First Date Deal Breakers

[Bboy100]

Ok, so my dating trend has recently become as follows:
Go on date>Girl likes me> I escalate to making out or beyond>Girl leaves on good terms> Girl Doesn't reply to my texts and I never see her again.

Am I doing something fundamentally wrong on my dates? More generally speaking, what are some common "deal breakers" for girls. That is to say, what are things which will cause a girl to ignore me, even if she initially liked me, called me cute etc.
Does anyone see problems with my process? If not, what are some general issues most guys will face other than not being high enough value/socially caliberated.

A few other things people on the forums have already pointed out to me:
1. Kissing in public is a no no. Recently stopped doing this.
2. Perhaps its good to not kiss a girl at all and keep a reletively non-sexual vibe on a first date if I know I can't close. <---I'm afraid I'll get friend zoned or otherwise be too low value if I do this. Also, I never really know if I'll be able to close. Because sometimes I'll run into LMR, sometimes I won't. Thoughts?
3. Missed Escalation Windows. Even though I eventually kiss a girl and eventually try to escalate, my dates usually last 3+ hours. So I might be doing it too late. What does an EW look like? How do I know that now is the time to act?
4. Logging onto Tinder after a "good date"? I feel like this isn't a problem though. Because in order for a girl to see this, she herself has to log in. Also, if this was an issue, girls would probably stop replying to me if I log onto Tinder after setting up a date with them. This doesn't seem to happen. Just wanted to mention this as an idea.
5. Maybe I'm too high value and girls are auto-rejecting me? I feel like I'm not really an asshole on most my dates though and I always escalate, so my value should feel pretty accessible.

 

[ray_zorse]

The rules completely change once you have penetrated her. After that you're stamped "approved for mating". If she were to reject you after that it would be like admitting she made a poor mating decision. In a girl's emotional mind everything is malleable, but tries to be made to fit the known facts.

On the other hand if you didn't penetrate her, the morning after you're stamped "too weak for mating", regardless of how the date went. Regardless of her emotions in the moment, her emotions are rewritten to "I didn't like him much on the date". This fits the known facts (you didn't penetrate her). Minor inconvenient details, such as excitable text messages she may have sent you, are simply brushed aside.

So, seal the deal on the night. Then the only thing you have to deal with is buyers' remorse, which is essentially an attainability issue. If you genuinely did like her, and made that known to her on the date, and were warm to her before and after sex, and sent the post-sex text etc, you should not have too many issues. Note this also applies if you penetrated her with a semi, couldn't finish, or similar issues.

Obviously there are exceptions, if she agreed to a second date then most probably you didn't escalate, or were prevented by circumstances, or you disqualified yourself as a lover but still present other value, or she just really, really, likes you... or she has a dick? hehe JK hope it helps.

Ray

PS You asked about EW. An EW is an opportunity to move forward. It may occur naturally, such as you've been connecting well and the conversation falls away slightly, that's your opportunity to say "anyway, let's get out of here"... or whatever is appropriate to the circumstances, if you do not she will say "uhh... nice meeting you, I had better find my friends" etc... or the window is created by her, e.g. "where do you live?" or "do you have housemates" -> girlspeak for "take me to your house right now". A whole book can be written on EW which you will learn through bitter, painful experience. Long story short, after missed EW your value and attainability tank and she hates you, but will pretend all is fine and nothing changed (she's still into you, or she only ever saw you as a friend), but will throw up roadblocks.

PPS If your dates are 3hrs you are definitely missing windows, if you cast your mind back with an extremely critical eye you can almost always pinpoint them. It's such an "aha" moment, because they can be extremely subtle, yet jump right out at you when you sift all available evidence. Detailed FRs really help too, either you will notice the missed window in the course of writing the FR or someone else will.

 

[Bboy100]

if she agreed to a second date then most probably you didn't escalate

Being that there are exceptions to this, I'm guessing this is just a guideline as opposed to a universal rule?

So then maybe it would be better to put off any physical escalation until I've isolated her verbally and in a way where she mostly knows the context is sexual? Because what's mostly been happening on my dates is that we ride in the same car, so she's naturally isolated with me. Then when I escalate, there's always a lot of resistance. Probably because these are girls who would have said "no" had I invited them over or otherwise given them sexual context for isolation.

Whereas, if I only escalate on girls who've already said yes to isolation with perfectly clear knowledge of my intent, they might be far more receptive to sex, thereby decreasing the likelihood and intensity of LMR?

And for those who say no, maybe I should just do the whole date without kissing her and instead hope to move onto a second date?

Hopefully that all makes sense. Its kinda late and I'm not sure if I wrote it in a clear & concise way. haha

 

[Bboy100]

None have rejected a kiss in a long time. Most let me take their top off but don't let me go any further than that. Some only let me kiss/makeout.

 

[ray_zorse]

Mmm hmm well in general if you isolate too early it's not a bad thing b/c it gets them used to being alone with you (ex: she meets you at your appt, you tell her to come up and wait for you to finish getting changed then you go out, or say you gave coffee together then drive her to the park)... but you deginitely can't escalate too early, need to build attraction and connection first. I assume you are taking her between a few places where you're in public so she feels it's a satisfying "date" with a few activities (low-key of course) such as coffee, park or icecream, bar or similar?

So it seems to me the issue might be in the attraction- or conmection-building stage i.e. pre-escalation. It may also be moving too slowly or otherwise putting yourself in the bf-zone, which is certainly plausible (she might be thinking 1st date makeout, 3rd date sex), but in that case I would think you'd get a second date, granted emotions might change but I'd think at least sometimes there'd be a date 2. It does not sound like missed EW if you're proceeding to a makeout?

I'm guessing here, but I'm thinking it also depends how you're setting the scene for the escalation. Being sexy and building attraction with touch, eye contact, sexual and chase framing certainly helps enormously, but I can still see you going in for the kiss and her thinking "huh, what, I thought he was just driving me home", in a sense this is deniability that's TOO plausible which is why I prefer my PD to be pretty weak.

So yes you may be on the money with the idea of inviting her to something to make it more explicit what's going to happen, OTOH this might be handicapping yourself unnecessarily.

What I would suggest is, if escalation is going to take place in your car, you try to set a more sexy tone to it by taking her to, say, a drive-in movie, or a well-known makeout spot, or perhaps a lookout where you can sit in the car and view the city, the sea, the hills or whatever, have this understood as the plan early on, and put some quiet music on and just talk and take it from there, build some anticipation by having her in "chill zone" not "getting from A to B zone". Anyway I'm just kind of brainstorming and thinking how I'd run it with your logistics, hope it helps.

For more specific advice point me to an FR and I'll try to help.

Ray

 

[Lotus]

I'm with Ray 3+ is too long. Set yourself a time limit or a drink limit and just go for the pull.

You mention driving with the girls to the dates. How are your logistics?

Also, where do you typically escalate?

Most let me take their top off but don't let me go any further than that. Some only let me kiss/makeout.

Personally I don't go for the top until after I have gotten my hands down her pants.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

You should always escalate downward. If you take her top off do not go back to kissing. You need to be at her crouch within a minute. Within two minutes you should have her pants and panties off. I prefer to pull both off together. You don't want to act crazed but move smoothly and confidently. Then pull yours down and penetrate her. Now you have become the Alpha male and you can do whatever you want. If she says something like I like to go slow or your moving to fast, take about a 10 second breather and approach from a different angle but to don't move back up. If you want to spend the next two years trying to get into her pants fine but me if she doesn't continue to escalate cut your losses. My experience has always been that with the girls that will have sex with you they are ready to go. I always end up thinking, that was easier than I thought. I have spend to much time in my life trying to conquering the resistive girls never to win. I am sure it was because I had the idea that good girls aren't easy and it should take a while. I have learned that is total BS.

 

[Franco]

BBoy,

I kind of skimmed this one, but another possible issue that I didn't see brought up is how long are you spending on attempting to escalate toward sex? I saw you mentioned you take their shirt off and it doesn't go past that. After she takes her shirt off and resists further attempts, do you just give up there? Do you persist longer?

Sometimes I have a girl in my bed for 3 or 4 hours where she won't let me escalate to sex, but eventually I break through that barrier and she gives in. Having her stay there for a long time and patiently escalating (push/pulling) can be enough to show her that you truly desire her and that you just weren't looking for a quick way to get your rocks off.

Everyone else has done a good job of covering other possible roadblocks that you're hitting, but this is something to consider as well.

- Franco

 

[Bboy100]

I'm guessing I'm not putting myself in the BF zone because I always mention that I'm going back to school in 1.5 months in a city too far away for a relationship. Also, quite a few of these girls were only in town for a week (i.e. visiting Seattle for business or vacation). Keep in mind that I'm talking about literally 5 dates. All the rest of my dates have been elsewhere. On most my other dates, I wouldn't even isolate them because I had bad logistics or it was a while back, in which case I was still very anxious about asking them to come home with me. So I would typically only get as far as kissing/making out with them.
With these five in specific, I managed to set it up so they start out in my car. That way I didn't need to pull them. So I guess one thing to consider is that my sample size might be a little bit small to derive any meaningful conclusions.
Although, what I will say is that I've only had one second date EVER (not including second dates with girls I already laid). Regardless of what I did and what my date logistics were.

I'll go into a little more detail of how these dates go. This should answer all of your guys's clarifying questions:

I pick her up from where she's staying. I take her to a popular tourist location/hang out spot in Seattle. It has a nice view of the oceanfront etc. If we're hungry, we'll grab something to eat cause there are a lot of restaurants in the area. If not, we'll hang out @ a bench overlooking the view. During this time, I typically deep dive her/banter. I'll also do light escalations (i.e. incidental touch and eventually, put my arm around her shoulder and pull her into me). This usually lasts 1.5-2 hours. Depending on whether or not we eat.

After that, I'll suggest that we hang out at UW, which they're usually pretty open to because its a really cool campus. I'll make sure to park in a garage which is pretty isolated. The only issue with it is that its very lit. Anyways, we'll walk up to one of my favorite areas of campus, sit there w/my arm around her and talk some more. I'll eventually kiss her for the first time there. Not too much, just enough so that she wants more. Some of the girls will be very very into it (i.e. they'll straight up attack my mouth), some will only recipricate what I give them. Eventually, we'll walk around part of campus for 20 mins. And we'll stop by @ a small lake on campus. We'll hang out there for a little while longer and we'll makeout. This time, its usually for longer and more intensely. But I still always break it off first. Also, I'll pick her up and have her sit in my lap if she's a small girl. This is also usually 1.5-2 hours.

After that, we'll head back to my car, I'll make sure to keep her physically close to me, i.e. arm around her waist, holding her hand etc. That way when I get to the car, spontanously making out with her will feel more natural. I'll then open the back seat door and lower her into it. Since we've been kissing for a long time at this point, I'll quickly and aggressively start escalating. Yes, I go for the pants first. But so far, she's never allowed me to do that. So I'll slide my hands along her breasts which they're usually ok with. I see this as a signal that taking off her top is ok. I proceed to do so. We'll makeout for a little while I play with or kiss her breasts etc. I'll eventually try to escalate on her pants again. So far, they've moved my hand every time. After making out for a while longer, I'll wait till she starts moaning, then I'll try again. My hand is once again, moved away. Rinse and repeat. Eventually, while there's a pause, she'll usually say "we should go" or something along those lines. Or conversely, she might start to feel uncomfortable after one of my escalation attempts (i.e. when I try to take her top off OR when its already off and I go for the pants) in which case she'll also obviously end it.

I guess one other limiting factor is that like I said before, the garage is very well lit. So even though its usually around midnight at this time, and there's no real danger of getting caught, I could see how some girls might still feel uncomfortable.

I kind of skimmed this one, but another possible issue that I didn't see brought up is how long are you spending on attempting to escalate toward sex?

Usually not very long. But not because I give up. Its because they'll usually give me some sort of cue like what I mentioned "we should go" or "I should get home" etc.
The only exception to this has been a girl who I saw last week. With her, I was attempting to escalate for about an hour. But in the end, I still only got her top off too. But even with her, I didn't give up. She just said it was getting to hot in the car(which is actually true.) and she left.

I'm with Ray 3+ is too long. Set yourself a time limit or a drink limit and just go for the pull.

You mention driving with the girls to the dates. How are your logistics?

Also, where do you typically escalate?

As for pulling them: They usually have bad logistics. And pulling them to my parents house is A. Not terrible but also not the best logistics and B. Too far away. Cause it would take me 20 mins to drive them to mine from UW. Then anywhere between 20-40 mins to drive them home. So asking them to come to mine would not only lack plausible deniability but it would straight up sound illogical.

This is why I instead opt to drive them. And the reason why I take them to UW is because the other place has no isolated parking (i.e. everything we do would be in plain view of everyone if I tried to escalate there). I would take them directly to UW, but it looks kinda sketchy/isolated at night (still very beautiful though), so I feel like I have to build some sort of connection with her before she would be ok with going there.

Setting up the next date in person should help a lot in preventing second date flakes.

This might help. I'll definitely give it a try.

 

[ray_zorse]

I think you are having a transition-point issue, she's ready to go in the college campus, but you can't escalate to sex b/c (yyou feel) it's too public. Getting her hopes all up, then stopping and moving her, gives time for her logical brain to say "I am not having sex with this guy tonight". Also the parking garage does not sound good, girls hate being exposed. As in, even in the privacy of your own room they're still more comfortable under a blanket, it's just an instinctive reputation-preserving thing. And, a sexy atmosphere, such as parking by a beach, etc, is important -- not a concrete cave! Need to tighten up your date plan IMO. The earlier place where you can just sit in the car abd let the world go by... sounds close to what you need. What about getting tinted windows, btw? A very dark shade would be best, obviously. Also, consider non-car escalation, if you're stopping by a beachfront to eat and hangout there MUST be somewhere you can set up a picnic rug etc and have even relative privacy? Or park the car further down the coast? We've touched on this before, so maybe I am really not getting it?
Ray

 

[Bboy100]

if you're stopping by a beachfront to eat and hangout there MUST be somewhere you can set up a picnic rug etc and have even relative privacy? Or park the car further down the coast?

I guess I described it incorrectly. Its more of a view of a waterfront. Like, we're higher up above the city and there's also a highway between the actual water and where we are. There is no private area there. There are always people there and its more or less in the middle of the city. It looks kinda like this (We would be sitting on a bench behind the railing on the left side of the picture):

The earlier place where you can just sit in the car abd let the world go by... sounds close to what you need

Not sure which part you're talking about. There's no place where we stay inside the car. Might be my fault. I mightve written something in an unclear way.

What about getting tinted windows, btw? A very dark shade would be best, obviously.

I've considered this. But I feel like once I'm back in school, my apartment will be 5 mins from anywhere I want to go. So car escalations will no longer be necessary. Still might get some just in case when I get some spare cash.

I think you are having a transition-point issue, she's ready to go in the college campus, but you can't escalate to sex b/c (yyou feel) it's too public.

I feel like the campus itself is waay more public than my car/the garage. Cause there's always drunk kids walking around coming home from parties (even on weekdays @ midnight. lol). And all the buildings are locked. So we can't really go inside a classroom or bathroom or anything like that. But yeah, I could see how the garage is a bad place. Maybe taking girls to UW campus as a whole might be a bad idea? lol

 

[ray_zorse]

Beautiful view, I saw a similar view recently, of the Seto Inland Sea, Japan... the sea between Honshu and Shikoku islands. I was looking from Mt. Yashima "roof mountain" across Takamatsu city. The port looked very similar.

I can see one potential spot, a square carpark at the base of that long jetty, but I suppose it might be a restricted area. Anyway, you said you have to sit on a bench and look out across a railing. And that there are always lots of people around. But c'mon, surely that's not the only place that view can be seen from? Seattle is a big place... why not just go for a drive to find potential escalation spots, places you can park the car, look out over the city and chill... but if not then I am sure you can figure out a solution, you're a high value man At any rate I think we agree on the need to change it up.

Ray

 

[Bboy100]

Thanks for the advice guys!

I'll definitely look into that parking lot. See what it is.
Also, I did a google search and apparently there's a whole yelp page dedicated to parks good for public sex. LOL. So I'll at least take a look at them to see if I can find anything.