Feminist consent laws nightmare

[Teevster]

I also want to state that in Scandinavia, incl Denmark, the jurisprudence is that the prosecutor has to prove you are guilty (and you are innocent until proven guilty). The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. From reading this thread one can quickly assume that it is the other way around - that the accused has to prove his innocence. It is not.

And if one lands on a whack judge, one has the right to appeal to up to two further instances - the last court is the high/supreme court, which will be constituted of multiple high level judges (which I am pretty sure would adhere to the proper procedures).

Best,
Teevster

 

[Skills]

@Teevster excellent brother destroys the paranoia and the coopers... I know only one dude that got similarly accused in Scandinavia and he was during the spam approach beginning stages and he solved it really easy with public defender if i remember... I will quote all your responses to my prevention of fra post later today for the coopers and paranoia guys From that neck of the woods...if the subject comes up in the future...

 

[Teevster]

@Teevster excellent brother destroys the paranoia and the coopers... I know only one dude that got similarly accused in Scandinavia and he was during the spam approach beginning stages and he solved it really easy with public defender if i remember... I will quote all your responses to my prevention of fra post later today for the coopers and paranoia guys From that neck of the woods...if the subject comes up in the future...

Again, note that I based myself on Scandvinavian consent laws, as well as Scandinavian jurisprudence and legal practices. It may (and likely does) differ in other countries.

Also, I do not know anything about OPs case, and I am aware that no legal system is perfect, and that sometimes, things go array. I amnot denying this could happen. To make myself a clear opinion on this case, I would need to read the court report (which are generally made public, but anonymyzed).

On a different note: paranoia is unhealthy, but being responsible and taking pre-cautions is totally warranted. It is in my book totally OK to miss a few lays by playing it ("too") safe. If one is unsure about consent, it is better to be careful and let it go, than regretting. This may contradict certain schools of pick up and seduction, but so be it (those schools are built on outdated mindsets introduced during a time where consent laws were more relaxed - and honestly often pretty outdated - like the danish one which claimed that if there were no signs of violence or force, then there is no rape - I mean... come on!).

-Teevster

 

[Ratata]

Because Denmark had passed a consent based law. So now you don't need evidence. The judges just decide which story they want to believe the most. It is a radical shift from all other type of criminal cases. Now evidence is nothing, even witnesses which i had many of where just put aside because all that matters is what happened in the seconds that you were having sex. In other words who is telling the best story.

Sorry, I refuse to believe that "that's all the evidence you need." Even with so-called "consent laws." You can't first consent (which she clearly did), and then suddenly change your mind after the fact. In a court of law, it's the job of the the prosecutor to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that she didn't consent. And it's your lawyer's to prove that she did consent. Again, beyond any reasonable doubt. Then it's indeed up to the judges, and what they believe seems most logical.

But if you weren't even given the opportunity to lay forth your case, then that's a clear case of miscarriage of justice. That's a human rights violation. Certainly, you should never have accepted the verdict, and you should have taken the case to a higher court. The Supreme Court even, or The Hague. You may still have the opportunity to do this, by the way. And if what you say is true, then I think you should!

Edit: I should add that I've bathroompulled in Scandinavia several times without issue. Here's what's going for you when you do this: It's on CCTV that she was horny. Her friends saw that she was horny. Your friends saw that she was horny. The staff saw that she was horny. I'd say that this gives you fairly good odds. Especially if she's the one pushing you into the wall while making out with you (gold move). The one girl who suddenly blew up in my face, turned out to be a long-term gf who really just wanted revenge. Thank God she never took things further though. But that stuff scared the shit outta me. Thankfully she settled with the fact that she was the one who was unfaithful, so then we were like "even." Bro, am I glad I'm out of that shit! So, bottom line, try to stay away from crazy bitches. But sometimes you don't know until you know...

 

[Teevster]

Sorry, I refuse to believe that "that's all the evidence you need." Even with so-called "consent laws." You can't first consent (which she clearly did), and then suddenly change your mind after the fact. In a court of law, it's the job of the the prosecutor to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that she didn't consent. And it's your lawyer's to prove that she did consent. Again, beyond any reasonable doubt. Then it's indeed up to the judges, and what they believe seems most logical.

The burden of proof still lies on the accuser. At least if we are to believe this jurist from the University of Copenhagen:

Fire sejlivede myter om samtykkeloven

Den omdiskuterede samtykkelov fylder i 2023 to år. KU-professor afliver nogle af de sejlivede myter, der er opstået i kølvandet af den nye lov.

nyheder.ku.dk

-Teevster

 

[Teevster]

Sorry, I refuse to believe that "that's all the evidence you need." Even with so-called "consent laws." You can't first consent (which she clearly did), and then suddenly change your mind after the fact. In a court of law, it's the job of the the prosecutor to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that she didn't consent.

Unless I am mistaken, consent can be retracted at any point during the intercourse. Unless I am mistaken, a court would like to ensure, at least in principle that consent was there (and maintained) throughout the whole intercourse. Affirmative consent laws does not rule out the "opt out" option.

Translated into seduction language: as long as she seems eager and excited (give clear signs that she wants to), you have consent. If she turns cold (or it becomes unclear whether she wants to continue or not), you stop.

-Teevster

 

[Ratata]

You're completely correct, Teev! In cases like this, the case often gets dismissed because there's no real evidence either way. The only thing the court has are the opposing statements.

The defence may still present evidence of innocence, though—like witnesses—because anything that weakens the prosecution's story matters. When it's word-against-word like in this case, the question becomes: who is more credible? If there's nothing beyond the accuser's claim and the accused's denial, then the court has to rely on whatever proof actually exists. And that should also be beyond reasonable doubt, which it can't be if the only thing that exists is the claim of some crazy bitch. That's why witnesses and any physical evidence—like CCTV—become extremely important.

Moreover, the claim is that the judges dismissed actual evidence because of a prior court case—and a case that proved him innocent, no less! This is simply not admissible in court. If it was used as "evidence" against his case, then that's also miscarriage of justice, and IMHO the morons who judged this case should be fired. Sorry, it riles me up to hear such stupidity! I say take this shitshow to the supreme court or The Hague! You've suffered the most severe injustice a man can experience: To be jailed despite being innocent.

 

[Teevster]

You're completely correct, Teev! In cases like this, the case often gets dismissed because there's no real evidence either way. The only thing the court has are the opposing statements.

The defence may still present evidence of innocence, though—like witnesses—because anything that weakens the prosecution's story matters. When it's word-against-word like in this case, the question becomes: who is more credible? If there's nothing beyond the accuser's claim and the accused's denial, then the court has to rely on whatever proof actually exists. And that should also be beyond reasonable doubt, which it can't be if the only thing that exists is the claim of some crazy bitch. That's why witnesses and any physical evidence—like CCTV—become extremely important.

Agreed. I am nitpicking here - but the defendant has no obligation to present evidence (but totally should! for the reasons you state! obviously!) whereas the accuser has the obligation to do it. The main burden lies on the accuser. The way your post came off as, is (and I may have misread it) that the defendant has any "burden of proof". He/she does not.

Moreover, the claim is that the judges dismissed actual evidence because of a prior court case—and a case that proved him innocent, no less! This is simply not admissible in court. If it was used as "evidence" against his case, then that's also miscarriage of justice, and IMHO the morons who judged this case should be fired. Sorry, it riles me up to hear such stupidity! I say take this shitshow to the supreme court or The Hague! You've suffered the most severe injustice a man can experience: To be jailed despite being innocent.

Totally, and miscarriage of justice can happen. It is exactly for this reason that one has the right to appeal! and if this was a clear case of miscarriage of justice (e.g. judging based on a past accusation on which one has been deemed innocent), any sane lawyer would suggest appeal to a higher instance. I doubt that two instances would make this mistake twice. But what do I know.

-Teevster

 

[mirror]

My big dillema is this; I am 24 she is 26. I have a drive to conquer. Plans to travel internationally and work. Plans to get to the top of the luxury hospitality industry where i work. I love women. I could have avoided all this tragedy if i always screened for crazy girls. Mind you i have been with a fair amount of women. But i feel the drive to be part of another womens life. I can't explain it.

It keeps revisiting me and today i met a lot of stunning girls at work and they were all over me like i was their favourite toy. I would love to date some of them.

Case of 'grass is always greener on the other side'

But my girlfriend is great too. She is pushing right now for us to live together, the next thing is going to be babys.

Is this what you want?(1)
Is this what you want with her?(2)

I frankly don't want to live with her because i want my own space. I want children but not before i am in a good place career wise and have lived my life. I do feel i owe my girlfriend alot!! She has been through all of jail with me.

well how much is it worth to you. Dont think of you owing her. But if it happens again, would you rather have her or someone you dont know this about?

I am afraid that if i don't man up and decide what i want we might end up with children and then split.

tell her you fear this.

The biggest thing holding me from breaking up with her is that i don't feel i am entitled too.

Bad reason to stay in a relationship you dont want to be in. You dont want to be with her? Own up to it. She is still young, she will find someone else that values her. The worst you could do to her is stay with her when you dont actually want to. You can tell her you are willing to be friends or tell her she can count on you in her bad times, if you feel like you owe her.

I need advice from you guys.
What would you do in my situation?

Talk with partner. Get air cleared. Decide together whether a breakup is appropriate.

 

[Skills]

Edit: I should add that I've bathroompulled in Scandinavia several times without issue. Here's what's going for you when you do this: It's on CCTV that she was horny. Her friends saw that she was horny. Your friends saw that she was horny. The staff saw that she was horny. I'd say that this gives you fairly good odds. Especially if she's the one pushing you into the wall while making out with you (gold move). The one girl who suddenly blew up in my face, turned out to be a long-term gf who really just wanted revenge. Thank God she never took things further though. But that stuff scared the shit outta me. Thankfully she settled with the fact that she was the one who was unfaithful, so then we were like "even." Bro, am I glad I'm out of that shit! So, bottom line, try to stay away from crazy bitches. But sometimes you don't know until you know...

^ @Ratata can you clarify your bathroom pull, are you saying the friends saw you take her to the bathroom ( this blows my mind, maybe i need to move there if this is the case), and the staff as well?? doesn't sound right..... In USA the friends will likely cockblock, the staff will kick you out of the club.... Bathroom pulls happens cause the friends were comfortable with and her together and they are distracted, and the staff never saw it....

The last nitpick is "keep away crazy bitches" the girls i ever had that would do "crazy bitches" type of actions were the most decent normal girls, and they went crazy out of the blue..... My point is there is not really a bullet proof predictable way to say when a normal girls will flip and snap and go crazy....

But yes obviously most guys will keep away from "the crazy bitches" but i not always those girls that go crazy the source of the issue...

Also in snl and ons there is not way to get to know fully women you are pulling in such short amount of time, yes you get the red flags here and there like don gaily girls in the sample.... But is not always clear...

 

[Ratata]

^ @Ratata can you clarify your bathroom pull, are you saying the friends saw you take her to the bathroom ( this blows my mind, maybe i need to move there if this is the case), and the staff as well?? doesn't sound right..... In USA the friends will likely cockblock, the staff will kick you out of the club.... Bathroom pulls happens cause the friends were comfortable with and her together and they are distracted, and the staff never saw it....

The last nitpick is "keep away crazy bitches" the girls i ever had that would do "crazy bitches" type of actions were the most decent normal girls, and they went crazy out of the blue..... My point is there is not really a bullet proof predictable way to say when a normal girls will flip and snap and go crazy....

But yes obviously most guys will keep away from "the crazy bitches" but i not always those girls that go crazy the source of the issue...

Also in snl and ons there is not way to get to know fully women you are pulling in such short amount of time, yes you get the red flags here and there like don gaily girls in the sample.... But is not always clear...

No, they wouldn't see me take the girl to the bathroom. Not directly, anyway. Unless unlucky, for instance with a friend skulking about near the stalls. But even then, unless she got spooked by it, I'd still get the lay. Same thing even with makeouts, it's just not something I'd do in front of her friends lol! Same deal, really. But if we're caught, we're caught.

Heh, come to think of it, one time someone even tried to sneak a camera under the stall to photograph us in there in the freaking loo with a girl... Horrible shit! But the guy was taken away by his friends, so they defo knew we were in there. And so we stayed there fairly long before going back out to make sure they were gone... Not the best night.

So friends would often see me interact with the girl beforehand, and after, and see that she was into me. Or they'd see me walk off with the girl, with her coming along willingly. If we're talking law, those are all tell-tale signs of cooperation and consent. This is what I'm talking about.

Also if there is a cock-blocky situation, I'll even ask the crowd "Hey, can I borrow her for a second, gonna show her something, we'll be right back." They're usually ok with this, meanwhile trying to steal her away can awaken reactions. And with her coming with me willingly, especially if there's a "hell yes" attitude, her even begging her best friend to go (or more like it, they'd both be out to get some), then there will likely be zero problems. Though obviously, if I told her friends, "Hey, I'm taking yoru girl to the bathroom" I'm fairly sure I'd be stopped. Or idk that would be kj cuz I never tried lol.

Come to think of it, there was this one girl who told me, in front of her friends "I hope you don't follow me to the bathroom" and then winked to me after I told her in no uncertain terms that I unabashedly was attracted to her... She must've thought it was bold. So yeah, I disobeyed that order straight away, and found her waiting for me down there lol!

These days I don't go for bathroom pulls though. For one, they've locked it down at most clubs. They keep really good guard against it most places, since they don't really want it for several reasons. Also, don't forget the would-be white knights and cockblocks out there, salivating at the opportunity to stop any good times. Though for me personally, I just enjoy doing it in a bed way more. Maybe I'm getting old...

 

[Skills]

No, they wouldn't see me take the girl to the bathroom. Not directly, anyway. Unless unlucky, for instance with a friend skulking about near the stalls. But even then, unless she got spooked by it, I'd still get the lay. Same thing even with makeouts, it's just not something I'd do in front of her friends lol! Same deal, really. But if we're caught, we're caught.

Heh, come to think of it, one time someone even tried to sneak a camera under the stall to photograph us in there in the freaking loo with a girl... Horrible shit! But the guy was taken away by his friends, so they defo knew we were in there. And so we stayed there fairly long before going back out to make sure they were gone... Not the best night.

So friends would often see me interact with the girl beforehand, and after, and see that she was into me. Or they'd see me walk off with the girl, with her coming along willingly. If we're talking law, those are all tell-tale signs of cooperation and consent. This is what I'm talking about.

Also if there is a cock-blocky situation, I'll even ask the crowd "Hey, can I borrow her for a second, gonna show her something, we'll be right back." They're usually ok with this, meanwhile trying to steal her away can awaken reactions. And with her coming with me willingly, especially if there's a "hell yes" attitude, her even begging her best friend to go (or more like it, they'd both be out to get some), then there will likely be zero problems. Though obviously, if I told her friends, "Hey, I'm taking yoru girl to the bathroom" I'm fairly sure I'd be stopped. Or idk that would be kj cuz I never tried lol.

Come to think of it, there was this one girl who told me, in front of her friends "I hope you don't follow me to the bathroom" and then winked to me after I told her in no uncertain terms that I unabashedly was attracted to her... She must've thought it was bold. So yeah, I disobeyed that order straight away, and found her waiting for me down there lol!

These days I don't go for bathroom pulls though. For one, they've locked it down at most clubs. They keep really good guard against it most places, since they don't really want it for several reasons. Also, don't forget the would-be white knights and cockblocks out there, salivating at the opportunity to stop any good times. Though for me personally, I just enjoy doing it in a bed way more. Maybe I'm getting old...

yea^ this makes sense, the way you wrote the edit made it sound a bit weird, this clarification is good...