Fear of Being Hurt by Women

[Bboy100]

TLDR; Heartbreak is exceptionally painful for me. Because of this, I'm afraid of opening up to women unless I'm 100% sure she won't hurt me which is impossible. What do I do?


Ever since I got into this pickup stuff, I've had a legit fear of being cheated on by women. At first, it was because of how casually a lot of authors will talk about sleeping with women who are spoken for (not to mention the "lover" and "provider" paradigm off which this site is based means its highly unlikely that one man can ever satisfy all of a women's needs).

Then...even after I distanced myself from religiously following the material here and developed my own views...I experienced a new problem. ...I myself ended up being the guy with whom a lot of women cheat on their BFs with. Moreover, I have lots of girl friends who remorselessly flirt with, trade contact info with, put themselves in situations where sex could happen. Even if they have BFs. So it seems that should they so choose to, most women can drop their BF at the drop of a hat for some other guy. Or have an affair. So basically...a lot of what was written on this site turned out to be correct in regards to how open to cheating a lot (i.e. most) women are given the right circumstances.

To make matters worse...I don't handle heartbreak well. I know some people who will get dumped or hurt in some way, and soon after, they feel fine. They heal in a reasonable amount of time. Not me. In fact, its been six months since my last relationship (which only lasted a total of six months), and if I'm being honest, I still think about her every day. Not that I want to get back together with her or anything. There are very good reasons why I shouldn't do that. But I just miss what we had and the end of our relationship is still painful to me. Anyways, that's a whole different can of worms...the point is, it seems like heartbreak is something I heal from very very slowly. Much slower than the average guy.

So when we combine those two things...it creates a recipe for unreasonable expectations. I'm basically trying to find a girl who I'm 100% sure won't cheat on me or break my heart (and also has a plethora of other great qualities). But this is impossible. Because it's impossible to be 100% sure this won't happen. Even if she checks off all the criteria for "unlikely to hurt me", there are still never any guarantees.

I think that in the end...it comes down to the fact that I feel like once I open up to a girl, I lose control over a lot of things and I basically have to trust that she'll treat me well. Cause I can't just choose to cut her off and move on if she's doing something I don't like. Because ending a relationship with a girl has very serious emotional consequences for me. Much greater than those faced by the women (unless she happens to be exceptionally sensitive to being hurt like myself). Which means that on average, a women will basically be able to do almost whatever she wants in a relationship with me. Because the threat of leaving me is much much more painful to me than almost anything she might do. Because of this, I'm basically trying to ensure that I find a women who will do only good things naturally. So although being picky is good...I think my pickiness stems in a lot of ways from fear. I don't think this is a very good framework to be working with. But I'm not really sure how to change it.

P.S.

I've never even been cheated on in my life! So it makes it that much more bizarre that I'm so afraid of it. lol

 

[Bete Noire]

You aren't alone BBoy! I am exactly the same, literally just been reading articles on why the feeling of 'love' can physically hurt as the one major relationship I had gave me this weird stomach pain for a good few days after it ended. What I found was it is indeed all based on anxiety and fear so what you are saying is true

What helped and is helping for me is to open up anyway, you've realized the problem, now use it to your advantage. 'I don't tell many girls this' and disclaimers as such, especially when they come from a true genuine nature, are really powerful and add to the girl feeling even more special around you.

I won't speak for Hector, but I remember reading an article/ forum post of his where he spoke about how much it has hurt over and over again when leaving girls. But he stated you should still do it and the feelings get slightly less painful overtime! I guess it's similar to exposure therapy ^^

Remember you aren't worth any less because someone cheats on you, there's just other master seducers out there

- Rob

 

[ProblemSolving]

Then...even after I distanced myself from religiously following the material here and developed my own views...I experienced a new problem. ...I myself ended up being the guy with whom a lot of women cheat on their BFs with. Moreover, I have lots of girl friends who remorselessly flirt with, trade contact info with, put themselves in situations where sex could happen. Even if they have BFs. So it seems that should they so choose to, most women can drop their BF at the drop of a hat for some other guy. Or have an affair. So basically...a lot of what was written on this site turned out to be correct in regards to how open to cheating a lot (i.e. most) women are given the right circumstances.

Bboy,

The vast majority of guys out there are completely clueless when it comes to maintaining a girl's love, affection, and respect over the long term which is why cheating happens. When you understand how investment works in relationships, you stop worrying about cheating all together. If you don't understand how investment works in relationships, you should be very worried about girls cheating on you.

Chase and Richardus have some absolute gold articles on relationships that completely changed my life. The girlfriends that I bring into my life treat me like a boss and I don't ever have to worry about them cheating provided I keep making them invest in the relationship. Problems only arise when you start acting like a needy pussy which is what most guys do eventually.

That's the thing about managing relationships, you need emotional control and you only get that by having an abundance mindset. If you are more of an emotional guy, then it will take a bit more practice and experience to become a capable leader in your relationships, but the results are well worth it.

In fact, its been six months since my last relationship (which only lasted a total of six months), and if I'm being honest, I still think about her every day.

The fastest way of getting over a past GF is not to bang a lot of chicks. It's to start another relationship with an even better girl. Until you do that, you will tend to focus on the past instead of the future.

Oh and if it's a girlfriend you're after, don't look online. Stick to cold approach and social circle.

 

[Smith]

BBoy,

I think it doesn't matter how good you are at maintaining a relationship, this fear is best confronted with honesty about what you're really afraid of. Most likely a sense of unworthiness from your past when someone close to you abandoned you. On one hand, it's good to know how to maintain a relatioship, but on the other hand, you do have to be comfortable with yourself when a girl actually cheat on you. You can do your best to prevent it from happening, but maybe it will still happen one day. Try meditate and purposely imagine yourself in a situation where ur gf cheats on u and face the feeling and thoughts I have. Even though it's all in your head, but the feelings you have will feel so real. Just sit with the feeling and take a deep breath and breath out releasing the energy inside. You have to love yourself more than you love women. Guys become needy because they love women more than they love themselves. There''s literally nothing you can do to 100% control what other people do. You can only control how you feel about the situation. I can't remember what happened to your last relationship, but I would dive deeper and keep asking myself why I still feel hurt about the break up. Because I used to (and probably still have to some degree) have the same fear as you, but that all came from this one time when I slept with a girl who already have a bf. You attract who you are. Back then, I was insecure and attract girls who were also insecure even though they had a bf. As a result, it makes sense that she would cheat on her bf when her bf wasn't giving her enough attention or whatever. So it's not that all women will cheat on their bfs if given the opportunity, but women who constantly need men's attention to feel secure about themselves will more likely to put themselves in situations where they can get those validation. At least that's my theory anyway.
If you're getting into a relationship and you're constantly paranoid whether she'll cheat on you or not, then it won't be a happy relationship, and most likely she'll cheat on you because she's not happy. See the self-fulfilling prophecy here? Be happy regardless you're in a relationship or not. Sounds hard. But you gotta be happy when you're both single and in a relationship. That's the best place to start with and you attract girls you deserve

 

[WayOfHand]

The fastest way of getting over a past GF is not to bang a lot of chicks. It's to start another relationship with an even better girl. Until you do that, you will tend to focus on the past instead of the future.

Can confirm this one 100%. Also why is it, that pain is such a bad thing? I think most of the forum members are here because they suffered some sort of pain. Pain can show you the way if you only listen. Let pain be your friend, not your enemy.

 

[Bboy100]

Okay, so first thing I'd like to mention is that I'm not sitting here in pain over this past breakup all day every day. Yes, I do think about it on the daily. But on a scale of 1-10, the pain is probably a 2. I'm functioning completely normally. It's not like I've made no progress at all.

It's to start another relationship with an even better girl.

Yeah, I've heard that works for some guys. But I don't want to be dependent on being in a relationship all the time. Cause if I start a new relationship, there's always a chance it too will end. Thereby leaving me feeling the same way. In fact, if I look to this as my solution, I feel like it would only feed into this exact problem I describe in my OP.

Chase and Richardus have some absolute gold articles on relationships that completely changed my life. The girlfriends that I bring into my life treat me like a boss and I don't ever have to worry about them cheating provided I keep making them invest in the relationship. Problems only arise when you start acting like a needy pussy which is what most guys do eventually.

That's the thing about managing relationships, you need emotional control and you only get that by having an abundance mindset. If you are more of an emotional guy, then it will take a bit more practice and experience to become a capable leader in your relationships, but the results are well worth it.

I'm not going to go into this in detail because that would be a post in of itself, but let's agree to disagree on this. I'm opposed to the "relationship management" oriented articles on this site from both a practical and a moral standpoint. It In short, its not that they don't work. They do. But...
1. They don't 100% guarantee you will never get hurt by a women. There's always a chance that things can fall apart. Which on a subconscious level, is what I fear.
2. They create relationships which are ingenuine and manipulative in nature. They keep the girl around and treating you well. But at the cost of genuinity, intimacy, and trust. I don't want that kind of relationship.

Oh and if it's a girlfriend you're after, don't look online. Stick to cold approach and social circle.

Yeah, ik. I don't expect to find GF quality girls online. The only reason I'm online is because I still appreciate the easy hook ups & casual relationships. Even if they're not my objective, it just feels like "why not?". It takes almost no effort at this point, so I might as well. In fact at this point, I give girls online only one date. If they don't fuck me by the end of it, I move on because it's not worth any more of my time.

this fear is best confronted with honesty about what you're really afraid of. Most likely a sense of unworthiness from your past when someone close to you abandoned you. On one hand, it's good to know how to maintain a relatioship, but on the other hand, you do have to be comfortable with yourself when a girl actually cheat on you.

I guess I should elaborate on the issue at hand. The reason why its so painful for me is because I attach to women extremely quickly. This has been getting better as I age and gain experience (I remember when I first started, I would be depressed for a week after a failed date because I felt such a strong "connection" with a women & she doesn't reciprocate. This is no longer a problem). I'm much closer to normal than before. But I'm still an outlier. It's not that I fear losing a women in of itself (which is why I can have casual relationships and there's little to no pain if she leaves me). It's that once I fall for a women, I fall for her much harder than most guys. What feels like a 6 month relationship to most guys probably feels something like 3-5 years to me.

Why does this happen? You're right that there could be some deep rooted psychological reason for it. And its definitely something to explore. But as I understand it, there are also some guys who on a biological level, simply have a stronger propensity for attachment than others. It's not always Psychological. If this is the case for me, then there's nothing I can really do to change it.

The other thing I want to mention is that I disagree when you say that only insecure women will cheat on their BFs. As I understand it, cheating is based more on the situation and less on the person. Ofc the person you choose matters. I'm not saying its not a factor. But I'm just saying...if you're a girl who drinks or is otherwise intoxicated, is ovulating, and is constantly surrounded by aggressive attractive guys, chances of cheating increase no matter how secure you are in yourself and how great your relationship is going. The fact of the matter is, the human species is not meant to be monogamous. Naturally, we are inclined to have one main partner with some straying on the side (this is true for both men and women). This type of behavior is what our most reproductively successful ancestors exhibited. There are many biological indicators of that (e.g. the shapes of our penis, the size of our balls, the fact that 99% of our sperm is used to fight other sperm, not to fertilize etc.). Now ofc...you can choose a women who will usually not put herself in a situation where cheating is likely. But it still could happen every once in a while. You never really know.

Also why is it, that pain is such a bad thing?

Necessary pain isn't bad. Feeling pain for no reason at all is. My issue here is that I can't figure out how to properly screen women because I can't tell if I'm setting the bar too high in terms of "will she hurt me?". But if I adopt the mindset of "pain is good", then I might swing the pendulum to the other side. Cause if pain isn't bad, I might as well date party girls & deal with all the drama it entails right? Cause ultimately, the only downside of that is pain.

Also important to note is that sometimes, too much pain really is a bad thing. It can cause psychological issues (e.g. tell a clinically depressed guy that pain isn't bad and he'll laugh at your face).

 

[JRob]

Hey Bboy,
I don't want to come off as harsh, but there are no guarantees in life or relationships. You can do the best you can and no more. So the real focus is on enjoying your selection. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. (Even if they don't cheat, 10 other things could happen) FYI, you tend to have good post.

 

[Drck]

You are touching Red Pill, and perhaps not even know it LOL... There are more things to consider, for example:

* Unreasonable expectations. We are people, we learn new things, we meet new people in our lives, we adopt new believes... We change overtime, our mindset changes, we believe different things when we are 15 years old, 20, 25, 30, 40,... A girl that is your love today may be insignificant to you several years down the road...

* Seeking something permanent in this world... This world constantly changes, things change, people change... People we really like come to our lives, and the same people leave... That is rather natural cycle, there is nothing permanent in this world...

* Not being independent enough... In essence, if you are seeking happiness (and love) in women, the chances are that you will get hurt. A lot. You are not happy when you are alone, but when you are around girls you get really excited... That is wrong, that is a sign of dependence... Learn to be happy on your own, only then seek girls company...

* Testosterone levels. Believe what you want, today's testosterone levels in younger guys are proven to be very low, chances are that your levels are low as well. This has been discussed here already, in simple summary: The higher the testosterone levels you have the lesser game you need. Vice versa, the lower the testosterone levels have the more you have to "study" seduction. Note that studying seduction is actually quite unnatural process, what you have to pre-think and analyze for weeks and months on seduction sites you could be able to do on the spot with higher level of testosterone.... Conversations tips, being sexy and charming, being dominant and leading, the last 5 percent (or whatever the expression is) - it all simply comes as a package with high-enough testosterone levels, no brains needed... In other words, if you have true desire to fuck it will come on its own, and this desire is impossible without high enough testosterone levels...

If you have high enough testosterone levels, all you really want is just fuck. You don't really care much about game, it comes to you naturally... The girls knows it, they feel it, and they act accordingly to that. The girls will seduce you, the girls will text you, the girls will invite you out - not the other way... No game really needed, perhaps just minimal to make it clear what is is that you really want, and make it easy on them...

* Overall Society, the way it is setup... Many of today's men are weak as fuck. They are not men, they are insecure pussies. They are fucking betanized and domesticated animals, unable to fight. They are too comfortable, too tolerating, too lazy and too fat, too friendly, too compliant, you name it... Again, it comes from the current lifestyle, which brings down testosterone levels… That is reality. Girls don't respect men like that, girls despise men like that. Girls hate weak men, they can have fun with them because they are bored, but there is just no true chemistry, no real attraction to wimps...

I look around and I see it everywhere. Girls dumping guys left and right, girls cheat on guys and LTR boyfriends... I see it in marriages. They are married, everything is great, pictures on their joint Facebook account are just amazing, they get tons of likes from another pairs just like that. It's fucking disgusting those fake lives. Then comes a guy like me or you, and suddenly things change, just as you described. You then realize that the woman doesn't really give a fuck about guy she married, about guy who pays for her and takes care of her children, guy who buys her house... She will divorce him without hesitation, she will dump his ass without remorse... You look in her eyes and you see that all she wanted all these years was just a simple MAN. Not a pussy but MAN. She likes her guy, but she doesn’t really give a fuck about him. Painful? Well, but is it really her fault….??

These guys don't have any value as a man; they are weak, compliant and easily replaceable. Nobody respect man like that. I look at these guys and on one side I feel really sorry for them, and on the other I am just disgusted by that fucking weakness. I look at the comments here, and I just feel sorry for many of the guys here. It’s not really the guy's fault - you’ve simply been brainwashed from the minute you stand up on your feet, you don’t really know any better, and you’ve been conditioned to be a fucking donkey of this society… You can’t really change that, but what you can do is realize what is really going on, why is it that no women respect you at first place… Why is it that women don't reply to your texts, why is it that they flake on a date that you setup so anxiously, why is it that they confuse you, why is it that they don't want to date you... WHY?

Relationship Management my ass! Leave that one for pussies... let women worry about whether they can keep you around long enough... Don't be a bitch that begs for pussy's attention, be a fucking man! That is how you get real attention...

If you (any guy who reads this) are pissed, good. You should be pissed by now, I hope you are pissed. Not at me, but at the pussiness that surrounds you, the weakness in which you are swimming in every day....

Anyway, let me tell you something bro, if you worry whether that pussy will keep you or not, if you worry that she will hurt you and leave you, you have already lost. She doesn't really respect you, she can’t respect that…. You are weak and clingy, she can smell your weakness from mile away. Get rid of it, get rid of that fucking weakness, that is how you fucking win…

 

[Smith]

BBoy,

there's nothing wrong in falling harder than other guys when you meet a woman you really love. That's just part of being alive and human. If you can't change it, then embrace it. Like Drck said, you've already lost if you're already thinking about screening for women who won't hurt you, because like you mentioned, even if you choose a woman who doesn't go out drinking much, she might still put herself in a situation once in a while where cheating is likely to occur, and you can't possibly foresee the future and prevent that. If you already know this, then you must know that this risk comes with ANY woman you get into a relatinoship with. You can have the best relationship management and shit could still happen. So what does that leave you? you could either have some faith in your gf and if shit happens, learn crucial conversation to see if things could be fixed or if it's beyond fixing, learn whatever lesson you get out of it, deal with the pain and move on... but you can't hide from getting into a meaningful relationship because of your fear of getting hurt. Shit will always fall apart when you least expect it..not just with women, but in life. It's how you deal with it determines what kinda person you are. If you even crumble at the thought of women cheating on you, then that's exactly what needs to happen to you I'm sorry to say, so you can come out stronger. I'm not saying deliberately sabotage your relationship and make your gf cheat on you, but if you think like that before you start a relationship, you'll become jealous when your gf is out clubbing with her friends, which will push her away.

The other thing I want to mention is that I disagree when you say that only insecure women will cheat on their BFs. As I understand it, cheating is based more on the situation and less on the person. Ofc the person you choose matters. I'm not saying its not a factor. But I'm just saying...if you're a girl who drinks or is otherwise intoxicated, is ovulating, and is constantly surrounded by aggressive attractive guys, chances of cheating increase no matter how secure you are in yourself and how great your relationship is going. The fact of the matter is, the human species is not meant to be monogamous. Naturally, we are inclined to have one main partner with some straying on the side (this is true for both men and women). This type of behavior is what our most reproductively successful ancestors exhibited. There are many biological indicators of that (e.g. the shapes of our penis, the size of our balls, the fact that 99% of our sperm is used to fight other sperm, not to fertilize etc.). Now ofc...you can choose a women who will usually not put herself in a situation where cheating is likely. But it still could happen every once in a while. You never really know.

You're right. Nothing is black and white, but at the end of the day, this is still "kinda" pseudosciency. And I'm not here to argue that with you because I don't care about the science behind why girls cheat. Because those factors are out of your control 99% of the time. Like you said, it's impossible to know when a girl will put herself in a situation where cheating is likely, so what's the point of worrying about it? For me, my approach is I'm only here for a certain number of days on this earth, and I'm going to make the most of it. If I'm happy being in a relationship with a girl, then I'm going to enjoy it and not worry about whether she'll cheat or not. I'm going to go all out and do my best in the relationship. This doesn't mean I do my best to please her so she won't cheat. It just means that if shit happens, I'll communicate in a clear way that will help both of us understand each other and in the long run, help us be happy together. I highly recommend this book "crucial conversation". It has saved my relationship right now from a lot of drama and misunderstanding. If I never read that book, I probably would've broken up with my current gf because I feel "hurt" for what she did. I'm a sensitive soul too, and my gf is surprised by some of the things I get hurt about. There were times when I felt like I've lost control of what it's like to be a "man", but having those conversations only brought us close together because most couples would just avoid arguments or not really get down to the root of the issue, and as a result one person cheats because he/she is not happy. So one thing I've realized since I implemented what I read in this book is that, other people don't necessary understand why you're hurt by the things they do. And it is your responsibility to tell them and work it out with them. If you're scared of being hurt by women, then I suggest you start confronting them whenever you feel hurt. (Read the book first so you know how to confront people without making it worst) If they do something you don't like, you don't have to cut them out of your life and walk away like you said, or even what sometimes people on this forum recommends. You can work it out with them. It really will open up your world because most women don't want to hurt you or cheat on you!
I think I've also posted a similar topic on GC last year and I think Franco gave me a good answer. If you keep being paranoid about whether your gf is cheating or not, then it's going to change the way you act. Everything you do is going to be based on the assumption that "she'll cheat if I don't call her/call her too much/text her too much...", which is a lot different than "This sounds like fun. I'm going to do it with my gf" or "I love my gf, I'm going to call her". The vibe you give out is entirely different, and deep down you know which place you're coming from. It's either from scarcity or abundance. It's important being honest with yourself so you're not fooling yourself you're coming from the place of abundance.

 

[Bboy100]

Smith,

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I don't have any intentions of running away from a great relationship, and I'll do my best not to worry about women cheating on me. Doing anything less would be disrespectful to myself and to her.

So to clarify, here's what this post is really about: I feel like because of this fear of being hurt, I'm uncaliberated in how I choose women. I try too hard to pick women who are "safe" which leaves me with unrealistic expectations. So what I want to do is calibrate myself back to being "reasonable". That is- I do want to screen out women who really are unstable (e.g. a large majority of party girls), but I also don't want to be so picky that I'm left with no dateable women. Seeing as there is no immediate way of eliminating the fear of being hurt itself, how would I go about doing that?

 

[Ambiance]

BBoy-

I know you aren't 100% onboard the Chase train, but here are two things from him that instantly come to mind that helped me out a ton:

Mission- the more you invest in a girl, or the concept of having a partner, as opposed to a mission/higher purpose, the more you set yourself up for a great deal of loss if the girl leaves or you are unsatisfied. Have other things you care about, and know she is always replaceable.

How selective Chase is- it floored me how many criterion Chase has for any girl he keeps around. Like, they all have to have master's degrees and have a certain body type and have an under 2 partner count. At first I thought he was in over his head, then I realized how much abundance he has. Nowadays, I try to emulate him in choosing girlfriends (while keeping in mind I can't ve quite as selective as he is until I have mastered seduction). And I would suggest to you the same. Figure out what is important to you, and even if only 5% of eligible women fit it, you will get them in the long run. (Maybe sooner than you'd think!) I would recommend girls with low partner counts who are more reserved/conservative as a start. Then, follow everything Problemsolving said; he hit the nail on the head.

Always,

Ambiance

 

[Seppuku]

Hey BBoy,

There are already many good answers to your post. I fully agree with ProblemSolving, you should make sure that your girl is more invested than you are in the relationship. It is not manipulative, if it's something you did from the very beginning, that becomes the "norm" and defines your relationship from start. That really helps if you can achieve that. Her investment in you, not the other way around.

I'm also very much on board with Drck - except on relationship management, it's not just for pussies LOL. Always remember that your girl feed from your strength. You should keep a position of strength at all times, and avoid excessive demonstrations of insecurities, fears and weakness. We all have our weaknesses, it's OK to have them. But it's just that she doesn't need to know about them. Over the long term, this destroys the image she has of you. It's a little bit like being the boss. You need to maintain your image of strength in order to keep the respect.

For this purpose, it will help you tremendously if you can always keep at all times a mindset of abundance and outcome independence. That means basically never staying out of touch with game for too long. Not being afraid of losing the girl, because you know you can get another one very quickly, also helps you to keep your position of strength.

Regarding screening. Hector recently had an article describing the myriad of reasons a girl would want to be in a relationship. One of them is "because she just wants to be with you". It's the only valid reason, exactly like he concludes. These girls are the one that you need to find. Not the ones who want to marry because mama said so. Not the ones who can't wait to upgrade their relationship status on FB. Not the one who mainly seek security, or money, or status, or how good it will make them look. Etc... Always seek to find out what is her real motivation.

Finally, I remember you wrote that you are mainly with younger girls, like 18 to 23. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is the age of experimentation. Relationships come easier with slightly older girls.

Okay, it's a lot of food for thoughts in all these posts. Good luck with you!

Seppuku

 

[Smith]

So to clarify, here's what this post is really about: I feel like because of this fear of being hurt, I'm uncaliberated in how I choose women. I try too hard to pick women who are "safe" which leaves me with unrealistic expectations. So what I want to do is calibrate myself back to being "reasonable". That is- I do want to screen out women who really are unstable (e.g. a large majority of party girls), but I also don't want to be so picky that I'm left with no dateable women. Seeing as there is no immediate way of eliminating the fear of being hurt itself, how would I go about doing that?

There is really no "safe"choice, unless you want to marry a girl and move into the woods and cut contact from the outside world. Even then... a hunter might accidentally walk in and steal your woman lol. so it doesn't matter who you choose, your mind will always imagine a crazy scenario that will threaten its identity. Being safe is what your ego wants. And I'm sure you know you have to push your comfort zone and not be content with the "safe choice"if you want to live a fulfilled life. Even if you're with a girl with the right morale and standards, there will always be that little discofort/fear deep inside you that's just waiting to explode. I know this because I've experienced it before. It's like there's no logical reason for my gf to cheat, but because of my fear, I'm blowing things up out of proportion, and when I look back I''m like wtf was I thinking. The only way to really eliminate this fear is to go through it yourself and be aware of it when you're in that pain body mode. If you can sit through that pain and deal with the situation calmly, then congrats you're one step closer to eliminating that fear. You can start by exposing yourself more with every girl, not just the girl you really want to date since those girls don't come often. Most of the time, the girl doesn't reject who we are. We reject who we are. We're afraid to show some parts of ourselves because we're afraid of being hurt, but that means you're actually abandoning yourself. The more you abandon who you are, the more you'll get hooked on external validations to feel good. I think just keep asking yourself, why you're afraid of being hurt and keep going down that train of whys until you feel uncomfortable telling the truth, then you'll know where the problem is. I'm sure you don't need more pick up skills and tips on relationship management. Those things are easy to do when you have no fear.

 

[Bboy100]

I think just keep asking yourself, why you're afraid of being hurt and keep going down that train of whys until you feel uncomfortable telling the truth

Ok, down the rabbit hole we go!

1. Why am I afraid of being hurt so much?
Because its unbelievably painful.
2. Why is it so painful?
Because relationships carry with them a sense of intimacy, love, support & general mutual understanding which cannot fully be mimicked by any other type of relationship. Plus, in my experience, sex with someone I love is more enjoyable than almost any other type (feel free to disagree with me on that one!).
3. Why does it hurt me so much to lose this particular type of relationship?
Because this sense of intimacy makes me feel complete. So when I lose it, it feels like I'm losing a part of myself.
4. Why does it make me feel complete/ what "part" of me is the relationship?
Well, as I said before, it provides a constant stream of love, support, understanding, validation etc.

So I guess if this train of thought is correct, then it would follow that I'm missing a sense of self-love, I don't believe in myself, I feel unworthy etc. Which would be why losing a relationship hurts so much.

Here's the problem: This line of thought is very contradictory to how I normally feel about myself. Cause in general, I feel like I'm a pretty high self-esteem person. I have a pretty great deal of self-love. I always think I deserve the best. I work hard for what I want. I stand up for myself. I'm proud of myself. I accept all parts of who I am ...and so on.

So I'm not really sure how to sort this out.

P.S.

None of this is uncomfortable for me to admit. So it seems I've hit a road block before I've even gotten to the really deep stuff haha.

Ambiance,

I actually don't disagree with Chase about either of those things. I just think they're not very applicable to this situation.

Mission- Yes, having a "mission" is helpful. Even though I had relative abundance with women even before I graduated college, I've hit a whole new level ever since. Namely because I have a job I'm proud to get up in the morning and do. So dating is almost like a game to me at this point. If I lose...oh well, its nbd. I just go back to doing something important. Unfortunately, this only applies to dates with girls I don't yet have a strong connection with. Once I've spent some time and opened up to a girl, it still hurts a lot to lose her. It would probably hurt even more if I didn't have this job & my group of friends to fall back on as a safety net. But nonetheless, its still painful enough that it creates problems for me.

Chase's Stringent Criteria- I have an equally long and specific list of thing I look for in a women (I just didn't write it because its not relevant to this post). I don't think there's anything wrong with being picky. The problem is that this criteria- the one about being unlikely to hurt me comes from a sense of fear. Not from a standpoint of intelligent mate selection.

Seppaku,

I disagree with most of what you wrote. I've already addressed why via my discussions with Hector & a few others across multiple threads in excruciating detail (Note: It may not be immediately obvious how these threads are relevant to the discussion at hand, but if you put the pieces together, you'll see it):
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15270
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15342
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15350
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15820

Admittedly, in those threads we talk more about seduction (although I do briefly talk about "relationship management" in the third thread I linked), I think that in general, the ideas you guys have are mostly just a different shade of the same basic concept: "Present a certain image to the girl which may or may not be who I actually am via a bunch of tactics and techniques. Some of which are manipulative in nature".

If you're interested in my thoughts on the matter, feel free to check those threads out. If not, that's totally understandable. Ultimately, weather I'm right or wrong, it all comes down to what works best for you

Just as an added bonus: https://markmanson.net/power-in-vulnerability
^There's TONS of research to support this. And it flies directly in the face of all relationship management tools. Because, it requires that you show your cards and let her know who you truly are instead of trying to keep up this image of being Mr. Superbadass-alpha-masculine-manlyman

Cause in reality, there will be moments in which you feel the exact opposite of that (unless you're a robot and not a human being. In which case, keep on truckin )

 

[Smith]

Here's the problem: This line of thought is very contradictory to how I normally feel about myself. Cause in general, I feel like I'm a pretty high self-esteem person. I have a pretty great deal of self-love. I always think I deserve the best. I work hard for what I want. I stand up for myself. I'm proud of myself. I accept all parts of who I am ...and so on.

'

Well it's easy to convince yourself consciously that you're awesome, especially if you've done pick up for a while and have a bit of success with women, because you're basing your self-esteem from that. but if deep down, you don't feel completely happy, then you know subconsciously there's some stuff you don't want to find out, and you'll always find ways to self-sabaotage your relationship, even if they're actually going great.

2. Why is it so painful?
Because relationships carry with them a sense of intimacy, love, support & general mutual understanding which cannot fully be mimicked by any other type of relationship. Plus, in my experience, sex with someone I love is more enjoyable than almost any other type (feel free to disagree with me on that one!).
3. Why does it hurt me so much to lose this particular type of relationship?
Because this sense of intimacy makes me feel complete. So when I lose it, it feels like I'm losing a part of myself.
4. Why does it make me feel complete/ what "part" of me is the relationship?
Well, as I said before, it provides a constant stream of love, support, understanding, validation etc.
So I guess if this train of thought is correct, then it would follow that I'm missing a sense of self-love, I don't believe in myself, I feel unworthy etc. Which would be why losing a relationship hurts so much.

Ask yourself this. What do you hate about yourself? be honest. It's easy to say I love this part and this part about myself, but it's very hard to admit what you hate about yourself. Think of a scenario where you were being shamed for being who you are and you feel unjust and angry, but you were powerless to do anything about it. It's not easy to live through your past traumatic experience, but it's the stuff that's being shoved away because it's just too painful to deal with. The next step is about re-owning that part of you and accept that part of yourself.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey BBoy,

I've already addressed why via my discussions with Hector & a few others across multiple threads in excruciating detail (Note: It may not be immediately obvious how these threads are relevant to the discussion at hand, but if you put the pieces together, you'll see it)

Yes, I have followed these discussions from afar.

I disagree with most of what you wrote.

It is alright, we don't have to agree. And I'm not here to convince you. I am trying to be helpful by telling you what I genuinely believe is true.

Always remember that your girl feed from your strength. You should keep a position of strength at all times, and avoid excessive demonstrations of insecurities, fears and weakness. We all have our weaknesses, it's OK to have them. But it's just that she doesn't need to know about them. Over the long term, this destroys the image she has of you. It's a little bit like being the boss. You need to maintain your image of strength in order to keep the respect.

I hope at least you will keep this one in mind. This is not coming from hours of reading internet. This is coming from real life experience, a fifteen years relationship with a woman, realizing in hindsight what worked, and what didn't.

"Present a certain image to the girl which may or may not be who I actually am via a bunch of tactics and techniques. Some of which are manipulative in nature".

Here, it's me who disagrees. At the end of the day, all this is about mindset. Mindsets can be changed. New mindsets can be acquired. Once it is fully internalized, a mindset becomes a part of you. It becomes you. Then it's not about faking. It's not tactics or techniques. It's who you are. And some mindsets are more useful than others. It's about acquiring the right mindset.

Talking about manipulation, girls have myriads of ways of getting what they want from you, many of these extremely subtle. And they won't hesitate to employ them. So you don't want to be manipulative, and be genuine, good, but just be ready.

If you're interested in my thoughts on the matter, feel free to check those threads out. If not, that's totally understandable. Ultimately, weather I'm right or wrong, it all comes down to what works best for you

Here we agree. I can see how you managed to make it work for you, while simultaneously rejecting (lack of better word) some of the main ideas explained here. What matters in the end is that you somehow made it work.

Because, it requires that you show your cards and let her know who you truly are instead of trying to keep up this image of being Mr. Superbadass-alpha-masculine-manlyman

Not image. Mindset, again. And you should have no qualms about playing the masculine game. Girls will not hesitate to play their own game.

Alright I made my point. I hope at least you appreciate that many guys here took the time to write an elaborate answer to help you.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Bboy100]

Seppaku (and others),

I reread my last few posts in this thread, and I realize that I've come off like I'm instantly dismissing the things you guys say as irrelevant or wrong without even looking at them. I apologize for that. I certainly see some merit in your ideas. I only took the time to write my objections to them, but not to write what I think is right because there's no point in discussing the things we agree on. As there is no new information to be exchanged. So I want all of you to know that I do appreciate the input. Sorry if I came off like a dick.

Case in point...

Always remember that your girl feed from your strength. You should keep a position of strength at all times, and avoid excessive demonstrations of insecurities, fears and weakness. We all have our weaknesses, it's OK to have them. But it's just that she doesn't need to know about them. Over the long term, this destroys the image she has of you. It's a little bit like being the boss. You need to maintain your image of strength in order to keep the respect.

I hope at least you will keep this one in mind. This is not coming from hours of reading internet. This is coming from real life experience, a fifteen years relationship with a woman, realizing in hindsight what worked, and what didn't.

I partially agree with this. Yeah, if you become a steaming pile of emotions, insecurities and neediness, ofc the women will begin to lose respect for and resent you. But the part I disagree with is that ALWAYS have to maintain this image of being unbreakable.

Because
#1. I think that's mostly impossible. If we try to hide our emotions (especially around someone who sees us on a regular basis for a long period of time), they will eventually come spilling out when we can no longer hold them in.
#2. I can express an insecurity I have to a women as long as I do it in a calm and collected manner (e.g. I don't sound like a child throwing a tantrum) and that its appropriate that I tell her this information given the amount of time I've known her (e.g. it would be bad for me to tell a women I just met pretty much any of the stuff I've written in this thread. Because that's oversharing and comes off as uncaliberated or even crazy). If done correctly and at the right time, I think talking about insecurities (especially those which directly affect the relationship) actually shows STRENGTH, not WEAKNESS. Because If I have the balls to tell her about something which she could judge & reject me on very deep and personal level for, I'm effectively I'm communicating "I'm telling you this thing which you could use to hurt me. But I'm secure enough in myself that even if you do, I will survive". Whereas if I try to hide insecurities all the time, I'm basically living in fear. I'm saying "I don't dare tell you this thing about me because I think that if you reject it, I'll be completely crushed".

See the irony here? Sharing insecurities (at the appropriate time! I can't stress this enough!), is one of the easiest ways to show that as a whole you're secure in yourself. Whereas trying to hide insecurities is an easy way to show that you are insecure.

Girls will not hesitate to play their own game.

This is a generalization. Yes, a good majority of girls will play some sort of games (as will most men). But there are also some girls who are genuine. I don't care for former. As far as relationships go, I screen in only the latter.

P.S. Although I admittedly don't have nearly as much experience with relationships as you, its still based on personal experience, not just reading. I think my ability to be vulnerable with girls is the main reason I have such great relationships with the girls I meet in the first place. Without it, women would be nothing more than cumdumpsters for me. Because its impossible to develop a real connection and intimacy with a women if she doesn't know about and accept the things I care about most (some of which are insecurities or perceived weaknesses of mine)

Smith,

Ask yourself this. What do you hate about yourself?

Hmm, I've never looked at it through this lens. Mainly because I usually don't like to focus on the negative (unless there's a lesson to be learned from it). But I can see how there might be some merit to this strategy here. I'll think about this and let you guys know what I discover.

 

[ProblemSolving]

Bboy,

You know I like you, but you admit it yourself that you have very little relationship experience, so all this relationship talk is essentially mental masterbation at this point. Seppuku and I have been down this road many times and the results are very predictable. Act like a pussy for long enough and any girl will cheat on you or if she's nice, she'll just dump you. Maybe not immediately, but sooner or later she will.

It's not unlike a parent-child relationship. When kids grow up with parents who love AND discipline them, they tend to be loving and respectful themselves. But when kids grow up with loving parents who neglect to discipline them, they tend to be disrespectful little shits.

This is something you are going to have to try yourself. Try being Mr. Intimate in your next relationship, then report back here in two years and rub it in our face... or maybe you'll see things our way.

At any rate, women are amazing and I love them to death, but don't act like a pussy or there is a high probability that you will get fucked.

 

[Seppuku]

Bboy,

But the part I disagree with is that ALWAYS have to maintain this image of being unbreakable.

Yes, here we agree. It is impossible to maintain it always. But there are still a number of things best to avoid - like seeking emotional support.

Alright, one example from my ex-life as married man. One big relationship killer during my married years was me, complaining about some tense situations I was going through at work. I thought it was alright to do so within my couple. Somewhat like what you say, I thought that we could afford to be genuine and openly discuss these things. After all, as my wife she's supposed to hear me, and support me, right? What this did instead is, it gradually eroded the image - and respect - she had of me. She needed to know I was in control. With my candid telling of work problems, not only I didn't get support from her, but I started getting a difficult situation at home, too. Mistake, mistake.

The way I would do now (not going to happen because I'm not planning to marry again , but let's just assume). If I face problems at work, I find a good buddy and open to him. The professional domain is my realm, she doesn't need to know. And it's not her job to help me with this, even emotionally.

But there are also some girls who are genuine. I don't care for former. As far as relationships go, I screen in only the latter.

Yes, there are genuine girls, and that's the positive message! These are the ones who are with you because they "just want to be with you". Even these ones, though, will use their games to get what they want from you.

One example from recent past. She's a real sweetheart. She wakes up in the morning to kiss you before going to office, and when you come back she greets you warmly. You just know she genuinely likes you. Then one day she brings you with her to shopping (big mistake). "Darling, I don't have enough money to buy this wonderful watch!" (the watch is worth 2000$...). She has her way to ask, and it's coming out of the blue. Either you bow (it's 2000$, plus this opens the door to tons of problems down the road). Or you stay firm "No!". But now she couldn't get the watch and she makes you feel it's your fault. Later on, all this is forgotten, relationship is going well, and you agree on making plans for vacation. All good. But now, she comes back with the watch story. She really wants you to buy this watch after all. It is implied from the context that she may not come to holidays as planned otherwise. Thanks god you didn't purchase the plane tickets yet. Etc... The strength of your frame is always, always tested and challenged. It never ends. All this requires nerves of steel. Even from genuine girls.

Okay. We don't agree and I am not trying to convince you. Like ProblemSolving said, there is nothing like learning from direct experience. And it is a very valid goal to desire a relationship. Keep an open mind of what was said here, get into one serious relationship, and in two years from now just reevaluate for yourself if this makes sense or not.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Rain]

I have similar thoughts to Bboy in that, the whole, how do you know 100% for sure, that someone won't cheat? Even if you do your very best in screening, is it a risk you just have to accept? If family offspring came into it, would you always need to get a dna test? But then, even further, what if she thinks ahead too, and knows someone in dna who can give a false test to keep you around? Or is that too much 'paranoia'? I have a brain that, sometimes, thinks of a lot of 'what if' scenarios.

Someone above said self fulfilling prophecy and yeah, not sure if it was here or another site, but if you accuse your partner of cheating, and she isn't, she might anyway because 'well he's accusing me anyway and already thinks I do so I might as well' or something? Back to what BBoy was saying. I asked a couple who are married about this, and they said something about its maybe a lack of trust and you don't want to go into a relationship with that niggling feeling on your brain or in the back of your mind that you don't trust them... I guess what if you struggle to trust anyone? Eg the logic comes in and says well you never really know, so its about trust/faith? Especially with all the stuff floating around that 1/3 of couples have offspring that the paternity is not the woman's partner, I think Anatman had a link to a study on that.

With the emotional support from your long term partner, is that for all women, even the ones that, would what's the word...I may have read this in an article here somewhere, but some women jump ship if yours is sinking, but others would help keep your ship afloat if it got holes in it... it's to do with a woman's personality? On which way she would go, along with how you treat her too? I can't find the article so far. But in that context, the ones who don't jump ship, are they also unable to give emotional support, eg what Seppuku said, is that correct? You can't get/use your partner for emotional support? I'm single but its kinda scary to think about that.