Do I "Kiss Up" to Girls?

[Marty]

Someone who knows me very well told me a few months back that she thinks I "kiss up" to girls. Pretty ones, that is.

I don't think I really kiss up to anyone, but I know from reading Chase's articles that "kissing up" to girls can be ineffective or even counterproductive. I don't want to damage my chances as a result of lack of self-awareness, so let me ask for candid feedback from those who have read my field reports: Do I kiss up to girls?

-Marty

 

[trashKENNUT]

Marty,

I don't think it's wrong to want to make things "fairytale" or romantic alike but you should not be more than her or her fantasy.

In a sense, you have to calibrate it or it will make you look, as if, you enjoy it more than her. (i don't know how to put it but it turn some girls, off)

Zac

 

[Casanovelis]

Someone who knows me very well told me a few months back that she thinks I "kiss up" to girls. Pretty ones, that is.

I don't think I really kiss up to anyone, but I know from reading Chase's articles that "kissing up" to girls can be ineffective or even counterproductive. I don't want to damage my chances as a result of lack of self-awareness, so let me ask for candid feedback from those who have read my field reports: Do I kiss up to girls?

-Marty

The articles also said not to take dating advice from women

Marty: I wanted to tell you—back there—that your city photo would've looked much nicer with you in it on your yellow bicycle. But you sped off before I could open my mouth! I'm so glad you stopped again; I'd never have been able to catch up otherwise.

MadisonAvenue: Oh! Hahahahaha!

Peals of celestial laughter from Aphrodite at the discomfiture of this starstruck mortal.

You seem to be a romantic/sentimental/nice character. I have a bit of that in me too. I loved the Greco-Roman mythological references in your post. I just bought a hardcover copy of "Bulfinch's Mythology" because I wanted to better understand it when reading the literary greats. Bulfinch contends that if anything it enriches our lives. There are many lessons about our own humanity in those old Pagan stories.

The tone of your speech may come off somewhat "kissing up." It certainly didn't come off with the law of least effort.

It may not be a pervasive problem, but I would recommend experimenting. Really no man should ever get comfortable even if he has a method that is tried and true. Why not try something to just see how it goes? Sometimes I will try something even though I know it probably won't work just to see the reaction.

Certainly don't lose your romantic feelings towards the world, just modify and experiment on how you come off to women and see how it goes. That is the only certain way to find out if there is any truth in it.

 

[Gentle_Phrases]

Hey Marty,

Slight tangent
Isn't it weird how self-improvement can make you so unhappy/anxious? I wonder how many other guys out there are willing to look at themselves as candidly as some of us do. I twist and turn at night sometimes, trying to figure out why I'm not irresistible

so let me ask for candid feedback from those who have read my field reports: Do I kiss up to girls? Pretty ones, that is.

I feel your pain, bro. I've gotten some feedback from women that's made my blood pressure rise. We've all got egg on our faces man. Now that she's brought your attention to a potential problem, you can scan for it.

Remember your field report Madison Avenue? Here's a quote from you:

Here's another straight number-close, but I want to document it, because (a) the circumstances are entertaining and (b) I'm wondering what to do next. The girl is of exceptionally high value, but I fear I've blown it.

A quote from Problem Solving:

I don't know if you know anything about Push-Pull and how it relates to attraction, but what I notice about this approach is that it is VERY heavy on the Pull. Pull refers to giving her value (pulling her toward you), while Push refers to taking a bit of it away (Pushing her away). Like we know in this game, everything is about balance: too much Push and she auto-rejects because you're a jerk and not attainable, too much Pull and you're a low value nice guy who is too attainable because nobody wants him.

Your response:

I've obviously encountered the "Push-Pull" terminology several times on this site, not sure how much I want to "Push" away a girl of such obvious quality, though. Not sure I really understand the principle behind it, either.

His response:

Girls want guys that are a little above them in value, not below them. When you do nothing but pump a girl's value, she has no other choice but to think that she is above you and if she thinks she's above you in value, you get dumped in the Friends bin. Challenging, teasing, Bored Looks, and Scarcity all Push girls away a little bit, but it prompts them to work for your attention and affection which increases your value.

Someone who knows me very well told me a few months back that she thinks I "kiss up" to girls. Pretty ones, that is.

It's always the people you know the best that know exactly what to say to make you scream. Another quote from you:

Right, I need to research this Push-Pull thing because frankly I don't quite get why she needs Pushing. Curious to find out.

Maybe your friend here doesn't sense that you do enough "pushing" with girls so it creates the impression that you "pull" (a.k.a. "suck up") MORE than you actually do. So maybe she's suggesting the same thing that ProblemSolving is, which is that you tease and challenge women more, despite the risk of auto-rejection. Ever playfully tease a girl so much she calls you an asshole and means it?

 

[trashKENNUT]

Marty,

I have an idea. Have the mindset of bringing girls back for a wrestling match with them in the bedroom. It's abit retarded, i know. (and probably funny i guess)

But It loosens up the romantic side of you and puts you in a place where you bring "togetherness", a tag team. You using your own energy of romanticism while doing a somewhat "Bonnie and Clyde" thing. This doesn't deviate from who you are but it also doesn't put too much emphasis on what is not working, which is the excessive romanticism. Influencing a "Tag team" kind of couple.

As someone noted, Experimentation My thoughts.

Zac

 

[Estate]

Marty,

He could mean that in many ways... here's an example of someone I know. Not sure if it applies.

A mutual acquaintance that I end up drinking in the same circles with quite often, is what I would consider to be "kissing up to girls". Now, the thing is, he's a decent looking guy with descent social skills. But the things that comes across to everyone is that he does focus TOO much attention on the attractive girls in our circle.

i.e. I call him an acquaintance because he really hasn't spent much time hanging with the guys in the group, he almost ignored any girls who he doesn't perceive to be hot enough and seems to dote and spend all his time on the hot girls. Not that that's bad fro a pick-up perspective. But since you mentioned a friend said it, is it someone who runs in the same circle as you and sees you chatting to the hotter women a lot?

Sometimes in social game, you want to be equally friendly with everyone. In a way it makes you appear more attractive to the hot women, they see you are just an already great guy. But if you focus all your attention on the hot girls... like my friend, the guys in the group are turned off a little as this is just one guy they can't click with, the not so hot girls don't like all the attention clearly been given to other girls because it makes them feel less attractive and the hot ones... well, they might appear to lap up the attention but often behind the guys back they know what he's like, they'll be pleasant to him but see how he's acting. Now if this group is REALLY a set of friends, you need to befriend everyone. If you're really just gaming them to get the hot girl, you do still need to use them as pivots and not ignore them.

I don't know if this has anything to do with your case, but in a group setting, are you often spending more time with the more attractive girls or giving them more attention?

 

[Marty]

Thanks fellas! Delighted to get your responses.

Estate, no it's not a social-circle thing, I know what you mean and that does look dreadful I agree. I don't do that, I like to behave one way in public and quite another when alone together, so as to communicate discretion. This was more if I offer to take two girls' photos when they are tourists, for example, in an effort to get into conversation with them, or compliment girls lavishly whom I've never met before. I guess it is "kissing up", yeah.

Have the mindset of bringing girls back for a wrestling match with them in the bedroom.

Zac, you crack me up But it's a beautiful image! Playfully teasing and fighting each other all the way to the bedroom, where the gentle hitting continues as the clothes come off and it turns into an all-out brawl Count me in!

Maybe your friend here doesn't sense that you do enough "pushing" with girls so it creates the impression that you "pull" (a.k.a. "suck up") MORE than you actually do.

Haha, yes I think you're right! Reminds me of when I was in university, back in 1997 or so, and I was sitting next to a girl in Russian class who just drove me crazy. I leaned over and remarked: "You have such beautiful handwriting!", not knowing that the (female) professor was standing right behind us. The professor commented disgustedly: "Ah, you're just sucking up!" And she was right.

Ever playfully tease a girl so much she calls you an asshole and means it?

Er, no. Good point. I was actually struggling to think of a time I ever playfully teased a cute girl—at all. I did it with LegallyMILF, but I didn't care for her much. And I accidentally did it with CrimeanKitten, by getting her name mixed up and she was convinced I was shitting her (I wasn't). I think I'd never have been able to tease her if I'd had to do it deliberately. It's so hard to do it when I'm very caught up in a girl. I do it with women I'm not attracted to all the time, of course!

The articles also said not to take dating advice from women

Quite right, which is why I've ignored it for a couple months until it popped back into my head because I somehow convinced myself I was kissing up

You seem to be a romantic/sentimental/nice character

Haha, that's putting it mildly

The tone of your speech may come off somewhat "kissing up."

Yeah, everyone keeps picking up on that MadisonAvenue FR so it sounds as if I really laid it on thick that time. It wasn't my intention at all, but per her SMS, even the girl picked up on it! I was just so thrilled in the moment, frankly.

-Marty

 

[TheWiseFool]

By kissing up, do you mean doing and saying what girls "want" you to do, rather than what you should actually do?

If that doesn't make sense, here is an example:
Today, I am at a friends house. A friend of the friend is in the kitchen cooking and I am washing my dish. She randomly says, "Doesn't this food looking like steak?" and points to the food she is cooking. I look at it and think, "What the hell is she talking back... it looks like ground beef... (yes I know steak and ground beef come from the same animal, but the look is different in terms of the context of the situation)." So I say what I think and she tries to explain but I'm continue to disagree even though in my head the "right" thing to say is that it does so I dont hurt her feelings. Since I didn't kiss up, she suddenly switches from nice and polite to frowny and disappointed. I'm thinking, "Oh man this isn't good." She begins disagreeing with me and questioning my opinions, but I stood by most of them and threw her a bone (did/said that which sought not to offend) whenever I felt I was going too far. You know what happened? I noticed that she started showing signs of attraction and took on a more submissive role and was trying to build rapport rather than what she was previously doing, breaking rapport.

What happened, I thought? Earlier she was being bitchy and catty and now she is agreeing with me? I think it was because i wasn't "kissing up", placating, or changing my opinion based on an expression such as a frown or a look of annoyance.

In terms of giving certain girls special treatment vs others, I think there is a balance to be had here. If a girl who you are interested in notices that you are treating her in a "special" manner vs "being real" with her than it can lead to a lack of rapport even though you were aiming for it through the idea that, "Maybe she'll think we have a lot in common if we agree on the same things." In the example above, when I realized that the girl was kissing up to me, I felt an instant feeling unattraction because she was acting completely different to how she treats everyone else: teasing, playful, more open. I felt like she was saying things for validation rather than a belief or possessing conviction in what she was saying.

Does this relate to what you mean?

 

[Doctor]

Remember Marty, girls say some crazy shit and often mean something completely different!

For example I had a girl tell me I compliment too much when it clearly wasn't true, how I reacted to it was what she was looking for, simply put; it was a test. I will paraphrase below because it was a couple of days ago but just prior to me saying this she had told me I had a hot body and we were flirting really heavily (if we had been alone no doubt I would have escalated quickly).

Me: So Annabell, is there anything else to you besides being incredibly hot?
Her: Oh, another compliment, you compliment too much, you know they don't do much for me right?
Me: Aw damn! My game lies in tatters all over the floor right now, devastated!
Me: So what do you want to do tomorrow? Do you prefer walks on the beach or strolls in the park?

I finished that conversation with a date secured and by saying to her "Bye beautiful (another compliment!)" with a cheeky grin and a wink for good measure.

So if you hear a girl say you do X too much or anything similar what you need to do is show you're not bothered (fake being devastated like I did if you like) then keep doing EXACTLY what you were doing before. Yes when you get home after the interaction then consider if maybe she does have a point but 9 times out of 10 I have found that they are talking bollocks and you aren't 'kissing up' or complimenting too much because, believe it or not, EVERYONE likes compliments (be sure to balance it with some push as well though, like TheWiseFool said). What they are doing is testing you to see if you are weak willed or insecure, if you are you will apologise or change your behaviour for them.

So the one thing you should NOT do is change your behaviour or apologise. If you do that you failed her test goodbye attraction.

I would read your specific situation a bit differently (as it seems to be social circle) however I still wouldn't take what she says at face value.

If a straight girl I had known for a while told me I kiss up to pretty girls too much then I would hear her saying "You kiss up to other girls too much, do you not think I am pretty too? Where is my attention?". If a guy (or lesbian) friend had said it to me then I would probably be inclined to believe him/her. If you don't think you kiss up too much then I would definitely be inclined to believe your own reading of the situation over a girl who is probably just looking for validation from you.

Hope this gives you another perspective, but yeah, this is why we can't take dating advice from women!

-Doctor