Date Plans Girl goes MIA making plans?

[Fluxcapacitor]

Dudes! this has happened to me a couple of times lately where in the middle of making plans a girl goes Missing In Action (texting/messaging). I have always opted to leave it to not appear needy/desperate, I have messaged her, she hasn't responded and therefore she isn't interested. Whether this be the first or second date or whatever, I take it as a soft rejection but it confuses me why they would give you there ability and other details to not actually finish making plans. (This is where girls would usually reply within 10 minutes and then 3 - 4 days pass, you know she isn't replying).

I was watching a video on youtube by AskToddV which I currently can't find but he discusses girls going MIA while date planning and he says to "just message her again, its like what the fuck? very rude, just ping them" I don't like the idea of messaging them again because it looks more important to you than to them (chasing) and there's a reason she's ignored your question.

Its even more confusing when the girl asks you out (if a girl who has went MIA engages me weeks later I will make her work for it by qualifying herself or by asking me out herself - ball in her court) and then goes MIA.

Current example - (Monday night) radio silence for 3 weeks, came back, bit of small talk up until:

Her: You need to stop being so busy so that we can go out! xxx
Me: No rest for the wicked! Yeah we'll have to make plans xxx
Her: Okay! When are you free? xxx
Me: I'm free Thursday night xxx
(its now Saturday morning...)

Any ideas dudes?

 

[JacobPalmer]

One thing here to be careful of, is that you boxed yourself in to one day. Always get her schedule, or offer a few days you could be free. Also notice that she's leading the interaction, not the other way around. Girls aren't leaders, don't expect them to make plans (although it's fun when they do).

Her: Okay! When are you free? xxx
You: I can't do Tuesday, but Wednesday or Thursday work for you?

or

You: I'm a bit busy the next little while, but shoot me a few days you're free and I can see if I can make something work.

or after you said you're free thursday

You: What days are you free?

See the difference? You're minimizing potential problems or her not responding.

About double texting: As long as it's not coming from a needy place, you can double text. In your case, if it has to do with making plans, just double text, it's not a big deal. It's more of a problem when you're just making small talk and you double text.

Here's a few texts you can send that can work depending on context if she drops off while making plans.

"If you're nervous, I'd understand"
"..?"
"You seem hesitant, what's up? "

As for your current situation, I'd go with something low effort, either:
"Shit, sorry I was in the shower"
"Hey you!"

And go from there.

 

[naturalmikey]

meet more girls. girls are terribly unreliable unless you’ve hit it once, maybe twice even.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@JacobPalmer dude! thanks for the reply and a like some of your text examples will definitely be using them!

I boxed myself in, but genuinely that is the only day that I had free this week so very limited availability around my schedule. A also had her "lead" the interaction on purpose, I usually take the hint of we need to go out soon to lead and make the plans but purposely set it up for her to do that. I baited her by saying "we will have to make plans" it was also open ended that I could come back and set it up if she didn't take initiative.

This possibly sounds fucked up because we know we need to lead. As a mentioned in the OP I will make a girl qualify herself or ask me if she's been overly flakey in the past. We went out previously and when I done the anti flake text she then let me know we were restricted on time, it was about half an hour before meeting so rather than cancelling I decided to go out but not escalate. She messaged me immediately after the date and after a couple messages said we needed to go out again soon. I asked when she was free and she flat out ignored me. She came back after a few weeks with a low effort ping just saying she's bad at replying. I ignored the message because it was shit.

She then messaged again a week or so later saying hi. I messaged back this time but she had to qualify herself of ask me out because she's already had a chance and she dropped the ball. This is when we had a bit of small talk and I baited her into setting up the date herself, which is the text example in my OP. For me she needs to put the work in because that was the second time I asked her out that she's flat ignored. Thats a rejection in my book....

@naturalmikey totally agree that they can be unreliable and always working on meeting more girls!

a previous post of yours comes to mind with this girl, if they're difficult at the start they always will be...

Thanks dudes!

 

[JacobPalmer]

@JacobPalmer dude! thanks for the reply and a like some of your text examples will definitely be using them!

I boxed myself in, but genuinely that is the only day that I had free this week so very limited availability around my schedule. A also had her "lead" the interaction on purpose, I usually take the hint of we need to go out soon to lead and make the plans but purposely set it up for her to do that. I baited her by saying "we will have to make plans" it was also open ended that I could come back and set it up if she didn't take initiative.

This possibly sounds fucked up because we know we need to lead. As a mentioned in the OP I will make a girl qualify herself or ask me if she's been overly flakey in the past. We went out previously and when I done the anti flake text she then let me know we were restricted on time, it was about half an hour before meeting so rather than cancelling I decided to go out but not escalate. She messaged me immediately after the date and after a couple messages said we needed to go out again soon. I asked when she was free and she flat out ignored me. She came back after a few weeks with a low effort ping just saying she's bad at replying. I ignored the message because it was shit.

She then messaged again a week or so later saying hi. I messaged back this time but she had to qualify herself of ask me out because she's already had a chance and she dropped the ball. This is when we had a bit of small talk and I baited her into setting up the date herself, which is the text example in my OP. For me she needs to put the work in because that was the second time I asked her out that she's flat ignored. Thats a rejection in my book....

@naturalmikey totally agree that they can be unreliable and always working on meeting more girls!

a previous post of yours comes to mind with this girl, if they're difficult at the start they always will be...

Thanks dudes!

Ahh ok, then in this case you also have the option of using a bit more of a takeaway, but i'd also make it a bit nice as she's almost there, just needs that push. But this is an all-or-nothing text, just keep that in mind. I'd text her something like this:

"Hey XXX. I had a great time when we first went out, and I can definitely feel some chemistry there. But if you're not interested in hanging out again I can stop trying.

100% she will respond is my guess. But if she does, then make hard plans with her. Don't let her lead the interaction/planning the date.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@JacobPalmer dude! Thanks for the example message I like it. I recall reading something similar on a thread or an article here but totally forgot about it to consider using it here. She ended up getting back in touch without me having to send that message with:

"Sorry for the week late reply :') I have been working nights xxx"

I don't really know how a feel about this message. She doesn't acknowledge when she's free, she doesn't check my availability and it seems like a ping/bait. It does let me take initiative to lead, but its also a shit message. I've just left it for now, she can wait a day or two as far as am concerned. I know this doesn't encourage her to reply and 'slows' down the interaction but I also don't see why I should encourage that and message back fast for something that doesn't make progress.
Besides has she been working nights or seeing other guys? I bet she hasn't ignored her phone all week, she could have messaged at any time. I know that sounds bitter but if she's being difficult I don't feel like seeming overly invested. Thoughts?

 

[JacobPalmer]

@JacobPalmer dude! Thanks for the example message I like it. I recall reading something similar on a thread or an article here but totally forgot about it to consider using it here. She ended up getting back in touch without me having to send that message with:

"Sorry for the week late reply :') I have been working nights xxx"

I don't really know how a feel about this message. She doesn't acknowledge when she's free, she doesn't check my availability and it seems like a ping/bait. It does let me take initiative to lead, but its also a shit message. I've just left it for now, she can wait a day or two as far as am concerned. I know this doesn't encourage her to reply and 'slows' down the interaction but I also don't see why I should encourage that and message back fast for something that doesn't make progress.
Besides has she been working nights or seeing other guys? I bet she hasn't ignored her phone all week, she could have messaged at any time. I know that sounds bitter but if she's being difficult I don't feel like seeming overly invested. Thoughts?

Yeah I hate this message from her too. I wouldn't ignore her, but you also can't let this shit slide. Get her while she's on the phone. So I'd probably go with something like this:

"Haha all good, I ended up doing something else anyway. I think I'm going to focus on a few other things at this point though, so all the best. "

My guess is she will say something like, "Sorry sorry! I'm just super busy right now blah blah blah." And then, you can ignore and wait for her to text you again. Or be honest and say, "Too busy to hang out is one thing, but too busy to text back....I'm just not into that. But if you want to make plans to actually meet up with your future husband sometime, give me a shout with some details and I'm there. "

 

[Watts]

How did you meet her? What are the details of your hook?

My personal feeling on numbers, actually as I reflected and came back to the forums, is unless I've already fucked them, fuck'em (the numbers!).

Basically I have zero expectation on any number from any girl I didn't have sex with the first night I met them (I nightgame).

So I text for

fun
practice
momentum
frame control
to have a warm lead if I run into her

I'll also still try to find a way to a date, but that's also me practicing my charisma and finding connections to what I want in a conversation.

Further, to your point, when she cancels or shows flakiness, meaning she gives less fucks, I show I give even less fucks. I'd also pre-emptively flake (like you could have texted her Wednesday/Thursday morning, that Thursday no longer worked, you're sorry, and you hope she has a good week!, or something to that nature).

I did this with the girl from my recent FR, I just pinged and kept it light with some banter during the week. If she didn't respond I'd give it a day, then reopen with something new.

We talked about meeting up on Sunday (her suggestion, from her schedule), but I strongly believe she got too drunk at a bar crawl on Saturday.

She texts me "I am not okay today haha" the day of.

My response "Haha. I was just about to text the same thing" "Still in bed" (double text, one after another).

Side note: It's not that double texting is bad, it's the energy and belief behind it. Text to get your point across, but if she doesn't respond to one just let it lie for some period (experiment, a day, two days, or if she doesn't respond at night, try the morning etc.). I also double text to clarify something in quick succession (within 5-10 mins perhaps), or even if I'm riffing and telling a story or making a joke, but not say one at 12PM and then another at 4PM if she hasn't responding, I think that's a bad double text. But if I texted her at 12PM one day and she doesn't respond, I might text her at 5PM the next or at 5PM in two days.

Her "what did you do last night?"

And my response was (paraphrased): I can get up now, and come eat, or I can go back to bed. which is it?

Her (long explanation about her day, sounds like she has work conflicts that will interfere)

Me (Sounds like you're busy. I'm going back to bed. Text me later if you want to eat after) - She did not. This isn't too inviting either, but it's not really meant to be, I would possibly have canceled on her if she did try later, or really made her earn it

What I'm going to do is text her on Wednesday, ping, see how it goes. But again, zero expectations. I may let her know I'm out, in the area where I met her, if there isn't anything promising past a certain point (not late enough for fuckboy range, but maybe 1.5 hours before closing). See what I mean?

At least for me, I find when I treat my nightgame non-lay numbers as a priority, I wind up screwing up my focus and results, as opposed to just focusing on getting out more nights, earlier, and with better energy, and getting potential SNL's with new girls.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@JacobPalmer dude! Really like the suggestions dude, I ignored her the last time she done a ping/bait an she came back within a week. It makes no sense to me. I think I will go with the honest option (tomorrow - she can wait) but leave out the "and I'm there" because I can't guarantee that :') very busy schedule at the moment I get one free night in a week around my schedule for the next 4 weeks.

The only thing I could think of was: "and you say I'm always busy!" very low effort, it acknowledges her but it doesn't let her of the hook or move anything forward. (This is the behaviour I get from her which is why I made her set up the date the last time! :') )

I have just posted a new thread about her actually, since I first met her my SMV has gone up yet she's being more difficult and challenging with me now than back then. (and her SMV has gone down!) I meet 18 - 22yo girls that are much better looking with a lot less hassle than this haha.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@Watts dude! Its a long story. I met her on a night out 6 years ago, turned out she was a friend of a friend. We went out a few times, I got LMR a couple of times and was never able to sleep with her. We run into each other earlier this year and we still had a lot of sexual tension between us, I tried to escalate and couldn't finish it. I left it at this but she messaged me to arrange to go out. We have since been on 3 dates, every time she has ejected at the end (to much sexual tension the first two times, I time limited the third because I had to get to my fight) I'm really only going for this one for practice and it would be great to finish what I started but she's being extremely difficult.

Like you I night game, text for practice, frame control and occasionally date for practice and to look to finish warm leads.

I have been routinely giving her less fucks, she has asked me out 3 times, I routinely take hours to reply while I'm at work/the gym and she responds within 5 minutes. Unless I try to schedule a second date and then she goes ghost/ignores me. She will come back with a bait, which I'll ignore, then she'll hint which I'll ignore and then she asks me out again. That's when I decide buying temperature is right and I'll reward her effort.

I have zero expectations with this girl, but while my ex is stalking me and derailing every seduction she can I'm not on full momentum and a lead is a lead. I'm just sick of this shit behaviour haha

 

[Watts]

dude! Its a long story. I met her on a night out 6 years ago, turned out she was a friend of a friend. We went out a few times, I got LMR a couple of times and was never able to sleep with her. We run into each other earlier this year and we still had a lot of sexual tension between us, I tried to escalate and couldn't finish it. I left it at this but she messaged me to arrange to go out. We have since been on 3 dates, every time she has ejected at the end (to much sexual tension the first two times, I time limited the third because I had to get to my fight) I'm really only going for this one for practice and it would be great to finish what I started but she's being extremely difficult.

It sounds like your problem is your dates, and not texting. Shouldn't you be more focused on that?

I'm liking setting sexual frames, check out what Teevster and I have been talking about, his purity gambit, and some recent stuff by Bacchus. That could help.

Also you mentioned SMV and yours rising while hers is falling. Don't assume she agrees with this sentiment, will make a rational choice about it, or that her best options are your best options.

I'm guessing it means she's late 20's / early 30's, and you are similar.

What it seems like to me is that she may be trying to grab onto some guy to lock him down as a boyfriend and later husband to "hop off the carousel" (I can tell you know redpill), so she may in fact be making it harder for you than a younger girl who feels like she has more time to play around. And of course the irony from your perspective is that she is less hot and has more emotional baggage (although for her to cash out with you is in a sense a rational choice for her).

So focus on getting your dates better, this should serve as a signal to you that you're missing something there.

But, to be clear, I never said I'd keep texting with a girl who I went through meeting three times (in addition to the first round six years ago), without sex. Now you're just wasting your time, which is NOT what I advise at all!

Keep texting then, as you are, for practice and whatever. And then on the date run those routines all the way to burning the set to the ground if needed (I'm talking about extreme polarizing if need be i.e. "I like girls who like anal, what you don't do it, sorry, this isn't going to work. Have you tried it? How do you know you don't like it if you haven't tried it?". The point is to end the date with either a "yes" or a permanent "no").

The point being, she's wasting your time and milking you for validation, while steadily increasing your investment and trying to get you to irrationally value her higher than she is. She's winning. So either lay her the next time you see her, or cut your losses.

A lead is not a lead. Some things just drain you energy and time. Sometimes the only way to win is to not play.

Good luck!

...and find a way to go out at least once a weekend or every other weekend. Are you really that booked?

 

[Watts]

I have been routinely giving her less fucks, she has asked me out 3 times, I routinely take hours to reply while I'm at work/the gym and she responds within 5 minutes. Unless I try to schedule a second date and then she goes ghost/ignores me. She will come back with a bait, which I'll ignore, then she'll hint which I'll ignore and then she asks me out again. That's when I decide buying temperature is right and I'll reward her effort.

Also it wasn't clear to me if you're doing this. And if you are, that's just for you to consider.

But, if you're purposely waiting for 3 hours to reply, in some sort of attempt to appear less invested, you're actually in fact more invested, because you have something to remember to do i.e. you're thinking about her more.

The point is to not think about her more than needed to get the fun/practice whatever you want.

I understand there is the thought that it "appears" less invested or interested or higher value etc. but I believe that's really just low value nerds hypothesizing what "high value alpha Chads" would do, and isn't grounded in reality.

If you see the text and feel like responding right then, do it (like if you have something funny to say). If you're reading, working out, doing something else, ignore it till you finish what you do. It's not that important. But don't see the text and say "I need to wait three hours to respond to this".

Again, I can't tell you if you're doing this. Just think about whether or not you are adopting this mindset.

Paradoxically if you are, you are in fact "playing her game" because she's trying to show you how high value she is (delays, not fucking), and you're trying to show her how high value you are (qualifying to her), instead of you just treating her like an insignificant person whose opinion you value at next to nothing, until she proves you should feel otherwise, by taking care of your needs a.k.a. giving you pussy.

...and to reiterate, she had three chances already to show you that.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@Watts dude! thanks for your thoughts and advice on this. I try to improve on everything from approach/pre approach, texting, dating. My dates have never been as ‘bad’ as they have with her but I find we’re on track and then she changes instantly and closes up. I step back and we get back on track. I can’t pinpoint what happened but she’ll go from being receptive to touch to complaining about it. She’ll comply and let me lead her and then resist a simple request usually one that’s less than what I’ve asked previously. She’s the only person I have encountered this behaviour with and I don’t understand it. (She done the same thing 6 years ago when she was more or less begging me to date her, I put it down to her being young and nervous/awkward. I didn’t know what I was doing back then and have only discovered this community in the last year)

I have been reading your thread with Teevster and read the purity gambit. It’s a really interesting thread that’s got a lot of good information in and the purity gambit is something I have started to try out. I have read the recent stuff by Bacchus and have found it has helped a lot with my other interactions but this one still seems to be elusive. The best response I got was the first night we bumped into each other with the failed escalation, she was very accepting to the sexual frames and I was very aggressive/dominant which she responded really well to.

You’re right that I shouldn’t assume that she agrees with the SMV sentiment, or that her best options are mine. This was giving me a narrow view. She’s mid 20’s and I’m late 20’s. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head of looking for a guy to lock down. She told me how her friend she was out with when I first met her is married now and wondered what we would have been like if we didn’t split up. That was an alarm that was set of in my head!

I will try to focus on getting my dates better, but I’m at a loss as to how I can do this with her. I keep them simple, deep dive and build connection, lead, get investment and compliance and use touch unless I’m aiming for a no touch pick up. I tried this with her the first time and built to much tension, I touched her the second time to build more comfort but neither were ‘successful’. I wouldn’t advise this either, but while I’m busy and she’s hitting me up I see it as practice. If I go out with her again I will burn it to the ground if needed. I definitely like this approach to it.

Unfortunately I am that booked at the moment, I still try to get out once a week at the weekend and manage it most the time.

I’d like to clarify I’m not purposely waiting hours to reply, I reply when I can. I’ll drop girls messages during work breaks (if I get them), when I finish work, before I start training and then message them back after I’ve finished, sometimes straight away sometimes after a while if I’ve got other things I need to do. There’s no particular order or set times, I’ve just got a ridiculous schedule at the moment. They may get a really quick reply if I’m on my phone and get chance to reply. Although I have purposely ignored her last message for a day now, but that’s because I didn’t particularly like it. From experience she will follow it up.

 

[Grand Pooba]

Dudes! this has happened to me a couple of times lately where in the middle of making plans a girl goes Missing In Action (texting/messaging). I have always opted to leave it to not appear needy/desperate, I have messaged her, she hasn't responded and therefore she isn't interested. Whether this be the first or second date or whatever, I take it as a soft rejection but it confuses me why they would give you there ability and other details to not actually finish making plans. (This is where girls would usually reply within 10 minutes and then 3 - 4 days pass, you know she isn't replying).

I was watching a video on youtube by AskToddV which I currently can't find but he discusses girls going MIA while date planning and he says to "just message her again, its like what the fuck? very rude, just ping them" I don't like the idea of messaging them again because it looks more important to you than to them (chasing) and there's a reason she's ignored your question.

Its even more confusing when the girl asks you out (if a girl who has went MIA engages me weeks later I will make her work for it by qualifying herself or by asking me out herself - ball in her court) and then goes MIA.

Current example - (Monday night) radio silence for 3 weeks, came back, bit of small talk up until:

Her: You need to stop being so busy so that we can go out! xxx
Me: No rest for the wicked! Yeah we'll have to make plans xxx
Her: Okay! When are you free? xxx
Me: I'm free Thursday night xxx
(its now Saturday morning...)

Any ideas dudes?

The main issue that I see is that you're not leading in your texts. That's the problem.... girls are not going to lead for you. You're not giving texts that lead well.

In fact, in the example above she's kind of halfheartedly leading, but at the critical moment when YOU are supposed to lead, which is to set up a date and what she's hinting at, you're not.

When she's hinting at setting up a date (which she was), YOU need to set up the date. She's not going to do it for you!

Here's how my texting would have gone:

Her: You need to stop being so busy so that we can go out! xxx
Me: No rest for the wicked! Yeah we'll have to make plans How do drinks sound to you? xxx
Her: Okay! When are you free? xxx
Me: Currently I'm free Thursday and Saturday night, how about you? <always good to give at least two options for days>
HER: Thursday night works for me!
ME: Cool - let's say 7pm at XYZ Lounge? How does that sound?
HER: Okay!
ME: I'll see you then

So you always want to get a girl's feedback, and you always want to move the conversation along into logistics and actually setting up a meet. Remember that she's not texting you to text you - she actually wants to meet you, you're just not leading her to it.

Anyway, the good thing here is that it's an easy fix.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@Grand Pooba dude! thanks for the reply. You're right, my texting usually is more or less like your corrections/suggestions and I know we're meant to lead. I didn't explain the situation very well in my OP but I basically done this by design. I explained the situation to jacobpalmer when he pointed out I wasn't leading:

"I had her "lead" the interaction on purpose, I usually take the hint of we need to go out soon to lead and make the plans but purposely set it up for her to do that. I baited her by saying "we will have to make plans" it was also open ended that I could come back and set it up if she didn't take initiative.

This possibly sounds fucked up because we know we need to lead. As a mentioned in the OP I will make a girl qualify herself or ask me if she's been overly flakey in the past. We went out previously and when I done the anti flake text she then let me know we were restricted on time, it was about half an hour before meeting so rather than cancelling I decided to go out but not escalate. She messaged me immediately after the date and after a couple messages said we needed to go out again soon. I asked when she was free and she flat out ignored me. She came back after a few weeks with a low effort ping just saying she's bad at replying. I ignored the message because it was shit." -

TLDR - She ignored date request, came back in about 3 weeks to say "she's bad at replying". I don't think this deserved a response. When she came back the following week I wasn't overly enthusiastic to meet this girl again and feel she should have put in the effort. I had a girl do something similar before and when I followed my normal plan to lead and to get a date I just rewarded her behaviour which enabled it. I think it communicated that I accept that an will be happy with the scraps ya give me which isn't true at all.

Maybe its a bad mindset? Am just ridiculously busy at the moment an I value my time and don't want to waste it on girls that are being incredibly difficult.

 

[Watts]

@Watts dude! thanks for your thoughts and advice on this. I try to improve on everything from approach/pre approach, texting, dating. My dates have never been as ‘bad’ as they have with her but I find we’re on track and then she changes instantly and closes up. I step back and we get back on track. I can’t pinpoint what happened but she’ll go from being receptive to touch to complaining about it. She’ll comply and let me lead her and then resist a simple request usually one that’s less than what I’ve asked previously. She’s the only person I have encountered this behaviour with and I don’t understand it. (She done the same thing 6 years ago when she was more or less begging me to date her, I put it down to her being young and nervous/awkward. I didn’t know what I was doing back then and have only discovered this community in the last year)

Something similar happened to in Teevster's 10 year anniversary report briefly. His target's friends came over and then she went cold.

He backed off physically and then threw out some more sex talk and warmed her back up.

It's also true that if you're new to this, you may not have as many ideas as to what went wrong, and it's only something you'll learn from experience and reading different material that connects the dots.

Relevant Teevster:

but as I tried to go for a make out, she was suddenly stiff and resisting. I obviously backed off. Crap… anti-slut defense is still a thing I guess. But I did not worry too much, just take a step back and change strategy. Sometimes wildcards just pops up and you got to deal with them. That’s life for a serial seducer.

I went on using some light sex talk just to build the vibe back up… and for this I decided “good sex vs bad sex routine”, which is a very simple routine… but a good way to open up for more as you can see.

I have been reading your thread with Teevster and read the purity gambit. It’s a really interesting thread that’s got a lot of good information in and the purity gambit is something I have started to try out. I have read the recent stuff by Bacchus and have found it has helped a lot with my other interactions but this one still seems to be elusive. The best response I got was the first night we bumped into each other with the failed escalation, she was very accepting to the sexual frames and I was very aggressive/dominant which she responded really well to.

It's also possible the best response you got was when you were semi-new and exciting and she was open to a fast sex or at least whirlwind romance frame.

You’re right that I shouldn’t assume that she agrees with the SMV sentiment, or that her best options are mine. This was giving me a narrow view. She’s mid 20’s and I’m late 20’s. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head of looking for a guy to lock down. She told me how her friend she was out with when I first met her is married now and wondered what we would have been like if we didn’t split up. That was an alarm that was set of in my head!

Lol! Already planning the wedding! ... feel free to lean on this, hard, next time to see her as a last ditch effort for her to bang or leave you alone... i.e. "If we make the same mistake we made 6 years ago, it will be your fault."

I will try to focus on getting my dates better, but I’m at a loss as to how I can do this with her. I keep them simple, deep dive and build connection, lead, get investment and compliance and use touch unless I’m aiming for a no touch pick up. I tried this with her the first time and built to much tension, I touched her the second time to build more comfort but neither were ‘successful’. I wouldn’t advise this either, but while I’m busy and she’s hitting me up I see it as practice. If I go out with her again I will burn it to the ground if needed. I definitely like this approach to it.

I mean I can't give you concrete advise on this, but maybe you can post a FR with the right details of what you saw, the twists and turns, and either me or someone else will see some things to adjust.

And yeah, it's really about self-respect. You're putting a lot of time and energy in and she's not respecting your needs, what does that say about the treatment you'll accept for yourself?

Unfortunately I am that booked at the moment, I still try to get out once a week at the weekend and manage it most the time.

As long as you're going out enough to maintain, and hopefully to improve.

I’d like to clarify I’m not purposely waiting hours to reply, I reply when I can. I’ll drop girls messages during work breaks (if I get them), when I finish work, before I start training and then message them back after I’ve finished, sometimes straight away sometimes after a while if I’ve got other things I need to do. There’s no particular order or set times, I’ve just got a ridiculous schedule at the moment. They may get a really quick reply if I’m on my phone and get chance to reply. Although I have purposely ignored her last message for a day now, but that’s because I didn’t particularly like it. From experience she will follow it up.

Good that you aren't normally scheduling few hour delays or something like that.

What was this last message (and the last 5-10 leading up to it)?

And it's certainly fine to just not engage with a text that was in really bad taste from her, let her sit on it, and give her a chance to apologize / take something back / change the subject.

 

[Watts]

This possibly sounds fucked up because we know we need to lead. As a mentioned in the OP I will make a girl qualify herself or ask me if she's been overly flakey in the past. We went out previously and when I done the anti flake text she then let me know we were restricted on time, it was about half an hour before meeting so rather than cancelling I decided to go out but not escalate. She messaged me immediately after the date and after a couple messages said we needed to go out again soon. I asked when she was free and she flat out ignored me. She came back after a few weeks with a low effort ping just saying she's bad at replying. I ignored the message because it was shit." -

TLDR - She ignored date request, came back in about 3 weeks to say "she's bad at replying". I don't think this deserved a response. When she came back the following week I wasn't overly enthusiastic to meet this girl again and feel she should have put in the effort. I had a girl do something similar before and when I followed my normal plan to lead and to get a date I just rewarded her behaviour which enabled it. I think it communicated that I accept that an will be happy with the scraps ya give me which isn't true at all.

Maybe its a bad mindset? Am just ridiculously busy at the moment an I value my time and don't want to waste it on girls that are being incredibly difficult.

Three weeks is a long time to let that last interaction hang.

And Grand Pooba showed how you failed to lead that interaction forward.

I also think of leading as "how to give the other person an easy way to continue the conversation", in other words she just didn't know how to respond to your last text.

She might have thought about it for three weeks, done a council on the groupchat, no one has any advice, and she just finally said "fuck it. I'll send him a meme" or something, and that was it.

The point is she just isn't that smart, creative or socially intelligent.

Don't assume malice or lack of effort where stupidly or inexperience will do just fine.

And, again Grand Pooba showed you what you did wrong, which was sort of a basic issue you should be getting right.

In some sense you're mad at her (and/or punishing her) because you lacked the basic seduction skills to move things forward (for both of you).

 

[Grand Pooba]

"I had her "lead" the interaction on purpose, I usually take the hint of we need to go out soon to lead and make the plans but purposely set it up for her to do that. I baited her by saying "we will have to make plans" it was also open ended that I could come back and set it up if she didn't take initiative.

No dude, lol...this is the wrong way to think about it. It's not her job to lead the interaction and set up the date, it's yours. She was already, clearly and explicitly, showing interest in you and wanting a date. Her saying "let's meet up when you can get away" is clearly her wanting to meet up with you. But, YOU HAVE TO DO IT - all a girl can do is show interest and hope a guy picks up on it and takes the lead.

Again, she's NOT going to take the full initiative, because then she'll be a needy girl and unattractive.

At that point you don't need to bait her - what is the point of baiting her when she's already told you she wants to meet up. What exactly more are you trying to bait her into?

This possibly sounds fucked up because we know we need to lead. As a mentioned in the OP I will make a girl qualify herself or ask me if she's been overly flakey in the past. We went out previously and when I done the anti flake text she then let me know we were restricted on time, it was about half an hour before meeting so rather than cancelling I decided to go out but not escalate. She messaged me immediately after the date and after a couple messages said we needed to go out again soon. I asked when she was free and she flat out ignored me. She came back after a few weeks with a low effort ping just saying she's bad at replying. I ignored the message because it was shit." -

I don't understand why you would ask a girl if she's overly flakey - that subcommunicates to her that you're the type of guy who gets flaked on. She might even flake on you for that very reason.

To the other girl, sometimes if a girl doesn't respond in 48 hours I'll send another leading text. But in this case you don't just ask when she's free - you have to actually suggest a plan, especially if it's a second date. Again, that's part of the leading - you set up the plans, she has to accept or not. If she likes you, she'll accept - but you have to put it forth for her first. Concrete ideas.

TLDR - She ignored date request, came back in about 3 weeks to say "she's bad at replying".

Well, of course she said this - that's her plausible deniability and disappointment because you fucked up. Read between the lines here.

I don't think this deserved a response.

Again, it was your fault, not hers.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@Watts dude thanks for your detailed responses. The relevant Teevster report is very useful and has unlocked a few ideas and reminded me of similar interactions I have had in the past.

You’re right, the whirlwind romance frame would have possibly been the reason for the response. I do feel I was performing rather well that night and got a lot of momentum before bumping into her.

Already planning the wedding! :’) I try to avoid anything like this never mind leaning on it! Haha but I really like your frame about “If we make the same mistake we made 6 years ago, it will be your fault” I’m unsure how to work it in. I’m guessing it will have to be something that feels right at the time.

I’ll see how well I can remember the interaction and post a field report about it, this particular one was a while ago. I recently read Hectors post about posting field reports that he posted yesterday and know that this is something I haven’t done publicly. Occasionally when I start writing or talking about it with one of my mates the mistake(s) are obvious to me, but I couldn’t find anything glaringly obvious with this so would appreciate some feedback or things to adjust.

I’d like to think I’m going out enough to maintain, in some aspects I feel like I’m improving but it does show she isn’t respecting my needs and I haven’t been able to fix this.

Grand Pooba did show that I failed to lead the interaction forward, but I done this in a sense of ‘self-respect’ and ‘punishing’ her that I didn’t like the previous interaction and don’t value wasting time. You’re right again that this possibly wasn’t malice or too much lack of effort and that she isn’t smart, creative or socially intelligent. At which point punishing her and failing to lead is a failure on my part. I have had similar experiences in the past where I just lead as normal and set it up but the girl would do the exact same thing again. I started to ball in her court them or just sit back and wait for them to put in ‘effort’. It worked to be fair but I’m not exactly ‘leading’ by making it easy for her to continue. Again possibly misjudged it as lack of effort/malice but I see ignored date requests as rejections.

My texting isn’t that bad and usually looks more like Grand Poobas example/suggestions/corrections. Possibly came from a place where I was still frustrated, but as I have mentioned above I have had similar experiences where I find I keep letting these girls of the hook when they’re wasting my time and I feel I enable that behaviour and encourage them to do it again because I communicate that I tolerate/accept that behaviour. I guess am not getting the balance right between self-respect and leading/guiding them effectively when they come back.

I usually don’t engage with something that I feel was bad taste, let her think about it, apologise or change the subject. If they don't its a soft next or next, I have other options so if they decide to ignore a date request I'll go out with someone else. (I have included a background to this in my response to Grand Pooba below)

The last 10 messages leading up to the last one:

Her: I feel like I haven't seen you in forever, what have you been up to? Were you playing at XXX? I think I seen you when driving by and heard you were playing there.
Me: Yeah I was playing there last week, been up to much? Other than following me in your car xx
Her: You wish I was following you! Nothing much just work the usual boring. xx
Me: The usual sounds very fun, I bet you wish you were following me! xx
Her: Hows work going are you still busy as always? I'd be so tired following you all day you never sit still :') xx
Me: Always, I wouldn't know what to do with free time xx
Her: You need to stop being so busy so that we can go out! xxx
Me: No rest for the wicked! Yeah We'll have to make plans xxx
Her: Okay! When are you free? xxx
Me: I'm free Thursday xxx
Her: Sorry for the week late reply :') I've been on nights this week xxx

I think my texting was a little of here, but she just came back after ignoring me for basically 4 weeks and she's been awkward in the past (examples in the response to Grand Pooba below) but would appreciate any feedback with this, thanks dude!

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@Grand Pooba dude! thanks for your reply. I know she was showing interest in me and wanting a date, I always take the initiative and lead the interaction here but she done this before and when I took the lead she ignored me. This happened after the first date after the failed escalation:
She shown interest and I took the lead and set up a date (coffee and cake). After the failed escalation I Attempted a no touch seduction (mostly for practice, and not to escalate unless I knew I could finish I didn't want another failed escalation)it built a lot of sexual tension and she ejected. I thought oh well and then immediately she text me:

"sorry I didn't mean to do that!! I feel like I just bailed on you. I just got really nervous because I really like you. I really enjoyed tonight and I would like to go out again soon".

She had to go away for a week when I tried to schedule something (this was legit - family), she messaged when she came back and then ignored the date request (with a concrete idea that she had already accepted - "drinks"). A while passed and she came back again, I set up the date (again I lead this - Ice cream), this time decided to touch to be more ‘warm’ to calm her nerves and stop the ejection. She still ejected, again I got an immediate text:

"Sorry I feel like I just left you there. I didn't mean too. I'm just awkward. Sorry!"

...yeah... After a couple of messages she said that she wanted to go out again, and that we will have to go for those drinks. I tried to schedule something and she ignored the request again. (I seriously don't know what I'm doing wrong but I can't believe I asked her yet again)
She came back again, this is where I decided that I wanted her to set it up (the example in the OP - last 10 messages and some reasons behind some of my thoughts in my response to watts above).

This is a common occurrence for me, I will be taking the advice from watts and writing a field report on the dates to see if anyone can identify or highlight anything that they can see.

Maybe this is the wrong way to think about it, but this was me having some self-respect to not waste any more time. I was baiting her to know that she actually wanted it enough to set it up because I feel I have gave her enough chances here. Because of her overly flakey behaviour is why I didn’t ask her and why I waited for her to set it up this time. The other times when I set it up I gave her concrete ideas to go out and was successful in getting her out but she continued to be awkward.

I will accept that I have fucked up, and accept her plausible deniability but I didn’t feel it was sincere and felt like a ping of "Hi remember me". Watts is possibly right that this isn't malice or lack of effort and she's just not socially intelligent. I know I have fucked up and know I'm at fault but she seems to be self sabotaging when we're out and I have no idea how to overcome that dude!