Diagnosis needed: Socialising for 20 years but I still struggle with small talk

[JollyRoger]

I need a diagnosis and would be grateful for any help. Especially anything that's applicable to night time / bar environments. I have a wide range of reference experiences and theoretical knowledge but somehow there is still something missing at the foundation which occasionally causes me to 'fall apart'. (Or is it just a belief/feeling?)

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Short background: I'm in my early 40s, got in the game 20 years ago. Started from a very, very low place. Learned to become better at socialising... (not a master, just better than I was). Since then I've had 50+ lays, ONS's, SDL's from day time and night times, STRs and LTRs but currently single. Lots of experiences that I would never have dreamed of as a kid and yet...

Meanwhile during my journey I've read and practiced pretty much every method that's ever existed, I could write a history of the PU scene since the early 2000s. Those that resonated with me most and that gave me the best results include: 60 Years of Challenge, Captain Jack, Juggler, Vin Di Carlo. I really like Chase's evolution of Vin's compliance methods but I haven't properly practiced it myself yet. I'm currently also looking at Alex' (former RSD) conversational material.

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So what's the issue? Well after all this time I often still struggle with small talk. It seems to happen most often 'mid-set' or with people that are acquaintances (people that I've met 1 to 5 times). I'm ok with people that I've known for years, especially in one on one situations (drinks, restaurant, hanging out etc) and funnily enough during the early stage of cold approaches (day or night) as we're getting to know each other. But when the conversation goes beyond those first couple of minutes, or when I'm rotating through sets in a bar and I come back again, or as I mentioned acquaintances that I've only met a handful of times. Suddenly I'll "run out of things to say'".

Even though I know all the theory:

Lower the bar for what you think is acceptable to say.
Entertain yourself.
Make statements or observations.
Ask questions that require compliance.
Have curious frame of mind about who you are talking to.
Don't try to impress but express.
Don't worry about the content, focus on the emotion and delivery.

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Here's an example of two interactions I had tonight. One with extended social circle, the other cold approach.

1. I'm standing around a small round table in a busy bar with music. 4 (men and women) I've met once or twice before, one friend I've known for a couple of months and can speak to easily about our shared interests and one attractive girl. I'm standing next to the girl. There's a moment of silence on our side of the table. This is my chance to 'do something'. My mind goes blank, my mind races. Then...

I turn to her and say with a smile: "Tell me a joke"
She smiles back and says she can't think of anything.
I tell her a lame joke.
She tells me it's lame (with a smile) and I do an exaggerated back turn, walk way to pretend I'm hurt.
She tells me she's too sad to laugh. It's a strange situation where she is outwardly in party mood (mentioning her strong drink) but it seems in order to distract herself from something.
I wonder aloud what would make her happy, perhaps swimming with the dolphins and other ridiculous things.
There's some other banter which I can't quite remember... but then it ends... and I get the sudden fear that I'm no longer entertaining.
Although the girl is very attractive my goal wasn't necessarily to escalate, rather I just wanted to continue the fun vibe and build my value within the social circle.

The friend and the girl start talking, but it's loud so I can't quite hear what's going on. But he grabs and holds her attention.

2. Later I re-open two girls I've spoken to earlier in the evening. They are happy to see me and we banter about their creative project and how we are going to team up. But in my mind the tone of the conversation shifts to where I feel like I'm subservient to them... even though it's just banter. That gets in my head and I feel like we are going over the same threads, I try to shift to something 'deeper' which kinds of works but it doesn't feel right for Friday night at the bar (I want to avoid going deep), things stall and I make my excuses to get a drink. I wonder if I should have escalate verbally/physically with one of these two, unlike the previous interaction these two aren't part of my extended social circle.

Some other notes:

As I mentioned this issue affects me with both genders.

I feel comfortable with attractive women, I can hold good eye contact, move close, touch etc.

Although I believe I'm comfortable with talking about sex, I find it challenging to introduce it smoothly (or does that mean I am in fact not comfortable with it?).

Example from tonight, I had a stamp on my hand and compared it to a girl, I said hers looked better and joked that mine looked like a limp dick. She laughed.

Another example, a couple of days ago I was hanging out with two female friends I walk up to them as they're smoking a cigarette and they ask me what my favourite sex position is. I tell them without any shame or akwardness and then ask them what theirs is. I tease them about their choice (missionary).

So as you can see, I've had plenty of reference experience, I'm occasionally quick witted, I lead a fairly interesting life IMO (interesting hobbies, including one 'sexy hobby' where people recognise my expertise, I've travelled all over the world, read a variety of books, am comfortable with my sexuality and kinks).

But something I felt ever since I was a kid, and it seems still to this day is that other people must be having more interesting conversations than me. I watch people talking and talking from afar and I wish I could listen in. What could an attractive woman and a random guy possibly be talking about after having just met in a bar? (Seriously I wish I could listen to a full pick up in a bar from start to finish, not just for the Super Special Techniques TM but for the small talk in between). During the COVID lockdowns I was forced to share a house with my cousin and his girlfriend which answered so many questions for me about how another couple lives day to day.

LOGICALLY it must be similar to the conversations I have with people when we can't stop talking. But that doesn't translate to how I FEEL about it or myself. I have this recurring fear that I'm not entertaining enough... even though I should know by now that I should be entertaining myself.

What do you think my issue is? Psychological? Do I still not feel entitled/worthy? Or is it a matter of picking a particular technique, drill or gambit to fall back on? Should I focus on a bigger 'goal' to distract myself (gaining compliance?). Perhaps you have your own advice and insights or maybe you can point me to one of the classic resources that I should revisit and focus on internalising.

Thanks

 

[Chase]

@JollyRoger,

We have a section on Girls Chase devoted to small talk you might find helpful:

Small Talk | Girls Chase

www.girlschase.com

I have a guide to it that is as structured and detailed as can be, here:

Social Skills 101: Engaging People with Small Talk

Small talk serves important social functions in the early conversation. Being good at it enables you to have better, more fluid conversations with those you talk to. In our next installment in the Social Skills 101 series (see Part 1 on why basic social skills are so key here, and Part 2 on...

www.girlschase.com

Just for your examples:

GIRL AT THE BAR:

YOU: Tell me a joke!​

HER: I can't think of anything.​

YOU: Well, yesterday I accidentally sent a naked picture of myself to everyone in my address book. Not only was it embarrassing but it cost a fortune in stamps.​

HER: That's funny. But I'm too sad to laugh.​

YOU: [small talk -- continue the thread but in a light way] Oh I'm sorry. Personal tragedy?​

HER: Yes. Had to put my dog of 12 years down.​

YOU: [small talk -- light sympathy + bonding] Oh that is rough. My family had a dog growing up. She made it to 14. Losing her was like losing a family member.​

HER: Exactly.​

YOU: [small talk -- related but uplifting] Well, let's toast in her memory. What's your dog's name?​

HER: Sadie.​

YOU: To Sadie! [clink glasses]​

At this point, you are going to deep dive. As you noticed, she is not in "party mode." She needs deep connection. With a dead pet you can ask her what her favorite memory with the pet was. That will get her talking about a happy memory. From there you can thread-cut to something related (thread-cutting and thread-amplifying is a tactic from Vin and his old coaching partner. If you're familiar with that, conversation management should be straightforward -- so long as you remember to do it).

GIRLS WITH CREATIVE PROJECT:

YOU: Hey ladies, we meet again!​

GIRLS: Heeey!!​

YOU: How's the creative project going? Are you ready for me to join forces with you?​

GIRLS: Totally ready. What role can we put you in?​

YOU: [crucial moment: how are you going to frame yourself here?] I'm thinking I can be the taskmaster. I've got a whip at home. I'll bring that along. Any time one of you starts slacking, I'll crack my whip and keep you on task.​

GIRLS: [laugh] Oh God I thought you would be doing art or something!​

YOU: You will be doing the art. Unless you want to feel my whip.​

GIRLS: [laugh]​

YOU: [time for a topic change] So how's the night been going since last we spoke? You guys getting plastered? Meet some cool boys?​

GIRLS: The guys here are ALL lame!​

YOU: Surely not ALL of them [point at self].​

GIRLS: You are cool. But all these guys suck.​

YOU: Well, don't worry girls, I am here to save the day [put an arm around each girl].​

GIRLS: We're saved!​

YOU: Hey, how about we grab seats? I saw a good spot over on the couches that side.​

GIRLS: Okay!​

Notice that the goal is never to STAY in small talk.

It is to use small talk as an opportunity to transition to deeper conversation, moving them (to sit/stand somewhere else), etc.

You either stay on-topic and thread-amplify if the topic is still good or the girl obviously wants to talk about it (like the girl bringing up being sad -- clearly she was looking to feel understood), then when the topic is stale you thread-cut to something else.

After a little small talk, move her, deep dive, etc.

Chase

 

[JollyRoger]

Thanks I will look at those articles.

At this point, you are going to deep dive. As you noticed, she is not in "party mode." She needs deep connection. With a dead pet you can ask her what her favorite memory with the pet was. That will get her talking about a happy memory. From there you can thread-cut to something related (thread-cutting and thread-amplifying is a tactic from Vin and his old coaching partner. If you're familiar with that, conversation management should be straightforward -- so long as you remember to do it).

She didn't mention what the reason was and I didn't ask. Not that I don't have empathy or that I don't know how to go deep, rather that I don't want a sad deep vibe to be associated with me, especially on a Friday night at a bar. Moments later some 'shiny object' took her attention (I can't remember what) but the impression I got was that she wasn't looking to go deep. She was out to have fun. I should say that while she's attractive I don't have the immediate desire to get involved with her. I'd rather integrate her into my wider social circle and be a fun, cool guy she knows. I will keep the thread cutting in mind.

Notice that the goal is never to STAY in small talk.

It is to use small talk as an opportunity to transition to deeper conversation, moving them (to sit/stand somewhere else), etc.

You either stay on-topic and thread-amplify if the topic is still good or the girl obviously wants to talk about it (like the girl bringing up being sad -- clearly she was looking to feel understood), then when the topic is stale you thread-cut to something else.

After a little small talk, move her, deep dive, etc.

Chase

But what if I want to stay in small talk? Or should I call it 'vibing' perhaps?

Is that wrong?

For example with the 2 girls, I had that 'blank' moment so I asked one what was important to her about her current project. Which is a value elicitation and for a moment she went inside to answer that question.

Now I'm genuinely interested in what makes people tick, and in another time and place I would happily go deep but in that moment I asked only as a last resort because I wanted to avoid dead space.

I didn't really want to go deep, at a bar on Friday night. Because I felt that at any moment a shiny object could come along and snap her out of that introspective moment. And that's what happened. I can't remember what it was, her friend turned back from the bar, some random guy shouting 'woooo' nearby. But she snapped out of it.

I view small talk / vibing as this island of potentiality from which I can make brief excursions to other vibes: a deep moment, a sexual moment, a connection moment, a tease moment.

If you were there with me and told me that I need to try to attempt to pick up one of those women I think I would have a clearer idea of what to do or attempt. Tease harder, create frames that are conducive to seduction (non judgemental etc). Get close, longer eye contact, bring up sexual topics (although that's a weakness of mine where I often rely on canned material), I'm not saying I would easily succeed but I'd have a clear goal in mind and would attempt to move towards it.

But if you told me the goal is to just vibe and have fun with people.... that feels more challenging. Even though I've taken part in millions(?) of conversations across my life. Whether it's networking for my career or mingling in my social circle I suddenly get struck by the thought / feeling: "I don't know what to do, I don't know how to be".... while my logical brain tells me: "You know this, you need to live in the moment, be expressive, don't pre-judge what comes out of your mouth, be radically acceptant of every thought, feeling, situation"

Perhaps the solution is to focus on 'seducing' every woman... and then not go through with it. That's closer to the vibe I want to have around me. Which is what so many people have said over the years 'flirt' with everybody. Perhaps I didn't truly understand what was meant by that?