DO NOT RUN GAME, BE CHILL. [MASSIVE POST]

[fpt2k14]

There's this on-going thought on the seduction community that you HAVE to run game in order to get laid. Honestly, "running game" will not get you laid. Why? E-z. Running game stems from a needy mindset. A mindset that you as a man are not complete. That you need to do something in order to get the girl. Doesn't align with the values and nature of being a man. I'm sure Chase touched on this subject but I wanted to expand on it with my own 2 cents anyhow.
To make girls chase you, you have to do nothing. Be fucking chill. Let her do the work. If you're constantly touching and groping her because you feel the need to "make her attracted to you" you're going to fucking blow it. WOMEN ARE ALREADY ATTRACTED TO YOU FOR BEING A MAN.

Let me put it in fucking perspective. Do women do anything to make you like them? NO. You like them because they're women. You're attracted to her because she shows signs of fertility (i.e. curves, boobs, sensual walk) so as a man your only job to have women crawling at your feet is hitting her biological agenda for men - that you can protect her (be grounded, unreactive, be strong, not be a pussy, handle tension), that you can provide for her (don't be a fucking bum or live with your mom) and you can procreate with her (i.e. a working penis with functioning sperm). These are very general definitions but you can start to see what I mean.

The heart of it is...YOU ALREADY ARE ENOUGH. DO NO TRY TO "GAME" HER.

On being chill. Women's attraction knob turns slowly. Men's attraction is an on/off switch. In order to get in her pants all you have to do is be there and listen to her. Deep-dive her. Make an actual genuine connection. Lead her to your bedroom, escalate sexually and fuck her. WOMEN WANNA FUCK COOL DUDES. As long as you're cool, she will be more than glad to fuck your brains out. Don't be a needy bitch, nothing dries up the vagina faster than supplication. The only thing you should worry about is logistics. And with that, I leave you. PEACE OUT FUCKERS.

 

[Smith]

Hey fpt2k14,

A lot of good points here, but I feel that beginners may get lost when they read this.
I think you mean don't overgame and just be chill? That's the general vibe I get from reading LR and watching videos of good seducers. They don't do anything too fancy, yet they still run a bit of game. It's very smooth that it just doesn't feel like game to them any more and also to the viewers. Hence people say they're 'naturals'. They have integrated with it and become the 'game'. They are the 'game'. They are some real naturals out there, but if a PUA/seducer looks natural, it's because he has integrated with it. He still had to learn game when he was starting out. So before you write off learning game as unnecessary, we all have to start somewhere. Pick up is a map, not the territory. It's needy if you don't use it right, but It's a stepping stone to become the best version of yourself. Actually, I would say the PUA word 'game' just means "learn how to talk and flirt with women", which is what GC is about, i.e deep diving, flirting, creating emotional connection...etc. And you're absolutely right, every guy should feel that they're enough at whatever stage they're at on their journey, and as Owen from RSD put it. "Right now, you're awesome, and you're on your way to become more awesome".

- Smith

 

[Nova]

I see lots of these types of posts on this board. I think one of the things that needs clearing up when somebody tells others that they don't need 'game' is how they are actually defining 'game'.

So tell me, if you can, without contradicting yourself, what specifically are you referring to when you mention 'game' ? What is 'game' to you? Because to me it is just all the small things you do to improve your odds of success with women.

 

[fpt2k14]

This post is geared more towards intermediates which is what I consider myself right now. I'm past the 'gaming' stage and more to the advanced/natural stage.

When I say don't "game" I mean don't grab girls or touch them unnecessarily just to show you can be 'physical' rather I touch them when necessary like to lead her places or escalate. I don't make out with them anymore unless I'm escalating sexually. I don't say funny/asshole remarks for push/pull. There's a lot of shit that goes into 'game' that as a beginner you must do because you know jack shit about women. Like saying direct sexual statements and shit.

Nowadays I meet women through situational openers, have normal conversations and let my fundamentals do the work. It works. And that's what I meant by being chill. To just be there with the girl and let our emotional connection and man/woman polarization seduce her. Let nature do its work. I hope that clarifies it somewhat.

 

[Drck]

Very good post, I believe the same, and I am also guilty of overgaming. A guy just needs "a little bit", meaning he needs to show some interest and he needs to lead. Girls are already attracted to guys/men, but the attraction itself doesn't get you laid.

But again, beginners can't really understand, many of them are already attractive, cool and chill, yet there is still a lof of obstackles with girls. I guess it is just a progress and only once you go through it it will make sense...

 

[fpt2k14]

Very good post, I believe the same, and I am also guilty of overgaming. A guy just needs "a little bit", meaning he needs to show some interest and he needs to lead. Girls are already attracted to guys/men, but the attraction itself doesn't get you laid.

But again, beginners can't really understand, many of them are already attractive, cool and chill, yet there is still a lof of obstackles with girls. I guess it is just a progress and only once you go through it it will make sense...

Amen!

 

[Nova]

I can understand what you saying to a point vis-a-vis as you reach an advanced stage you need less game, but I would interpret this more as being 'game' becomes subconscious. You are still escalating with girls, touching them at the right moments, talking to them in a way that they can understand, moving things forward effectively, creating tension etc, you are still ultimately 'gaming' albeit at an unconscious level, these things you are doing that you know to be an effective way of getting x girl into you bed have become apart of who you are, they have become second nature, you don't really have to think all that much, but you are still doing them. Your not just going up to a girl and talking any random shit or acting in anyway you feel because you know that would yield inconsistent results, instead you have a tried and tested process that you have ingrained into your brain through repetition and learning. You are still playing the game though, are you not? Just not consciously.

I dislike the notion that game is wrong entirely and that every guy should just be a man and whatever because that's all anybody needs to do, because for beginners who don't know how to properly respond to a girl in x situation, or how to lead her, or how to plan his logistics, or how balance tension or how to deal with cock-blocks or how to tell when a girl is looking for it, or how to develop smooth body movements, or how to respond to a text in a specific situation or whatever they are not suddenly going to become good with women just because they have been exposed to your epiphany that all any guy has to do is just be a man, it's not as simple as that for you average man. The idea that there is something wrong with actively and consciously looking to analyse your interactions and develop a few strategies to sharpen your results is a bit off.

You can get to that position where you are running every thing pretty much subconsciously by going up to loads and loads of girls until eventually you just naturally come to realise the things that work and the things that don't... or you can actually try learning to analyse you interactions and cutting a few corners by thinking about what you need to do to improve (which is where game comes into play, all these ideas and strategies that you can work to implement straight away versus spend ages waiting to realise for yourself) What is wrong with that, for beginners it is a sure fire way to speed up the learning process.

Go grab a random guy off the street, go into a nightclub with him, give him a pat on the back and tell him 'bro, look at all the pussy here, you can have all of it, all you gotta do is be a man. Be chill, be natural" - You think that man's gonna walk into that club and be swimming in pussy?, fuck is he. Give him a bit of a direction, some specifics, something he can use and he's got something to work with. Getting to the top is a learning process. All 'game' is, is the little or big things that you do consciously or unconsciously to improve you odds. 'Gaming' doesn't suddenly turn you into a needy little bitch, it just gives a beginner a bit of direction

 

[fpt2k14]

Alright, yeah. I understand where you're coming from. I guess 'game' really is the aspects of what makes you attractive to women. This post is coming from a point of view that as you said 'game' has become second nature. I don't think about leading women and creating emotional connections anymore but I did at one point. Now they're a subsconscious process. I believe that as men begin to dig deep within the roots of their masculinity they begin to see that they are complete and that there IS an already attractive man in all of us. All it takes is some unveiling. And that's what I meant to express. Thank you for helping me clarify it.

 

[Drck]

I don't disagree Nova, what you wrote is perfect and true, you are absolutely right. At the same time, there are different ways to look at the same thing.

From certain point of view, getting a girl into a bed is a matter of 'mind set' of that particular guy. You can learn it and practice it until it becomes subconscious as you described, or you can get into that 'mind set' and have the same results.

"just be a Man" has to do a lot with that mind set, but here is the thing that makes a big difference: (1) a guy pretends to act like a man or (2) he is a man. "All you gotta do is be a man" is true, but a guy just can't pretend it, therefore you can't grab a random guy from a street, tell him that and expect that he will become successful. That just won't work.

It is like with talent, you can take a guy and tell him to sing: He will never be able to sing, he has no voice and no talent, he can practice 15 years and he'll be considered just an average. Second guy needs only 5 years of practice, and he will become reasonably good singer. Third guy just grabs a microphone and he can sing pretty much like a pro within couple of months, without much learning. Some things just can't be learned, and some people have better predispositions to be much better at particular things than others.

As fpt2k14 described above, women are already attracted to a guy for being A MAN. They already like that guy, he is already cool, he doesn't chase them, he doesn't game them at all. He is already independent on what girls think of him, he doesn't have to pretend it or learn it. He is already aggressive enough to go after a girl that he likes, he is already dominant and leading enough because he knows exactly what he wants (get laid) and he doesn't care about cock-blockers either. He already expects the girl to want sex because he is horny, therefore he doesn't need to look for any signs of her interest. He already pushes for sex, but at the same time is careful enough because he knows she's just a girl and she needs some time to make up her mind.

The 'mind set' also has to do a lot with hormones. Said simply, if a guy don't have enough adrenaline and testosterone pumping in his veins he just can't have that 'mind set'. He can't really pretend it because he doesn't have the underlying factors that are needed. Some guys already have these hormones that make them more masculine, for example they have different genetics. Others can increase it by say by weight lifting and proper nutrition. It is not really complicated, these hormones simply make a guy more masculine and more horny, and he just have to "keep his desire back" - instead of pushing forward by gaming the girl.

I knew some guys like that personally, and that is all they need, they can beat most sophisticated seducers without having a clue about seduction. From famous people, you can look at Ben Affleck. You can just feel that fucking testosterone pumping and it doesn't have to be action movie. You can read that "don't give a damn" attitude. True, he's an actor, but some things just can't be learned or acted, some things are just "given".

So what I'm trying to say is that this kind of 'mind set' can be learned (assuming that the guy is doing the right masculine things), and once a guy has that kind of mind set he doesn't really have to worry much about seductions. Women will look for him and seduce him, they will offer themselves to him.

Now, you'd think that if this guy learns seduction he must be twice as much efficient. Well, not necessarily, seduction can actually hurt this guy because he would be doing too much - instead of letting girls come to him he'd be pursuing them...

Hope it makes sense, it's not really a disagreement, rather just a different way...

 

[fpt2k14]

Dude, that's so funny. This week I started strength training again and meticulously watching my diet as well as taking cold showers and I recently bedded a new girl so my testosterone is reaching an all-time peak right now. I feel so fucking happy, but at the same time so energetic, competitive and aggressive. This must be what steroids feel like. I'm also so horny that sexual vibes just pour out of me, tonight we had a social event with a sorority and various girls showed signs of extreme sexual excitement (dilated pupils, very attentive, leaning in constantly, very touchy) but I really didn't do anything other than yell and command my brothers the whole time. A week prior I was drinking 4-5 days a week and not accomplishing anything other than passing out at random times and binging on fast food - typical college frat guy behavior and I was very low-energy and not assertive and very 'beta' you could say and I was not even close to getting laid. It's funny you pointed that out because it's a recent discovery of mine. Sweet.

Chase - any take on the subject?

 

[Drck]

Yes, simple weightlifting LESS than 45 mins/day just 3-4 times per week has a HUGE impact on masculinity and therefore on attraction. A guy doesn't have to become champ in power-lifting or a massive bodybuilder but gaining some muscle mass and even some fat has a HUGE impact on attraction. Fuck being ripped, that is for pussies.

Squats, dead lift and bench press (or overhead press). Build yourself to the range of 200-300 pounds. Add some pullups, and that is more than enough, no need to do more. 5x5, 6x8, 5x10 or whatever, but no fucking excuses. I know it's heavy, I know you will sweat, I know your muscles will hurt, I know you may not be able to walk for couple of days after real squatts, and I know you will be looking for thousands of excuses why to avoid the pain and misery. Don't. Just don't be a pussy because every single Beta does exactly that. Beta always finds easy and comfortable ways, and that's why he always gets exactly what he deserves...

Your testosterone and adrenaline will skyrocket, you will grow decent muscles, you will look solid and strong. NO - you will be solid and strong, you will feel better about yourself, and no need to pretend confidence. And if you are not acting like a meathead girls will be all over you...

 

[NarrowJ]

Natural game isn't for everyone. If being yourself hasn't helped you so far, it's not going to help you in the future because you watched a couple YouTube videos and did a few bench presses.

I don't get the whole "just be a man and go to bars and talk to girls and you'll just trip over her foot on accident and fall on top of her and your penis will land inside her vagina!" thing. If you don't know effective ways to create sexual tension, remove / dodge obstacles or the proper way to invite a woman back to your house, and how to be calibrated while escalating physically, then you're just not going to get very far with them on a consistent basis.



J.J.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

I began as a "natural," teaching myself seduction.

I've talked to countless "naturals."


Want to know what we all have in common?

A system.

We just use different languages. For instance, the best player I've personally met ran a style that oscillated between thug and clown. All it LOOKED like he was doing is having the fundamentals of a "tough guy," was always very "real" with people, and threw out a few jokes and girls were all over him, and men respect him.

But he had a system; he often adopted a very high-pitch, wide-eyed demeanor when he'd joke with people, to prevent his jokes from sending people into auto-rejection. This very specific demeanor came out of him like fucking clockwork.

After he recognized that I knew what I was talking about, he opened up and began spilling his strategies. Instead of the word "frames," he said "me and you aren't really that different, except we tell girls different things; all they know about you is what you tell them." Instead of Law of Least Effort and mystery, he said "so, you know how curious you are about who I'm fucking and my game? Yeah, girls are 10x more curious than you are. And they like that."

We're all pussy programmers; some of us use Pussy++, some of us prefer SnatchRuby or Objective-C(unt).

Different languages, man. GC and the pickup community gives us a standard language to write in, so we can all quickly communicate without ambiguity. And until you get a Ph.D in pussy, I'd suggest not trying to develop your own language.

- Anatman

 

[Drck]

"If you don't know effective ways to create sexual tension"
>> There is already plenty of sexual tension between you as a guy and her as a girl. It is totally natural, it works like that for millions of years, tension between male and female. By good fundamentals you can create much better and more visible attraction, and girls respond well to that

"remove obstacles"
>> The only obstacle is many times only that particular guy's mind. Say he likes her and she likes him. OK, obviously something else needs to be done, and it is usually the guy who should be in charge in leading her to his place. But it doesn't have to be that way. If there is plenty of sexual tension (good fundamentals) and the guy is remaining aloof (doesn't do a damn thing), SHE WILL many times start moving things herself. She will start suggesting places to go and things to do, and depending on her confidence/experience she will eventually invite him to her place (while he does literally noting and remains aloof). DON'T BELIEVE ME, don't believe anyone on this forum - simply try yourself and you'll see. Listen to what she is suggesting, you will find out that she is talking about place where you and her can be together, alone. And then act upon it.

"physical escalation"
>> Pretty much the same. Many times or most of the times she will actually initiate touching the guy herself. Of course the guy has to touch back otherwise she is gone, but again - it is her who initiates. Again, don't believe me, just strike a conversation with a girl that seems to like you. SHE WILL touch you within several minutes. Touch back.

"System"
>> Of course there is a "system". A guy has to talk to the girl and she has to talk back, meaning she's also got to be interested. Most species talk by body language only, we people have the advantage of speech, thus our "talking" is 90% of body language and 10% of speech. Again, don't believe me, I don't want you to believe me at all. Just go out and try to express with your body language that you want to fuck, without saying one word to that girl. She will know right away what you want, no words are needed. If she is interested, SHE WILL respond to you by getting closer to you, by making it easy for you to talk to her.

As a part of "the system", the guy and the girl of course have to like each other, meaning there has to be some level of attraction. They have to touch each other because sex is physical, and they have to get to some place where they can fuck. That is the whole fucking system that has been working for millions of years between some 100 millions of species. "The system" was created by mother Nature 3.5 billions of years ago, it doesn't really matter how you call it but it is already there. A guy who asks a girl for number is learning "the system", he is simply expressing his "talk" to the girl. A guy who is inviting her out and touching her is just doing "the system". He is simply expressing the "attraction" and "touch". A guy who is trying to get the girl to his place is just following "the system". What is he basically saying is: Let's fuck, here is a good place. The system is already there, it doesn't have to be re-discovered...

"Law of least effort"
>> is just a clever description of not doing more than you as a guy have to, which is pretty much what fpt2k14 wrote. You don't really even have to "game" that girl, that is what the law says. It is not really any "law" per se, billions of people were fucking for tens of thousands of years without knowing or following such "law"...
All that "Law of least effort" says is: KEEP IT FUCKING SIMPLE. That is what it exactly says, meaning there is no need to do any complicated and sophisticated things to get the girl to the bed, and you don't even need any "game".

All you need is to follow the system: Generate decent Attraction (fundamentals) > talk to the girl by body language and words > physically touch her > and finally fuck... If you don't do that, she will be gone because you will lose any sexual value in her eyes...

Many times a guy can't see it in his behavior, but it is much easier to see it on others. I wrote it already before, I was sitting next to a guy who tried to "game" a girl. Talking sex, moving swiftly, being sexy and so on. She was amused by his skills, she really liked it, she was responding and playing "his game" - but all he really had to do is to talk little bit and then invite her to his place. He wasted all his effort on his seduction skills, he was feeling good as a good seducer, but at the end he didn't invite her. He failed the system by not attempting to get her to his place. I didn't say anything, was just sitting there. Once he left, she just turned towards me and said: If you want to fuck me all you have to do is to invite me...

See, as a gamer/seducer you are basically pushing things forward. You are in charge, you are organizing, you are leading. Which is not bad at all, it works great and you can have lots of success. But there is another way. You don't push anything forward, you are just laid back and basically you just LET HER do everything (you still of course have to follow "the system", meaning attract > talk > touch > fuck). That's what's so good on the original post. As a matter of fact, if you do everything right and just stop rigt BEFORE fucking - SHE WILL beg you to fuck her. Don't believe me at all, try it ...

 

[NarrowJ]

It's like anything else that can be learned.

I can't fix my car just by "having the right mindset". Sure, I can try a bunch of different things until something works. But, why not learn it from experienced, knowledgeable people, as opposed to just throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks?

As far as waiting for women to take the lead, it is not in their biology to do that.


J.J.

 

[fpt2k14]

Dudes, you guys took this way differently than I was writing it to be. This was more of a mental note, than my "attraction system" or whatever the fuck you guys call it. I wrote this post to solidify it in my head not to overgame and just be natural.

A lot of times I find myself whispering shit into women's ear, mis-calibrating physical touch and running a bunch of 'techniques' because I feel the need to create attraction. This was a mental note to myself to let women chase me and lead as I feel, escalate when it is correct and let biology do its work.

With that said, stop blabbering like high school girls.

Also @Anatman, huge fan. You make me laugh.

 

[NarrowJ]

With that said, stop blabbering like high school girls.

Haha, I am sure this is mainly directed at me. It's just a topic that has been rehashed again and again, especially as of recent. Franco actually explained the "natural approach vs. cognitive approach" argument extremely well in this post here.

The problem that I have with the "natural approach" is that 95% of men aren't naturally good with women. What natural means, is that you're operating from auto-pilot as opposed to being completely cognitive of what you're doing when you are in a social setting or talking to a woman.

Guys who aspire to be "natural" say things like "DO NOT RUN GAME" but then proceed to tell me things like:

• Just be chill - (i.e., be socially calibrated, which is part of "game")
• Have good fundamentals - (this is taught on the site here, it's part of "running game", or whatever you choose to call it)
• Don't touch girls when unnecessary, only when appropriate - (this is still "game")
• Wait for the girl to suggest something - (yes, this is called an escalation window... it's still "game")

So you see, like Anatman said, we're all saying the same things: it's just a matter of semantics. We are all "running game".

The biggest thing with approaching game as a natural is that it's not good for when you are still learning (which I think you did acknowledge in your post). I know even now, that when I go into auto-pilot (read: "natural mode") that I revert back to doing things I used to that didn't work and my bad habits tend to crop back up.

I probably wasn't very tactful in my initial response to the topic. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers...


J.J.

 

[fpt2k14]

It wasn't directed at you. It was to everyone. Good point though, but we're just going in circles. We're talking about the same thing with different terms.