Can you make yourself feel more attracted to someone?

[Vision]

This is just a brainstorming post for anyone who might be interested in the idea.

Part of my practice is helping women choose better men.

Many of these women normally just go for guys they're the most attracted to, which almost always ends with unfavorable results.

To help them pick better men, I have them sensitize themselves to chemistry, meaning I have them stop spending time around guys they're super attracted to so that they can become aware of their attraction to other men they normally wouldn't go for because the attraction isn't quite as strong for these other men...

And then I have them build their own attraction to these men through appreciation (raising the man's value in their own eyes) of the man and by stepping into their feminine and pushing the man towards his masculine.

This definitely works to a degree.

I'm looking to come up with other ideas that might work as well.

I know we have some smart people in here who really understand attraction.

Do you have any thoughts on helping someone create more attraction towards a person or how this might be better achieved?

Cheers!

- V

 

[topcat]

Interesting idea for sure.

I’m sure it can be done, though how effectively and permanently, I’m sceptical.

Attraction is to a large extent relative and environment dependent.

Think, the most attractive girl in the office, isn’t necessarily the most attractive woman you’ve ever met, or even may know outside of work. If your choices are limited to women in the office and she is available to you, she’ll be your top choice, but widen the playing field to include all potential women available to you and she may not place so high up on your attractiveness ranking..

Let’s add to that the fact that what one is attracted to is largely biologically determined or at least set by deep early experiences, and rooted in the unconscious. I’m not sure how far one a lay person can go in overwriting this this programming without deep hypnotism or something.

It seems in essence what you are doing is having a woman consciously limit the scope of her attractiveness rankings, to exclude those at the highest end of her attraction, so guys lower ranked now become more attractive relatively speaking.

I can see this working in so far as more attractive guys no longer exist in her environment (and signal some degree of attainability) or she maintains the willpower to ignore her innate attraction. And that her lees attractive partner, that she’s managed to mindfuck herself into being hot for remains at his current level of attractiveness or even increases it.

But as we know attraction tends to decline in relationships, more often than not, and given this happens in the case of her relatively mediocre partner, she begins to look again for a more attractive partner at which point she’ll seek the best she can get and cast aside the “attraction blinders” she’s created as they’ll only serve to hinder her and require quite the effort to maintain.

In short what i’m saying is you face a steep battle getting a chick to actively go for less attractive men against her innate biological and emotional programming, in the presence of more attractive and potentially attainable men.

Good luck.

I’m curious to hear what your results are/have been with this and any discoveries you’ve made.

 

[Will_V]

I can't see it being permanently possible for anyone to stick with the vegetables rather than the steak - unless the act of doing so is radically more meaningful than the taste.

In this day and age I don't think it's possible, on average, for a man or woman to choose a good partner and stay with them unless they have a deep ideological conviction in the value of that deed. The social environment is so inconducive to it that you end up basically on a two-person mission against the world, and when inevitably you have doubts that the other person cannot immediately allay, you are pretty much on your own as to your 'why'.

I haven't seen evidence that the human mind can be permanently 'hacked' by perceptive maneuvers or behavioral routines. We live in a time when there is so much information on how to set up the ideal life and yet people seem to be weaker and more fragile than ever, more prone to worry and anxiety, and struggling ever more with motivation and self control. For example every woman I meet seems to have 'tried' meditation, and is unequivocal about its benefits during our conversations, and yet it is no more a part of their lives than some temple up in the mountains of India. Because everything primes them to expect pleasure and easiness (at least as an ideal), and when it is not like that, neither the feedback coming from their environment, nor their own stores of motivation, are strong enough to bear them through a week of it, let alone a lifetime.

And this is because they do not have a 'why'. They do not have a concept of an idealized self that includes eating the 'vegetables' of life - such a concept is already hijacked by marketing and media who don't talk about vegetables at all, and there is no strong enough symbol to compete with it and reflect to her a different idea of who she could, and should, be. As a man it is difficult - and perhaps foolhardy - to try to be that symbol, yet there isn't really much of a better choice.

And if you are enough to be a symbol that competes for a woman's concept of her idealized self - well then you are no longer vegetables but steak.

 

[Vision]

Interesting idea for sure.

I’m sure it can be done, though how effectively and permanently, I’m sceptical.

Attraction is to a large extent relative and environment dependent.

Think, the most attractive girl in the office, isn’t necessarily the most attractive woman you’ve ever met, or even may know outside of work. If your choices are limited to women in the office and she is available to you, she’ll be your top choice, but widen the playing field to include all potential women available to you and she may not place so high up on your attractiveness ranking..

Great comparison and that's exactly what I'm talking about here.

Let’s add to that the fact that what one is attracted to is largely biologically determined or at least set by deep early experiences, and rooted in the unconscious. I’m not sure how far one a lay person can go in overwriting this this programming without deep hypnotism or something.

We can do whatever... deep hypnotism is certainly a method we can utilize, along with just about anything else. The possibilities are only limited to our minds and what we can create.

If you have any thoughts on different methods that might help or work here, I'd love to hear it.

It seems in essence what you are doing is having a woman consciously limit the scope of her attractiveness rankings, to exclude those at the highest end of her attraction, so guys lower ranked now become more attractive relatively speaking.

Exactly. And then we help her build that attraction she has.

I can see this working in so far as more attractive guys no longer exist in her environment (and signal some degree of attainability) or she maintains the willpower to ignore her innate attraction. And that her lees attractive partner, that she’s managed to mindfuck herself into being hot for remains at his current level of attractiveness or even increases it.

Or she's able to start feeling more attracted to him. Attraction is known to grow over time, especially with women, with the right types of guys.

It can obviously go the opposite way as well.

Lots of women actually date and end up in relationships with men who they aren't even attracted to... just because they know the men they're most attracted to are the wrong men.

We often get women who show up in our program after divorcing a man they were never in love with (at least that's their claim).

There's even an article just published in Psychology Today talking about this "new trend" of people going for someone who isn't their "type" and they're calling it "Open Casting"...

The Dating Trend of 'Open Casting' Can Revive Your Love Life

Here’s why the trend of dating outside your "type" is catching on in a big way.

www.psychologytoday.com

Even guys like Chase talk about approaching less attractive women to end up with hotter girls (or something like that, if anyone knows the link to the article).

This idea of going for someone who is less attractive to end up with someone better has definitely been around for awhile.

But as we know attraction tends to decline in relationships, more often than not, and given this happens in the case of her relatively mediocre partner, she begins to look again for a more attractive partner at which point she’ll seek the best she can get and cast aside the “attraction blinders” she’s created as they’ll only serve to hinder her and require quite the effort to maintain.

In short what i’m saying is you face a steep battle getting a chick to actively go for less attractive men against her innate biological and emotional programming, in the presence of more attractive and potentially attainable men.

Possibly, that's why I'm looking deeper into this.

What I've found is that we all live in patterns... the patterns we get into dictate our life.

If she's in a pattern of staying with a more stable partner because that's safer than going for a guy she's super attracted to, she'll continue to go for and often stay with more stable partners.

Also, there are plenty of ways to impact attractiveness for both people.

I'm in Germany right now and one of the girls I'm hooking up with here is a feminist who was clearly in her masculine energy when I first met her. Being masculine myself, she's been dropping more and more into a feminine role and energy as time goes on, making her more attracted to me and me more attracted to her (probably some other bonding things affecting this too).

Women can often drop into their feminine and men will step up into their masculine as a result and vice versa, which is the best way (that I've seen) to maintain attraction long term.

It's definitely rare to keep it long term but it does exist.

Good luck.

I’m curious to hear what your results are/have been with this and any discoveries you’ve made.

Thanks, it's something we've based a huge part of my practice on and it's come with really good results, for the women who are willing to do it. We've had some women end up with great guys and end up feeling a lot more attracted to them over time doing this.

The lure of attraction is difficult though... and breaking patterns can be very difficult as well, which is why I'm looking deeper into this so we can get it to work for more women, more often, and for as long as possible.

I can't see it being permanently possible for anyone to stick with the vegetables rather than the steak - unless the act of doing so is radically more meaningful than the taste.

In this day and age I don't think it's possible, on average, for a man or woman to choose a good partner and stay with them unless they have a deep ideological conviction in the value of that deed. The social environment is so inconducive to it that you end up basically on a two-person mission against the world, and when inevitably you have doubts that the other person cannot immediately allay, you are pretty much on your own as to your 'why'.

Yeah, you may need a community and deep rooted philosophical reasoning to do so, for sure...

Kids are definitely a reason a lot of people do this but that only lasts for so long.

Some people do stay together for fear of getting back into our really fucked up dating scene that we have today, just because the devil they know is better than the devil they don't know.

I haven't seen evidence that the human mind can be permanently 'hacked' by perceptive maneuvers or behavioral routines. We live in a time when there is so much information on how to set up the ideal life and yet people seem to be weaker and more fragile than ever, more prone to worry and anxiety, and struggling ever more with motivation and self control. For example every woman I meet seems to have 'tried' meditation, and is unequivocal about its benefits during our conversations, and yet it is no more a part of their lives than some temple up in the mountains of India. Because everything primes them to expect pleasure and easiness (at least as an ideal), and when it is not like that, neither the feedback coming from their environment, nor their own stores of motivation, are strong enough to bear them through a week of it, let alone a lifetime.

We're definitely in a world of children who don't need to grow up or dedicate themselves to anything. And our culture certainly perpetuates this.

And this is because they do not have a 'why'. They do not have a concept of an idealized self that includes eating the 'vegetables' of life - such a concept is already hijacked by marketing and media who don't talk about vegetables at all, and there is no strong enough symbol to compete with it and reflect to her a different idea of who she could, and should, be. As a man it is difficult - and perhaps foolhardy - to try to be that symbol, yet there isn't really much of a better choice.

And if you are enough to be a symbol that competes for a woman's concept of her idealized self - well then you are no longer vegetables but steak.

As we know from the book, Change or Die... when given the choice to change your behaviors when faced with death, 90% of people would rather die than change their habits.

But 10% of people will change and those are the people I want to work with and 10% is still a huge portion of the population of women.

Cut it down and it becomes smaller but this isn't the only problem women have when dating, so it's not that big of a deal (I'm just reassuring myself now).

Anyway, thanks for responding.

 

[TomInHo]

When you say her being in her feminine and the man in his masculine what does that really mean? Never understood those terms

 

[Vision]

When you say her being in her feminine and the man in his masculine what does that really mean? Never understood those terms

Feminine is traditionally female characteristics and masculine are traditionally male characteristics.

From what I've seen, the overwhelming majority of women are feminine at their core and the overwhelming majority of men are masculine at their core.

I could teach a masterclass on this but masculine can best be described as hard, strong, or leadership. Feminine can be best described as soft, flowing, and receiving (I know those aren't exact opposites). If I used one word to describe masculine, I'd use strong. And one to describe feminine, I'd use soft.

Are your actions, behaviors, voice, movements, colors, etc. strong or are they soft? This is a reflection of the energy that's going on within you (I know that sounds esoteric).

We all have both feminine and masculine energies and the more we go to an extreme in one, the more attractive we become to people who are the other.

So if you're a man and you're strong, stoic, and you lead strongly, most women will soften up, follow, and become more light and flowing.

If you're a woman and you're around a man and you become soft, gentle, and emotive, most men will step into their masculine.

The reason most women are more in their masculine these days (which they are) is because they don't feel safe. Women become masculine when they don't feel the protection of a strong masculine presence which is there to protect and provide for them.

And if they've been hurt a lot in their past through rape, abuse, neglect, abandonment, etc... they may stay in their masculine no matter who is around them and try to control their external environment in order to create the feeling of safety around themselves.

The most attractive men (from what I've seen) are ones who have a strong masculine core but who can be feminine inside of that masculine core. Not sure if that makes sense.

I created an infographic a long time ago describing the polarities, if that might help.

 

[Will_V]

Yeah, you may need a community and deep rooted philosophical reasoning to do so, for sure...

Kids are definitely a reason a lot of people do this but that only lasts for so long.

Some people do stay together for fear of getting back into our really fucked up dating scene that we have today, just because the devil they know is better than the devil they don't know.



We're definitely in a world of children who don't need to grow up or dedicate themselves to anything. And our culture certainly perpetuates this.



As we know from the book, Change or Die... when given the choice to change your behaviors when faced with death, 90% of people would rather die than change their habits.

But 10% of people will change and those are the people I want to work with and 10% is still a huge portion of the population of women.

Cut it down and it becomes smaller but this isn't the only problem women have when dating, so it's not that big of a deal (I'm just reassuring myself now).

Anyway, thanks for responding.

I don't want to sound too pessimistic so I want to add a couple things.

First I think everyone feels a very strong need for a 'why', perhaps more than anything else in their lives. In fact all the pseudo-philosophies and pseudo-activities of the self help industry are basically an attempt to brute force override this innate mechanism that lies at the heart of everything that people do. But despite all the media and marketing behind the modern impractical ideal of a life, human perception, that powerful engine of pattern recognition, is always at work, and deep down there are always some vestiges of knowledge about how reality really works.

That means that people will be drawn to compelling reasons and practical ideologies of how to live a good, happy, stable life. How long they stay there is more difficult to control, but well-designed information and messages are one brick in the wall of a house that may never be finished, but can at least be started.

What you said about the 10% is very much to the point, because that's the way it's always been. The idea of saving everyone is an illusion, in reality only those people who have a head start, whether driven by their own motivations or the way they have been shaped, can begin to be saved. This is the way nature has always been.

And at the end of the day in my opinion there is nothing more noble than fighting to improve the culture and the lives of the people who live in our world, whether it's by having a large platform such as you do, or influencing the people who live in your immediate vicinity. That's why I came to these boards really, to participate in some small way to improve the functionality and undo the false realities of men's lives when it comes to women.

I like to read about the great men of the past, the ones who built and guided huge empires and civilizations through difficult times. And I'm always struck by how these men, in spite of all their capabilities, were always surrounded by deceit and chaos that eventually overcame them and what they had built. And I think, if they had to face that, and accept the unjustness of operating on those terms, how much more should any ordinary man who dares to try and improve his own society be prepared to deal with?

 

[Vision]

I don't want to sound too pessimistic so I want to add a couple things.

First I think everyone feels a very strong need for a 'why', perhaps more than anything else in their lives. In fact all the pseudo-philosophies and pseudo-activities of the self help industry are basically an attempt to brute force override this innate mechanism that lies at the heart of everything that people do.

Or they're trying to cultivate it, utilize it, direct it, etc.

But despite all the media and marketing behind the modern impractical ideal of a life, human perception, that powerful engine of pattern recognition, is always at work, and deep down there are always some vestiges of knowledge about how reality really works.

That means that people will be drawn to compelling reasons and practical ideologies of how to live a good, happy, stable life. How long they stay there is more difficult to control, but well-designed information and messages are one brick in the wall of a house that may never be finished, but can at least be started.

What you said about the 10% is very much to the point, because that's the way it's always been. The idea of saving everyone is an illusion, in reality only those people who have a head start, whether driven by their own motivations or the way they have been shaped, can begin to be saved. This is the way nature has always been.

Sure, I thought you were trying not to sound pessimistic here though, lol.

And at the end of the day in my opinion there is nothing more noble than fighting to improve the culture and the lives of the people who live in our world, whether it's by having a large platform such as you do, or influencing the people who live in your immediate vicinity. That's why I came to these boards really, to participate in some small way to improve the functionality and undo the false realities of men's lives when it comes to women.

Cool, thanks. I agree. Even if the wheel will keep turning and, ultimately, we have little to no real say in what actually happens next, I at least like to play my part and feel like I'm doing something valuable with society, otherwise I'll spiral into a nihilistic depression of not caring about anything where I need to drink my pain away.

I prefer to just help where I can and pretend like I can actually help determine the direction we're all going to go next, it helps me sleep at night.

I like to read about the great men of the past, the ones who built and guided huge empires and civilizations through difficult times. And I'm always struck by how these men, in spite of all their capabilities, were always surrounded by deceit and chaos that eventually overcame them and what they had built. And I think, if they had to face that, and accept the unjustness of operating on those terms, how much more should any ordinary man who dares to try and improve his own society be prepared to deal with?

Ultimately, the pendulum swings, there are much bigger forces at play than any of us... I mean, even with all of the technology and information at our fingertips to live great lives, lose weight, have great relationships... seminars, workshops, great speakers (like Tony Robbins), etc. that are out there, everything moves in whatever direction it's going to move and we have to play inside of that, ultimately just helping the people who would be successful anyway and maybe picking a person off the ground here or there, if only temporarily.

If the wheel must destroy in order to build anew, it must and will destroy despite everyone's say... which is one of the reasons there's so much nihilism and pessimistic thought patterns running through our culture and society right now as opposed to excited ones. I'd rather focus on what we can do and help the people we can than get overrun by nihilistic inevitability, if for no other reason, my own sanity and feelings of optimism that I have control over.

 

[TestY]

Part of my practice is helping women choose better men.

Many of these women normally just go for guys they're the most attracted to, which almost always ends with unfavorable results.
...
Do you have any thoughts on helping someone create more attraction towards a person or how this might be better achieved?

Some ideas:
1. Have them shift from the typical liberal view of sex and life, and towards something else that puts more value on stability and family. For example a female version of Art of Manliness's article series on family culture.
2. Have them join communities that focus on family culture, for example a congregation.
3. Use the ExRedPill literature to craft useful approaches to dating. Some examples:

• Critique of hypergamy
• Attachment theory mitigating hypergamy

4. Working strategically with perception. @Karea Ricardus D. has recommended Captain Jack's dating courses. In his "The Full Power Opening Course" he uses some insights from Tony Robbins to write the following:

 

[Will_V]

Cool, thanks. I agree. Even if the wheel will keep turning and, ultimately, we have little to no real say in what actually happens next, I at least like to play my part and feel like I'm doing something valuable with society, otherwise I'll spiral into a nihilistic depression of not caring about anything where I need to drink my pain away.

Completely agree with this, in my mind to live your own ideal life and strive to build up the people around you is more than enough meaning for a lifetime. And there are always the inevitable successes, big and small, that will be treasured.

I am a stoic by nature - I don't believe it's my job to judge reality, only to choose the best actions within the scope of my existence, and to be at peace with the results.

I hope I don't sound pessimistic, because I'm really not. Despite the difficulties of this life I actually can't think of a better and more satisfying experience anyone could have.

 

[Chase]

@Vision,

I’ve made myself attracted to classes of women or specific women intentionally before. I’ve also deliberately un-attracted myself to at least one girl (probably others I can’t recall now). So it’s definitely possible, or at least I can do it myself.

I did it with a couple of cheerleaders in junior high. I liked this dumb blonde cheerleader but the brunette head cheerleader had a huge crush on me. I started saying to myself how stupid it was that I liked the dumb blonde, when the brunette was hotter, smarter, cooler, funnier, the clear leader of the two, plus the head cheerleader and most popular girl in school, AND she had this huge crush on me. Why didn’t I like HER instead of that dumb blonde? After two weeks of saying this to myself, one morning at school in the midst of telling myself this I suddenly realized, “Whoa — all of a sudden, I DO like her!” I went on to have this massive infatuation with her… we both asked each other out multiple times but never went out. I confessed love to her years later over email (heard nothing back, lol — it was a low point). We both ended up marrying people who looked almost identical to one another.

In late high school I got into rap and decided I wanted to like black girls. I spent two weeks watching rap music videos and commenting to myself all these good things about black girls’ attractiveness, and two weeks in I suddenly liked black girls now. Did the same thing with Asians years later after these Asian girls kept chasing me and I was like, “I don’t like Asian girls. But I should. Maybe I can add them to my attraction diet too?”

Later on I had a chick I was in this off-and-on messy relationship with. It was a young-me relationship and intense but I’d broken it irreparably. She hooked up with other guys when we weren’t together, which I read about in her journal after we started back up again. My emotions were running wild trying to keep me with her, and I wanted to deprogram from that, so for a few weeks I forced myself to visualize the hookups I read about her having in her journal while telling myself all these undesirable traits of hers, and by the end of it my emotions toward her cooled off a lot.

Based on my experience, the process seems to be:

1. Pick someone you think you SHOULD like a lot more (or dislike).
   
   
2. Start talking to yourself about how it is crazy you don’t like this person more than you do.
   
   
3. Start listing out all these various attractive qualities this person has that you SHOULD be more attracted to.
   
   
4. It’s important these are qualities you GENUINELY appreciate — not stuff that is not your taste that you are trying to force yourself to like. Should be all truly attractive stuff to you that for whatever reason still isn’t floating your boat yet for this person.
   
   
5. Keep doing that for at least 15 minutes a day for two weeks while looking at or visualizing the person you’re doing this with.
   
   
6. At some point, you are suddenly going to realize, “Hey wait a minute — I DO really like this person!” You need to just keep going with reprogramming yourself until you have that epiphany though. If you haven’t had it yet, just keep going, aiming to talk yourself into it by focusing on good things about this person that attract you.
   
   
7. Once the attraction is there, or in the case of that relationship of mine once it is lost, it is in my experience permanent. I talked myself into liking a girl and went on to be infatuated with her for 8 years and ended up marrying a chick who looked just like her! Further, every girl I’ve liked a lot since her has been brunette. I was 100% into blondes before I talked myself into that girl. After talking myself into liking black and Asian girls I never lost attraction for them. After talking myself out of being so into that girl I was seeing, I was never really able to feel the same kind of attraction for her again — not without some nagging doubts and weird feelings in my head.

So, you can totally reprogram yourself, or at least I can.

The effect is lasting.

It’s a bit like inception though, really… the idea comes to define you to some extent.

Be careful what you program yourself into being/liking/desiring, I suppose!

Chase

 

[TestY]

@Vision,
...
Based on my experience, the process seems to be:

1. Pick someone you think you SHOULD like a lot more (or dislike).
   
   
2. Start talking to yourself about how it is crazy you don’t like this person more than you do.
   
   
3. Start listing out all these various attractive qualities this person has that you SHOULD be more attracted to.
   
   
4. It’s important these are qualities you GENUINELY appreciate — not stuff that is not your taste that you are trying to force yourself to like. Should be all truly attractive stuff to you that for whatever reason still isn’t floating your boat yet for this person.
   
   
5. Keep doing that for at least 15 minutes a day for two weeks while looking at or visualizing the person you’re doing this with.
   
   
6. At some point, you are suddenly going to realize, “Hey wait a minute — I DO really like this person!” You need to just keep going with reprogramming yourself until you have that epiphany though. If you haven’t had it yet, just keep going, aiming to talk yourself into it by focusing on good things about this person that attract you.
   
   
7. Once the attraction is there, or in the case of that relationship of mine once it is lost, it is in my experience permanent. I talked myself into liking a girl and went on to be infatuated with her for 8 years and ended up marrying a chick who looked just like her! Further, every girl I’ve liked a lot since her has been brunette. I was 100% into blondes before I talked myself into that girl. After talking myself into liking black and Asian girls I never lost attraction for them. After talking myself out of being so into that girl I was seeing, I was never really able to feel the same kind of attraction for her again — not without some nagging doubts and weird feelings in my head.

So, you can totally reprogram yourself, or at least I can.

The effect is lasting.

It’s a bit like inception though, really… the idea comes to define you to some extent.

Be careful what you program yourself into being/liking/desiring, I suppose!

Chase

@Chase Great stuff. Have you tried this with yourself as the object? I believe this can help guys with low self-esteem "fall in love" with and respect themselves as well...

 

[Chase]

@TestY,

@Chase Great stuff. Have you tried this with yourself as the object? I believe this can help guys with low self-esteem "fall in love" with and respect themselves as well...

Yes, I will say things like that to myself from time to time: "I'm a pretty awesome dude, aren't I? I've got X, Y, Z going on... I've done A, B, C. Look at all these sweet advantages I have. I'm kind of the man, aren't I?"

I do it mostly if I'm feeling a little low, worn out, overly stressed, etc.

It works. You get some perspective, and whatever you were worrying about that was feeling like the end of the world is sort of like... back to just being a speed bump.

I guess that's technically an affirmation. But it seems to me how most people use affirmations is to try to affirm a vision of themselves that is aspirational, rather than actual. This style of affirmation by contrast is you calling attention to stuff that already exists and is actually the way things are right now, refocusing on the positive aspects.

At least to me, it's much more powerful, since it's not "I hope to be" or "I will be" but "I actually am right now, this moment; just look around!"

Chase

 

[DarkKnight]

Yes, I will say things like that to myself from time to time: "I'm a pretty awesome dude, aren't I? I've got X, Y, Z going on... I've done A, B, C. Look at all these sweet advantages I have. I'm kind of the man, aren't I?"

I do this as well... usually when I am a bit too focused on one specific girl and I sense I am starting to sell myself short. This tends to be my default allong with immediately game new girls

 

[TestY]

@TestY,

Yes, I will say things like that to myself from time to time: "I'm a pretty awesome dude, aren't I? I've got X, Y, Z going on... I've done A, B, C. Look at all these sweet advantages I have. I'm kind of the man, aren't I?"

I do it mostly if I'm feeling a little low, worn out, overly stressed, etc.

It works. You get some perspective, and whatever you were worrying about that was feeling like the end of the world is sort of like... back to just being a speed bump.

I guess that's technically an affirmation. But it seems to me how most people use affirmations is to try to affirm a vision of themselves that is aspirational, rather than actual. This style of affirmation by contrast is you calling attention to stuff that already exists and is actually the way things are right now, refocusing on the positive aspects.

At least to me, it's much more powerful, since it's not "I hope to be" or "I will be" but "I actually am right now, this moment; just look around!"

Chase

Cool. Yes, I agree that the approach of looking for "legs" for our beliefs, rather than going all out on the idealistic route feels more grounded, solid and real. That's one benefit NLP'er Steve Andreas' "Transforming yourself" has over Maxwell Maltz' "Psycho Cybernetics". Or similarly, an advantage that the solution-focused "What's right with you" has over the Hypno-CBT approach of auto-suggestion. And of course your recommendation of Positive psychology/"Learned Optimism" over the "Law of Attraction".

Cheers

 

[Chase]

@Vision,

I just browsed SoSuave (bad habit ) and found this post by a woman talking about the difference between "good-looking nice guys" vs. men with solid frames:

There's a chasm of difference in reactions to the two, difficult to put into words but I'll try, Mr Good Looking nice guy who you can probably push around - you can like him, get on with him, your brain tells you this is the kind of man you should have, treats you like an equal, wouldn't do anything "disrespectful" in the bedroom. You can go with the first flush of passion for sex side and then after tell yourself that you should try harder to be in the mood because he's a nice guy, treats you well, is what society says you should want but it's hard to get turned on and more mechanical
Mr You Obviously Can't Walk All Over me, without having to do anything on your part that has a massive sexual reaction, blood flushing to the p***y, you have a loss of strength and feel a lot weaker, get a little breathless and it's a heady feeling.

In this case she is actually trying to do what I'm talking about here (talking herself into being more attracted) but just can't muster the same primal attraction that a solid dude can muster in her.

So, I don't know what would happen if a woman legitimately tried that in a focused way for a couple of weeks straight. But if the main problem the women in your community are having is they're just with guys who aren't strong enough to trigger that primal attraction in them, it might also be that's an attraction issue you just can't reprogram yourself around.

One other thing I have seen work for women is environmental changes -- e.g., if she's around a bunch of women dating Chads, and her man isn't a Chad, she's going to feel worse that her man is not a Chad, due to social comparison. But if she starts hanging around a bunch of women dating some other type of man, and stops hanging out with the women dating Chads, and her man has some obvious advantages over these new guys, she can start to feel prouder of him, etc. Can't say for sure if pride in her man will fix the underlying attraction issue however... you'd think it would help... The gist is you just get her to adjust her environment to one where her guy looks sexy compared to the other options she is seeing/hearing about, and she begins viewing him in a much sexier light.

Chase

 

[Vision]

Some ideas:
1. Have them shift from the typical liberal view of sex and life, and towards something else that puts more value on stability and family. For example a female version of Art of Manliness's article series on family culture.

I think there's plenty of Christian things that do this kind of stuff... I'm on the dating side of things though, pre-family.

Maybe get them watching family stuff, dreaming of being a housewife?

Lol

There are a lot of challenges around this and I don't know what the solution would be...

Or how it would look for women or how it would be appealing to them in the modern culture and climate.

They either need to be protected and safe or they need to be strong... there's not much in way of western culture that keeps women safe under men anymore.

Too many men have used, abused, raped, and destroyed women's feelings of safety with men, generally speaking. Men are weak and don't create the safety net that women need to thrive in femininity anymore so it's a difficult situation on both sides.

Not sure what this would look like, tbh... or how it might appeal to the modern woman.

2. Have them join communities that focus on family culture, for example a congregation.

Tell them to be religious?

I'd do that if I was religious.

Since I'm not and I don't particularly like religion, I need to find something else that's maybe spiritually based or maybe create something like that.

There's got to be a middle ground somewhere, but I'm sure that's not as established or well known.

Or maybe it is and I just don't know about it.

3. Use the ExRedPill literature to craft useful approaches to dating. Some examples:

• Critique of hypergamy
• Attachment theory mitigating hypergamy

4. Working strategically with perception. @Karea Ricardus D. has recommended Captain Jack's dating courses. In his "The Full Power Opening Course" he uses some insights from Tony Robbins to write the following:

Thanks!

@Vision,

I’ve made myself attracted to classes of women or specific women intentionally before. I’ve also deliberately un-attracted myself to at least one girl (probably others I can’t recall now). So it’s definitely possible, or at least I can do it myself.

I did it with a couple of cheerleaders in junior high. I liked this dumb blonde cheerleader but the brunette head cheerleader had a huge crush on me. I started saying to myself how stupid it was that I liked the dumb blonde, when the brunette was hotter, smarter, cooler, funnier, the clear leader of the two, plus the head cheerleader and most popular girl in school, AND she had this huge crush on me. Why didn’t I like HER instead of that dumb blonde? After two weeks of saying this to myself, one morning at school in the midst of telling myself this I suddenly realized, “Whoa — all of a sudden, I DO like her!” I went on to have this massive infatuation with her… we both asked each other out multiple times but never went out. I confessed love to her years later over email (heard nothing back, lol — it was a low point). We both ended up marrying people who looked almost identical to one another.

Yeah, it's building her value in your own mind.

In late high school I got into rap and decided I wanted to like black girls. I spent two weeks watching rap music videos and commenting to myself all these good things about black girls’ attractiveness, and two weeks in I suddenly liked black girls now. Did the same thing with Asians years later after these Asian girls kept chasing me and I was like, “I don’t like Asian girls. But I should. Maybe I can add them to my attraction diet too?”

Later on I had a chick I was in this off-and-on messy relationship with. It was a young-me relationship and intense but I’d broken it irreparably. She hooked up with other guys when we weren’t together, which I read about in her journal after we started back up again. My emotions were running wild trying to keep me with her, and I wanted to deprogram from that, so for a few weeks I forced myself to visualize the hookups I read about her having in her journal while telling myself all these undesirable traits of hers, and by the end of it my emotions toward her cooled off a lot.

Based on my experience, the process seems to be:

1. Pick someone you think you SHOULD like a lot more (or dislike).
   
   
2. Start talking to yourself about how it is crazy you don’t like this person more than you do.
   
   
3. Start listing out all these various attractive qualities this person has that you SHOULD be more attracted to.
   
   
4. It’s important these are qualities you GENUINELY appreciate — not stuff that is not your taste that you are trying to force yourself to like. Should be all truly attractive stuff to you that for whatever reason still isn’t floating your boat yet for this person.
   
   
5. Keep doing that for at least 15 minutes a day for two weeks while looking at or visualizing the person you’re doing this with.
   
   
6. At some point, you are suddenly going to realize, “Hey wait a minute — I DO really like this person!” You need to just keep going with reprogramming yourself until you have that epiphany though. If you haven’t had it yet, just keep going, aiming to talk yourself into it by focusing on good things about this person that attract you.
   
   
7. Once the attraction is there, or in the case of that relationship of mine once it is lost, it is in my experience permanent. I talked myself into liking a girl and went on to be infatuated with her for 8 years and ended up marrying a chick who looked just like her! Further, every girl I’ve liked a lot since her has been brunette. I was 100% into blondes before I talked myself into that girl. After talking myself into liking black and Asian girls I never lost attraction for them. After talking myself out of being so into that girl I was seeing, I was never really able to feel the same kind of attraction for her again — not without some nagging doubts and weird feelings in my head.

So, you can totally reprogram yourself, or at least I can.

The effect is lasting.

It’s a bit like inception though, really… the idea comes to define you to some extent.

Be careful what you program yourself into being/liking/desiring, I suppose!

Chase

Yeah, you're talking about building someone's value and then associating them to that value.

That's similar to what I'm talking about too... and our culture definitely does this to us all the time.

@Vision,

I just browsed SoSuave (bad habit ) and found this post by a woman talking about the difference between "good-looking nice guys" vs. men with solid frames:



In this case she is actually trying to do what I'm talking about here (talking herself into being more attracted) but just can't muster the same primal attraction that a solid dude can muster in her.

That's because she's just trying to talk herself into it.

Tony Robbins has this idea he calls your "Emotional Home"...

People who live in hurricane areas have their homes flooded and destroyed every few years but just keep going back and building their houses there over and over again.

Why don't they just move somewhere else? Because that area is their home... they've lived there their whole lives... their friends are there... their memories are there... they just keep going back there.

And unless they feel their home is somewhere else, they'll just keep going back there.

Same with emotions... most people have a few emotions they experience on a daily or weekly basis and they keep going back to those emotions because those emotions are their home.

Same with who you attract or end up in relationships with... when I was a PUA back in the day, I was in a lot of toxic situations... I grew up in a toxic environment... toxic was my home for relationships for a long time.

It wasn't until I decided I was done with toxic and that I wanted something else that I got into a healthy relationship. And then healthy relationship became my home and now I get out of most toxic situations relatively quickly because I have a lot more negative associations with toxic relationships than I have positive associations.

So I think that girl's problem is that she's just trying to talk herself into something instead of making healthy her home... instead of creating enough negative associations to the thing she craves but is toxic that she won't go back and enough positive associations to something she wants until it becomes so familiar that it's her home now.

In my practice, I tell women, you don't attract what you want, you attract what's most familiar.

If toxic, abandonment, abuse, and neglect are most familiar, that's where you'll keep going back to... if healthy is most familiar, that's where you'll go back to as well.

And if you want to change what you attract, change what's most familiar.

So, I don't know what would happen if a woman legitimately tried that in a focused way for a couple of weeks straight. But if the main problem the women in your community are having is they're just with guys who aren't strong enough to trigger that primal attraction in them, it might also be that's an attraction issue you just can't reprogram yourself around.

I don't think that's really the problem. I think that girl did a half-assed attempt because she didn't really want it... there's a part of her that enjoys the highs and lows of shitty situations, unavailable men, the fantasy that things will be different this time, and dopamine that she gets from the occasional wins she has with him... she hasn't hit a threshold where she's really willing to do something different, she must do something different.

One other thing I have seen work for women is environmental changes -- e.g., if she's around a bunch of women dating Chads, and her man isn't a Chad, she's going to feel worse that her man is not a Chad, due to social comparison. But if she starts hanging around a bunch of women dating some other type of man, and stops hanging out with the women dating Chads, and her man has some obvious advantages over these new guys, she can start to feel prouder of him, etc. Can't say for sure if pride in her man will fix the underlying attraction issue however... you'd think it would help... The gist is you just get her to adjust her environment to one where her guy looks sexy compared to the other options she is seeing/hearing about, and she begins viewing him in a much sexier light.

Chase

Yeah, there's almost certainly a bunch of things holding her back... and she's almost certainly not doing enough to actually have something different.

 

[TestY]

Tell them to be religious?

I'd do that if I was religious.

Since I'm not and I don't particularly like religion, I need to find something else that's maybe spiritually based or maybe create something like that.

There's got to be a middle ground somewhere, but I'm sure that's not as established or well known.

Or maybe it is and I just don't know about it.

One potential lead would be to google female alternatives to the "Art of Manliness" - "Art of Womanliness", "Revisiting femininity", etc. This blog seems to attempt to tackle the question:

In my quests for discovering quality sites to suit my own interests, I have been lucky to discover a handful which - in my opinion - offer viable alternatives to The Art of Manliness for women.
...
Alison Solove of Experimental Wifery posted some wonderful suggestions in the comments section for more sites we can add to this list: [Links partly Archived]

• Verily Magazine
• Elegant Woman
• The Good Women Project
• The New Noblewoman

Alternatively, one could perhaps try to look for some middle-ground books here.

 

[TomInHo]

Hmmm this is very interesting. Well I can give you some input from my side

I have only been in one monogamous relationship my entire life and the rest were casual/open and I noticed a trend. The women will try hard to get me to commit but it never really works out but a lot of the time the next guy they get with tends to be a lot "nicer"

But I have also had those same women come back to me after trying things with the other guy and they complain how he was boring, too stiff, too rigid, too logical. Which I find very ironic @Vision because those are the very traits you call masculine. Which makes me think there's a lot more to it than just masculine and feminine energy

I have learned that a lot of women are attracted to chaos and not necessarily stability when it comes to pure sexual attraction.

It's all over the place. But eventually though with enough time with me they do tend to find a guy that is solid enough and I never hear from them again, well until they break up

Also I noticed that the men they picked did something very opposite of me too. Like if I didn't have time to see them, they will find a guy that's available 24/7. If I was too much of a sexual deviant they will find a guy with a lower drive. If didn't shower them with gifts and compliments they would find a dude that was very giving

I think women ain't stupid and they tend to overcorrect if the guy they're attracted to isn't giving them what they want. I guess they just need to go through enough pain before they are ready to have a mental shift and "settle"

Late Edit
Also, when I think about it. I never settled down with any of those women because they lacked game. They didn't really give me a compelling reason to commit to them beyond sex. I mean you can get that anywhere

And there was another girl that I almost committed to but things didn't work out because she got deported from my country. And she showed up consistently and invested in ways that were unique to the other girls I was seeing. But when I talked to her more about her family life she shared with me how her mom taught her how to be "a lady". So maybe the real problem here is that these women nowadays are not as seductive as they think

 

[Vision]

One potential lead would be to google female alternatives to the "Art of Manliness" - "Art of Womanliness", "Revisiting femininity", etc. This blog seems to attempt to tackle the question:


Alternatively, one could perhaps try to look for some middle-ground books here.

Interesting ideas, I'll take a look when I have some time.

Hmmm this is very interesting. Well I can give you some input from my side

I have only been in one monogamous relationship my entire life and the rest were casual/open and I noticed a trend. The women will try hard to get me to commit but it never really works out but a lot of the time the next guy they get with tends to be a lot "nicer"

Well, going for the wild, non-committal person who is fucking everyone is almost always a losing battle for anyone wanting something real.

But I have also had those same women come back to me after trying things with the other guy and they complain how he was boring, too stiff, too rigid, too logical. Which I find very ironic @Vision because those are the very traits you call masculine. Which makes me think there's a lot more to it than just masculine and feminine energy

Lol, boring is masculine huh? I don't remember putting that one on the chart.

Everyone has both masculine and feminine energy... masculine and feminine energy isn't defined by those traits... those traits are symptoms of the energies.

Also, of course there's a lot more to it than that. Push/pull isn't masculine or feminine and it's addictive to both men and women, regardless of your orientation or energy.

I have learned that a lot of women are attracted to chaos and not necessarily stability when it comes to pure sexual attraction.

Men are attracted to chaos too when it comes to pure sexual attraction. If that's all you care about, we might be having two different conversations here.

It's all over the place. But eventually though with enough time with me they do tend to find a guy that is solid enough and I never hear from them again, well until they break up

Also I noticed that the men they picked did something very opposite of me too. Like if I didn't have time to see them, they will find a guy that's available 24/7. If I was too much of a sexual deviant they will find a guy with a lower drive. If didn't shower them with gifts and compliments they would find a dude that was very giving

Going for extremes is a losing strategy... the sexual deviant and the low sex drive are two extremes that won't keep anyone satisfied long term, the magic is in the middle with most things in life, including having a partner.

I think women ain't stupid and they tend to overcorrect if the guy they're attracted to isn't giving them what they want. I guess they just need to go through enough pain before they are ready to have a mental shift and "settle"

Overcorrecting is pretty stupid... or maybe it's just ignorant.

If they find a strong, masculine man who treats them well, it's not settling, it's winning.

Unfortunately, most men are soft and feminine these days, or they're on extremes so women don't have great choices for good long term partners, for the most part, as far as I can see.

Late Edit
Also, when I think about it. I never settled down with any of those women because they lacked game. They didn't really give me a compelling reason to commit to them beyond sex. I mean you can get that anywhere

If you're not looking to settle into a relationship then you're not a good long-term partner for any of them anyway.

They're better off finding a good guy with an edge who doesn't want to play the field than trying to convince a player to settle down.

And there was another girl that I almost committed to but things didn't work out because she got deported from my country. And she showed up consistently and invested in ways that were unique to the other girls I was seeing. But when I talked to her more about her family life she shared with me how her mom taught her how to be "a lady". So maybe the real problem here is that these women nowadays are not as seductive as they think

I'm not sure what would make you a good long term partner for these women but I generally don't consider most guys in the seduction community when I think about guys who would be good for these women to be with.

I think if you're in the community for a short time to become a good partner for these women, it's probably fine. I know we all develop big egos as part of being in this community and that works for picking up girls... I think most of us are probably bad bets for these women though, in terms of trying to get with us or trying to convince us to commit to them... it's just a losing situation for them, usually.

Unless you're in it to meet a great girl and leave, you probably have some things going on with you that wouldn't make you a good partner for them to be with.