Do you think dating is more difficult for men or for women?

[Skills]

Yeah, but this is a bit of backwards rationalization, they might say now it's easier for them because they are on the 1%, but back then, saying that was the only way to improve (aka not being a victim and taking control of your whole damn life). The truth is, difficult only exists when you have to try at all, men are the ones doing the pursuing, women get only to control who they let throught, so I think talking about difficulty like both sides have it the same way, it's just fucking counterproductive, to me.

I think this whole discussion is kinda dumb, because what is "difficult" talking about, really? Achieving what one wants?
Young women are changing their mind with each moon, their whole perseption of themselves and their actions are more dictated by other people them by themselves (of course peer pressure is a thing for men, but it's way, WAY more for women).
My ex says she wants to marry and maybe have kids, just like any other girl, but she seems just happy having sex with me and going on dates with some other "nicer guys" that do friends-like activities with her. I talked about with her today (after a giving her that nice D) and she confessed her ideal world would be just living nearby a bunch of single hot guys and picking one for each day lmao, but she says her friends and family (more like her conservative sister) won't leave her alone, on how she neeeeds a good man that will marry her and love only her and whatnot. And she's almost 30.
Defining what women are trying to achieve is already a bit of a longshot, leave alone defining how hard it would be for them to get that.

Another thing is women don't really need online dating, they are there because they want. There are many ways to meet guys that aren't online, in fact my younger sister never had Instagram or used Tinder that much, and she's deff very attractive (I guess this runs on the family lmao), she just don't want the attention. The girls that are there are doing it because they wanna do it, so saying they are unhappy because they only get attention is maybe a bit deillusional, chances are they don't wanna seem shallow and confess they really love 200 idiots running after them at a time. I mean, wouldn't you like? There's a lot of girls that are on Tinder just to get Instagram followers or money. Are they having a hard time? What consists of "online dating", really? Because none dates online, by the end of the day. That's just a way to arrange a meetup, maybe, or maybe something else, entirely.

To me, this topic is just a bit of a silly blackhole of attention on the forums, we could talk and talk all day and not even agree on what we are discussing here.

Women have always been the buyers throughout history, the burden on performance is on men and it has always been like this(such ridiculous post in itself form op)... If not every women would be fucking multiple dudes indiscriminately and we certainly don't want this....

So as a matter of biology and mating women do have it easier since they are buyers, men have it harder cause they are sellers... But when you have dudes that have above average sells skills, it equals and in some case inverts the scale to men having the advantage...

you need to be above average is the bottom line, to be above average is super difficult in this environment and it takes a lot of work..

Every time i go from above average to average, i have been there and see what happens, all the stuff most dudes complain about goes into my thoughts and actions i go to total shit results i talk about this here: https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/the-reality-distortion.22541/

i put in the work go to above average and bam back to biz as usual...

I totally forgot about a post i made called "women don't necessarily have it any easier":

“Tinder has a no-man’s land.

And the experiment I did to prove it.

There is no question that Tinder is a game-changer. It has completely turned dating on its head. Whether you believe in the ‘Tinder Generation’ or what Vanity Fair said recently about the dawning of a dating apocalypse, the dating landscape has changed and thanks primarily to dating apps like Tinder.

When a piece of technology comes along and disrupts the way people do things, it needs time for people to work out what it all means. That is exactly what is happening out there right now. No one knows what the fuck they’re doing. Dating apps have changed dating so dramatically, by way of opening up opportunity, choice, speed and access like never before.

I quit dating over the summer because, well, because dating fucking sucks. If you say you like dating, you’re a liar. No one likes it. In this city, everyone is too busy and everyone thinks they can do better. I don’t care who you are, what you look like or how awesome you think your apartment is. Dating is hard for everyone.

I quit dating because for the effort I was putting in, I wasn’t seeing the kind of return that made me want to keep doing it. Modern dating is about looking for the bad in people, not the good. I do it too. One guy I dated had these ears that pinned back funny and looked like they were stapled to his head. Maybe they were? I can list every superficial bad thing about that guy, and probably say minimal about his character or potential as a partner. Why has it come to this?

In the absence of any real feedback in the dating world, I crawl into my empty bed on another Saturday night and think, why is it always like this? It is my age? Is it me? Is it the city? Instead of hating all over Tinder and blaming it for my non-existent dating life, I decided to run a Tinder experiment instead.

For backstory — I am 37 years old, female, white, Australian and I live in Manhattan. I don’t look my age but I guarantee you that every 37 year old single woman in this city will tell you the same thing. I’ve been married before, been divorced for many years and have no desire to marry again. The idea of having any kind of family of my own dropped off my radar a long time ago. I have dated for years and always with the same intention — I want to be in an exclusive relationship.

Here’s how my Tinder experiment played out.
I deleted my old Tinder account. And by that I meant that I didn’t just delete the app from my phone, I deleted my account proper and deleted the app connection on Facebook, just to make sure.
I created a new Tinder profile. The same as my old one and with my real age of 37 years.
I picked a specific day and time (Saturday, 10am) and swiped right on the first 500 profiles. You’d be surprised how little time it takes to swipe right on 500 profiles. But I did have to pay for the unlimited version of Tinder for the privilege to do so.
I waited 48 hours, came back and tallied up how many matches swiped right back, how many messaged me and I recorded the ages for both.
I repeated the same thing a week later, but with my age set to 27 years. I used a different phone number, a fake Facebook account and I swiped right on the first 500 profiles. Only this time I set my age to 10 years younger — 27. I kept everything about my profile exactly the same, including the discovery settings. I waited 48 hours and tallied the results.

The results showed that, not surprisingly, I got a much higher right swipe rate when my age was 27 compared to 37, and I got significantly more messages too. At age 37, I matched with 71% of right swipes. At 27 that number sky-rocketed to 92%.

By far the more interesting stat was the dramatic difference in the average age of who swiped right and messaged me, relative to my Tinder age. The higher my Tinder age, the younger the average age of the Tinder match.The higher my Tinder age, the lower the average age of the Tinder match

I wasn’t expecting to see such a dramatic difference. It proves the point that younger men are initially interested in older women and that men my age overwhelmingly want younger women.

This is in line with my real life experiences too. Younger men tell me they appreciate the maturity of older women. In their eyes older women are independent, got their shit together, established, know what they want, and can really be sexy. They also tell me that women their age (~25 years old) are boring, immature and crazy. What does this all mean?

Ageism in dating isn’t new. It’s been around long before Tinder existed. Tinder just amplifies it. Since I turned 35, the entire dating landscape has changed. It’s got a whole lot fucking harder.

The biggest difficulty I have is that the men I want to date, men my age, don’t want to date me. Instead they chase much younger women. That came out in my Tinder experiment too — I got such little interest from men my own age. You’re a 37-year-old single guy in New York? Well, well, well! Go clean up then! You are sky-high on every woman’s demand list. But a 37 year old single girl in New York? Oh. Well, shit. Good luck with that. Because it’s not the fucking same. My male peers have an infinite pool to choose from, they can form relationships with younger women if they choose to and all is dandy.

I too can chase younger men. Only instead of everything being dandy like it is for my male counterparts, dating younger men when you’re my age comes with an age gap so vast, it is insurmountable. It cannot ever be breached.

It doesn’t matter how mature, stable, interesting, whether you’re in your sexual prime, how ballerina-perfect your body is or how young you look, a younger guy might like to brag to his friends about bagging an older woman, but no younger guy wants to bring home an older woman to meet the parents. And that’s the fucking truth.

The obvious answer is to go after men who would consider me as dating or relationship material. That’s men roughly 10 years older than me, in the 45+ age bracket.

Older men come with any combination of downsides that I find hard to tolerate — namely dad bods, viagra, ex-wives and teenage children. They’re often set in their ways and aren’t truly open to trying new things. They want Netflix and chill, six out of seven nights a week. Boring. As. Fuck. Many are actively chasing a second (or third) marriage or they have never married. They are the ‘I’ll never settle’ types that consider three months as a serious long-term relationship. The men 45+ that aren’t like this are in super high demand.

This is what I mean by Tinder no-man’s land. I am too old for younger men to consider me seriously, too old for men my age to even get a date, and I’m not interested in men 10+ years older. I don’t fit in. I’m stuck.

There’s another explanation for my lack of dating success. Forget about age or Tinder experiments — that the problem is with me. After all I am the common denominator in all of this. Maybe I don’t date well? I say the wrong thing, bat above my league, set my expectations too high. Am I too thin? Maybe I intimidate. Not smart enough? Too blonde, too foreign? Boring, closed, hard to get to know?

More likely is the cynicism I carry around for dating. It’s a chip on my shoulder for my lack of previous success, an ‘I care but really I don’t’ attitude and a frustration at not getting what I want. I can try to suppress it, but it has to shine through at some point. I am the ugly duckling that turned into a graceful and firey swan. One incapable of convincing that she might actually be beautiful enough.

I have two options. I could continue dating much younger men, knowing full well there is zero long term potential and it will fizzle out within 2–5 dates. Or I could go for the dad bods, the slobs and the viagra, the perpetual players or second-wife hunters that is dating men 45 years and older. Given those two options, what would you choose?

This is why I don’t date anymore. Opting out altogether is the simplest option right now. I accept that there is no best fit for me in the current dating landscape. I sit firmly within Tinder and dating’s no-man’s land. At least by removing myself from it entirely, it gives me the freedom to no longer have to wallow there.”

 

[Vision]

In case anyone is curious, I posted this in a mixed FB group about dating and this is the result that I got...

 

[Lover]

In case anyone is curious, I posted this in a mixed FB group about dating and this is the result that I got...

Both here and on Facebook, a vast majority says dating is hard for both sexes, then men, then women. I'm assuming the people in the Facebook poll are almost equally balanced in terms of their sex.

So let's say dating actually is harder for men, whether his goal is to get laid or secure a girlfriend. How can we use this piece of information?

My first thought: what kind of differences do guys and girls run into in their dating lives? I know one.

Some girls become interested in guys as early as 10-11 years of age, if not sooner. Somehow, the average girl learns that guys are attracted to looks. Maybe she grows up with a mother and sisters who almost always talk about how pretty she is or how pretty she looks in certain kind of clothes. Maybe she straight up asks somebody about how she can get with a certain guy and hears things like "he must make the move", "look in his eyes from a distance", "wear [certain piece of clothes] and let him compliment you" etc. And the wheels start spinning from there. Many girls get obsessed at one point or another about getting attention from guys in order to get their turn with them. And quickly they learn to be the pursued and not the hunter. And when they're finally dating someone, they must find ways to trust the guy they're getting with.

Guys on the other hand? Don't get me started haha! Let's just say the average guy become interested in girls later than the average girl. And unless he's from a family that knows the value of being as attractive as possible and a fantastic mate, nobody will teach him how to get with girls. Nobody tells him to dress in a way that looks attractive to the other sex. Nobody tells him how to be the best mate ever. Most guys wander around with little clue about how to get a mate. Their guy friends may tell them to just ask a girl out without looking at the details of how to ask her out - they wing it. They do learn to be the hunter to some degree but nobody really knows how he becomes a good hunter.

In terms of knowledge achieved from upbringing and the first grind in the dating world, I think guys have a harder time than girls. But if guys stick with it, become good hunters and don't take dating too seriously, they may eventually have an easier time compared to girls, who keep being stuck as the pursued - unless they dare changing their patterns.

@Vision, with your current poll it seems like there is a trend. I am curious if you could expand this poll to include another question: "why do you think dating is harder for men or women?"

 

[Will_V]

I suppose it's a curiosity, but I honestly don't think these answers reveal much. Fact is that men and women have different success/fail conditions. You can only really compare the difficulty for two groups when they have the same objective.

One way to see this difference is in terms of the cost of failure: women might have an advantage in attracting sexual interest, but the cost of relationship failure at every level from dating to family is far higher (again, notwithstanding modern attempts to equalize things).

Another way: for men, it's far easier to obtain responsibility (aka marriage and family) than it is to obtain the authority to properly manage it. Does the question of the difficulty of finding a relationship take into account the different levels of quality? For men, the quality might be authority (amongst other things) and for women, the quality might be commitment (amongst other things). It might be much easier for each sex to obtain low quality relationships than high quality ones, but they 'don't count'.

It's an interesting question, and a starting point I suppose, but I think reducing things to such simple terms as 'who has it harder' is going to merely fuel victim mentality and moralizing.

...

After my last breakup, which left me pretty sore, I was looking for lessons to learn from it. I extracted what I consider right now to be a golden rule:

The point of failure of a relationship is the point where one party consciously reduces their amount of investment or responsibility based on a perceived lack of investment or responsibility from the other.

The crucial point being that it is a conscious act based on a perception (that may be wrong, or poorly understood). Everyone can make mistakes, or be lazy. But when this becomes intentional competition, the relationship is finished.

For this reason, I think a man should treat his relationship with the same level of commitment regardless, on principle, until the day he declares it over. And so should a woman, I suppose, although followers tend to take less responsibility than leaders as a matter of course.

Now, as far as dating and the problems and difficulties of it are concerned, I would go one step further and develop another rule:

The quality of the dating market, in terms of the experience of any two given people, is proportional to the amount of responsibility that one party is unwilling to take to improve their offer, based on the perceived lack of responsibility that the other party is taking to make good their own offer.

This kind of competitive laziness and victim mentality creates precisely the kind of problems between the sexes that we have today.

In my opinion, a man should figure out what the ideal man is, and put themselves to the grindstone in order to become it. And so should a woman in her own way. Irrespective of the state of the dating market or any potential problems. And for the average man or woman, there is a hell of a long way to go to get there.

Only then, when someone is at least in the process of doing everything they can to be the best companion and to fulfill their specific role, can they properly consider the relative plight of the different sexes, and what they should be willing to accept or not. Because at least by then they will have a standard for themselves, which is necessary before one can properly judge someone else against whatever standard applies to them.

 

[Vision]

Both here and on Facebook, a vast majority says dating is hard for both sexes, then men, then women. I'm assuming the people in the Facebook poll are almost equally balanced in terms of their sex.

Well, there was a poll on the first page (if you missed it) from a women's forum where they basically tied between both and women.

So let's say dating actually is harder for men, whether his goal is to get laid or secure a girlfriend. How can we use this piece of information?

I think this poll is more about perception than it is reality. If you go to a women's forum, women tend to think it's more difficult for them... if you go to a men's forum, men generally think it's more difficult for them... if you go to a mixed one, both far outweighs the others with men coming in a far next and then women.

That's the perception people have of things.

But even based off of that, the conclusion isn't "men have it harder" but that "most people think everyone has it difficult."

The way I would use this is to question my own beliefs if I think I have it harder... not to justify my beliefs or question other people's beliefs... but that's me.

I think that's one of the more valuable ways to use this information.

I've noticed that in men's dating forums, men tend to take the victim role (just go look at the SoSuave forum, it's like a giant pity party for dudes in there).

If you are taking that role, it's not likely you'd be open to the idea that maybe everyone has it difficult... but that would be a very valuable reframe to have.

When I started teaching in the women's dating space, I thought women had it super easy... but then my first client was a model... and I was like, "wtf?" She was stuck on some dude she had never even met before, who just wanted to bang her and that's it.

There's also a practical view of partnership... if we understand each other, it's easier to be on the same team. Right now, in the west, specifically the USA, there's the war of the sexes and we're fighting each other to get our needs met through a relationship. But if we can come from being on the same side, it's not only easier but relationships are much, much better.

And understand each other and our challenges can help us achieve that. Although, it's usually more of an individual level that we need that understanding to occur but it's there.

My first thought: what kind of differences do guys and girls run into in their dating lives? I know one.

Some girls become interested in guys as early as 10-11 years of age, if not sooner. Somehow, the average girl learns that guys are attracted to looks. Maybe she grows up with a mother and sisters who almost always talk about how pretty she is or how pretty she looks in certain kind of clothes. Maybe she straight up asks somebody about how she can get with a certain guy and hears things like "he must make the move", "look in his eyes from a distance", "wear [certain piece of clothes] and let him compliment you" etc. And the wheels start spinning from there. Many girls get obsessed at one point or another about getting attention from guys in order to get their turn with them. And quickly they learn to be the pursued and not the hunter. And when they're finally dating someone, they must find ways to trust the guy they're getting with.

Guys on the other hand? Don't get me started haha! Let's just say the average guy become interested in girls later than the average girl. And unless he's from a family that knows the value of being as attractive as possible and a fantastic mate, nobody will teach him how to get with girls. Nobody tells him to dress in a way that looks attractive to the other sex. Nobody tells him how to be the best mate ever. Most guys wander around with little clue about how to get a mate. Their guy friends may tell them to just ask a girl out without looking at the details of how to ask her out - they wing it. They do learn to be the hunter to some degree but nobody really knows how he becomes a good hunter.

First, I'd like it if you'd relook at this comparison that you're making here... you're making a comparison around an ideal situation for women (she's told all these great things when she's young and quickly adapts to being chased) and an incredibly unideal situation for a man (which is pretty common but how common, exactly... especially compared to an unideal situation for women?).

The women's dating industry is massive... not because women are all growing up knowing what to do with men but because it's a fucking shit show out there for both men and women.

Let's paint another situation for a woman, one I've heard many times before... she could have been raised by a single mother (very common these days) where she's been taught that men just want one thing, men are trying to keep her down, that she only can rely on herself and that if she loves a man too much, he'll eventually leave her for any number of things... she may have had some dude get her wasted just to bang her, making her feel used, disregarded, and only valued for her body and sex (another very common scenario)... she maybe have been physically or sexually abused by a friend or a family member (another scenario I commonly hear about) and now doesn't trust anyone at all, especially men... there are a lot of unideal common scenarios that women go through.

I doubt that most are learning the dating and relationship ropes as children these days, especially with the current statistics.

In terms of knowledge achieved from upbringing and the first grind in the dating world, I think guys have a harder time than girls. But if guys stick with it, become good hunters and don't take dating too seriously, they may eventually have an easier time compared to girls, who keep being stuck as the pursued - unless they dare changing their patterns.

Well, if women do stop waiting to be pursued, they often end up empty handed as well because it's the person who is most invested who cares more and wants things to work out most.

A lot of women come to me because they've been chasing men and it doesn't work... they've been giving everything to a relationship only to get cheated on and taken for granted. That's the common scenario.

@Vision, with your current poll it seems like there is a trend. I am curious if you could expand this poll to include another question: "why do you think dating is harder for men or women?"

Yeah, that was actually my plan for the next question to see what people were saying about all of this.

I suppose it's a curiosity, but I honestly don't think these answers reveal much. Fact is that men and women have different success/fail conditions. You can only really compare the difficulty for two groups when they have the same objective.

That's probably true.

It's an interesting question, and a starting point I suppose, but I think reducing things to such simple terms as 'who has it harder' is going to merely fuel victim mentality and moralizing.

That's possible. I'm looking for ways to bring people together though. This could just fuel more victim mentality. My guess is that if this pushes you into the victim mentality or further along it, you probably weren't planning on coming out of the victim mentality anytime soon anyway.

Hopefully, instead, we can look at things and say, "Hmm... maybe there's more going on here than I thought. I should take a deeper look into whether I really am the victim."

That probably won't happen with someone who is coming from a victim mentality but if I can get someone to start questioning it, I'd say that's a start.

 

[Rain]

I'm actually more interested in knowing who does have it more difficult and why so that we can potentially make better solutions for those people. I'd like to help solve these problems and make healthy relationships a more normal part of our society, help break the barriers between the war of the sexes, and have men and women come together in partnership, on the same team, working with each other, to the extent that this is possible as a society.

Do you think there can be someone for everyone? Roughly even male to female population, there's someone for everyone? Competition stops that though. Even with an even number of men to women population, if all men want the 10 and all women want commitment... why would a guy commit if she's not a 10? That's assuming all guys want a 10 as their number 1 attraction thing, eg looks/being visual. If that assumption is incorrect for the bulk/most men then maybe its not as impossible as I first thought.

 

[Vision]

Do you think there can be someone for everyone? Roughly even male to female population, there's someone for everyone?

If you mean, do you think everyone will have someone, no... I don't think it's ever been that way and I don't think it'll ever be that way.

There are lots of both men and women who don't end up with someone, for a variety of different reasons.

Competition stops that though. Even with an even number of men to women population, if all men want the 10 and all women want commitment... why would a guy commit if she's not a 10?

What is a 10? As a guy who has been in this industry for a very long time, I can tell you that some guys like fat girls, some like skinny girls, some like girls with little personality, some like party girls, some like quiet girls... a 10 is very subjective.

And most guys don't settle for a 10... just look at society... there are tons of guys who are with mediocre women and there are tons of women with mediocre men... married, has kids with, settle for... that's the norm. Most guys aren't holding out for the perfect woman just like most women aren't holding out for the perfect man.

At some point, guys realize that they have a small dick, they're 5'6", have a mediocre job, and don't deserve a 10... and they don't want to do what is necessary to get a 10.

Why would a woman sleep with a guy who isn't a 10? Lots of reasons... the same as a guy would commit to a woman who isn't a 10.

People want to feel loved, they want to feel accomplished, they want to make progress, they want to feel like they CAN have someone... they realize that their shit isn't as hot as they once may have thought and end up settling for what they can get, not the perfect 10.

That's assuming all guys want a 10 as their number 1 attraction thing, eg looks/being visual. If that assumption is incorrect for the bulk/most men then maybe its not as impossible as I first thought.

Yeah, just look around man. Most people aren't 10's and if they want a relationship, which most people do according to the stats, they end up settling for what they can get, or they end up alone at some point, which isn't necessarily a big deal either, as long as you're okay with that.

 

[Lover]

@Vision Thanks for the thorough and insightful post! I'd like to clarify one thing

First, I'd like it if you'd relook at this comparison that you're making here... you're making a comparison around an ideal situation for women (she's told all these great things when she's young and quickly adapts to being chased) and an incredibly unideal situation for a man (which is pretty common but how common, exactly... especially compared to an unideal situation for women?).

The situation I talked about here may seem ideal for women... but I've met women who actually despise this particular bullshit they're told as kids and teens. How one day, a prince will come pick her up, and they will live happily ever after in a beautiful home full of pets and beautiful children. They hate it when they grow up. It's anything but ideal because they revovle their mating strategy around being physically attractive but with little to no attractive personality traits - maybe they also grow up with stories about men only wanting a beautiful wife...

The tradeoff is that the only proactive thing they do is increasing their looks and showing up. But the rest is up to the guy... he approaches, he makes things happen, and she has to trust him if she wants him... if he knows how to present himself well enough but deep down (no pun intended) he's a pump-and-dump type, she may not be able to weed him out before he dumps her.

Mind you, this is just the common trend I've heard about by some women I've talked to and slept with. And it is one of those noticable differences between men's and women's upbringing and how it is challenged. But after reading your post, I'm - more - open to the fact that many different upbringings about dating exist.

 

[Vision]

@Vision Thanks for the thorough and insightful post! I'd like to clarify one thing

The situation I talked about here may seem ideal for women... but I've met women who actually despise this particular bullshit they're told as kids and teens. How one day, a prince will come pick her up, and they will live happily ever after in a beautiful home full of pets and beautiful children. They hate it when they grow up. It's anything but ideal because they revovle their mating strategy around being physically attractive but with little to no attractive personality traits - maybe they also grow up with stories about men only wanting a beautiful wife...

Well, there's a reason that they don't like this... and it actually has very little to do with the reality of how things are.

On one side, we have media pushing crazy, unrealistic expectations on women about beauty standards and looks, mostly because it sells things to them and to men. This isn't going away and can be ignored, for the most part, if you're smart about it.

On the other side, this is just a perception of how things are... usually taught to them by feminists and left wing ideologues who are pushing their agendas down women's throats and teaching women that they should be more masculine, just like they're teaching men to be more feminine and attacking male masculinity, every chance that they get.

It's easy to create an argument against women being feminine when you say, "men/society/patriarchy/whatever says that you need to just be pretty and shut up and that's how you get a man" and then try to combat it with "approach men, take charge of the situation, go after what you want"... which mostly has the opposite effect of what they really want.

What they end up getting is EXACTLY what they were trying to avoid... because they're becoming so masculine, men are no longer attracted to their feminine side because it's so repressed... and suddenly, instead of being attracted to their personality, we're just attracted to their bodies because that polarity is gone in them.

And now men just want to bang them instead of being in relationships with them because there's no emotional attraction and the emotional connection is more of a friendship vibe than anything else... and since men are more interested in friends with benefits than women generally are, this benefits the men who are getting laid more than anyone else.

Eventually, what happens to a lot of women is that they are used as a fuck doll and discarded by so many men that they get bitter, resentful, and eventually resigned to the idea that relationships/marriage is not for them and either put themselves into work so that they stop thinking about it or casually date guys until every last ounce of habits that would allow them to have a life long partner are systematically squeezed out of them and when they do find a good guy that they want something real with, they're thoroughly incapable of actually being in a real relationship because their habits are toxic to real relationships.

In reality, physical attractiveness is NOT the only or even the most important thing that attracts men, even with the passive story that you're talking about where they get chased by men. Emotional attraction is the most important piece for them but they aren't going to build that if they're in their masculine energy, chasing men down.

If they think that being chased by men is bullshit, they have been brainwashed and confused by people who have an agenda. Because that is a GREAT position to be in, whether man or woman. Just imagine how easy your dating life would have been if you had been chased by women your whole life growing up and into adulthood... think about it. Being chased is a high value position and anyone who says otherwise has an agenda.

The tradeoff is that the only proactive thing they do is increasing their looks and showing up. But the rest is up to the guy... he approaches, he makes things happen, and she has to trust him if she wants him... if he knows how to present himself well enough but deep down (no pun intended) he's a pump-and-dump type, she may not be able to weed him out before he dumps her.

Lol, if she isn't able to weed out guys before they pump and dump her, she needs to stop letting dudes pump her until she figures out wtf is going on. Most of those women come to me and I teach them to stop pumping dudes and start screening them.

Mind you, this is just the common trend I've heard about by some women I've talked to and slept with.

Right, you're pumping and dumping a girl and she's like, "why don't men stay with me?" and you're like, "because you have just been increasing your looks girl, work on your personality."

 

[Will_V]

Well, there's a reason that they don't like this... and it actually has very little to do with the reality of how things are.

On one side, we have media pushing crazy, unrealistic expectations on women about beauty standards and looks, mostly because it sells things to them and to men. This isn't going away and can be ignored, for the most part, if you're smart about it.

On the other side, this is just a perception of how things are... usually taught to them by feminists and left wing ideologues who are pushing their agendas down women's throats and teaching women that they should be more masculine, just like they're teaching men to be more feminine and attacking male masculinity, every chance that they get.

It's easy to create an argument against women being feminine when you say, "men/society/patriarchy/whatever says that you need to just be pretty and shut up and that's how you get a man" and then try to combat it with "approach men, take charge of the situation, go after what you want"... which mostly has the opposite effect of what they really want.

What they end up getting is EXACTLY what they were trying to avoid... because they're becoming so masculine, men are no longer attracted to their feminine side because it's so repressed... and suddenly, instead of being attracted to their personality, we're just attracted to their bodies because that polarity is gone in them.

And now men just want to bang them instead of being in relationships with them because there's no emotional attraction and the emotional connection is more of a friendship vibe than anything else... and since men are more interested in friends with benefits than women generally are, this benefits the men who are getting laid more than anyone else.

Eventually, what happens to a lot of women is that they are used as a fuck doll and discarded by so many men that they get bitter, resentful, and eventually resigned to the idea that relationships/marriage is not for them and either put themselves into work so that they stop thinking about it or casually date guys until every last ounce of habits that would allow them to have a life long partner are systematically squeezed out of them and when they do find a good guy that they want something real with, they're thoroughly incapable of actually being in a real relationship because their habits are toxic to real relationships.

In reality, physical attractiveness is NOT the only or even the most important thing that attracts men, even with the passive story that you're talking about where they get chased by men. Emotional attraction is the most important piece for them but they aren't going to build that if they're in their masculine energy, chasing men down.

If they think that being chased by men is bullshit, they have been brainwashed and confused by people who have an agenda. Because that is a GREAT position to be in, whether man or woman. Just imagine how easy your dating life would have been if you had been chased by women your whole life growing up and into adulthood... think about it. Being chased is a high value position and anyone who says otherwise has an agenda.



Lol, if she isn't able to weed out guys before they pump and dump her, she needs to stop letting dudes pump her until she figures out wtf is going on. Most of those women come to me and I teach them to stop pumping dudes and start screening them.



Right, you're pumping and dumping a girl and she's like, "why don't men stay with me?" and you're like, "because you have just been increasing your looks girl, work on your personality."

Some good points there. Completely agree about emotional connection being most important, many guys are not even aware of how easily a woman could lead them on a string if she knew what she was doing.

It's a funny sort of contradiction that goes into the things women are told. On one hand, they are pressured to be more assertive rather than passive, but at the same time, the idea that a man doesn't accept them for who they are is unacceptable (which implies a completely passive value, i.e. not determined by anything they do).

There's a lot of needless confusion going around.

 

[sunnygirl]

I've noticed that in men's dating forums, men tend to take the victim role (just go look at the SoSuave forum, it's like a giant pity party for dudes in there)

This, lol.

I also agree with most of your sentiments. Right now, idk what's in the air but I feel like online on most of the active spaces on the internet such as reddit and relationship forums and social media, there is a huge gender war going on rn. It comes off as incredibly childish and everyone on both sides want to whine about who has it worse.

To be honest, most of the people in modern day society are low vibration (irrelevant of gender, race, etc). Remembering this helps me persist on the days I feel lonely, and I remind myself I'd rather be alone with a group of tight knit, high-vibration friends than buy into the superficial culture that we've promoted. That's why the modern-day dating landscape can be a bit wild but it's important to remember that whenever you feel overwhelmed by how bad everything is, these victim mentality men and then the hyper feminazis pretty much exist only on the online sphere. Online, the most extreme voices thrive in order to cause reactions out of people.