Date Plans Girl goes MIA making plans?

[Watts]

dude thanks for your detailed responses. The relevant Teevster report is very useful and has unlocked a few ideas and reminded me of similar interactions I have had in the past.

You’re right, the whirlwind romance frame would have possibly been the reason for the response. I do feel I was performing rather well that night and got a lot of momentum before bumping into her.

I'm glad you found my feedback helpful (and also Teevster's stuff).

Already planning the wedding! :’) I try to avoid anything like this never mind leaning on it! Haha but I really like your frame about “If we make the same mistake we made 6 years ago, it will be your fault” I’m unsure how to work it in. I’m guessing it will have to be something that feels right at the time.

In my experience triggering scarcity after deep report or even dependence has been built has this effect on an indecisive or time wasting girl, making her finally hookup with or date you, but I there is also the possibility of her storming off, because you just put her to a decision... it is essentially an ultimatum.

My experience in the field specifically (and this was pre-game, a long time ago) was a very hot girl (a personal 9) who had been with her high school boyfriend for 8 years. I befriended her, told her I was interested, that is found her attractive, from the beginning, and that if she was single I'd definitely date her (didn't hide my sexual interest ever). Over the course of getting to know her for 6 weeks, we went to the gym together, hung out at her place (we lived in the same building), and generally got along and got used to each other. We had a strong connection and greatly enjoyed our time together. During this period I slowly whittled away at her boyfriend, subtly making him look bad for any small mistake.

When she was having trouble with actually deciding to break up with him I said "We spend a lot of time together. And I love that. And I know you love our time together too (today I'd probably have her agree to that). But the thing is, I'm single, I'm looking to date someone, I have needs. I can't spend all this time with you and still have time to go out and find someone for me. So if you're really determined to stay with (her boyfriend), then we can't spend this much time together." she was sad, but was understanding and didn't say anything one way or another. I then made myself scarce for three days, she called me, telling me they had taken a "break" or some such thing, and then I came over and the rest is history.

I’ll see how well I can remember the interaction and post a field report about it, this particular one was a while ago. I recently read Hectors post about posting field reports that he posted yesterday and know that this is something I haven’t done publicly. Occasionally when I start writing or talking about it with one of my mates the mistake(s) are obvious to me, but I couldn’t find anything glaringly obvious with this so would appreciate some feedback or things to adjust.

You never know what someone else might see.

I’d like to think I’m going out enough to maintain, in some aspects I feel like I’m improving but it does show she isn’t respecting my needs and I haven’t been able to fix this.

She is a special case. You go out regularly to improve or at least maintain. What is going on with her, that's complicated. You may have so many frames more or less set in stone at this point that it is unsalvageable (unless you want to buy into her frame completely). At the least, you don't have good traction.

Grand Pooba did show that I failed to lead the interaction forward, but I done this in a sense of ‘self-respect’ and ‘punishing’ her that I didn’t like the previous interaction and don’t value wasting time. You’re right again that this possibly wasn’t malice or too much lack of effort and that she isn’t smart, creative or socially intelligent. At which point punishing her and failing to lead is a failure on my part. I have had similar experiences in the past where I just lead as normal and set it up but the girl would do the exact same thing again. I started to ball in her court them or just sit back and wait for them to put in ‘effort’. It worked to be fair but I’m not exactly ‘leading’ by making it easy for her to continue. Again possibly misjudged it as lack of effort/malice but I see ignored date requests as rejections.

There are perspectives to it. I just take an approach that I could be better and improve (even if that means I have to be 3X as socially intelligent as her to make up for things), because it's the only thing under my control. But there is nothing wrong with setting up boundaries and not tolerating bad behavior (and it is necessary for your own self-respect). Just don't punish out of anger.

My texting isn’t that bad and usually looks more like Grand Poobas example/suggestions/corrections. Possibly came from a place where I was still frustrated, but as I have mentioned above I have had similar experiences where I find I keep letting these girls of the hook when they’re wasting my time and I feel I enable that behaviour and encourage them to do it again because I communicate that I tolerate/accept that behaviour. I guess am not getting the balance right between self-respect and leading/guiding them effectively when they come back.

Low expectations helps me not worry about the time wasting. If it's a fun diversion I can't be wasting my time, because I didn't expect anything to materialize anyway. Calms me down and keeps me present. And then if something does materialize, I'm pleasantly surprised.

I usually don’t engage with something that I feel was bad taste, let her think about it, apologise or change the subject. If they don't its a soft next or next, I have other options so if they decide to ignore a date request I'll go out with someone else. (I have included a background to this in my response to Grand Pooba below)

The last 10 messages leading up to the last one:

Her: I feel like I haven't seen you in forever, what have you been up to? Were you playing at XXX? I think I seen you when driving by and heard you were playing there.
Me: Yeah I was playing there last week, been up to much? Other than following me in your car xx
Her: You wish I was following you! Nothing much just work the usual boring. xx
Me: The usual sounds very fun, I bet you wish you were following me! xx
Her: Hows work going are you still busy as always? I'd be so tired following you all day you never sit still :') xx
Me: Always, I wouldn't know what to do with free time xx
Her: You need to stop being so busy so that we can go out! xxx
Me: No rest for the wicked! Yeah We'll have to make plans xxx
Her: Okay! When are you free? xxx
Me: I'm free Thursday xxx
Her: Sorry for the week late reply :') I've been on nights this week xxx

I think my texting was a little of here, but she just came back after ignoring me for basically 4 weeks and she's been awkward in the past (examples in the response to Grand Pooba below) but would appreciate any feedback with this, thanks dude!

Grand Pooba gave you good advice. And she seems keen enough from those texts. People get busy, and they also get anxiety, don't know what to do or say, especially if they like you. My advice from the first response still stands for how to handle it. And what wasn't mentioned by you was how long lapsed between "I'm free Thursday" and Thursday? Were there several days here where you could have said something?

 

[Grand Pooba]

After the failed escalation I Attempted a no touch seduction (mostly for practice, and not to escalate unless I knew I could finish I didn't want another failed escalation)it built a lot of sexual tension and she ejected. I thought oh well and then immediately she text me:

"sorry I didn't mean to do that!! I feel like I just bailed on you. I just got really nervous because I really like you. I really enjoyed tonight and I would like to go out again soon".

This is overall a good sign - she's being pretty honest with you that she likes you and is nervous, which is super vulnerable for a girl to do. She wants you to reassure her that you like her back, which also requires you to take a lead and schedule something.

My read is there is more to your story - not sure why you built up sexual tension and then didn't escalate. The whole point of building up sexual tension is to make the escalation seamless. Remember, you want the seduction to succeed... I'm not sure why it was decided to have a no touch seduction, at some point if you want to win you need to escalate all the way to sex. It sounds like you stopped yourself here, I'm not entirely sure why especially if it seems like she was down.

If a girl is interested in you and you give her the mixed messages of kind of wanting her but then not wanting her, it doesn't feel good to her (at least before sex; this combination is extremely addictive to a girl after she's already having sex with you, but not before having sex at least once, ideally with you giving her orgasms).

This is a common occurrence for me, I will be taking the advice from watts and writing a field report on the dates to see if anyone can identify or highlight anything that they can see.

Maybe this is the wrong way to think about it, but this was me having some self-respect to not waste any more time. I was baiting her to know that she actually wanted it enough to set it up because I feel I have gave her enough chances here. Because of her overly flakey behaviour is why I didn’t ask her and why I waited for her to set it up this time. The other times when I set it up I gave her concrete ideas to go out and was successful in getting her out but she continued to be awkward.

I will accept that I have fucked up, and accept her plausible deniability but I didn’t feel it was sincere and felt like a ping of "Hi remember me". Watts is possibly right that this isn't malice or lack of effort and she's just not socially intelligent. I know I have fucked up and know I'm at fault but she seems to be self sabotaging when we're out and I have no idea how to overcome that dude!

I don't know man, in this case it sounds still like you were not leading the interaction to sex and stalling, which confused her because she felt she was giving you a lot of interest. So it's understandable then that because of your own inaction to escalate with her, she now finds herself confused about you as well - and of course at the forefront of every girl's deepest worry is if the guy they like feels the same way back, or if he's just playing her to use her for sex.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@Watts Dude! Again I appreciate your thoughts and input on this, as mentioned previously I found yours and Teevster's thread "discussing momentum and decision making" very valuable and the quoted report from Teevster very relevant.

Don't get me wrong I like to use scarcity an usually use it when they're on the fence or if they're not quite hooked yet but I can tell they're just about there it usually tips it but I don't like the talk of marriage! :')
I'm a big fan of forcing decisions from indecisive girls and am happy to risk them walking of. I want an O or a No! A usually reserve this for a last chance effort or if I can't be bothered throwing absolutely everything but have tried sufficient times.

Well played dude! Great use of forcing a decision and to do this pre-game... Most guys wouldn't have the bottle an would sit in the friend zone hoping for something to happen. Not that ya will need me to tell ya this but thanks for the story it demonstrates a powerful technique in context.
Very true dude, there will be some further details in my future response to Grand Pooba below in response but I do feel I will have to combine it all in a FR.

She is a very special case, I have tried so many things when a have been out with her and they all seem to work and provoke a positive response but I can't succeed. I feel frames will be set in stone and this one might be overplayed but if I get a chance I will go for the Fclose or burn it down!
I always feel I could be better and improve, I try not to act out of anger and make a rational decision. I set boundaries but I try to keep doors open if girls come back. They have to really annoy me for me to shut down on them completely but I don't do backflips for them either they have to qualify themselves. I do feel I ignored her last message a little to long out of anger, I was intending on messaging her last night and the next thing I knew I was at training...Think I can get away with a week long reply? :')

A definitely had low expectations when she came back the last time never mind now :') last time I took it as a fun diversion, I'll try an be more open if this interaction continues. Thanks for the perspective I think its helped ground me!

Your first response if I recall correctly is show less fucks and pre emtively remove my availability if theres no response? Seeing that Thursday was last week that leaves me with giving less fucks?

I think I mentioned it was Monday when we were talking and her week long reply was Monday gone. There were 3 days where I could have said something but I guess I was purposely being difficult. Should I have messaged again or followed your suggestion of removing my availability on the day itself? Thanks dude!

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@Grand Pooba dude! I appreciate your thoughts and feedback on this, when she opened up and was vulnerable I took the lead, rewarded her for this effort/behaviour to encourage it and to reassure her but she then ignored it when I tried to schedule something. I assumed she changed her mind or was trying to play hard to get to acquire some of her 'power' back that she just gave away.

I was trying to summarise the date but I built up sexual tension to escalate. I done a no touch escalation about 4 days before and it made the escalation more explosive/receptive and very smooth so figured I would try it again. It definitely built up the tension, I touched (held) her hand/fingers, she was nervous and excited, looked in her eyes and gently pulled her in, put my other hand onto her hip (I could feel the tension pulsing) but I could also feel her nerves. We kissed and then she ejected. All the tension was defused, the no touch pick up was redundant and I have never seen anyone move away from me so fast (until I went out with her again, she moved faster the second time haha). As 'down' as she was, I felt like I misjudged and she wasn't interested :')

I thought I made my intention abundantly clear and she ejected. There was no LMR it was just lockdown, get away. Then she gave me that message. I never intended to give mixed messages and if she got confused I really don't know how to clear it up. My attempt to 'clear it up' involved touching her and getting her comfortable (the next time we went out - Ice cream) with my touch throughout but this ended up in the same way as the previous attempt. (Bolt would have lost his world record! The only thing faster was her thumbs to send the second apology text)

This is understandable, do I feel the same way back or am I playing her for sex.. Well I've played the game which has been overly difficult, faced with her running away from me several times and yet I was still prepared to give her my time last Thursday... At the moment it looks more like I have no self respect that I will put up with this or that she's one hell of a prize that I must have oneitus for. I don't, but I would have thought this would have reassured her. Very strange behaviour dude!

 

[Cody Lyans]

Probably are failing one of two tests
1) remaining interesting
2) seeming capable of hitting her sweet spot

So, just add in fluff texts and funny stuff, and maintain a great capable frame

 

[Watts]

@Watts Dude! Again I appreciate your thoughts and input on this, as mentioned previously I found yours and Teevster's thread "discussing momentum and decision making" very valuable and the quoted report from Teevster very relevant.

Glad they were helpful!

Don't get me wrong I like to use scarcity an usually use it when they're on the fence or if they're not quite hooked yet but I can tell they're just about there it usually tips it but I don't like the talk of marriage! :')

Me either. And a girl who's known you that long, and been riding around the carousel, perhaps without a stop, for six years, while her friend(s) have had steady boyfriends and/or gotten married, is not surprisingly reflecting on the situation.

It means you have to manage expectations carefully with her.

Also, just to give you some practical technique, I would specifically talk about how in six years a lot can happen (that's a huge amount of time by the way, really), and discuss how you could be in a wonderful relationship, have had passionate and great sex but been incompatible long term, or just hate each other's guts now.

I would then explain that the reason I think it didn't work then, and why I think it won't work now, if she doesn't make a change, is that she can't just be present to the moment, enjoy herself, and feel the basic passion and excitement for you (and let you just enjoy the passion and excitement for her).

I would then contrast it with her being worried about "6 years, when she can't even enjoy and appreciate 6 minutes" (nice little rhetorical contrast), and from there would challenge her to just sit and look in your eyes without saying a word for 6 minutes.

I would add the condition that she be present, appreciative, and accepting for that time.

I would then use intense but kind eye contact, and gradually move to touching and perhaps kissing (or just build tension, suit to your style).

I have done variations of this, open eyes meditation, and staring into a girl's eyes for just 10 minutes is an intense experience for both of you, and every time it's lead to making out or more.

I would also say that doing this should create a bit of a reset of the vibe, from the overly analytical of her thinking about finding a husband, and worrying about fucking one more guy who doesn't care about her (A strong guess from personal experience with what you've said and this type of girl and situation.).

That may be useful to then more smoothly escalate to sex (then, right after then, or later).

I'm a big fan of forcing decisions from indecisive girls and am happy to risk them walking of. I want an O or a No! A usually reserve this for a last chance effort or if I can't be bothered throwing absolutely everything but have tried sufficient times.

It's hard to pull that trigger (emotionally), until you realiz you're either in her guts or free of her time and attention wasting.

Well played dude! Great use of forcing a decision and to do this pre-game... Most guys wouldn't have the bottle an would sit in the friend zone hoping for something to happen. Not that ya will need me to tell ya this but thanks for the story it demonstrates a powerful technique in context.
Very true dude, there will be some further details in my future response to Grand Pooba below in response but I do feel I will have to combine it all in a FR.

Happy to do so. Those are some of the best to give insight.

If you want to put it all in a FR, that could help. I'd also say you've mined this interaction pretty well for any insights you might get right here. So I don't know that it's the best use of your time. Probably going out and trying to apply what you're learning here, and possibly getting a new FR worthy interaction is better for you all around (plus, makes you less needy and reactive with this girl).

She is a very special case, I have tried so many things when a have been out with her and they all seem to work and provoke a positive response but I can't succeed. I feel frames will be set in stone and this one might be overplayed but if I get a chance I will go for the Fclose or burn it down!
I always feel I could be better and improve, I try not to act out of anger and make a rational decision. I set boundaries but I try to keep doors open if girls come back. They have to really annoy me for me to shut down on them completely but I don't do backflips for them either they have to qualify themselves. I do feel I ignored her last message a little to long out of anger, I was intending on messaging her last night and the next thing I knew I was at training...Think I can get away with a week long reply? :')

This is growth.

Yes, she took a shot with a three week long reply, didn't she?

A definitely had low expectations when she came back the last time never mind now :') last time I took it as a fun diversion, I'll try an be more open if this interaction continues. Thanks for the perspective I think its helped ground me!

You're welcome.

Your first response if I recall correctly is show less fucks and pre emtively remove my availability if theres no response? Seeing that Thursday was last week that leaves me with giving less fucks?

Not sure I totally understand. I said if I felt like she was going to flake, I would pre-flake. It's a well established technique, with none other than the inimitable YaReally explaining it's virtues. And if she did start to flake, I would again be completely non-nonchalant about it. In fact here is a thread

by Hector on it:

Flake Response Technique: Keep Texting

Handling flakes is not fun. But it can be. Some of the funnest lays are when you come back from a flake or multiple flakes, then somehow manage to meet her, and when you do, she's VERY into you and you fuck and you feel like you knocked some dude out in the 12th round, knowing that you'd lose...

www.skilledseducer.com

I think I mentioned it was Monday when we were talking and her week long reply was Monday gone. There were 3 days where I could have said something but I guess I was purposely being difficult. Should I have messaged again or followed your suggestion of removing my availability on the day itself? Thanks dude!

I would have pinged, but not necessarily said "Hey, still free Thursday". I mean she knows you asked about Thursday, and she can just look up and see your last message, no need to repeat yourself. Something light or funny, or a callback to something you guys were talking about.

You could have done both though, since you had that stalker roleplay going on "I just saw a car that looked like yours follow me for 15 mins. Are you ok, you can just text me when you want to see me again "

But really, whatever would feel congruent to your style but didn't immediately reiterate asking to hang out again when she didn't respond to the last.