Dealing with disruptive/threatening men -outside of pure seduction-

[lux7]

he following story only serves as an example for all similar situations.

BACKGROUND
I was sitting with a girl -I was already having sex with, so it was not at risk of "derailing" seduction- on a bench while waiting for the metro.
We were on our way to an event in an area of the city with lots of artists, stoners and pushers, so a lot of peculiar characters were hanging around.

I hear a guy super high energy, extremely noisy barreling his way behind us, either drunk or on some "upper".
I fear. We are an easy target: I'm small and contrary to all the rest I'm dressed smart, she's Asian dressed stylishly and you can see we both don't blend in with the crowd.

ACTION
He stops in front of us and starts being the asshole he seemed TO BE.
He talks loud and with an invasive body language that seems threatening. Not extremely threatening, mind you, but threatening enough to keep me on the edge and make me fear of possible escalations.
I don't speak much the language and don't understand anything so she replies.

He keeps ranting.
She stops talking to him, I ignore him all along but he doesn't move.
I gesture him not to bother and now look at him.
But he keeps staying.
Now I look away again but it feels a mistake as I first engaged and then retreated.

His position starts becoming untenable though as we are sitting and he's the idiot clowning on his feet.
So he says, this time in English, "say something nice and I will leave".
My girl says something, though not something nice, and he goes.

ANALYSIS
He looked like an idiot, but I didn't look in control, so I was wondering what's the best way to handle these situations?
Even if you want to avoid fighting, I think it's very good when you know you can actually fight, but that's not much my case. Not that I am aware of, at least .

FEEDBACK
Any suggestions on how to handle similar situations while avoiding any escalation?


POST SCRIPT

(I will actually see this guy again that same evening while waiting for the train on the way back, crazy, he's still super high energy passing in front of us, we are standing and when he sees us I say "you again", quite in a friendly way. He does seem more friendly at the beginning, then puts his open hand 5cm away from my face without speaking any more. This time I've had a few drinks and stare at him in the eyes the whole time not much scared and he backs off and leaves).

 

[Thedoctor]

Lucifer,

First off, in all situations, you need to be prepared to fight. If you have that mindset, it will come out in your body language. The beautiful part of this is that vast majority of the time, the other guy isn't actually prepared to fight. He'll eventually leave on his own accord, which is always the best situation. This doesn't mean that you should act super aggressive. Just know that in the back of your mind, you're ready to throw down, even if it means you'll lose.

That being said, I would have treated this guy exactly like he was: a clown. Just act slightly amused and don't give him too much attention. As I said, in most situations, he'll leave on his own. Then when he leaves you just look over at your girl, smile and say something along the lines of "we'll he was entertaining" then just go back to whatever it was you were talking about.

-John

 

[R.A.D.]

Just to throw in another option, i have the opposite problem, i can fight and in fact i had a past of enjoying fighting a little too much so i really had to learn how to chill out when being with girls because girls really dont like you fighting, at least in my experience.

Anyway i think what works for me might work for you since we are both trying to handle a guy without getting agressive with him.

So what i do now is to always walk away with the girl, minding your surroundings so you walk away to an area were either the guy cant follow you or dont want to follow you, like next to a police man, inside some place, in the middle of a big crowd that will reject him for you, etc.

How you walk away makes the difference, you lead the girl away with you, not in fear but instead whatever your reason to avoid the situation you always tell her you do that in other to spare her the ugly spectacle of himself that guy is doing. Then you joke around to keep her relaxed (important if you are going to have sex) and just move around in a very relaxed way. You can even make a game of avoiding him and others, i did that in the past and works pretty well sometimes. The rule is to focus all your attention on the girl and just keep the guy on your peripheral vision just to keep your distance, besides that you ignore him completely.

Remember that in a way he is looking for attention or "defending his territory" like a dog would, so if you take distance and go away in neutral terms it would be rare for him to follow you.

Of course advice number one is try not to go to those kind of places in the first place.

 

[Ross]

FEEDBACK
Any suggestions on how to handle similar situations while avoiding any escalation?

There's an easy way to derail these types of guys with low effort.

If a guy stops in front of you and starts acting like an asshole/clown, immediately aim to take value from him and get him off balanced. You have to be the active one, because if you're passive he's just going to do whatever he wants, and you two may not like that.

Example 1: Extracting value

Asshole: Hey you two are fucking dressed like idiots. You shouldn't be around here, blah blah blah
You: *stand up, be loud, dominant, and even higher energy than he is* Hey!! What's your name?
Asshole: John
You: Hey John, can I borrow some money? I'm short on change
Asshole: The fuck? No you can't borrow any money.
You: Are you sure? Alright man, but you got a smoke to spare?
Asshole: You're fucking crazy dude, I don't have anything to give you.
You: Look man, I could help you out with the cursing problem, just come to my church this Sunday and I'll get you on the right path.
Asshole: *disgusted*
You: *puzzled look, disengage from him and start talking to your girlfriend -or- tell him "thanks anyways, bye" and leave the place*

Example 2: Emotional vampirism/victim mentality

Asshole: Hey you two are fucking dressed like idiots. You shouldn't be around here, blah blah blah
You: *stand up, be loud, dominant, but low energy* Life fucking sucks man.
Asshole: Your life may suck but mine is fucking awesome!
You: Lucky you... Stupid fucking government is ruining my life.
Asshole: The government sucks, they're always spying and -
You: -interrupt him- You're probably part of the government!
Asshole: What? No I'm not! You're fucking nuts.
You: Yeah, I am nuts... I'm such a loser, I just need someone to get my life back in order for me...

I learned most of this from a street smarts article a while back, and it's helped quite a bit. People react in disgust when they see you as nothing more than a social vampire. The idea is to get them to avoid you like you're a plague, and only then can you truly avoid them. Basically, take any negative social traits and put them clear on display. You come out on the upper hand by draining their emotions, which is very useful for keeping away people like this.

 

[Thedoctor]

Asshole: John

I've actually never met a John that wasn't an asshole.

You: *stand up, be loud, dominant, and even higher energy than he is* Hey!! What's your name?

Though I do see a time and a place for this type of approach, I would not recommend it here, especially if you think the guy is on drugs. These are not the type of people you want to agitate. I have a friend that works at a mental institution with violent offenders. He told me a story about a guy who was maybe 130 lbs rip a sink right out of the wall while he was coming down off some drugs. And although he dislocated both his shoulders in the process, it still took four guys to restrain him. He sees this sort of thing a daily basis. People can be extremely unpredictable depending on what they are on.

I would always recommend a calm approach. You can always escalate from there if the situation calls for it (it usually won't), but I would not recommend being loud and dominant right out of the gate.

-John

 

[lux7]

(...) you're ready to throw down, even if it means you'll lose.

That will take some of the pressure off .

Jokes aside, good replies, thanks guys!

 

[lux7]

There's one more thing though I've just thought about "being ready to come to blows".

Even if you "win", you might end up losing big time.
Imagine you get sued. Legal hassle, time lost, emotional drain and.. Risk you end up with quite some money to pay at the end of the travail as well.
And all because of a an idiot going around to provoke people..

 

[Thedoctor]

Lucifer,

Even if you "win", you might end up losing big time.
Imagine you get sued. Legal hassle, time lost, emotional drain and.. Risk you end up with quite some money to pay at the end of the travail as well.
And all because of a an idiot going around to provoke people..

Another reason why it's best to try and de-escalate a situation, even if it means swallowing a bit of your pride. But once you decide there is no other option, you cannot be thinking about the legal ramifications of doing so, especially if you think that your life may be in danger (I'm talking worst case scenarios here). Often enough, guys like that probably already have a criminal record, so it probably wouldn't be hard to prove self-defense.

-John

 

[lux7]

Another reason why it's best to try and de-escalate a situation, even if it means swallowing a bit of your pride.

I totally agree.
A bit of a loss of present "ego" can prevent a much bigger loss of health/money in the future.

But once you decide there is no other option, you cannot be thinking about the legal ramifications of doing so, especially if you think that your life may be in danger (I'm talking worst case scenarios here).

Also agree here, if you have no other options of course you gotta step up (though these cases would be the tiny minority).

Often enough, guys like that probably already have a criminal record, so it probably wouldn't be hard to prove self-defense.

Ehehe .

 

[lux7]

Have you guys taken any self-defense class or something?

 

[Estate]

I think think this really has anything to do with seduction skills or fighting skills or anything like that.

I mean, I don't know where you are exactly but I see this kinda stuff every day downtown and on the subway.
You don't need to "out alpha" some crazy guy or stoner. She already knows the guy is nuts... you're not competing with him for wittiest comeback.

So not seduction tactics will help you.
Also, how is fighting going to help? Getting yourself in trouble and scaring the life out of your girl and making her potentially more vulnerable if you CAN'T defend yourself.

Look, you meet crazies all over town every day. Some of them are even loud and abusive.

Firstly, I am wondering why you guys were an "easy target". Something made him approach you, given you seemed to know beforehand that he would. You were inviting it.
Secondly, when you meet crazies there's a few simple steps... you ignore, if they persist you ask them to leave, if they still persist, YOU leave.
Don't confuse this with being "BETA" or any of that shit PUAs masturbate over. You are PROTECTING your girl and that's all that matters, that SHE did not have to talk to the guy, engage the guy or be near the guy. She at all times, stand BETWEEN her and whatever the threat is... and you move her in the opposite direction. That's it end of story.

Don't get into shouting matches with stoners and junkies. Don't start fights you can't win, actually don't start any where you don't need.
Show your girl that this is just some loser, he's not worth your time and you are a capable grown ass man who will keep her safe when with you.

That's all there is.

 

[Drck]

I don't see anything wrong with what you did.

Remain non-reactive, don't get upset or angry. Once he leaves you can simply shrug your shoulders and tell to your girl: That was weird, or Some people are just weird/high. Then don't talk about it.

The whole interaction might have been much easier if you put or had your arm around her when he started to acting out.

I'd avoid any fights. When he says "Say something nice and I will leave", I would just perhaps smile at him, look at him - and say nothing. Or just totally ignore him, but don't look to the ground (that is submission). Look to the sides, or even better - to the side and slightly above him.

Or instead of paying attention to him, pay attention to your girl. Start talking about something, ask her questions so she has to answer you, switch the subject to something that is not related to him.

Something like this:

1. You sit with your girl, some asshole shows up. He starts talking. You put your arm around her, turn to her and smile. You start talking to her while totally ignoring him.

2. He keeps talking. You look at him, make sure that you look quite annoyed. You look in his eyes, 2-3 seconds. Then you move your eyes slowly to the right, say 3 feet away from him, and then up, say 3 feet. Wait 3 seconds, then turn towards your girl and say: Hey, I was just thinking, why don't we go to the movies tomorrow, would 5 work for you? Basically you are totally ignoring him, and just paying attention to your girl

3. Most guys would leave you alone. If not, well, he is quite aggressive. If you have to fight, well, you have to fight. Beat the shit out of him, it was his choice, not your.

Agree with TheDoc, if the guy is on drugs that might be a different story.

Anyways, if you lift weights (5x5: 200-300 pounds squats, bench and deadlift) while having decent weight, the aggressor would SEE your muscles and will most likely leave you alone. Meaning situations like this would be avoided 9 out of 10 times, unless the guy is a total idiot or using drugs. With that strength you also have very high probability that you take him down with quite ease, or beat the shit out of him if you have to. Many guys are pussies today, they can't even lift 200 pounds off of the ground and they can only dream about benching that weight. Just a thought...

 

[Thedoctor]

Here is the article that Chase wrote:

https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-b ... situations

It's definitely worth a read.

Just to reiterate what I said to avoid confusion:

1) Fighting is an absolute last resort. Do not engage unless you are forced to.
2) Always be prepared to fight. It will show through in your body language. That doesn't mean you need to puff out your chest, be aggressive or "alpha." The fact that you know that you are prepared to is enough.
3) There's a time for high energy (loud / dominant) and low energy (calm and more passive). My initial advice for Lucifer was based on the fact that he thought this guy was on drugs.
4) The key to avoiding this altogether is to not make yourself seem like a target. This outlined in Chase's article. All you really need is strong fundamentals (move slow, walk with confidence etc.).

-John

 

[lux7]

I think think this really has anything to do with seduction skills or fighting skills or anything like that.

I mean, I don't know where you are exactly but I see this kinda stuff every day downtown and on the subway.
You don't need to "out alpha" some crazy guy or stoner. She already knows the guy is nuts... you're not competing with him for wittiest comeback.

It's relatively uncommon around here.

So not seduction tactics will help you.

Yep, that's why "-outside of pure seduction-" in the title .

Firstly, I am wondering why you guys were an "easy target". Something made him approach you, given you seemed to know beforehand that he would. You were inviting it.

What I said, we "stood out" from the crowd, I didn't look like the kind of guy who would whoop his ass if he tried anything and I could hear him with that same kind of behavior towards bystanders from behind, then I could hear him moving towards us, an area where there were just us he could "pick on".
You put 2 and 2 together and.. You just know chances are that it might happen, believe me I didn't throw any sweet eye to pull him in my direction .

Secondly, when you meet crazies there's a few simple steps... you ignore, if they persist you ask them to leave, if they still persist, YOU leave.
Don't confuse this with being "BETA" or any of that shit PUAs masturbate over. You are PROTECTING your girl and that's all that matters, that SHE did not have to talk to the guy, engage the guy or be near the guy. She at all times, stand BETWEEN her and whatever the threat is... and you move her in the opposite direction. That's it end of story.

Don't get into shouting matches with stoners and junkies. Don't start fights you can't win, actually don't start any where you don't need.
Show your girl that this is just some loser, he's not worth your time and you are a capable grown ass man who will keep her safe when with you.

That's all there is.

 

[MisterX]

Lucifer, you need to know how to fight. You never know what will happen.

That guy might punch you and leave you in a wheel chair, or take out a knife and stab you. It can be in 20 years when you have a family and kids. You never know so you must be prepared as a man. You might never need to use it but just t be sure do it.

My best advice is to go learn Krav Maga, that's what I practice. It's one of the only martial arts that are actually useful. None of that karate/kung fu/boxing/mma BS. None of that will help you if s guy comes to you with a knife and intent to murder you. In Krav Maga you're beaten a lot during training and you learn about life and death fighting like : defending agains guns/knifes, fighting against 5-10 people. And it's efficient no fancy moves etc, a guy takes a swing you brake his hand at the elbow and knee him in the face till he passes out.

And btw that's the thing with fight you never know if the guy has intent ot kill you or not. You never know if he has a gun or a knife or sth else. So you must always be prepared to fight even if you don't want to.

And don't go buying a gun or carrying a knife. Unless you are perfectly okay with murdering someone never carry such a weapon, cause it can and will be used on you.


The biggest thing is lots of people don't realise how dangerous a fight can be. I think oh he just will punch me once and go but you never know if he's on cocaine, in a rage, or a psychopath.



And that's kinda of a problem for me, cause I have problems with anger. I mean I'm usually very calm but if someone gets in my face and starts screaming and threatening me or someone I'm with I'll beat him to a pulp. And I always carry a spyderco with a serrated blade just in case of a fina resort, and 1 or 2 of those metal foldable baton like the police carry. Cause you can beet a guy till he can't stand but not stab or shoot him so you won't go to jail. But I don't want to use the knife cause I know if push comes to shove I have what it takes to kill the guy but I'm not going to jail because of some asshole. The knife is more for last resort if it's really life or death or if a stray dog attacks me.

I actually had problems with the police a few years back because guy was in my face and screaming threats and I beat him to the ground with knees and elbows to the head, but luckily in my country video footage from hidden cameras that don't have a sign announcing their existence cannot be evidence.

I'm not a violent guy but I just flip in such situations and escalate things pretty quickly. I don't know if I'm with a girl at night on some street, I'd probably tell her to run away while I take care of the guy.



So to recap I don't know how to help you prevent it, other than looking scarier (if a guy sees you a sees that you can beat him senseless or kill him he won't mess with you, most people look for an easy pray, even serial killers look for weak young men, or women, or kids). But my honest advice is to sign up for Krav Maga and learn how to defend you self and your girl.
As I said you might get attacked in 20-30 years while you're out with your wife and kids and you'd regret if forever that you could not defend them.
Violence might not be good but it's necessary in some cases if the other guy leaves you no choice.

 

[someone]

Krav Maga looks cool, but I'm not a believer. I think that if you're going to learn to fight then you should go with one of the proven disciplines (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai). I have yet to see a Krav Maga guy win inside a top-tier MMA ring. Also, the Israeli commandos who got their asses kicked on that civilian ship which was ferrying supplies through a blockade to Palestinians a few years ago seems to be a good demonstration that their hand-to-hand combat training is not perfect.

 

[MisterX]

Krav Maga looks cool, but I'm not a believer. I think that if you're going to learn to fight then you should go with one of the proven disciplines (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai). I have yet to see a Krav Maga guy win inside a top-tier MMA ring. Also, the Israeli commandos who got their asses kicked on that civilian ship which was ferrying supplies through a blockade to Palestinians a few years ago seems to be a good demonstration that their hand-to-hand combat training is not perfect.

First Krav Maga cannot be used in MMA because Krav Maga teaches you to kill your opponent fast. The most used moves are poking our the eyes to blind the other guy, knees in the balls and then finishing with a series of blows to the head, crushing the throat to suffocate the other guy, slicing the throat with a knife or stabbing the heart.

Boxing, BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, are sports that are meant to be amusing to watch but have little effectiveness in actual battle. Do you think that the army, marines, seals, box on the battle field? Boxing teached you to fight for long periods of time, etc. Krav Maga and other are created for actual battle.


So the only effective ones are those that were created with the sole purpose of murdering people. Those that are used in wars by soldiers, it's just that Krav Maga is one that is available for people to learn. I bet you if you put 10 MMA fighters or boxers vs 10 army soldiers/spetsnaz, the mma/boxers will be dead in seconds, shot to death or stabbed to death or both.


You watch a lot of TV and those fights on the ring are pure sport with rules. And this does not work on the stree where the other guy has no rules has a knife or a gun and has intent to kill.



And the example of the ship is moronic. Sorry but it is. I can literally find you thousands of cases of police oficers/marines/soldiers/not to mention boxers/MMA fighters etc being beaten/killed/etc. Does that mean that they should remove all army and insted let a bunch of sport fighters go fight wars? How good do you think a MMA fighter would be agains a goup of trained army soldiers or terrorist? I doubt he would be able to punch his way out.




Remember those fighting styles you watch on the ring are created to look amusing as a sport not as a means do defend youself.

You can be as good a boxer as you want when I come close to you full body contact and pull out my knife and start stabbing you prison rush shanking style no fancy moves will save you.


Just think about it for a moment

 

[someone]

Boxing, BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, are sports that are meant to be amusing to watch but have little effectiveness in actual battle. Do you think that the army, marines, seals, box on the battle field? Boxing teached you to fight for long periods of time, etc. Krav Maga and other are created for actual battle.

So the only effective ones are those that were created with the sole purpose of murdering people. Those that are used in wars by soldiers, it's just that Krav Maga is one that is available for people to learn. I bet you if you put 10 MMA fighters or boxers vs 10 army soldiers/spetsnaz, the mma/boxers will be dead in seconds, shot to death or stabbed to death or both.

You watch a lot of TV and those fights on the ring are pure sport with rules. And this does not work on the stree where the other guy has no rules has a knife or a gun and has intent to kill.

And the example of the ship is moronic. Sorry but it is. I can literally find you thousands of cases of police oficers/marines/soldiers/not to mention boxers/MMA fighters etc being beaten/killed/etc. Does that mean that they should remove all army and insted let a bunch of sport fighters go fight wars? How good do you think a MMA fighter would be agains a goup of trained army soldiers or terrorist? I doubt he would be able to punch his way out.

Remember those fighting styles you watch on the ring are created to look amusing as a sport not as a means do defend youself.

You can be as good a boxer as you want when I come close to you full body contact and pull out my knife and start stabbing you prison rush shanking style no fancy moves will save you.

Just think about it for a moment

The important thing is this, a man should know how to defend himself, and he should have the inner strength to do so. How he learns that is a moot point, because what's important is the courage and strength required of a man to be willing to die to defend those he loves. A man who has that innate ability will show that in everything they do as they will demonstrate a fearlessness and courageousness that few modern people possess.

 

[MisterX]

The important thing is this, a man should know how to defend himself, and he should have the inner strength to do so. How he learns that is a moot point, because what's important is the courage and strength required of a man to be willing to die to defend those he loves. A man who has that innate ability will show that in everything they do as they will demonstrate a fearlessness and courageousness that few modern people possess.

Basically yes. Thats one of the thing that a man must do - protect those he cares about.

 

[lux7]

I don't see anything wrong with what you did.

The engaging/disengaging I felt was a bit of an insecure flip-flop.
Plus the fact my girl talked and I didn't say anything.. It felt a bit like I wasn't taking the lead.

Remain non-reactive, don't get upset or angry. Once he leaves you can simply shrug your shoulders and tell to your girl: That was weird, or Some people are just weird/high. Then don't talk about it.

The whole interaction might have been much easier if you put or had your arm around her when he started to acting out.

I'd avoid any fights. When he says "Say something nice and I will leave", I would just perhaps smile at him, look at him - and say nothing. Or just totally ignore him, but don't look to the ground (that is submission). Look to the sides, or even better - to the side and slightly above him.

Or instead of paying attention to him, pay attention to your girl. Start talking about something, ask her questions so she has to answer you, switch the subject to something that is not related to him.

Something like this:

1. You sit with your girl, some asshole shows up. He starts talking. You put your arm around her, turn to her and smile. You start talking to her while totally ignoring him.

2. He keeps talking. You look at him, make sure that you look quite annoyed. You look in his eyes, 2-3 seconds. Then you move your eyes slowly to the right, say 3 feet away from him, and then up, say 3 feet. Wait 3 seconds, then turn towards your girl and say: Hey, I was just thinking, why don't we go to the movies tomorrow, would 5 work for you? Basically you are totally ignoring him, and just paying attention to your girl

3. Most guys would leave you alone. If not, well, he is quite aggressive. If you have to fight, well, you have to fight. Beat the shit out of him, it was his choice, not your.

Agree with TheDoc, if the guy is on drugs that might be a different story.

Anyways, if you lift weights (5x5: 200-300 pounds squats, bench and deadlift) while having decent weight, the aggressor would SEE your muscles and will most likely leave you alone. Meaning situations like this would be avoided 9 out of 10 times, unless the guy is a total idiot or using drugs. With that strength you also have very high probability that you take him down with quite ease, or beat the shit out of him if you have to. Many guys are pussies today, they can't even lift 200 pounds off of the ground and they can only dream about benching that weight. Just a thought...

True, that might have been a good move.
On the talking with the girl, it might be a bit tough to pull it off as it's not easy ignoring a very loud stranger standing in front of you.