Epiphany about love

[Dylweed]

Since i started having success with pickup 1.5 years ago ive had multiple girls fall in love with me. The thing is, i appreciated them but i never really cared about them as much as they cared about me. The more in love with me they were the more in control i would be. The easier it was to get their love the less i wanted and needed it. This would just make them fall even harder in love with me.

A few times ive gone on dates with a girl who i really like, and it might go real well but i think they can sense that i want it to work more then they do and it ends up pushing them away. These are the girls that i always want, the ones i can't have.

So its kind of been my goal to become a man that can care less than even hottest highest quality girls. However i now realize that if i were able to pull that off, then yes even the highest quality girls would be madly in love with me, but again, i wouldn't really want them or need them that bad.

It's like i want to care, but when i do care it doesn't work. And when i don't care, i get bored. So im afraid that even if i were to make the hottest high quality girls fall madly in love with me, that id still not really care. Which almost makes it seem like take it or leave it. Which almost makes getting girls and having girlfriends pointless. Maybe its just im discovering that girls will never make me happy like maybe i always thought and that i should just view them as a slight bonus to my life by enjoying their company?

I think this is a good realization also just a little sad because it seems like it's impossible to have a relationship where both people are equally into each other. The feeling of love comes from feeling out of control and if you were able to get a girlfriend while feeling less in control then her, well then she wont really respect you very much anyway. So basically being crazy in love at least for a man seems like a complete myth.

I'd appreciate to hear what you guys think on this, Thanks

 

[Orelfius]

I think that what we usually abusively call "love", is in fact infatuation.

And yes, happy infatuation is impossible: either you'e on the bored side or on the unmet side.

It's true for women too: they prefer a dominant male for what? Because it allows them to live that infatuation (beeing the one who feel it), but then, they have the problem of keeping the guy attracted as their "love" (infatuation) push him more and more away. (yeah, we can also say that they prefer dominant men for evolutive reasons, but simply being in the chooser position in combination with wanting to expérience "true love" explain this also). And keeping the guy they love is the big challenge for women.

Why? Infatuation is a call to meet a need; as soon as the need is met, we "check the box" and move to the next need. We are designed to save energy, we don't need to spend anymore émotionnel energy on that aspect of our life. Trying to get stuff, whatever it's emotion, relationship, high from drugs or material stuff, is a never ending cycle. As soon as you have anything, you want more of it or something else... because you could.
(and there's ways out of that: Doing instead of geting, loving works too as explained below)

I think it's good to get over infatuation, it's overated anyway. Many dangerous drugs can give you an awesome high, yet, it's wise to not use them and live a better life without it. Infatuation is the same: strong feeling, dangerous feeling. Who ever said it's a good thing? Disney! But anyone who read littérature and poetry (real stuff not romance novel porn) could see all over the place warning made about it. Infatuation = most dangerous drug of all.

But I think love is something else. Love is the emotional state we have by default for others WHEN WE STOP CARING ABOUT OUR OWN NEEDS. Then, suddenly, we start wishing success, happening, joyful moments and many good things for that other human being.

But that's only possible when we stop to care about how that other person could fit in our plan to meet our needs.

Us, men, are naturel gifted to shut down and cut ourselves from our emotions. If you do it with your own needs, you will experience this "real love" (as opposed of "true love" winch is only infatuation, greed and not love at all). It's chill, relax, a feeling that everything's gonna be OK no matter what.

I think "real love" is all around, because we carry it along with us.

And as far as I've learned in this life, that "real love" is the only thing that finally make you stop feeling alone. Not caring about what other people do for us, not wanting to control them, not wanting to get anything from them. When you feel that, that's when the loneliness vanish. Because you cease to be "overthere", in their head, to come back "here" within yourself. Loneliness happen when you stop keeping company to yourself.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

But I think love is something else. Love is the emotional state we have by default for others WHEN WE STOP CARING ABOUT OUR OWN NEEDS. Then, suddenly, we start wishing success, happening, joyful moments and many good things for that other human being.

Well said. Love is placing the needs of others ahead of yours. Dylweed if you are controlling you are not in love. If you need her more than she needs you, you are not in love. Romantic "Love" as presented by Hollywood is not love. In order to really experience love you have to get past your basic needs and be willing to let the others come before yourself. Picking up women to have sex with them is not love. Picking up women to develop a meaningful relationship is the beginning of developing love.

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[Dylweed]

Thanks for the replies guys, first i wanna say i never was controlling with girls, i always accepted them as is, i just was in control of when we would hang out and what we would do and all that. And the ones that loved me always seemed to want to hang out more often than what i wanted myself, but i always did what i wanted.

Interesting, so youre saying real love is only when you stop caring about your own needs and you just aim acceptance and positive vibes towards someone else?

Thing is, i think ive been doing that with all my friends with benefits relationships. I never have any crazy expectations about them and i accept them as they are and have fun with them and aim positive emotions at them without needing anything.

But now im trying to enter into a monogamous relationship and im struggling trying to find out the point. I thought that the point of monogamy was to fall in love or something like that. However for myself i have high expectations for a girl when i decide to make her my only girl. So its like i actually become less loving because now i want something from her, her to fill some need of mine for a perfect girl basically and i want her to live up to that expectation. Where as with a friends with benefits i dont care how perfect they are, just accept them as is because i know im free to get someone better anytime.

Got any opinions on this? I'm maybe changing the subject now but i just dont see the point in monogamy, i thought it was to experience love but is monogamy really required for love? I dont think so. It just seems to make love even harder. But maybe its just a challenge to overcome to focus all your time and and energy on only 1 girl instead of many, and then at the same time still practice acceptance and non needy love at the same time? Im so confused

 

[Franco]

Dylweed,

I'm going to add that it seems like you haven't really come across an amazing girl then, yet.

If you come across a girl that is not only extremely attractive but also in sync with the way your personality is, your interests, your beliefs, etc., it can do number on your emotions, and you can certainly feel "in love" with a girl -- even if initially you did not care about her.

For some guys, their lifestyles are so out of touch with what most women want that they are incapable of building a strong connection with them, so that's on them if they want to maintain that lifestyle (if they feel like they are happy with it) or adapt their lifestyle to one that is capable of keeping a girl around and relatively happy to be with you. There are sacrifices to be made if you want something stable, so it's up to you to keep around a girl that is worth making some sacrifices for.

Usually when a guy gets to this phase, he just needs to actually start sleeping with really attractive women to notice the difference. If you're sleeping with women relatively consistently, but mainly average to slightly-above average ones, then you're probably ready to take the next step. I would focus on approaching women that you find extremely attractive, and then keep doing it until you find one that "clicks" with you in the ways that you need to be able to click in order to find a deeper appreciation for what's out there.

- Franco

 

[Orelfius]

@Dylweed
When there is something in your head that is thinking "I wish she/she should do/I hope she" etc. Then, you want to control the other person.

It doesn't matter if it translate to action or not (we are talking about emotions here, not actions), you're still, at least in your head "trying/wishing to control" another human being… and the truth is you can't.

Never ever. No exceptions.

You could put a gun in their face or threaten to torture to death everyone they know and love… they still can say NO to whatever you asked them to do.

You talk about monogamy. Monogamy could be a result or it could be a "deal".
Monogamy as a deal come with control built-in: An implied monopoly over the other (and yours) sexuality.
Monogamy as a result, is just "It's so great with this girl that i don't need nor will bother to go after another"

… and you could even add: and I don't care if she goes for other men or not because I do not control her, her body is not my business, all i could do is to be the best version of myself and keep improving it.

That's love. You just live the moment, just enjoy what you DO and totally don't care about what you GET.

If you expect fatefulness, it's "True love" but not "real love", it's infatuation, greediness… disguised as love.

In order to experience "real love", you will first need to take FULL responsibility for your action and your happiness. It mean that WHATEVER what other people do, it doesn't matter, because whatever they do is THEIR business, not yours.

It doesn't mean to be a push over. You could still say no, fight, contest or whatever you want. But you cease to be upset about whatever action other people do.

As an example:
You have a girlfriend, she cheat on you. It's ok, no problem. Her body, her business, nothing to be upset about. And still, you can dump her because that's not the kind of life you want to live.

It's when other people are not LINKED to your needs and your happiness that you can experience love for them.

Another classical example:
Little kids. We love them freely and honestly. Because we don't expect anything from them (unless we are their parents, that another story). Do you expect your little 4 years old nephew to solve your relationship problems? To help you building a house? or paying your mortgage for you? NO. That would be nonsense.

But with grown up people, we tend to hold them responsible for a LOT of our needs (mostly psychological ones, but still) and from that stem disappointment and resentment. But before the disappointment and the resentment come the worries. We worries about them fulfilling our needs or not. Those worries form a veil between you and the "real love". You have to tear the veil of worries to reach for love.

It's not about "forgetting yourself in love". It about stoping to put the fulfilment of your emotional needs (i.e.: expectations) on the shoulders of other people. You can still care about yourself. Just keep the others outside of the equation.

Now, about the "True love" that is displayed ad nauseam in the romantic comedy…
It's a totally different thing. It's a powerful high. It's a dopamine rush in your brain. Similar to drugs. It's not a real emotion.
Infatuation have an effect similar to the cocaine, very very different that what you feel with emotions.

Think about how feel fear, anger, tenderness, joy, serenity, jealousy, etc. VERY totally different from that HIGH from so called "true love". That's because it's not an emotion, it's a drug… That's why a broken heart hurt so much: it's the dopamine drop in the brain.

So, my opinion is that it's better to just let go of that drugs like any other one and instead try to experience "real love". Another way to name it is affection.

I hope it help a bit.

 

[Dylweed]

Dylweed,

I'm going to add that it seems like you haven't really come across an amazing girl then, yet.

If you come across a girl that is not only extremely attractive but also in sync with the way your personality is, your interests, your beliefs, etc., it can do number on your emotions, and you can certainly feel "in love" with a girl -- even if initially you did not care about her.

For some guys, their lifestyles are so out of touch with what most women want that they are incapable of building a strong connection with them, so that's on them if they want to maintain that lifestyle (if they feel like they are happy with it) or adapt their lifestyle to one that is capable of keeping a girl around and relatively happy to be with you. There are sacrifices to be made if you want something stable, so it's up to you to keep around a girl that is worth making some sacrifices for.

Usually when a guy gets to this phase, he just needs to actually start sleeping with really attractive women to notice the difference. If you're sleeping with women relatively consistently, but mainly average to slightly-above average ones, then you're probably ready to take the next step. I would focus on approaching women that you find extremely attractive, and then keep doing it until you find one that "clicks" with you in the ways that you need to be able to click in order to find a deeper appreciation for what's out there.

- Franco

Man i totally agree with this advice, thank you! I have a very strong desire to be with a girl who is yes, super hot, but also able to click with like you say. I once got a bj on a first date from a girl who i would consider like a 9.5, sadly i never got to sleep with her but i still experienced some pretty crazy emotions for her. Sadly its just really hard for me with the hottest girls, ive gone on dates with a handful of them but its always been only one date, even slept with one girl id consider really hot but she flaked after that lol

Thing is i dont know what to do, im all fucked in the head right now. I just told a girl today that id be her boyfriend, but thinking about this now, i dont really know. She's definitely cute but not on the level of extremely attractive. She really likes me and i like her too, but deep down i have a desire for a higher quality girl.

This is my first legit girlfriend and i felt it was time to experience one, im turning 24 next week. But maybe im just making a logical choice because im afraid i can't get better instead of really wanting it.
I was thinking id shift my focus off pickup and onto career while with her but do you think im making a mistake and i should not settle for anything less than a girl that i feel really crazy "in love" with?

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

Dylweed,

I was there once. I know what you are going thru. I can tell you that you can not control when you will find THE girl. You need to get it out of your head that now is the time for the monogamous relationship. You are putting a societal pressure on yourself that is causing a false need for this relationship. You need to do what Franco said.

Usually when a guy gets to this phase, he just needs to actually start sleeping with really attractive women to notice the difference. If you're sleeping with women relatively consistently, but mainly average to slightly-above average ones, then you're probably ready to take the next step. I would focus on approaching women that you find extremely attractive, and then keep doing it until you find one that "clicks" with you in the ways that you need to be able to click in order to find a deeper appreciation for what's out there.

- Franco

Right now you are in the "I need a relationship of this type to move my life forward" mode. You really make it hard to get to know the women you are meeting/dating because you have a preconceived idea of who they should be. You are trying to make them fit your mold of the ideal companion. No one can live up to that. Instead of trying to find "the one". Enjoy dating a lot of hot women. If you look at a woman and say to yourself "Is she the one?" or "She could be the one." then stop and step back. You are controlling the situation. Just relax. Enjoy the relationship as it naturally happens. The right person will come along. You just can't control when. I do agree with Franco that you should date women you are really attracted to. You don't want to end up in a relationship with a women that doesn't turn you on.

BDSC

 

[Franco]

Dylweed,

I was thinking id shift my focus off pickup and onto career while with her but do you think im making a mistake and i should not settle for anything less than a girl that i feel really crazy "in love" with?

Ideally, you don't really ever want to be "crazy" in love anymore. "Crazy" in love is the same type of high school/college love you have for a girl when you're super needy, and maybe you end up getting her, but she eventually leaves you because she realizes you're needy and not quite the catch she thought you were. So, ideally, the girl should be "crazy" in love with you.

The feeling you should get for an extremely high quality girl is less extreme, so it's more of a "controlled" love. You feel extra emotions for her because she's a girl that you realize if, for example, you met her 5 years ago, she would have MADE you crazy in love. But now that you're an improved man and have slept with lots of (sometimes pretty attractive) women, you are much more in control of your emotions and feelings. So you "feel" some of those same feelings you had from the "crazy" love days, but it's now controlled, and you understand where it's coming from and how to keep them in check to both keep her happy and keep you happy as well.

Generally, if you start to feel some of those old emotions you had for a girlfriend or crush from high school, there's a good chance that it's because you've found a good one. At the same time, if you ever find yourself feeling "crazy" in love, it means that you're still lacking abundance because you feel like this girl is of a quality that is normally "unattainable" for you. Once you get to a level where girlfriend-quality girls feel attainable to you, abundance levels go up and "crazy" emotion levels go down to a level that can be controlled (so that you only get the "benefits" of being in love but not the negative effects of being needy as well).

- Franco

 

[Dylweed]

Dylweed,

I was thinking id shift my focus off pickup and onto career while with her but do you think im making a mistake and i should not settle for anything less than a girl that i feel really crazy "in love" with?

Ideally, you don't really ever want to be "crazy" in love anymore. "Crazy" in love is the same type of high school/college love you have for a girl when you're super needy, and maybe you end up getting her, but she eventually leaves you because she realizes you're needy and not quite the catch she thought you were. So, ideally, the girl should be "crazy" in love with you.

The feeling you should get for an extremely high quality girl is less extreme, so it's more of a "controlled" love. You feel extra emotions for her because she's a girl that you realize if, for example, you met her 5 years ago, she would have MADE you crazy in love. But now that you're an improved man and have slept with lots of (sometimes pretty attractive) women, you are much more in control of your emotions and feelings. So you "feel" some of those same feelings you had from the "crazy" love days, but it's now controlled, and you understand where it's coming from and how to keep them in check to both keep her happy and keep you happy as well.

Generally, if you start to feel some of those old emotions you had for a girlfriend or crush from high school, there's a good chance that it's because you've found a good one. At the same time, if you ever find yourself feeling "crazy" in love, it means that you're still lacking abundance because you feel like this girl is of a quality that is normally "unattainable" for you. Once you get to a level where girlfriend-quality girls feel attainable to you, abundance levels go up and "crazy" emotion levels go down to a level that can be controlled (so that you only get the "benefits" of being in love but not the negative effects of being needy as well).

- Franco

awesome, i get that, it makes sense. however i guess that kind of sums up my point, its like that feeling of crazy love that ive heard about my whole life and always desired is a myth. Pickup has definitely changed me. Its just weird knowing that a girl is so replaceable, its a good thing because you dont experience negative emotions as much but it also makes it seem like less of a high as well. Its kind of like pick up numbs you to all this shit.