Dating Someone Less Physically Attractive

[heman]

Suppose you are a 7-9 as a guy, and you have consistently dated females ranging from 7-9 but been dissatisfied with their personalities.

Then, let's say that as a 7-9 guy, you find a girl who would rate a solid 6 to most other guys but you fall in love with her because she is brilliant, sweet, drama free, accomplished (makes more than $200,000 per year), is good mother and wife material, and has a nice slender build. Your friends comment and say things like "but your ex was so beautiful" and you nod in agreement before telling them it doesn't matter because your ex was a lunatic and you're glad to be rid of her. You go home to the most wonderful woman you've ever met, but every time you look at her you are reminded that every other guy you pass will look at you and think "what's wrong with that guy's game? he should be pulling 7-9 the way he looks, he must have a terrible personality or confidence issues!"

Pros: Intelligent, humble, sweet, great sex (she has had more than 50 orgasms easily in one night with me), great chemistry, slim figure, high income, appreciates the finer things in life, will be a great mother and wife, has lots of good friends, absolutely ZERO drama, doesn't nag or complain, etc.

Cons: Rather thin hair, spider and varicose veins on legs at a young age, size A breasts.

Clearly, her pros vastly outweigh her cons. I am obviously not going to break up with her, she is way too awesome for that. Just want some advice on getting past the fact that she may not seem up to my typical beauty standards based on my past relationships. Basically, I am not sure how to go about not giving a shit what anyone else thinks about her looks.

Thanks

 

[ray_zorse]

It's helpful to read Eckhart Tolle "A new earth" or his other books, a lot of the book is about ego, ego-based relationships etc. The basic premise is that your ego is always feeling fragile and impermanent. It wants to make itself more permanent by attaching itself to objects: A bigger bank balance, a larger apartment, a more expensive car, a trophy wife... the problem is that as it acquires more and more it feels only a brief instant of satisfaction, followed by even more insecurity and hunger. So the chances are, that if you're approaching this from an egoic viewpoint, then the moment you break up with your current gf and acquire a new gf whom you think is "hotter", say an 8-9, you'll just feel even more insecure. All of a sudden there'll be more problems, she might be high maintenance, you might worry she's cheating (remember the ego always feels insecure and impermanent no matter how strongly it attaches itself to objects)... your friends may start to complain about her behaviour, how long she takes to get ready... etc... all this is a further hit to your ego. Basically, once you start playing the ego game, you can only lose. Luckily, you are not your ego. Most dudes identify with their ego and so remain trapped by it. Tolle has visualization strategies, etc, to separate yourself from your ego, although it's probably a lifelong quest.

So, don't worry about what your friends think. Ignore. Your status does not come from external validation, it comes from inside you. If you're happy with your relationship then that's the end of the matter really. Having said that... you might have posted on this forum because you wanted dudes to say "well, if you're agonizing over this then you're probably in quest for absolute abundance", you sure can keep approaching and kicking arse and you will eventually get a girl with all those traits and the looks and other physical traits that you desire, or the ability to get such a girl anytime, which is what we call absolute abundance.

So it's really down to whether your issue is coming from insecurity or ambition. If the former, use strategies to separate yourself from your ego (and look into toxic shame too, because your subconscious might be constantly hammering on you that you're not good enough, this is called a shame spiral and leaves you very vulnerable to others' opinions)... but if the latter then you know what you must do.

Ray

Edit: I forgot I was going to share a personal story. Well in 1996 (so long ago... I was 21)... I went on a 9-month odyssey in which I with 2 friends bought a camper (in Byelorussia actually, it was rotting in a farmer's field) and fixed it up (in Poland) and travelled around Europe in it. During the fixing up phase, which took about 3~4 months, I did a cold approach, although I did not know it at the time. If only... anyway, our host mum taught me to say "czy chcialabasz zatanczyc?" or "would you like to dance?", I tried this line on a chick in a nightclub and she became my girlfriend. But I copped a lot of flak from my friends who kept saying she was ugly for some reason. In retrospect I think she was about an 8 for me in looks, great body, absolutely lovely personality, chasing hard too, she was a high school student (17 I think), spoke Polish and French, and I ended up meeting her family and hanging out with her a lot. The other 2 guys had girlfriends too, who weren't as hot, and I think they were just jealous, especially as I was a bit of a shy nerd type and not known for hitting on girls. Anyway I succumbed to social pressure and dumped her by leaving without saying goodbye (I can't believe I did this), we did the 4mth trip around Europe and I wasn't going to contact her when I got back... luckily she found out our host mum's address and came around to see me and I relented. I'd had a major falling out with the guys by this time, which helped. But basically I was an egoic pussy.

 

[heman]

That was exactly what I needed to hear ray, thank you for the amazing insight and advice.

I know that I can have most single ladies I pursue, and I am not afraid of rejection which has been the key to my past success. But this one I really want to keep around, and I am not looking for a quest to conquer more ladies as long as I am with her. I just want to get past my own fragile ego and be satisfied with the wonderful woman I have happened to fall in love with and not worry about what others think.

I will definitely read some Eckhart Tolle. To me, my girlfriend may not be a 'trophy' wife the way most men think of trophies, but I feel I've won the lottery everyday I am with her as her abundance of good qualities far outshines any other girl I've dated. In fact, although most guys may say she isn't hot, her brilliant mind and personality have left me feeling that the women I dated in the past were average and boring no matter how good they looked.

Awesome response man, and thanks again!

 

[Franco]

heman,

Not to discredit ray and radeng here as they have some sound things to say about your situation, but I'm going to play a bit more devil's advocate here.

It's completely understandable to enjoy a girl who isn't top-of-the-line in the "looks" department for you -- some of the best sex (and blowjobs) I've had have been from girls who were sub-par in the looks department; they were either a bit heavier than I normally prefer or more of a "butterface" than I prefer. Some of them also had great personalities, which made them great candidates for friends-with-benefits or casual relationships lasting a few weeks or months.

That being said, my guess is that you would not have brought this up if you had any doubt in your mind that this girl is "the girl" that you should lock into a long-term monogamous relationship. It really depends on what your standards are. For me, a girl has to be absolutely outstanding in every single category that matters (looks included) to become my girlfriend, and, of course, anything beyond that. If I find myself having to justify to my friends (or myself for that matter) why I'm with her, then it probably means I'm trying to push the envelope by making her great qualities seem better than they actually are to negate her imperfections. For me, that's equivalent to trying to justify my failure (which in this case would be settling for a girl who isn't up to par with either [1] what I know I'm capable of or [2] what I want to be capable of). So unless you want to be fending off these feelings from both yourself and your friends for the rest of your life, you should strongly consider whether or not this is a girl you want to keep for an extended period of time or permanently.

To counteract some of the negativity that might have come from the last few things I've said, I do want to mention that there are millions of beautiful women out there, and a strong (enough) percentage of them have all of the qualities that you're probably looking for without having to settle for a drop in looks. I would say that, on average, I run into 1 or 2 women per year (if I'm actively meeting new people) that meet those standards, and then it's just a matter of making the right moves to take them to bed and make them mine. It doesn't always work out, but I can rely on the fact that I have around two chances per year to meet an incredible woman.

Rather than trying to bottle up your insecurities, give them some introspection and see if those insecurities are somewhat valid in the sense that you know you can do "better" than what you've done. That's not to say that you can't keep this girl around for awhile, but don't try to pump up her great qualities as an excuse to dismiss the poor ones.

Hope this provides some more insight.

- Franco

 

[Franco]

radeng,

Not to change the topic too much, but every girls looks will change and at the very best you will eventually have an old used to be unicorn girl at some point. Do you plan on dumping your old unicorn for a hotter younger girl eventually? I've always wondered this about myself. Curious to your thoughts on it. You know you're ability to attract hot women in almost every case will outlast your girls ability to stay as hot as you could get. Especcially if you choose to have children. How do you wrap your head around this ethically? or would you reccomend to opt for waiting to choose a mate right at your max ability to find one, say between 35-50 depending on the guy.

Yeah, it's natural for every guy to ponder this, especially a guy who's already pretty good with women. As I've gotten older (and better), I've realized that my wants and needs change with the time and place I'm at in my life, so I've decided it's actually best not make any "this is final" type of decisions on things that very much could change in my future. With where I'm at right now, I have no intention of getting married, living with a girl, or having children for the foreseeable future. I say "foreseeable future" because I don't want to say "never;" this could easily change 10 to 15 years down the road, and maybe I'll suddenly want a wife and/or children. It's hard to say.

I think the most important thing is to never say "never" to anything since what you feel right at this moment in time isn't guaranteed to be the way you feel down the road with more experience and older age. It may turn out I never get married or live with a woman until the day I die and be completely satisfied with that, but it could also be that I find an amazing woman and suddenly decide I want a child at the age of 32, and my entire life changes at that point. It all depends.

Just to add -- and this might just be my personal opinion -- but I also think that it's important to avoid permanent decisions until you're older and more experienced so that you can be sure that you're ready to deal with the consequences. So, for example, I don't think any guy should be having children until he's at least in his 30s because there is way too much to learn in your 20s about women, and you want to gather all of that knowledge first so you can understand all of the possibilities that are out there. What your decision might be after all that knowledge and experience may be entirely different from the decision you would make without all of that knowledge and experience, and ultimately, you obviously want to make the best decision to impact your life because you only get one life on this planet.

This is mostly how I feel about the situation!

- Franco

 

[HellAtlantic]

The Pros you list are great, however what happens when she morphs into a complainer? Is that still going to make you overlook her lack of outstanding attractiveness? girls change when the kids come. They all nag and become complainers when the kids come. Just an FYI to you.

 

[ray_zorse]

Hell the problem is basically when she feels she "has" you, she's no longer on best behaviour trying to "get" you, and will revert to her "true self", in my case my wife was cluster B and the change when we got married was quite marked, but I made it clear I would divorce her if this continued (this discussion occurred a few days after returning from honeymoon and she wasn't a happy camper), was even more marked after first child born but was HELL after second child, I guess she figured at that point I REALLY couldn't escape. This is also documented to occur after you move in together, buy a house together or start a business together. BUT, all women aren't cluster B and I am convinced this can be avoided by screening, careful observation and good relationship management. To some extent the quality of the r/ship before kids will determine how she handles it, it could be rock solid, good compliance on her part, strong frame on your part... Or it could be all over the place, with problems masked by your provider qualities and her good behaviour as a result. I am pretty sure I won't have this issue again.

Radeng a woman's looks mature with time. Check some pictures of her mum and also make sure she has good fashion sense, goes to gym, cares for her skin etc. I regularly see 60+ stunners here in Melbourne, some of them Asian (which I put down to good genes and better fashion / makeup that emphasizes her good qualities) but also all nationalities. More often they've just let themselves go, or they weren't that beautiful in thr first place, "club hot" so to speak. I really doubt this is an issue if you choose wisely

+1 Franco, keep your options open. I wanted to ask my current gf to move in after I got back from recent holiday but I am glad I didn't. She currently stays over every weekend and even that is a bit much sometimes. Heman I have the same situation with my gf, she photographs very well so it's somewhat dependent on how she presents herself, but at the same time I will be continuing my quest for abundance soon. I don't think this is a reflection on my gf or her looks though, it's more to do with my own needs -- I have to accept that having opened Pandora's box I can never be happy with a typical nice-guy settled life. I will probably die alone, haha...

Ray

 

[heman]

I dated a unicorn for many years. She had the smarts, the looks, but she was emotionally unstable due to some serious childhood baggage.

This girl is extremely rare. So rare in fact, that I have been pulled aside by several men who know her well and have said roughly "this one is special, you've done well for yourself so be good to her." I can't believe how many "fathers" she has. She is probably one of the smartest 1,000 females in the country, and that is not an exaggeration. Valedictorian at a top-notch prep academy, then top of her class at an ivy league school, then onto one of the most difficult surgical specialties there is which accepts only about 40 people each year across the country (very few of whom are female).

@Franco, I have no doubts about her. I really don't think that there are many women out there like her. With all of the vain, insipid, and vapid females running around in this country, I feel that she's a rare gem. Couple that with all of her other amazing qualities and I just can't imagine finding anyone who is a better fit for me. For the first time in my romantic life I am TRULY happy. I am not watching my back, worried about the next fight, constantly wondering what she'll think, or persistently nagged. Over one year in and she hasn't nagged me once to lift a finger!

My issue is simply getting past my ego and coming to terms with the fact that hunting for trophies leaves far too many of us miserable and alone. I have had my fair share of older tail-chasers insist that I ought not repeat their mistakes. It is still not easy, because a part of me still wants to be that guy who pulls up in the Ferrari and impresses his friends. The thing is, there is far more to a relationship than just what your friends get to see, and that is exactly why I know I want to be with her. The hard part for me has been getting past my own insecurities which are more pronounced than I had realized. Something we all have to remember is that beauty fades. Who will you be with 30 years from now? Will you be chasing young females all your life? I don't want that personally, and no matter how they look now, they will not probably be stunning when they are 60 or 70.

I look at someone like Hugh Jackman, who has a wife that has aged and most guys would not consider hot, and yet they have been together for a long time. Just imagine how hard it must be for him, having access to the finest girls in Hollywood and being in the public eye. But, then you look at all of the hot celebrity couples and how their relationships come and go. I wish I had Hugh Jackman's balls, but I don't. My goal is to get there, and I am applying the "fake it until you make it principle" until I hopefully achieve that level of confidence.

@HellAtlantic: I don't see that happening. You don't become as hardcore as her, seeing death, seeing the most gruesome and horrific disfigurements, being charged with running an operating room and working 120 hour weeks by being a complainer. I have a friend who is former special forces, and another than is a former SEAL. I joke often that her personality is similar to theirs. She is mentally tough, despite being sweet. I myself am a former Navy aviator and I think she is definitely tougher than me. This chick has seen the worst stuff life has to offer, fixed it, and sent it home in one piece. I know that I could be wrong, because it's impossible to know until the kids actually arrive, but I have seen how her two sisters behave with their husbands and they are similar to her. I have never seen them nag, and both of them worked full time within one week of giving birth. Her whole family is just super driven and hard working like that.

Amazingly, despite being a feminist's ideal modern woman, she is surprisingly in touch with being feminine and allowing me to be a man. And, for all of my insecurities about her looks, I have to say that she can pull them in pretty well too. She has had a couple of dating partners over the years, and they were all pretty good looking (one was a high powered doctor that would probably rate a 9 to a lot of the young and money obsessed girls). They mostly couldn't handle her work schedule and one didn't like that she earns more than him.

@ray_zorse: Her problem is simply not having the time to be fashionable and to wear lots of makeup. A slow week for her is 70 hours. She is on the go a lot, which I am fine with, but it also means she can't spend a lot of time grooming herself. She does wear makeup, and I think that if she knew how to use it better and if she had more time to style her hair other than just straight she would actually be in 7-8 territory. Frankly, when you see models without makeup and how ghastly they often look, I would say that my gf looks better than that. Maybe with the right makeup artist she could be stunning, but as a guy I don't know. I have thought about getting her a spa certificate and makeover for her birthday next month. She does like mani / pedi and massages.

Her mother is actually quite attractive, considering she is in her mid-60s probably and still in good shape despite having 5 children.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I have enjoyed reading all of your responses!

 

[Zoro]

Just want to put in my two cents.

Every great relationship I've had I've wondered how am I going to top this? We have great chemistry and she's sexy.

Well when it would end I'd let go and keep myself open to the possibilities and found a girl even MORE compatible and well adjusted.

This has happened several times and now I expect to raise the bar or at least have high standards for WHAT IS POSSIBLE. The last girl I was in a relationship with was my favorite combo of cute and sexy petite blonde, closet nerd interested in cool shit, and had many common interests in core values, super low drama, great sex and always horny for me.

That being said I'm also becoming more open to less attractive women lately, since I've had a few encounters with some fun and interesting girls who still get the trouser snake up.

 

[Drck]

Trust yourself, trust your logic. Stop seeking approval of others, follow your own mind...

I agree, a girl who is 5-6 can have many times true value much higher than girl who is 8-9. Pretty face will fade away, you can swear today that she is the prettiest girl you've ever seen, but after couple of months from now she'll just look casual to you. That's when the true value appears.

A girl who is 5-6 has to work hard to keep higher value guy around, she has to improve a lot if she wants great relationship. On the other hand, if she is 8-9 she doesn't really have to do anything, she knows that she can have 10 other guys wrapped up around her finger the same week she dumps you... Which decreases your value, and if you are honest with yourself you simply must admit that you are not the only great guy around... So you also have to work a lot to keep 8-9 around (as there are always plenty of hungry wolfs around just waiting for the right opportunity), whereas with 6 you don't have to do much... Thus many 6's do have TRUE value...

 

[Chase]

He-Man,

What you’re looking for (some sort of convincing argument that allows you to ignore the opinions of others and plow on ahead with a woman you second-guess yourself about every time you look at her face) doesn’t exist, unfortunately.

There are two options only:

• Live with the second-guessing, and cut off the people who are bringing it to the forefront of your head until it moves to the background and you only wake up sweating over it once in a blue moon

• Take the second-guessing as a sign that you can do better, then cut bait and go do so

Which path you follow is up to you. I suspect it’ll be the first path. I’ve seen a lot of guys come out of dramatic relationships with a girl they considered hot, like what you had with your emotionally unstable unicorn, and the result is nearly always that the girl they wife up not long after is noticeably less attractive.

A woman who’s less attractive than your batting average is always going to be lower maintenance at the outset, and will treasure you more and cherish you more pre-commitment, because she knows she’s getting a steal. She’s getting a guy who should be out of her league… and he’s settling, at least a little. So she’ll go out of her way to make him extra comfortable, just so he doesn’t give into that tiny voice in the back of his head that keeps telling him, “Dude, don’t settle! Noooo!”

And you know what? The strategy works. Of my friends who’ve gone this route, I’ve never talked a single one of them out of getting hitched to these girls (and have since stopped trying). They know she’s not as hot as what they could get, but hey, she’s got all these other great qualities… and after all, she’s utterly irreplaceable…

I went through it, with an early girlfriend, the “great in every way except this one way, that keeps bugging me, but no, she’s definitely my perfect girl!” experience. Pretty torturous. I parted ways with her after a number of years, and never regretted it. Every girlfriend I’ve had since then I’ve been 100% on, without doubt, simply because I won’t date her if there’s even a little second-guessing over it now. If there’s even a little bit, I keep looking.

It might be you’re in a bad market for quality girlfriends, judging by your “I’ve looked; she’s super rare” statement, especially if you’re good with girls. Most of the guys I’ve seen settle have either a.) sucked with women, b.) sucked at relationship management, or c.) if they’re good at both things, they were in crummy markets for high quality girlfriends. If it’s c.), usually the only way around that is changing locales, and it seems like a lot of guys would rather settle than change cities.

That said, you seem to have made up your mind, so the basic steps are:

• Cut off the friends who tell you you’re settling… maybe see them once a year

• Make new friends who’ve never known you single, and see you & her as an item

• Look specifically for married friends / couples who are equally close to both and won’t tell you this even if they think it for fear of ruining the friendship

This is the route I’ve noticed most “male settles” relationships seem to go.

However, do go in knowing the risks:

Men With Attractive Wives Report Higher Levels Of Marital Satisfaction, New Study Finds

What Meltzer and her team discovered was that spousal attractiveness does play a major role in marital satisfaction -- but only for men. In other words, men care about looks more than women do.

The authors write, "The significant effect of wives’ attractiveness on husbands’ satisfaction was significantly stronger than the nonsignificant effect of husbands’ attractiveness on wives’ satisfaction, indicating that partner physical attractiveness played a larger role in predicting husbands’ marital satisfaction than it did in predicting wives’ marital satisfaction."

Interestingly, the attractive wives also reported higher levels of satisfaction, all because having a happy hubby made them happier too.

A study conducted in 2008 at the Relationship Institute at UCLA reached a similar finding. Researchers theorized that men who felt they "lucked out" by marrying attractive wives were happier and more likely to care about their wives' needs -- and in turn, the good-looking wives were happier in the relationship as well.

“The husbands seemed to be basically more committed, more invested in pleasing their wives when they felt that they were getting a pretty good deal,” study author Benjamin Karney explained.

Karney said the opposite occurred when the husbands felt they were better looking than their wives, explaining, "They didn’t seem to be quite as motivated to help out their wives when they were more attractive than their wives."

Chase

 

[Franco]

heman,

Chase covered quite a bit above, so I'll just touch on this:

I look at someone like Hugh Jackman, who has a wife that has aged and most guys would not consider hot, and yet they have been together for a long time. Just imagine how hard it must be for him, having access to the finest girls in Hollywood and being in the public eye. But, then you look at all of the hot celebrity couples and how their relationships come and go. I wish I had Hugh Jackman's balls, but I don't. My goal is to get there, and I am applying the "fake it until you make it principle" until I hopefully achieve that level of confidence.

I wouldn't look at an actor's relationship and assume it's all peaches and roses. You don't really know anything at all about their relationship other than they stand next to each other in front of the camera and have a legal contract stating they are married. That's about it.

For all you know, Jackman has an arrangement with his "wife" that allows him to sleep with other women regularly as long as he takes care of the children and brings home the money to feed and raise them. If the woman considers Jackman to be a "steal" (see Chase's statement above), you'd be surprised just how many hoops she'd be willing to jump through to keep him happy -- including letting him sleep with other women. (NOTE: I have a real life friend that has a sub-par looking girl as a wife; he knocked her up when she was relatively cute at 18 years old, and she has since gained weight and never lost it. She has given him threesomes with other women to try to keep him around to raise the child because he was starting to become really unhappy, and it's been enough to keep him around. It's obvious he wishes he had more freedom now, though)

Even if it's not the case that Jackman is sleeping with other women, then in my eyes, he's basically settling -- and settling FAR below his potential. With his social charisma and fame, he could probably do a lot more than he realizes if that's the case. Whether or not he's actually happy is something only he knows, and we don't. So try not to make too many assumptions about what you see on TV with actors and actresses as their lives are almost entirely more nuanced than people are allowed to see and realize. (EDIT: Remember, they are "actors." Whatever interviews you see of them on TV is what they want the media and the target audience to see -- not what they don't want people to not know)

- Franco