Observations Dating Apps... Are the New Friend Zone

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
4,065
Some stuff I've been turning over in my head lately.

When I started Girls Chase in 2008, it was to bridge the gap between seducers, who had a lot of great hard tech, mindsets, and processes that was really effective at getting girls, and regular guys, who were all stuck hanging out in the friend zone, trying to get girls in their daily lives inch-by-inch, meanwhile feeling like cold approach was way too hard, too much work, probably a scam/didn't work, and unlikely to be at all effective.

So the whole thing for me for years was about leading guys away from this step-wise mindset toward women in their regular lives, toward taking some risks and building their confidence and meeting women in real life instead. I think a lot of guys in the PUA world had this mindset of "lead guys away from the friend zone toward seduction", if they were at all focused on working with new guys.

But these days, every guy knows the friend zone is a trap. There've been a million movies about it, a billion memes, a hundred thousand crying Reddit posts; guys worked through the anger, they figured out they aren't going to get anything hovering around in the friend zone waiting for table scraps, and nobody does it anymore.

Instead, all the guys who used to hang out in the friend zone started using apps.

chart-how-couples-have-met.jpg

Girls Chase was doing great until around late 2018, early 2019, when all of a sudden everything started breaking all at once. Guys became a lot more resistant to buying products, traffic started falling, advertising costs shot up. I was trying to figure out what it was -- but it was like this collective shift in the market where stuff that guys wanted in the past they suddenly didn't want anymore.

The whole positioning of our flagship product, One Date, is basically "here's how you can get girls from your day-to-day life. Here's a way you can get that girl you're crushing on and make her into a girlfriend. Or you can use it to shag a bunch too. It works for regular guys and it works for playboys."

But it's gotten progressively more and more expensive trying to sell One Date to advertising traffic. It's like 3-4x more expensive today than it was 2.5 years ago. Guys coming from Girls Chase also buy less. There are plenty of other niches where advertising costs have gone up, but not really that much. Anecdotally, many of the big players in the men's dating advice niche got out a few years ago; there's been talk of changing tides for years.

The impression I keep getting is that what we are selling is off the mark for what guys are looking for now.

Now we get guys saying stuff like, "Does this work for apps?" or "I wasn't satisfied with this. There's not enough about apps in it."

Increasingly it feels like telling guys, "Look, don't be hovering around in the friend zone, that doesn't work. Do this instead: I know it's scary but it works a lot better," is missing the mark.

Instead it feels more and more like I'm finding myself telling guys, "Look, don't be hovering around on these apps, that doesn't work. Do this instead: I know it's scary but it works a lot better."

As I do our marketing, I'm finding more and more of the stuff I'm making is basically reinventing the way I used to market, which was "Here are a bunch of epiphanies about why the friend zone doesn't work and cold approach is so much better" to, instead, "Here are a bunch of epiphanies about why dating apps don't work and cold approach is so much better."

App guys have the exact same critiques of cold approach friend zone guys used to have: it's too hard, it wouldn't work for me, it's all a scam, etc. etc.

You have guys who are getting results with apps. But you also always had guys getting results from friend zone / friend groups back in the day. Years ago there would always be guys saying, "The friend zone is GREAT if you know how to work it right," or, "I sleep with girls all the time from the 'friend zone'. The friend zone is an awesome place to be." And the majority of guys running friend zone game were also getting laid sometimes... just usually not with their top choice girls. Which is what you see with apps (are there any app guys who'd tell you "I get girls who are SO much hotter and better girlfriend quality on apps than I could ever meet in real life"? That is one thing you used to hear at least occasionally from social circle guys that I don't think you ever really hear from app guys these days...).

You get some cold approach seducers also using apps. Just like you always had some cold approach seducers shagging girls from their friend groups.

I don't know. More and more to me, it is beginning to seem like guys have shifted over from hanging out in the friend zone not getting laid to hanging out on apps not getting laid. Their objections to PUA are the same. However, you're missing the mark these days if you're still talking about "here's how to meet that cute girl you always see" or "here's why that girl you like isn't going to get together with you you just hanging around waiting and hoping." Guys aren't really doing that much anymore -- instead they're just swiping infinitely, following women on Instagram, sending them gifts on Twitch, Only Fans, cam girl sites, etc.

Am I wrong that "the friend zone of 2021, i.e. the place most guys are trapped in, not getting laid, thinking there's no alternative is dating apps"?

Chase
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
1,810
Location
South Florida
Some stuff I've been turning over in my head lately.

When I started Girls Chase in 2008, it was to bridge the gap between seducers, who had a lot of great hard tech, mindsets, and processes that was really effective at getting girls, and regular guys, who were all stuck hanging out in the friend zone, trying to get girls in their daily lives inch-by-inch, meanwhile feeling like cold approach was way too hard, too much work, probably a scam/didn't work, and unlikely to be at all effective.

So the whole thing for me for years was about leading guys away from this step-wise mindset toward women in their regular lives, toward taking some risks and building their confidence and meeting women in real life instead. I think a lot of guys in the PUA world had this mindset of "lead guys away from the friend zone toward seduction", if they were at all focused on working with new guys.

But these days, every guy knows the friend zone is a trap. There've been a million movies about it, a billion memes, a hundred thousand crying Reddit posts; guys worked through the anger, they figured out they aren't going to get anything hovering around in the friend zone waiting for table scraps, and nobody does it anymore.

Instead, all the guys who used to hang out in the friend zone started using apps.

View attachment 216

Girls Chase was doing great until around late 2018, early 2019, when all of a sudden everything started breaking all at once. Guys became a lot more resistant to buying products, traffic started falling, advertising costs shot up. I was trying to figure out what it was -- but it was like this collective shift in the market where stuff that guys wanted in the past they suddenly didn't want anymore.

The whole positioning of our flagship product, One Date, is basically "here's how you can get girls from your day-to-day life. Here's a way you can get that girl you're crushing on and make her into a girlfriend. Or you can use it to shag a bunch too. It works for regular guys and it works for playboys."

But it's gotten progressively more and more expensive trying to sell One Date to advertising traffic. It's like 3-4x more expensive today than it was 2.5 years ago. Guys coming from Girls Chase also buy less. There are plenty of other niches where advertising costs have gone up, but not really that much. Anecdotally, many of the big players in the men's dating advice niche got out a few years ago; there's been talk of changing tides for years.

The impression I keep getting is that what we are selling is off the mark for what guys are looking for now.

Now we get guys saying stuff like, "Does this work for apps?" or "I wasn't satisfied with this. There's not enough about apps in it."

Increasingly it feels like telling guys, "Look, don't be hovering around in the friend zone, that doesn't work. Do this instead: I know it's scary but it works a lot better," is missing the mark.

Instead it feels more and more like I'm finding myself telling guys, "Look, don't be hovering around on these apps, that doesn't work. Do this instead: I know it's scary but it works a lot better."

As I do our marketing, I'm finding more and more of the stuff I'm making is basically reinventing the way I used to market, which was "Here are a bunch of epiphanies about why the friend zone doesn't work and cold approach is so much better" to, instead, "Here are a bunch of epiphanies about why dating apps don't work and cold approach is so much better."

App guys have the exact same critiques of cold approach friend zone guys used to have: it's too hard, it wouldn't work for me, it's all a scam, etc. etc.

You have guys who are getting results with apps. But you also always had guys getting results from friend zone / friend groups back in the day. Years ago there would always be guys saying, "The friend zone is GREAT if you know how to work it right," or, "I sleep with girls all the time from the 'friend zone'. The friend zone is an awesome place to be." And the majority of guys running friend zone game were also getting laid sometimes... just usually not with their top choice girls. Which is what you see with apps (are there any app guys who'd tell you "I get girls who are SO much hotter and better girlfriend quality on apps than I could ever meet in real life"? That is one thing you used to hear at least occasionally from social circle guys that I don't think you ever really hear from app guys these days...).

You get some cold approach seducers also using apps. Just like you always had some cold approach seducers shagging girls from their friend groups.

I don't know. More and more to me, it is beginning to seem like guys have shifted over from hanging out in the friend zone not getting laid to hanging out on apps not getting laid. Their objections to PUA are the same. However, you're missing the mark these days if you're still talking about "here's how to meet that cute girl you always see" or "here's why that girl you like isn't going to get together with you you just hanging around waiting and hoping." Guys aren't really doing that much anymore -- instead they're just swiping infinitely, following women on Instagram, sending them gifts on Twitch, Only Fans, cam girl sites, etc.

Am I wrong that "the friend zone of 2021, i.e. the place most guys are trapped in, not getting laid, thinking there's no alternative is dating apps"?

Chase
After Corona all the dating app. Guys cashed in the dude of pwf making 30k a month.... money in dating is monthly master mind type groups....with monthly membership....
 

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
4,065
Well, I don't want to turn this into a talk about the industry.

$30K/mo is not big for this space. That said I think their company is only a few years old and all bootstrapped, so good on PwF. They're probably living a decent lifestyle off that assuming profits are decent.

Mastermind groups are a decent way to get a core group of dedicated fans value and build a recurring base for the business. We're rolling one of those out as an option for Hector's MGE course. The challenge with masterminds is they tend to have very small (if dedicated) appeal. It's hard to really scale that up to, say, a couple thousand users.

The point of this thread is more the changing mainstream focus of guys out there, shifting away from "regular guys automatically start doing the friend zone thing with girls, then get depressed about girls dating other guys and not them" toward, instead, "regular guys start automatically going on dating apps and swiping endlessly but getting no matches, then get depressed about their looks."

Chase
 

POB

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
184
Location
South America
The core problem in my opinion is not so much the apps per se....apps are just the tool....the main issue is guys are completely ignoring basic game fundamentals in favor of shallow virtual interactions who effectively puts them in friend zone. "Oh, but it has always happened"....well, not like today.

It's not only learning cold-approach who's getting shunned...even stuff like how to properly do dates, how to change venues, how to isolate and super basic escalation techniques....almost nobody is learning those concepts anymore! I guarantee that if I talk about VindiCarlo and Kino, ppl are gonna run to xvideos assuming he is a porn actor using some sort of enlargement gel for his penis lol.

I'll not discuss the quality of attainable girls on apps, that's a gigantic topic...but guys don't realize that even online goes way beyond having good pictures (to get matches) and decent texting (to get dates)...that's just the start....the real life meeting stuff, which should be rock solid, is bad, really bad (way worse than say 3-4 years ago).

Damn, even supermarket cashiers are constantly eye-baling me and giving me AIs when I do my groceries....a real state agent did the same a while back while showing me a condo...I also get girls blatantly checking my crotch on the streets....it's like they are begging "please open me and flirt, I need to talk to man flesh".

I blame two things:
1) technology: apps made the dating pool accessible to everyone...and I mean EVERYONE. Before you had to dress up and go out into the jungle to fight for the best partners (men and women alike had to do it). Regular looking dudes had to learn things on the fly by jumping straight into the fire (aka the right way). How many times I got home frustrated and empty handed, just to be back to that same spot the very next weekend to try again (and I was skinny, shy and had no game). Nowadays? Who cares? Just put filter on top of filter and get your fake enhanced photos to the app.

2) current generation is born and living an abundant virtual life: people are effectively living their lives online now more than ever (my 6 year old nephew knows more about smartphones than myself). I OTOH am a fucking dinosaur who grew up with dialed internet and ICQ chats lol. My first online date was from ICQ. And I did it in secret to not be labeled a loser by my friends!

We know there's always gonna be a place for pick-up. Guys taking the harder path of learning game will always be ahead of the competition (and the gap is getting wider by the day).

But to sell pick-up and seduction in this day and age, where the dumbest tik-tok videos (that teach you NOTHING) get millons and millions of views? Well, it's hard to compete with that kind of short spammed attention whoring.

As a final note, guys who are successful online more or less have decent understanding of basic pick-up. They may never be seducers, but at least they have studied some game and put themselves to the test. Most newcomers are not even wiling to do that, hence why they end up in this virtual friend zone loop.

Just my two cents.

POB
 
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Bismarck

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
213
Yeah I feel like if I’d gone on Tinder in 2014 when I had my muscles I would probably have cleaned up.

Instead, tried it for the first time last year and promised myself: “never again.” Swiping and being ignored = putting women on a pedestal, whereas seeing a hot girl and approaching her = taking action.


/Bizz

PS
The difference is in what you occupy your mind with, in terms of thinking/brainpower use. If I immediately talk to the babe I see I can free up my mind to get on with whatever it is I’m doing, whereas if I just swipe and obsess over girls and get ignored they begin to take over my thoughts.

PPS
Tinder and such mostly give the illusion of spinning plates, but they aren’t really spinning plates tools.

PPPS
Social media is a woman’s world. Approaching babes IRL is a man’s world.
 
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