Crucial moment after 4 dates. Looking for advice on how to continue!

[Tinderthrowawa]

First of all, I'd like to thank all the writers who contribute to the articles and the forums, as it has opened my world to dating, relationship dynamics, and how I conduct myself. This website has helped me so much. This story starts a couple of weeks ago. I met this great girl on Tinder, and we hit it off, leading to a first date 2 days later. It was very casual; we just grabbed coffee, and then walked around and talked for a few hours. Surprisingly, we had a lot in common and both had a great time. So, I asked her out on a second date and she enthusiastically agreed. We had dinner and she came over to hang out to my place (I still hadn't kissed her at this point, which I know I will get feedback about in this thread, but I am still having trouble with the transition). Again, we have a great time on our second date and I set up a third date a week later.

I tell myself that I have to go in for the kiss on this date, no questions asked. At this point, I had a pretty good idea that she liked me, since her texts were always warm (although sometimes infrequent, with up to half a day of radio silence) and she was enthusiastic to go on more dates. So on the third date, I had her come over again to my place, and finally went in for the kiss, which she received happily. She also had brought me a gift, which was really sweet and a very good sign. She asked me if I was free in a few days to visit her in her neighborhood on the next date, and I told her I'd like that but that I'd have to check how much work I had to finish first (I finished it and had my day free). Now I don't have a car, so I rented one to go to see her for the day. She was very sweet and took me all around. We talked a lot throughout the date. The only time there was a lull was during dinner when I think both of us were a bit tired and so there were a couple of silences, but it picked up again afterward. She told me she was only on Tinder for a week and met with 3 guys, and deleted it shortly after we went on several dates. Notably, she didn't want her friends to know we met on Tinder, because she thinks it's a trashy way to meet people (not sure if this has anything to do with what happens in the next paragraph). We then headed back to her place and I made out with her before leaving.

Now here's the part of the story where things become a little less rosy. I'd like to start by saying my goal is to start a relationship with this girl. She's sweet, hot, and smart. She's more on the shy / quiet side, and has had 3 boyfriends in the past that lasted 1+ year (and many others that were interested). She understands that relationships are all new experiences to test out what one like / dislikes, and is comfortable with the fact that many relationships may not work before settling down. Now, after I came back, we continued texting (for what it's worth, she texted me first the day after our last date to ask about my drive back). But as we talked, her replies started getting less and less frequent. I worked to match her frequency. She recognized her slow responses and apologized at one point, giving an excuse about having a lot of errands to run. Despite this, her recent replies have taken a full day or more. Now this would be a red flag, but she has messaged me saying "I told my friends that I'm seeing you", which does show investment.

We aren't seeing each other until at least 2 weeks later, so I want to ask, how should I go about this to maintain her interest? And if it appears that she's losing interest, what can I do to try and re-ignite it (without being able to meet her)? Is she playing games to test me and how should I stop this behavior? Is it auto-rejection since I am also not replying as much? Or is it just nothing and I should just let things continue as they are? I would appreciate any and all help on how to approach this, as I think this is a crucial moment that will either make or break what happens next. I really want to make this work. Thank you so much! (sorry about the long post, I really wanted to get the details so you guys had a good idea or our dynamic)

 

[ray_zorse]

Well I would cut out the texting because it's setting a negative investment precedent... i.e. if you don't text her then she can't make you wait a day for a response... and in general the texts you send should be ones that invite a response, don't text something like "okay, talk later then" because a busy man doesn't do that.

You need to get a bit more comfortable with silence, you mentioned that the conversation dropped a few times during dinner and this is no bad thing. It puts pressure on her to continue things. You can just take the opportunity to add a bit of strong eye contact and that sort of thing and she'll soon invest more.

In a similar vein if you aren't seeing her for 2 weeks it's fine to not text in that time. It would be different if she was a cold approach and you'd only spoken 5 minutes and she was in danger of forgetting you, in that case maybe check in with her every 4 or 5 days to keep her warm, in your case I'd say there's no need.

The other thing to keep in mind is that even if you're purposely boyfriend-zoning yourself, you will have much better chances if you put yourself in the lover category. And this means fucking her ASAP, no beating around the bush, cos the longer you tolerate the lovey-dovey no sex situation the more normal it gets.

You're right, you fucked up by not escalating on her within 10 minutes of getting her back to your place, if you already met her for coffee or whatnot, and then she came to your place she was down to fuck. So you probably disappointed her a bit. To solve this problem in the future I would recommend the following:
- Sexual flirting... She says something innocent like "it's very bright in here" and you respond "mmm... I know what you get up to in a darkened room!" etc.
- The "drinks kiss"... make her a drink when you get in the door. Sit you both on the couch. Talk for a few mins. Then put your drink down. Take her drink from her hand and put that down as well. (This is a dominant move and will also have her wondering what is afoot). Then pull her in and kiss her.
- The "manhandle kiss"... if you ramped up the sexual tension during the date with sexual flirting and eye contact, then just grab her as soon as you get in the door, push her against the wall and kiss her. Or do the same in the lift or the stairwell or the parking garage or anywhere with a little privacy. Bang you're in.

Even more critically you fucked up by making out with her and not going for the pussy, this is harder to recover from, although I suppose you set a gentleman frame, which some girls like, but some girls hate, it really depends on the girl. The problem is that now she thinks, that you think, that women who make out on first date, or fuck on second date, are easy... therefore she'll now have to be coy and resist your advances to keep your/her respect, so prepare for a tough time.

Check the articles on dominance and compliance building, cos it would be helpful to build some compliance before going for that pussy and getting the LMR.

Lastly, after 4 dates you're over-invested and no doubt you're thinking about her a lot, so you'll probably be too needy to smash through the LMR in a casual way (you need to act like you don't really care, but this is hard when you do). So prepare for a disappointment. There's millions of girls on Tinder... talk to them

-Ray

 

[Tinderthrowawa]

Thanks Ray, I really appreciate your advice. For texting, I've pretty much just matched her in frequency and length. The last text I sent her did invite a response, but she hasn't gotten back to me for 2 days now. What I'm confused about is that just a few days prior, she was very warm, asking about my day, and even said "I told my friends I'm seeing you". The only thing I don't want is for both of us to be playing games and end up hurting an otherwise positive vibe between us.

Having read through some things on this website, I think she is either:
a) suddenly uninterested because of something that just happened (I wouldn't be able to come up with a reason since nothing much has changed)
b) she's gone into auto-rejection because I've been pretty sparse with my replies too and seem very busy
c) she's playing games to see what I do

Which do you think is most likely at this point and how would you go about approaching each of these scenarios in my situation? I know I've already messed up by moving too slow physically but she did seem to like me a lot. Again, I'd be grateful for your advice

 

[ray_zorse]

No, I'd say missed escalation window, I wasn't there so I cannot say with absolute certainty, but my read is that at the crucial moment when she was throwing herself at you you failed to capitalize, thus (unintentionally) communicating that you think she's a slut for throwing herself at you, and making her feel like a slut as a result. She hates you now. Nothing kills attraction like a missed window. They continue to act like nothing happened, while continually throwing up roadblocks im your path. Happened to me many times mate. Chalk it up and move on.
-Ray

 

[Tinderthrowawa]

Ray, thank you so much again. Damn.. I guess I need to learn to move faster. But at this point, is there anything I can do or say via text to warm her up for a date so I have a chance to crush through on that day and re-spike the attraction? This is a good lesson learned, but I'd like to see if there is potential with a low-effort text to get this back on track. Would really appreciate your help

 

[ray_zorse]

I don't really think there is anything to be done... try to put yourself in her shoes, suppose there was a hot and attractive girl who you thought might be a bit out of your league but you screwed up the courage, your heart was in your mouth and you asked her out... and she gave you a disgusted look and said "I don't just fuck guys that I randomly meet"... you'd feel like a total sleaze even though you were honest and genuine and trying to do the right thing and express attraction... so you slink off with your tail between your legs just hating her for being a bitch and being out of your league... then for whatever reason she later tries to accept your invitation, you'd think she was just toying with you, and pride / embarrassment would probably make you avoid her advances even though you would still be compelled to act like you're still attracted to avoid making the initial accusation of your being a sleaze accurate.

Does this make things clearer? Missed windows are a disaster and fuck things up permanently. Endy story. But if you absolutely must do this, then proceed by doing nothing. If she contacts you then maybe you have a slim chance. If that happens don't get excited, don't respond, just post her text here and seek further advice... delayed response = good.

-Ray

 

[Tinderthrowawa]

Hi Ray, that makes sense - I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks, I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future

So turns out I received a reply from her today:
"Hey! I've just been sick this whole week, so have been sleeping a bunch why has your week been so long? I'm busy next weekend but I'll be back for feb 13 weekend"

This was in response to me asking about her week (giving information about mine being really busy) and then asking about her schedule to set up another meet-up. I'll wait a while before replying but what is your assessment of what's going on and your advice on what to do? Again, your help is VERY appreciated

 

[ray_zorse]

Oh well, I may have misread things, possibly she is keen after all (but be suspicious, since proposing a hangout weeks away might just be another roadblock, it sure gives her plenty of time to throw a spanner in the works)... is there any special reaason you can't hangout during the week, is it due to your schedules or does she live in another town or something?

Well, a high value man probably wouldn't commit to a date more than about 5 days in advance, in case something better came up (unless his schedule is full and he's delaying it a bit).

Why don't you just do nothing for about 1.5wks and then hit her up with something like "lets go with your suggestion for a hangout this weekend if that still works"... what do u think?

-Ray

 

[Tinderthrowawa]

Hi Ray, I agree with your thoughts and will stay wary. But I'm glad it isn't completely hopeless. I'm building on my abundance mentality so that I'm not too disappointed should this not work. And yes, the meet-up is so far away because we live in different towns (2 hours by public transit).

Your suggestion about waiting 1.5 weeks before replying does make sense because then I don't risk showing over-investment. However, I'm just afraid of this causing auto-rejection and her turning cold because she thinks the lack of contact means I'm no longer interested. So I think I have two other options besides not replying for 1.5 weeks. I would ideally want a meet-up ASAP but this isn't possible. I have one option of suggesting that we meet in the middle (1 hour commute for both of us) during a weekday, and this way the gap won't be too long. The downside to this is that it will not be great for logistics (and of course, I've been moving slow enough already so this will make that worse, and possibly another disappointment for her). My second option is to text every few days, just to keep her warm. Of course, this can also backfire if I don't strike a good balance between putting in too much effort vs. making it seem like I hardly care (which is tough because, well, I do).

Based on your knowledge and experience, and in my situation (after 4 good dates, she seems to like you, not yet intimate, and still 2+ weeks until the next meet-up), what do you think would be best to keep her around and have her invest? As always, thanks a lot. You're fuckin' awesome

 

[ray_zorse]

I see. You raise interesting points and some useful suggestions that I would endorse in other circumstances.

I've thought about it and I would still go with the radio silence.

(a) Rewarding/punishing angle... You don't want to reward a text that is bad for you (excuses not to hang out, however valid those excuses might be) with attention and chasing. In a shallow sense the fact she contacted you deserves a reward and lower value guys would have jumped in to do exactly that, but in a deeper sense it would be rewarding her for having cut contact for days (again however valid her excuse might be).

(b) Value/attainability angle... you're concerned about auto rejection and you are right, radio silence is a + value, - attainability move, and auto rejection = too low attainability. But, you have plenty of attainability -- you've gone on 4 dates with her, contacted her frequently (a - value, + attainability move that you're proposing to continue)... you've even been enough of a gentleman to wait for sex (I know this contradicts what I said about missed window but it depends on the girl)... so you are clearly in it for the long haul. What you need now is more value and less attainability, see what I mean?

-Ray

 

[Tinderthrowawa]

Yeah, alright that makes a lot of sense. One other consideration I want to bring up is that I am setting a boyfriend precedent, so would radio silence for 1.5 weeks send me into ultra-unattainable territory? I wouldn't want to turn the boyfriend / gentleman vibe into something negative. Or is it really best just to show dominance and less investment early on when getting to know her?

I will most likely go down the radio silence path but just wanted your thoughts on that last concern of mine. Thanks Ray

 

[ray_zorse]

I don't think that's a concern. Lover = unattainable, bf = attainable, but it's unlikely you can go from bf to lover cos the precedent of attainability is hard to remove once set. But look I'm not an expert, Chase could better answer your questions. I'm just going by a hodge podge of what I've read + fuckups I've made and what I took away from those fuckups. See my early FRs under [C], from August/September 2014 before I started a journal for an idea, though they aren't too well written.
-Ray

 

[luego]

This is a horrible weekend to be scheduling for. Although she's specifically telling you she's back, then. So, do you really want to be trying for something on Feb 14 (Valentine's day)? If she's looking to set something up with you for that day, you're probably already in decent bf territory. Which sounds good, because it sounds like you're invested already. Now you just need to sleep with her.

I'm not sure how to play this. I'd be texting her sporadically, flirting a bit, being a bit (not much) of an asshole. NOT chasing. Not texting each day. The main question is if you're trying to lock her into a Valentines day date a week in advance (clearly portraying that she's your prime option, which is generally bad), or hoping her valentine's day sucks, and you can get away with a late invite for the 15th.

Edit: I'd think you can try preserve sexual aggression if the logistics suck, as well. The right kiss (against a wall, hard, hands in her hair, grab her ass... with a "fuck. if only we were alone"... sort of thing.) But that's not my area of expertise.

 

[Whizzy]

I met a girl from another dating app recently, not Tinder, and scheduled the date for almost a month away. Granted this was back in the beginning of January and we are still on track to meetup for next week. The key for something like this is to have a minimal texting presence but still maintain interest so that she doesn't forget about you all together. Which also brings to mind that picking the correct time of day to text her can make all the difference of the world. I can't tell you the number of times a girl will enthusiastically text me while I'm busy at work, the gym or whatever...and I mean to get back to her but just simply forget because I get caught up in other things. Girls are the exact same way. This girl from Skout that I have a date with next week and I talk maybe one night a week when we are both free, otherwise we just don't have the time to get back to one another. Also by keeping the texting to once a week shows interest, but also that you are one busy man. Just remember that if you try this to not go overboard in texting her that one night, and also to text with a purpose...not the aimless banter that many guys try that only bores girls.

In terms of the dates you two have been on so far, I would generally say that unless sex is happening they should have been kept to maybe an hour and a half tops. I get the feeling from reading through this that at least one, if not a couple of the dates were rather lengthy but didn't help you achieve much. Considering this is your fifth date with her, I would really consider NEXTing her altogether for a while, if not permanently. You seem much more hung up over her than she is over you and it's hard to reverse something like that the more time you two spend on texting/dates. That being said if you do still want to pursue her, there are a couple of techniques that will either make her melt for you instantly or reject you altogether. If you two hangout again then make sure that it's at either her place or yours, then right when she/you walk through the door just manhandle kiss her and proceed to show her how much of a man you are. If it doesn't work out then she was not that interested in you sexually anyways and you can move on knowing that since missed out and you'll rock the next girls world that is lucky enough to go on a date with you