confusion about independent women

[fog]

Yeah, im a bit confused about independent women…

Couple weeks ago, I was chatting with a younger girl who said, in passing, something about how things are heading more towards girls being independent.

Then I was doing some research on Gen Z, and what I found is that they have a different approach to sex and relationships than previous generations….like, they don’t prioritize relationships, aren’t too committed, and are even having less sex apparently. Which sounds like these gals lean more independent.

I wasn’t sure if this trend was just displayed by Gen Z or if theres a larger trend around this impacting all girls in general....

so i gotta ask...what’s going on with this? Is there a big movement/culture shift happening around independence, and where is it headed? What's happening in their minds and why.... how does it impact her social frame, and what does it mean for us seducers?

cc: @Teevster

 

[Fuck This]

What is true independence?

To me it starts with Financial independence. Without that you cannot be truly independent.

As a kid you depend on your parents financially.
As a college student you depend on the government loans and grants, and a shittly little job or 2.
As a recent graduate, or new business , you depend on your job and later bank loans and mortgages.


So women claiming to be "independent" makes me laugh. Show me a woman who is independently wealthy (by whatever means) and she might be in the start of truly being independent. Everything else is a mind game. Goes for Men too for that matter

People are too wrapped up in their image of themselves in their minds that they glean from popular culture to truly be independent. They think arguing with someone makes them independent. It doesn't.

So praise her for being independent, but know that is a point of pride, and you can use that as a way of manipulation...often they will go against a status quo just to be different (but it doesn't make them independant. ) Frame your requests so the right answers seem to be doing what YOU want.

 

[Egor]

The women in my field are far and away financially independent- with advanced college degrees- and then their bosses find out about their onlyfans; so they leave and make a mill a month. That sir is independently wealthy.

 

[Teevster]

I have not reflected much upon this question, since I do not consider it that relevant to pick up and seduction. Sorry, I cannot be of much help. But I know there has been tons of research within the field of sociology on this matter.

Only a few things I would keep in mind is that in general, the more wealthy or economically independent a girl is, the more likely she is looking for

- A lover rather than a provider - although she may still look for provider traits when she wants to establishing something serious.
- A guy who displays sexual frames and focuses on stimulating her, since her ASD is likely to be lower than a girl who is less independent economically

And the more gender equality there is, the more:
- Promiscuous women become
- And the more selective they become when looking for men based on lover traits over provider traits.


But there are other variables at play... such as: men/women ratio in a society, religion, culture, climate and so on - making macro-sociology in general kind of practically useless in field . That said, it is a very interesting subject, and there is plenty of research out there on this exact subject.

Yet I do not consider this that key in field, since even if you do find yourself in a city or country that scores high on wealth and gender equality, you may still very likely bump into a girl who is an outlier... hence will not follow the norm, or may do so at an insignificant degree. Or she does follow the norm and is independent (i.e. is not an outlier) but then some other variable kick in.... and there you will be back at square one.

There only 2 rules in seduction and that is calibrate to the the girl and the immediate context. Everything else is irrelevant.

Sociological observations are interesting, yes, but a big majority of them are totally useless for the field.

--

Also, You asked some random young girl what she thinks about this and that... which most likely led to biased responses. It is trendy to claim that one is being independent independent, but at the end of the day, we know they are not really independent.

You are making the fatal mistake of taking what a (as in 1) girl says at face value. She can say anything about everything - it does not make it true.

Of course modern girls will claim:
- That they are independent
- A selective with who they fuck
- Are not having much sex...
- And if very young... will claim she does not want a relationship (ask her again in 5 years).

AGAIN do not take what they say at face value - even psychologists, sociologists and anthropologists knows that such responses are biased and will have different means to counter that... but I am not going to discuss how to run qualitative researches here, as there are plenty of better resources out there that covers this subject.

But for pick up remember what Ross Jeffries once said (or something alone the line of): "I do not care what she says or think, I care only about how she feels and responds (to my moves)".

That's it.

and are even having less sex apparently

Whoever conducted this research is a retard because women always BS about sex when being asked - even in research settings. I have not noticed that women from Gen Z are less willing to have sex than Gen X or Y... - nor do I consider Gen Z to be any more "independent" than Gen Y....

Best,
Teevster

 

[DonGately]

My personal experience is that Gen Z and the tail end of Gen Y are significantly more likely to be open about sex, to talk about it with guys, have watched rough and bondage porn, 3/4/10-ways porn, and be curious about trying everything they have seen at least once. One of my pet theories is we're seeing a return of the young woman/older man dynamic to a larger extent not because of wealth but because of their search for a dominant, older, sexually experienced male who doesn't judge [and isn't in their social circle]. I've literally lost track of the <24 yr old girls who have told me guys their age are too vanilla and don't know how to fuck, and of course, mostly act like idiots. Of course, NAWALT, but the # of girls who are willing to fuck a guy twice their age they just met would astonish you.

I asked the last girl I picked up if I could piss on her after sex, she was 150% willing to try it as long as she was naked and I don't mean with the shower running. You think that girl is meeting guys that can show they can fulfill her needs? And she's a comp sci major, surrounded by 85% men all day, not all of whom are skinny, pimpled losers, plus all the other guys on campus and in the city.

Most guys who struggle on dating apps are probably on the wrong end of that dynamic. If you're on a college campus you definitely shouldn't need Tinder.

Sure, I'm an N=1, but my N is a few dozen hot girls ages 19-24 the past few years. I can't prove that Gen Z is having more sex than Gen Y, it sure feels like it, but definitely way more than Gen X was.
And they are for sure more independent in the way they think about it, ask for it, talk about it with their friends and lovers, meet guys for sex from all the social & dating platforms, and have a wide-open sexual curiosity: anal, bondage, impact play, electro-stim, wax, every kind of vibrator and dildo and plug, spreader-bars, watching porn, taking photos, you name it.

 

[Derek da man]

the # of girls who are willing to fuck a guy twice their age they just met would astonish you.

It surprised me a few years ago - now I know I just enjoy the fact that so many are looking for an older man.

 

[DonGately]

I used to think there was a hardcore base of 20%+ college girls that wanted an older guy -whether for experience or taboo reasons doesn't matter. Now I think it's more like 40-50%. Of course, you still gotta close 'em, their older guy fetish may be: aging guitar player look, or silver-haired late 40s bespoke suiting, or older ex-athlete starting to get the Dad bod wearing sweats for a jog in the park. Open to older men doesn't mean open to all of them.

At this point, any girl 18-25 who is looking at me I assume is interested, period. You need to confidence and tight inner game to approach but by the time you walk over there I promise you she has already imagined what you would be like in bed, and whether you'd even be interested in her. As long as you can ramble through a short convo you're halfway home, if it's daygame calibrate for getting the #, kiss, insta-date, SDL and go from there. This one 20yr I took to a french bistro and before our dishes arrived she told me she couldn't wait to get on her knees and blow me. She eventually married a guy 20 years older after I broke it off with her.

If you can get them back to your pad or a hotel room, 90% of them want rough sex. At least that %. Yes, 'rough' is a range, but I've never yet met a girl not into light choking and spanking who will gag on your cock. Plus the verbal degradation and humiliation some of these coeds go in for...I've taken photos of smiling girls literally holding up signs that said 'dumb slut,' or 'worthless cunt' with their face and tits and cunt visible and it got them so wet. Although they have to be able to trust you keep that smut private.

 

[Egor]

If you can get them back to your pad or a hotel room, 90% of them want rough sex. At least that %. Yes, 'rough' is a range, but I've never yet met a girl not into light choking and spanking who will gag on your cock. Plus the verbal degradation and humiliation some of these coeds go in for...I've taken photos of smiling girls literally holding up signs that said 'dumb slut,' or 'worthless cunt' with their face and tits and cunt visible and it got them so wet. Although they have to be able to trust you keep that smut private.

Pop culture is porn culture now, not surprised by your field findings.

 

[Derek da man]

or silver-haired late 40s bespoke suiting

I haven't got the silver hair - yet, and not usually a suit, actually 51 but smart casual dress is usually my style with good grooming. Also a quality aftershave as it provides her an easy opener when you stand next to her at the bar or a opportunity to compliment me during a conversation. She knows an experienced man will only need a single investment to realize she is interested and won't have to keep throwing signals as she would with younger less experienced men.

 

[Will_V]

Independence for women is like virginity, it's something to be given away when the right man comes along.

 

[POB]

To me it starts with Financial independence. Without that you cannot be truly independent.

Bingo!
They are all "independent"...as long as there is someone providing for them.

 

[Will_V]

Then I was doing some research on Gen Z, and what I found is that they have a different approach to sex and relationships than previous generations….like, they don’t prioritize relationships, aren’t too committed, and are even having less sex apparently. Which sounds like these gals lean more independent.

One other thing, all of these sound like leaning toward independence, but in fact a lot of it is the opposite. Many more people these days are living in their parents house well into their 20s (and sometimes 30s), never really growing up, and sort of 'opting out' of normal social and sexual life. This results in trading both independence and sex/relationships away for a sense of security. It's a developmental pathology really, but that doesn't stop various sources of information from trying to frame it as something positive.

 

[DonGately]

Pop culture is porn culture now, not surprised by your field findings.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'm also not totally sure I agree. Being taken roughly by a stranger, and group sex have been the #1/2 female fantasies since forever. Story of O was written in the early 1950s, I'm pretty sure Anne Desclos wasn't the only woman who ever felt that way. The Victorians were writing about spanking.

I've also been with girls from repressed cultures where porn wasn't available/available only to rich men and they certainly wanted rough sex as well.

One theory might be that most women are submissive [true] and part of the submission they crave is the dominant man to physically dominate in non-sexual/fetish ways like spanking/flogging, choking, humiliations, collaring, bondage, water sports, etc. Doesn't have to be every encounter, but enough that they know they can submit to you and get their most fervent wish - amazing orgasms.

Even just mastering a woman by telling her to get on her knees and crawl for you, not porn-oriented but clearly an act of submission esp when they've never been told they must do that before.

Obviously, some women watch a ton of porn. No argument there.