Flame-War - citation and references

[James Cruse]

Admin Note: Moved from T/T boards as a flamewar seemed unecessary in a great thread that happened to be stickied. Discussion can resume here at the discretion of the moderators.

The best why I have found to use sexual frames is to use something I call “Behavior Shaping.”

Basically, this is making a mini cold read about her. If she has any interest in you at all, even just a little bit, she will want to live up to the cold read so not to disappoint you.

An example:

“I can tell that your a woman who knows how to have fun and goes after what she wants.”

“I can already tell that your a fun chick whos open to new experiences and wild adventures.”

“You seem pretty sexually aggressive which is cool because I respect women who goes after what they want.”

The effect of these is pretty obvious. It frames the whole interaction so that its normal and appropriate for her to be sexual and to be open to you about sexual stuff.

What you call ‘Behaviour Shaping’ is exactly what Vin DiCarlo called it in ‘The Attraction Code’, just as it’s written here. You didn’t name that.

DiCarlo had several other ‘Behaviour Shaping’ examples listed in that product and his other material before that.

Is this you poorly plagiarising other people’s seduction ideas AGAIN?

 

[Warped Mindless]

What you call ‘Behaviour Shaping’ is exactly what Vin DiCarlo called it in ‘The Attraction Code’, just as it’s written here. You didn’t name that.

DiCarlo had several other ‘Behaviour Shaping’ examples listed in that product and his other material before that.

Is this you poorly plagiarising other people’s seduction ideas AGAIN?

Good for Vin? Maybe go read his book so you can learn to stop being a low value faggot. This is what, the third website you have followed me around to so you can leave some low value verbal diarrhea comment? Kinda creepy.

And “behavior shaping” as both a term and a technique has been around psychology circles for longer than Vin has been a PUA. You seem obsessed with the idea that anyone who has every learned anything has to remember every person they ever learned anything from and to make sure they credit every person with every idea they possibly sparked. The PUA community is one big “brain trust” where everyone has learned from everyone else. Chase learned a ton of his stuff from Sebastian Drake and Vin yet I don’t see anyone giving him shit for not crediting them on every blog post (nor should he have to).

Get a life creeper.

 

[James Cruse]

And “behavior shaping” as both a term and a technique has been around psychology circles for longer than Vin has been a PUA.

Yes it has, but the way you describe it here is a direct rip-off from Vin DiCarlo.

haha follow you? I’ve been a member here for awhile.

Surprise, most of the things you mention as your own are plagiarised, just like you plagiarised 60 Years of Challenge as your own.

Mate, get your own original material and stop ripping off other people.

 

[Chase]

I'm weighing in late here but:

What you call ‘Behaviour Shaping’ is exactly what Vin DiCarlo called it in ‘The Attraction Code’, just as it’s written here. You didn’t name that.

The concept and name comes from B.F. Skinner:

Shaping was Skinner's term for the gradual modification of behavior by the reinforcement of desired variations.

It's been discussed in the seduction community -- along with a huge variety of other concepts from the annals of psychology -- since the very early days of mASF.

The PUA community is one big “brain trust” where everyone has learned from everyone else.

Exactly right.

Chase learned a ton of his stuff from Sebastian Drake and Vin yet I don’t see anyone giving him shit for not crediting them on every blog post (nor should he have to).

Both men don't wish to be associated with PUA anymore and have asked not to be referenced.

(actually, they've even asked me if I could remove past references to them on GC / on the forum. I've taken down some but not all... honestly feels sad to me to do that. Both were brilliant guys in this space)

Chase

 

[James Cruse]

It's been discussed in the seduction community -- along with a huge variety of other concepts from the annals of psychology -- since the very early days of mASF.

I’ve NEVER heard ANYONE else EVER in the seduction community call those exact concepts and that EXACT application ‘Behaviour Shaping’ and I’ve been around and read alot (if not most) seduction material since 2007.

Is there ANYONE else that calls those techniques ‘Behaviour Shaping’ other than Vin DiCarlo? Please cite here the product/material & reference, if so.

Sure, none of his ideas are original and Warped Mindless has been caught DIRECTLY plagiarising other seduction material and admitting to it, so this isn’t Warped’s first ‘Plagarism Rodeo’, so to speak.

I’m happy to show the evidence if you’d like to contact me directly.

I don’t believe dismissing people stealing other people’s ideas from the seduction community is helpful to anyone - the people who come up with those original ideas are then disincentivised to come up with more original ideas, which no-one wants.

Additionally, the person plagiarising that idea or method usually does so poorly and with less background and experience with the technique itself.

 

[Warped Mindless]

I’ve NEVER heard ANYONE else EVER in the seduction community call those exact concepts and that EXACT application ‘Behaviour Shaping’ and I’ve been around and read alot (if not most) seduction material since 2007.

Is there ANYONE else that calls those techniques ‘Behaviour Shaping’ other than Vin DiCarlo? Please cite here the product/material & reference, if so.

Sure, none of his ideas are original and Warped Mindless has been caught DIRECTLY plagiarising other seduction material and admitting to it, so this isn’t Warped’s first ‘Plagarism Rodeo’, so to speak.

I’m happy to show the evidence if you’d like to contact me directly.

I don’t believe dismissing people stealing other people’s ideas from the seduction community is helpful to anyone - the people who come up with those original ideas are then disincentivised to come up with more original ideas, which no-one wants.

Additionally, the person plagiarising that idea or method usually does so poorly and with less background and experience with the technique itself.

I see you are still mad about getting banned from the other forum. Funny thing is, I wasn’t the one who banned you.

But hey, feel free to keep following me all around Reddit and complaining about me to anyone who will listen.

 

[Teevster]

What you call ‘Behaviour Shaping’ is exactly what Vin DiCarlo called it in ‘The Attraction Code’, just as it’s written here. You didn’t name that.

DiCarlo had several other ‘Behaviour Shaping’ examples listed in that product and his other material before that.

Is this you poorly plagiarising other people’s seduction ideas AGAIN?

As much as I like Vin, do you really believe Vin was the first one to mention this?

The example are also commonly used/known.

I am all for giving references and not plagiarizing, but when something is seen as common knowledge in the field, and where the true original source is somewhat unknown, there are no requirements to cite sources.

Take an example from ethics:

"similar situations should be treated similarly"

Is the statement above avant-garde to you, or common-sense? Likely the second.

But Aristotle wrote about it 2000 years ago. Cite it if you like, but most won't and that's ok.

@Chase, unless I am mistaken, MrSex4uNYC was the first one to discuss this behaviour shaping thing. If so, then according to @James Cruse logic, 1. Vin should have cited MrSex4uNYC, and 2. so should @Warped Mindless ...

But then... did MrSex4NYC cite Skinner? Not to my knowledge.

So when should we set the threshold without reaching some form of a reducio ad absurdum/infinitum

And to @James Cruse - should the community have stricter requirement than academia?

I leave it to you guys to debate.

I turn to a more simple explanation, that @James Cruse is just trolling and has some beef with @Warped Mindless for whatever reason.

Cya
-Teevster

 

[Chase]

@Teevster,

I haven't read all of MrSex4uNYC's archive... his archive is huge (I think like 4K posts?). He is where the idea of eliciting values comes from though. Considering his psychology focus I wouldn't be surprised if he was the first or one of the first in PUA to talk about shaping behavior through Skinnerian conditioning, but I don't know for sure.


@James Cruse,

In my experience @Warped Mindless has always been pretty generous in paying credit where credit is due. I don't know what your prior history is with him here, but all I see is you getting a bee in your bonnet about about him "YET AGAIN" not citing someone. Maybe we're all coming in in medias res here but it looks like you popping your top at a guy who's normally very chill and value-giving.

I don't know if he learned the concept and name of behavior shaping from Vin... maybe he heard it from him and didn't remember hearing it there. Vin & Seb were virtually my introduction to PUA, and both were very big on rewarding and punishing. I do not recall ever hearing the terms 'behavior shaping' or 'operant conditioning' used by either of them when I attended trainings with them, was on forums with them, or hung out with them. Maybe Vin used that term earlier and I don't remember it, or maybe he used it in some later products (the only one of his post-Approach products I've gotten the chance to go through was Pandora's Box... but he's not even in that one sadly, save for the intro).

Anyway, I'm not sure if you think you're defending Vin, or if you think you're calling attention to some guy who is stealing other guys' materials... if it is the former, Vin does NOT want to be talked about online in association with pickup AT ALL anymore, so you are doing the opposite from defending him or helping him out.

If it's the latter, the case isn't being helped by angry accusations here.

If you think it is actually the case that Warped Mindless is stealing guys' stuff to present as his own (which just doesn't add up with anything I know or have seen about the guy at all), I suggest you let the mods know what instances of this you think you've seen and why you think it's stealing, rather than make it some public flame war. If you're going to war publicly, you had better be 1.) very clear, 2.) very convincing, and 3.) coolly correct.

Also, keep in mind it is very common to learn stuff from people and not remember you learned it... when I used to make music sometimes I'd create a really awesome new beat, only to realize months later it was the same beat in some song I'd heard before. Same thing with seduction: sometimes something I thought was a new innovation ("Wow, this is a great breakthrough I've had! This seems like something totally new!"), months later I'd read some old forum post I'd read in the past and see that same thing there, and realize I must've gotten the idea there and not even remembered it. When you're dealing with large volumes of information, even if your memory is encyclopedic, you are not going to remember 100% of where it comes from.

(by the same coin, I have seen guys all the time doing it with me... I don't want to name names but we used to have forum members who would post long things people would say were very insightful and original but were almost entirely stuff that came from long PM conversations between them and me, where they were asking me questions and I was giving them tips... we even had a writer whose articles largely came from private conversations between himself and me or himself and other senior members. In one case articles of his that hit the site were from private techniques I discussed with him that I specifically told him were not to be discussed publicly due to risks of misuse; I didn't read the articles until much later after they were posted due them being posted by our editing team, not me. I doubt these guys were intentionally lifting things... it is just very hard to keep the genesis of ideas totally straight when you are talking about this stuff all the time with different people / consuming stuff / etc.)

Also:

I see you are still mad about getting banned from the other forum. Funny thing is, I wasn’t the one who banned you.

But hey, feel free to keep following me all around Reddit and complaining about me to anyone who will listen.

What's Warped referring to here?

Sounds like there is some history here...

Chase

 

[Michael Chief]

Behavioral Shaping: Get Your Girl to Show You Only Her Best Side

Wouldn’t it be great if your partner behaved more to your liking? The Pygmalion Effect shows us how to shape the behavior of others in a subtle-yet-profound way. This week, I’m taking a break from writing about polyamory. Reading my other articles is not a prerequisite to understanding anything...

www.girlschase.com

lol

 

[Teevster]

Behavioral Shaping: Get Your Girl to Show You Only Her Best Side

Wouldn’t it be great if your partner behaved more to your liking? The Pygmalion Effect shows us how to shape the behavior of others in a subtle-yet-profound way. This week, I’m taking a break from writing about polyamory. Reading my other articles is not a prerequisite to understanding anything...

www.girlschase.com

lol

Shame on you.

-Teevster

 

[James Cruse]

I see you are still mad about getting banned from the other forum. Funny thing is, I wasn’t the one who banned you.

But hey, feel free to keep following me all around Reddit and complaining about me to anyone who will listen.

What forum did I get banned from brother?

I haven’t been banned anywhere mate - it’s not really clever to just keep repeating this nonsense about being banned as a distraction.

Which forum was I banned from and can you show proof?

 

[James Cruse]

If you think it is actually the case that Warped Mindless is stealing guys' stuff to present as his own (which just doesn't add up with anything I know or have seen about the guy at all), I suggest you let the mods know what instances of this you think you've seen and why you think it's stealing, rather than make it some public flame war. If you're going to war publicly, you had better be 1.) very clear, 2.) very convincing, and 3.) coolly correct.

Reddit Plagiarised 60yoc on TheRedPill

Here is Warped Mindless directly plagiarising 60 Years of Challenge - Game Revision System on reddit to several different forums and dumbing down to the point of simplistic idiocy.

Then him denying it in the comments saying that he “could have come up with it at the same time” LOL. Then other people adding they’ve seen it before from 60yoc.

Other people adding his advice is simplistic, unoriginal and plagiarised.

 

[James Cruse]

I don't know if he learned the concept and name of behavior shaping from Vin... maybe he heard it from him and didn't remember hearing it there. Vin & Seb were virtually my introduction to PUA, and both were very big on rewarding and punishing. I do not recall ever hearing the terms 'behavior shaping' or 'operant conditioning' used by either of them when I attended trainings with them, was on forums with them, or hung out with them. Maybe Vin used that term earlier and I don't remember it, or maybe he used it in some later products (the only one of his post-Approach products I've gotten the chance to go through was Pandora's Box... but he's not even in that one sadly, save for the intro).

Vin DiCarlo’s ‘Dominant Sexual Program’ - Core Tenet ‘Behaviour Shaping’ released 2014

Shame on you.

-Teevster

Wow, you guys all got this from Vin.

‘Behaviour Shaping’ is also mentioned by Vin earlier than this in ‘The Attraction Code’ by Vin DiCarlo (as mentioned earlier) in Chapter 4, Pg. 203-216 (published 2008).

It’s mentioned specifically in another product of his between those two products, but I think that’s enough dunking on Warped for today.

I’m not trying to defend Vin, I just don’t like it when people plagiarise others without credit, then to add insult to the people they plagiarised it from: they copy it poorly and simplistically, seemingly without even having tried the techniques in real life.

So when anyone asks questions or for help, lo and behold, the basic plagiariser certainly can’t help, he just copied that tech from someone else so has never used it.

I can’t see a single original idea or technique anywhere from Warped Mindless.

 

[Michael Chief]

Who was the first PUA to think of applying preselection to seduction? Do we have to name whoever that dude is every time it comes up, too? Does every guy who talks about sexual state have to bring up Gunwitch?

Vin DiCarlo was a pioneer who gave us a lot of great stuff and I loved his content, but saying that we need to cite the first ever PUA who applied every single application of common, well-known psychological concepts is ridiculous. Behavioral shaping is ubiquitously used enough to be "public domain" for us at this point.

Something like the DiCarlo escalation ladder is specific enough to use his name every time. Alternating between incidental and overt kino isn't something other people can easily put into words. On the other hand, every high school kid who took an AP Psychology class knows what conditioning and behavioral shaping is.

 

[Teevster]

Vin DiCarlo’s ‘Dominant Sexual Program’ - Core Tenet ‘Behaviour Shaping’ released 2014




Wow, you guys all got this from Vin.

‘Behaviour Shaping’ is also mentioned by Vin earlier than this in ‘The Attraction Code’ by Vin DiCarlo (as mentioned earlier) in Chapter 4, Pg. 203-216 (published 2008).

It’s mentioned specifically in another product of his between those two products, but I think that’s enough dunking on Warped for today.

I’m not trying to defend Vin, I just don’t like it when people plagiarise others without credit, then to add insult to the people they plagiarised it from: they copy it poorly and simplistically, seemingly without even having tried the techniques in real life.

So when anyone asks questions or for help, lo and behold, the basic plagiariser certainly can’t help, he just copied that tech from someone else so has never used it.

I can’t see a single original idea or technique anywhere from Warped Mindless.

You clearly ignored all of my points. Clearly, you are up to no good.

I will refer back to my initial post.

MrSex4NYC (one of THE GURUS back in the days - every super old school guy knows who he is) talked about this before Vin. Did Vin cite him though?

I live it at this.

-Teevster

 

[Teevster]

Who was the first PUA to think of applying preselection to seduction?

We know PUAs got it from social psychology, Cialdini in particular.

Beware the plagiarism.


-Teevster

 

[Teevster]

I can’t see a single original idea or technique anywhere from Warped Mindless

Even if that was true, original doesn't always equal good.

One can be a good chef, and a good cooking instructor without having invented some quirky dish.

Innovating for the sake of innovating, is nothing more than an ego-trip.

Just saying.

-Teevster

 

[POB]

Time to lock this thread so the fire won't spread anymore.

@James Cruse and @Warped Mindless I think you guys can resolve this in private via PMs.
No need to clutter the forum with insults and personal beefs.