Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break up-

[lux7]

Might seem a silly, or even a negative question.

Yet the truth is simple: numbers say that if you get into a serious relationship, it's likely that relationship will end up.

Of course there are mitigating factors you can use, and kids DO tend to be a mitigating factor on their own.
Yet in spite of that and no matter how good you feel you are at picking a girl, people always tend to overestimate their abilities and underestimate how what seems good today -including themselves and the partner- will change.

So, here's the worst case scenario, which is not so unlikely after all, if you buy a house and have children:

1. You divorce or break up, doesn't really matter if you marry or not once you have children, right?
Because of the children and courts who always stand by the mother:
2. She takes part of your income
3. She takes your house, which in turn took most of your savings, and
4. You're kicked out from your own flat, back to renting and now with a depleted bank account

So the question is simple:
Is it actually a smart move buying a house?
Isn't NOT buying a house a smarter choice if you'll have children, considering you might likely part ways?

 

[trashKENNUT]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

lux7,

That's like saying don't take a bus because the probability of some idiot crashing at the side of the bus will kill me.

But yea, No marriage, Pre nups or consult lawyers? Yes i have to admit that 99% men gets kicked out of the house. So be careful.

Zac

 

[Drck]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Generally true but remember, those things are all relative, it all depends on more factors. For example:

Does she make the same or more money than you? If so, there is no reason to pay alimony. But what if she makes significantly less…??

Was she working for years but is she now on disability? Well, enjoy, most likely you will be paying. Don’t underestimate this, currently there is 94+ millions of people on disability, out of that more women than men…

How many years are you/were you together? Depending on state law, it is different in eg. 1 year versus 20 years. Usually there is no reason for you to pay alimony if you stay with the girl for short period of time. On the other hand, if you stay many years, the chances are much higher that you will be required to pay, should she have a good lawyer… The longer you stay the likelihood that you will be paying is higher…

Will she take your house? Chances are yes, assuming that the she will be taking care of the kids. Why would she move out with the kids if you can move out on your own? Know that you will most likely “share” whatever you have in common: banking account, your income and her income, your retirement… If she doesn’t take the whole house, maybe she’ll get just half, after you have to sell it…


….Nothing better to keep working your ass off and saving 15-20 years for your retirement, have saved X amount of $$$, house almost paid off - while she is not working during this time because she is ‘taking care of children’…. and then get divorced. … You will be screwed. Add to it that she could accuse you of being an abuser, physical and emotional… She was going to the doc for depression for 15 out of these 20 years – and it was ALL because of you (hint: check the medical records, you don’t even have a clue about)… So you will most likely lose your house, your children, your retirement… As if it wasn’t enough, you will be required to pay her alimony since she was “not able to work” for most of these years… If you don't pay you may go to jail... Talk about horror…

Hey, did anybody say girls are stupid? Be careful, girls are very very smart. Way smarter than most guys… All you guys think is how to approach, get a number and get laid, write down another number to satisfy your seducer’s ego… but many Girls are way ahead of that…

Talk to some guys who went through it... Or forget sex, forget your dick, forget your amazing seduction skills, forget your huge ego, and make a good friends with couple of hot girls. Really good friends. Then just LISTEN. LISTEN more, and you will see what I am talking about…

 

[ray_zorse]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

UMM, look guys, I have been through it and frankly my optimism is not scarred, in fact I am in the process of trying to pay off my ex in order to be able to commit to someone else. Why am I doing this you ask? Well, because firstly I want to reproduce, and secondly I blame myself for the problems the first time around. I don't believe my current partner is cluster B and now I know how to recognize that, so that's a great start. Also, I do not behave in a codependent manner, and I set firm boundaries, so I retain her respect. I believe that if we split up she will continue to cooperate with me, I will continue to provide her and my child with a standard of living similar to my own (something I want to do in any case), reasonable access will be maintained, and courts will be avoided. Furthermore I give her great sex several times a day and I maintain my abundance by openly flirting with other women, inviting them to clubbing and parties and so forth, keeping my partner in a chasing role. Finally I care for her very well and listen to any relationship issues or emotional problems she might have, while not being an emotional tampon and making it clear that I care for myself and my own needs first and hers second, unless some kind of compromise has been struck. I believe my partner is a wonderful person and she won't become a bitch (and if she does it will mean I fucked up somewhere along the way).
Ray

 

[Big Daddy]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Did you listen to Blackdragon's podcast episode? Dude has good points on the matter on his website (pre nups, children, you will eventually get fucked), but is a little bit too extremist with his egoism (i.e. if he's not the one getting fucked, then all is good).

I'm with Drck on this one. Given that you learned this material well and made at least a decent partner decision with decent relationship management, I suspect you'd care enough for them to not want to see them getting crushed by life if she doesn't make the necessary to take care of the children, for instance. Plus if you made a decent choice, she'll likely respect you even after the divorce.

I'd never marry without that prenup stating that what is mine is mine, though. No "splitting into half" bullshit.

 

[lux7]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

UMM, look guys, I have been through it and frankly my optimism is not scarred, in fact I am in the process of trying to pay off my ex in order to be able to commit to someone else. Why am I doing this you ask? Well, because firstly I want to reproduce, and secondly I blame myself for the problems the first time around. I don't believe my current partner is cluster B and now I know how to recognize that, so that's a great start. Also, I do not behave in a codependent manner, and I set firm boundaries, so I retain her respect. I believe that if we split up she will continue to cooperate with me, I will continue to provide her and my child with a standard of living similar to my own (something I want to do in any case), reasonable access will be maintained, and courts will be avoided. Furthermore I give her great sex several times a day and I maintain my abundance by openly flirting with other women, inviting them to clubbing and parties and so forth, keeping my partner in a chasing role. Finally I care for her very well and listen to any relationship issues or emotional problems she might have, while not being an emotional tampon and making it clear that I care for myself and my own needs first and hers second, unless some kind of compromise has been struck. I believe my partner is a wonderful person and she won't become a bitch (and if she does it will mean I fucked up somewhere along the way).
Ray

Ray, it's a good point, yet have you seen how many ifs in there.

That you will keep flirting (she'll tell it was proof you don't respect her), that you're able to see how things will change between youtwo, that she's not cluster b (doesn't have to be any cluster, when you break up she might jusy try to maximize her chances), that you will keep being great during the relationship AND that she'll keep being great, that you will stay good in case you break up (that's the biggest if btw, brothers and family hate each other cause of money)...

Plus you set as rules you will want to take care for her, which won't happen in case of nasty break up, and that you care for yourself first even during the relationship (doesn't sound good to me but off topic).

The fact you give her good sex, *now* is irrelevant and can also be negative. It's good for now, but what if you get bored of her? What if things change, and likely will? Then it becomes negative precedent: "sex USED to be great, and now..? Further proof he doesn't like me anymore, and has someone else, and deserves me taking as much as I can.."
The biggest problem I had with an ex I used to give great sex to was the day after I refused her sexual advances..

 

[lux7]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Generally true but remember, those things are all relative, it all depends on more factors. For example:

Does she make the same or more money than you? If so, there is no reason to pay alimony.

This sounds like one of the very few bullet proof methods really..

 

[ray_zorse]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Well, the Family Court is heavily stacked against you and so is the Family Violence system. Yet, until we get that changed, if you want to reproduce you must play by the rules of the game.

So IMO the only way to optimize your outcome is (1) know the rules of the game intimately -- check (2) choose the right partner e.g. low partner count, conservative, doesn't party or drink, honest, straightforward -- check (3) apply correct relationship management and maintain dominance and attraction, handle her relationship tests and drama and so on -- check (4) be outcome independent, allow for the possibility of it going to shit and have a backup plan to buy her a house etc -- check.

If anyone can see any holes in this logic or anything I have not thought of, I would be keen to know. I should point out that staying unreactive and never raising one's voice or doing anything that could be interpreted as threatening or harassing, and in that context being willing to walk away, is a consequence of items 1, 3 and 4 together. If you maintain this and you are willing to be sneaky e.g. maintain a secret journal of dates and times of incidents, secretly record conversations etc (item 1), you cannot be forced to leave your home until a divorce settlement is made and the home ordered to be sold.

Ray

 

[lux7]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Generally true but remember, those things are all relative, it all depends on more factors. For example:

Does she make the same or more money than you? If so, there is no reason to pay alimony.

This sounds like one of the very few bullet proof methods really..

Even there though, you gotta watch out for : earnings while possibly taking care of kids/pregnant and "official" earnings.

I'll give you an example from my real life where both are very negative:

A girl I'm seeing is a 5 times in a row national dance champion, and vice world champion -not first as the Russians bribed the jury she said-.
Beautiful, stylish, and even works hard, every day, weekends included! Of course with the results and years of experience she's the top person to learn dance from in town, commanding very good rates and earning much more than I do.
She's under my thumb I would say (for now), and contrary to me owns a car, often chauffering me around. We split what we consume together, except we only meet at my place so I waste no time, she bring in good wines and drives us, so... She puts more.
She complains about her mom who had a fight with her sister over some heredity because, hell "you don't do that with people you care for over some money".
She's also good in bed.
Seems freaking perfect right?

Yet... Can you see the possibility for long term troubles here?

I can see them all over this, and all out of the top of my head without any rational thought put into this so far.

-She complained about her past BF being "not the right guy to get serious with, as he wanted", because "she sees no willingness to grow/improve him". Great, I love that, a woman who's improvement-focused, fantastic! Yet that "growth" also included financial one. There are very few women who are completely uncaring of money, yet I've met them, and I'd feel safer if she didn't weigh a partner for his money making potential.

-She spends a lot in top clothes, perfect manicure and hair, restaurants etc.
Today, working, she can afford that and even save, and she's done it for yeras, so she's accustomed to that life and takes it for granted. Think she'd be willing to give that up once she's pregnant and won't be able to teach for a few years? Strongly doubt it! If her savings aren't enough it'd be up to me to take care of her during that period. And I see a lot of potentials in complaining on "the things she was used to". "And look at me now, I haven't even been shopping or to a restaurants in two whole months!"

-She's a free lancer and deals a lot with cash (her beautiful purses are always full of cash). She openly admits of declaring much less than what she actually earns.
If one day the shit hits the fan, one it will be easy for her to present statements of consistent (much low)er income for years, two she has no qualms in cheating the tax authorities, would she have the same ethical issues presenting other false statements?

-She's Russian, grown up in a very "russian" environment. Go ahead and call me racist please . My answer is "how many russians have you been dealing with so far". I have, and to me, that's an alarm bell. A soft one, of course, but still one.

 

[Drck]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

I'm not familiar with all the laws, but it would make sense to say that if she makes more than you, you should be actually able to get some money from her. Equality should work in both ways, at least in theory...

IMO marriage is becoming obsolete for guys. If you are young, in your 20's, I wouldn't recommend marriage at all. What for? Unless you and she is traditional, conservative, truly family oriented and so forth - what will you as a guy get out of the marriage? You have much higher potential to lose everything, and very low potential to gain something.... The law should be equal, but it is probably not a secret to say that most judges will take side of the woman...

 

[lux7]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

I'm not familiar with all the laws, but it would make sense to say that if she makes more than you, you should be actually able to get some money from her. Equality should work in both ways, at least in theory...

IMO marriage is becoming obsolete for guys. If you are young, in your 20's, I wouldn't recommend marriage at all. What for? Unless you and she is traditional, conservative, truly family oriented and so forth - what will you as a guy get out of the marriage? You have much higher potential to lose everything, and very low potential to gain something.... The law should be equal, but it is probably not a secret to say that most judges will take side of the woman...

I agree with you, marriage is not even taken into account .

If she makes more than you in actual terms but on (legal) paper she makes less... That's what counts more I'm afraid (BTW, that was just an example).

 

[trashKENNUT]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Everyone,

But you do have to consider marriage when you include your personal feelings (because most men are blind anyway) and the people around her, are they more prone to pressuring her? are they crazy? are they idiotic?

Zac

 

[Drck]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Feelings called love make us guys blind. Those feelings are only temporary, after some time they go away. What many guys are left with is just a headache.

So we should consider two kinds of marriages.

The first one is when both partners fall in love. They get married while in high emotions, and then they'll see what will happen.... I wouldn't recommend this kind of marriage, it might work well for some, but it doesn't work for many...

The second one is more calculated. We should be able to answer couple of questions without emotional involvement, for example:

* Other than love, what do I actually gain by marrying this girl?
* What will she bring to the table? What will she contribute to the marriage except her pretty face and sweet words?
* Is she giver or taker? Is she doing things for me spontaneously, and equally as I do for her?
* How is her mom? Is her mom a fat miserable bitch, or sweet, pleasant lady? Chances are high that the girl you love will follow her footsteps.
* Similarly, how is her family? Do they talk to each other, or hate each other?
* How does she look at finances? Does she spent every money she gets, or is she actually saving? After all, finances are very important. You don't want to work like a slave jobs that you hate, come home tired and exhausted - and claim that being poor makes you somehow happy, and that all rich people are bad... That is a distorted thinking...
* Is she emotionally stable enough? Or is she already popping pills for her mood? Chances are that you will end up being the "villain", the guy who is responsible for all her misery.... Be wise, chose wise...
* Is she faithful or more liberal in sex? You should know, you should find out - assuming that that is important to you at first place...
* How is she behaving towards other guys? Is she rather shy and conservative around most guys, or does she already have many orbitals around?
* If she is really faithful and really honest - what are the chances that she will end up with you? You, the male slut working 24/7 on "how to get as many lays in shortest period of time"? If we are talking about quality girls, the chances are quite low. Get over your ego, your sexy smiles and impressive looks are only temporary. There are actually quality girls who do care...
* What is her religion and how important it is to you? If religion is quite important to you, you should not seek a girl outside of your religion. Simple as that...
* How does she actually view the "family life"? Does she have a clue? What is she imagining as a great family, and can you meet her expectations? Does she meet your expectations about great wife? How many children, none? Twelfe?

And so forth, good enuf... No need to become paranoid about marriage or obsessed with those questions, yet at the same time they can save your ass down the road, 15-20 years from now... You should be open minded, yet at the same time have a good picture in your mind of what you are you actually looking for in that girl... With that being said, you shall not get married based only on her pretty looks. These looks will be gone in couple of years, if not months...

 

[lux7]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

UMM, look guys, I have been through it and frankly my optimism is not scarred, in fact I am in the process of trying to pay off my ex in order to be able to commit to someone else. Why am I doing this you ask? Well, because firstly I want to reproduce,
Ray

Ray, a few questions for you: what do you mean by "paying off"?

What stops you from committing without "paying off" anything, I don't understand.

A bit more personal then, feel free not to reply here if you don't want: you do already have children, right? Is the fact that you aren't letting them grow in the family and/or you can't see them as much as you want a further reason to make more children?

 

[lux7]

Re: Does it make sense to buy a house if you plan to have kids -and likely break

Feelings called love make us guys blind. Those feelings are only temporary, after some time they go away. What many guys are left with is just a headache.

So we should consider two kinds of marriages.

The first one is when both partners fall in love. They get married while in high emotions, and then they'll see what will happen.... I wouldn't recommend this kind of marriage, it might work well for some, but it doesn't work for many...

The second one is more calculated. We should be able to answer couple of questions without emotional involvement, for example:

* Other than love, what do I actually gain by marrying this girl?
* What will she bring to the table? What will she contribute to the marriage except her pretty face and sweet words?
* Is she giver or taker? Is she doing things for me spontaneously, and equally as I do for her?
* How is her mom? Is her mom a fat miserable bitch, or sweet, pleasant lady? Chances are high that the girl you love will follow her footsteps.
* Similarly, how is her family? Do they talk to each other, or hate each other?
* How does she look at finances? Does she spent every money she gets, or is she actually saving? After all, finances are very important. You don't want to work like a slave jobs that you hate, come home tired and exhausted - and claim that being poor makes you somehow happy, and that all rich people are bad... That is a distorted thinking...
* Is she emotionally stable enough? Or is she already popping pills for her mood? Chances are that you will end up being the "villain", the guy who is responsible for all her misery.... Be wise, chose wise...
* Is she faithful or more liberal in sex? You should know, you should find out - assuming that that is important to you at first place...
* How is she behaving towards other guys? Is she rather shy and conservative around most guys, or does she already have many orbitals around?
* If she is really faithful and really honest - what are the chances that she will end up with you? You, the male slut working 24/7 on "how to get as many lays in shortest period of time"? If we are talking about quality girls, the chances are quite low. Get over your ego, your sexy smiles and impressive looks are only temporary. There are actually quality girls who do care...
* What is her religion and how important it is to you? If religion is quite important to you, you should not seek a girl outside of your religion. Simple as that...
* How does she actually view the "family life"? Does she have a clue? What is she imagining as a great family, and can you meet her expectations? Does she meet your expectations about great wife? How many children, none? Twelfe?

And so forth, good enuf... No need to become paranoid about marriage or obsessed with those questions, yet at the same time they can save your ass down the road, 15-20 years from now... You should be open minded, yet at the same time have a good picture in your mind of what you are you actually looking for in that girl... With that being said, you shall not get married based only on her pretty looks. These looks will be gone in couple of years, if not months...

Man, I like your check list!

The point below though made me think:

* If she is really faithful and really honest - what are the chances that she will end up with you? You, the male slut working 24/7 on "how to get as many lays in shortest period of time"? If we are talking about quality girls, the chances are quite low. Get over your ego, your sexy smiles and impressive looks are only temporary. There are actually quality girls who do care...

The goal of this website is to get a high quality person who would eventually attract a likewise quality person.

Of course, "high quality" is subjective, but let's imagine we put "low partner count/low thirst of sexual adventures" there if one is looking for long term (again, very subjective).

Meeting/dating those girls is harder out of could approach and yes, like you say, it's easier you end up with more sexually open girls (in my case I did find several "serious" Asians ones, probably as I come across non-threatening / classy, but find it much much harder with caucasians ).

It made me think, is "social circle game" more reliable to target the shier/more conservative and reserved young ones who would make more trustworthy long term partners?