically played victim and started saying HE was the one who was weak and made her cheat and putting statuses on facebook to act like she was the victim. Of course I saw the bullshit, but I noticed a lot of these faggot ass men came to her rescue and backed her up which eventually led to the circle being 'disbanded'.

Another might be that a girl would be screaming at a guy in public, and he would start screaming back, and the men all of the sudden come in to get this stranger's girls' back to 'earn some points' with the girl.

How should you deal with people who come to 'rescue' her?

 

[Chase]

Girls with certain personality disorders (like borderline personality disorder) will work to turn your social circle against you if/when the relationship fails. People with BPD and other manipulators are extremely socially adroit and unless you've dealt with a manipulator before or the victim is also a high skill communicator the manipulator is going to tend to win that frame battle and turn many/most of your friends against you.

I've seen it happen with multiple people. It clearly sucks, a lot. I don't think there's a lot most guys can realistically do against it, other than move on and build new social circles (possibly with whichever friends stuck by them from the old circle).

If you've got some communication skill though, you need to be getting people one-on-one and saying, "Look, I know Jenny is spreading rumors and painting herself as the victim here. Let me tell you what actually happened. Here are the texts and everything to back up my story. Here are the photos. It is not the way she's portraying it. She's lying." I have seen instances where the victim speaks to all the interested parties the manipulator is trying to 'flip', gets the truth to them, and all but a few flip back against the manipulator and she is left high and dry, with only a few turned souls to stay with her.

But when he confronted her, she basically played victim and started saying HE was the one who was weak and made her cheat and putting statuses on facebook to act like she was the victim. Of course I saw the bullshit, but I noticed a lot of these faggot ass men came to her rescue and backed her up which eventually led to the circle being 'disbanded'.

Well, I mean, a guy goes into a long-distance relationship... she probably has a point there about him being weak.

And if he didn't start out that way, LDRs sure have a tendency of drawing the weakness out of people.

Even still, definitely rubbing some salt in his wounds.

It also very much sounds like she was struggling desperately to maintain her personal image and external reputation of "not a slimy cheater" by shifting all the blame to her.

I've been off social media a decade, and never had to deal with a woman publicly complaining about me and white knights rushing to her defense.

But I have seen a lot of these "Such-and-such was saying XYZ whiny bullshit on her page. So I've posted my response in the comment section, and it surprised a lot of people, and caused her to lose most of her followers." That tells me most people are still basically normal, and if you give them the other side of the story, and it sounds a lot more legit than the whiny B.S. she has been feeding them, at least some of them are going to say, "Wait, hold up a second here."

Months of whining and victim mentality can be popped by a single concise, damning paragraph dropped by the real aggrieved party.

Another might be that a girl would be screaming at a guy in public, and he would start screaming back, and the men all of the sudden come in to get this stranger's girls' back to 'earn some points' with the girl.

How should you deal with people who come to 'rescue' her?

Why would you scream at a woman in public? Must be a temperament thing.

I had a woman yell at me in public once. To me, this is something inexcusable. My response was to give her a death glare and tell her in the most arctic voice I'm capable of, "No one yells at me in public. We're done." I didn't try to address what she was yelling about, nor did I care, because the fact that she felt the need to air our dirty laundry in public superseded all that. I then hailed a cab and left her at the curb. She called a few minutes later, apologizing and asking me to forgive her; I had the cab go back and pick her up, but before I let her into the cab I told her, "If you ever do that to me again, we'll be finished, and I will not take you back, no matter how sorry you are." I made her acknowledge it, then let her in. (and, if we're being totally honest, sometime much later on this same girlfriend yelled at me in public a second time, and I did not dump her on the spot -- instead I got very cross again and told her, same frigid that she'd better not dare yell at me in public; I don't care what she's yelling about, she is not to raise her voice to me in public, and she calmed herself)

Not having dealt with your scenario, I can only speculate (if other guys have actually dealt with this, I'll let them weigh in here too).

However, an intervening guy would probably get a death glare from me, a single policeman hand up in his space, and me saying, "Excuse me bro," and probably about 6-10 seconds of silent stare-down before going back to the woman.

You're not trying to engage with these other guys. However, if they are breaking into your circle you've got to address them. You want to do that in a way that lets them know they are not welcome, that they are potentially walking into a fight situation, and that it is not their business either way.

From what I have seen of these types of situations, usually the woman does not really want other guys getting involved, and if another guy beats up her man she will be angry at the intervening male and may try to get the police to arrest him / press charges on him (the white knight hero, not her man). So I'd guess the most likely outcome is after you tell the guy "excuse me" the woman will calm down enough to go off somewhere with you, or at least take her drama down a notch. She may turn her anger on the interventionist (I haven't been party to this, but I have seen it -- guys walking into a fight between a couple to try to 'save' the woman ending up having the woman turn on them more violently than the man does).

Again, not a situation I have exactly dealt with, so I'd defer to any guys who've actually gone through this scenario.

Chase

 

[jesslee09]

Girls with certain personality disorders (like borderline personality disorder) will work to turn your social circle against you if/when the relationship fails. People with BPD and other manipulators are extremely socially adroit and unless you've dealt with a manipulator before or the victim is also a high skill communicator the manipulator is going to tend to win that frame battle and turn many/most of your friends against you.

I've seen it happen with multiple people. It clearly sucks, a lot. I don't think there's a lot most guys can realistically do against it, other than move on and build new social circles (possibly with whichever friends stuck by them from the old circle).

If you've got some communication skill though, you need to be getting people one-on-one and saying, "Look, I know Jenny is spreading rumors and painting herself as the victim here. Let me tell you what actually happened. Here are the texts and everything to back up my story. Here are the photos. It is not the way she's portraying it. She's lying." I have seen instances where the victim speaks to all the interested parties the manipulator is trying to 'flip', gets the truth to them, and all but a few flip back against the manipulator and she is left high and dry, with only a few turned souls to stay with her.



Well, I mean, a guy goes into a long-distance relationship... she probably has a point there about him being weak.

And if he didn't start out that way, LDRs sure have a tendency of drawing the weakness out of people.

Even still, definitely rubbing some salt in his wounds.

It also very much sounds like she was struggling desperately to maintain her personal image and external reputation of "not a slimy cheater" by shifting all the blame to her.

I've been off social media a decade, and never had to deal with a woman publicly complaining about me and white knights rushing to her defense.

But I have seen a lot of these "Such-and-such was saying XYZ whiny bullshit on her page. So I've posted my response in the comment section, and it surprised a lot of people, and caused her to lose most of her followers." That tells me most people are still basically normal, and if you give them the other side of the story, and it sounds a lot more legit than the whiny B.S. she has been feeding them, at least some of them are going to say, "Wait, hold up a second here."

Months of whining and victim mentality can be popped by a single concise, damning paragraph dropped by the real aggrieved party.



Why would you scream at a woman in public? Must be a temperament thing.

I had a woman yell at me in public once. To me, this is something inexcusable. My response was to give her a death glare and tell her in the most arctic voice I'm capable of, "No one yells at me in public. We're done." I didn't try to address what she was yelling about, nor did I care, because the fact that she felt the need to air our dirty laundry in public superseded all that. I then hailed a cab and left her at the curb. She called a few minutes later, apologizing and asking me to forgive her; I had the cab go back and pick her up, but before I let her into the cab I told her, "If you ever do that to me again, we'll be finished, and I will not take you back, no matter how sorry you are." I made her acknowledge it, then let her in. (and, if we're being totally honest, sometime much later on this same girlfriend yelled at me in public a second time, and I did not dump her on the spot -- instead I got very cross again and told her, same frigid that she'd better not dare yell at me in public; I don't care what she's yelling about, she is not to raise her voice to me in public, and she calmed herself)

Not having dealt with your scenario, I can only speculate (if other guys have actually dealt with this, I'll let them weigh in here too).

However, an intervening guy would probably get a death glare from me, a single policeman hand up in his space, and me saying, "Excuse me bro," and probably about 6-10 seconds of silent stare-down before going back to the woman.

You're not trying to engage with these other guys. However, if they are breaking into your circle you've got to address them. You want to do that in a way that lets them know they are not welcome, that they are potentially walking into a fight situation, and that it is not their business either way.

From what I have seen of these types of situations, usually the woman does not really want other guys getting involved, and if another guy beats up her man she will be angry at the intervening male and may try to get the police to arrest him / press charges on him (the white knight hero, not her man). So I'd guess the most likely outcome is after you tell the guy "excuse me" the woman will calm down enough to go off somewhere with you, or at least take her drama down a notch. She may turn her anger on the interventionist (I haven't been party to this, but I have seen it -- guys walking into a fight between a couple to try to 'save' the woman ending up having the woman turn on them more violently than the man does).

Again, not a situation I have exactly dealt with, so I'd defer to any guys who've actually gone through this scenario.

Chase

Chase Thanks alot. It seems like it comes down to my insecurities about physical violence that's causing me to be scared about 'other men' coming into the set. Sometimes capability of violence is needed.

And I had no idea about just 'putting out your side of the story'. I just assumed a lot of the people would dismiss you. But then if they did, would they really be people you want around?

Thanks for the input!

 

[Chase]

Chase Thanks alot. It seems like it comes down to my insecurities about physical violence that's causing me to be scared about 'other men' coming into the set. Sometimes capability of violence is needed.

A lot of guys have this fear. I used to have this fear.

Self-defense classes are really good at helping alleviate these fears. Put 100 hours into a practical self-defense class (like Krav Maga, Wing Chun, or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu), mixed with a little weight training or calisthenics, and they will not trouble you anymore.

And I had no idea about just 'putting out your side of the story'. I just assumed a lot of the people would dismiss you. But then if they did, would they really be people you want around?

Thanks for the input!

Yeah, it's super important.

Any time you are getting character assassinated, you need to be talking to people and getting your story out there.

Even if they're more sympathetic to your attacker, it is a lot harder for them to dehumanize you once they know there is another side to what they're being told.

Chase