Long-Term Girlfriend losing interest in sex

[Marty]

Hey folks,

My girlfriend seems to be losing interest in sex.

(For those who weren't yet on the site at the time, or don't remember, this is a girl I stopped in the street in 2014 in a daygame cold approach that turned into a relationship.)

It's in stark contrast to my previous relationships where generally speaking the women continued to crave sex after I got bored with them for whatever reason.

What's also strange is that when we actually do get around to having sex, the sex is still amazing... once we get started, she often soaks the sheets with squirting and climaxes multiple times. The barrier seems to be at the start. Before she would be horny by herself and sometimes even initiate; in cases where I initiated, it would be straightforward. Now getting as far as foreplay is harder and harder. It's difficult to get her aroused. On the rare occasions when I've directly addressed it verbally, she says she's very tired or just wants to snuggle.

I think this has been gradually developing for 1-2 months. As far as I remember, at Christmas all was still okay. I also notice her withdrawing emotionally a little bit: not nasty to me, just noticeably cooler. Last-minute resistance should be something faced maybe the first couple times with a girl, if at all; I really don't want to deal with it in a relationship, it's too exhausting. Sometimes on the weekend when I'd be happy to have sex during the day, she resists until late in the night, when I'm too tired to enjoy it properly.

Hard to know what to do without knowing what the problem is. Even if I knew exactly what was causing it, the solution might be unclear: should I... Ignore her? Confront her? Cheat on her? Dump her? We have great plans to move together to another country in the next couple months, plans she herself encouraged vigorously. So many of my past relationships have ended in disaster, I really could hope for this one to be different. Any counsel graciously received.

Thank you,
Marty

 

[Franco]

Marty,

When you're this deep into a relationship, the cause of this is usually a combination of things, and it becomes more difficult to pinpoint given that there are so many developed nuances between the both of you.

That being said, the first two things that come to mind are:

• (a) You're approaching the 2 year drop with this girl and things are just becoming less passionate overall.
  
  (b) You're making her orgasm, but you're not occasionally giving her sex that is unexpected, exciting, and non-routine.

It can often be one or both of these things. In general, you should never really expect the passion to maintain its same level over time. It will always continually decline, even if it's a very "slight" decline over time. This happens on both ends -- the girl is completely yours, so you don't feel the same need to "dominate" her like you did in the first few months of the relationship. Likewise, she knows what to expect from you, so the raw lust that she had at the beginning begins to slowly wane. (NOTE: This doesn't mean that she doesn't love you or see you as the best man she's ever met, it just means she's a lot more comfortable in the relationship)

I would evaluate the two possibilities I listed above and see if you think they match with what you're experiencing. From there, it'll be easier to give you more guidance.

P.S. Good to hear from you every now and then, Marty! =)

- Franco

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

We have great plans to move together to another country in the next couple months, plans she herself encouraged vigorously. So many of my past relationships have ended in disaster, I really could hope for this one to be different. Any counsel graciously received.

I think this is the cause.

Our male brains would look at an impending move to a country with a girl and think "omg, our relationship is great! Let's get excited and fuck like rabbits!"

But right now, she's thinking "do I want to make this big a move? Is he gonna stick around? Do I want a longer term thing with him? Etc..." And deep down, whether she's conscious of it or not, she's wondering about the 2 year drop, as Franco pointed out, and that is really just a "is he gonna put a baby in the oven?"

If you two weren't moving soon, I don't think the 2 year drop would be as momentous an occasion, but I think this upcoming move is going to magnify the stakes.

A few questions:

You said she encouraged the move vigorously; does this mean she had to convince you? Did you yield to it or agree to it? This is actually super important. If it was a casual, "sure babe, let's move together," because you wanted it and she knows that you have the resources/balls to move on any time, this would be okay. But if she had to beg and plead and this move puts you at professional/financial risk, then she knows it's a "big deal" for you - and when girls can convince you of "big deals" that you're not totally on-board with, it's a mark against your dominance.

So is this move a risk for you financially? Emotionally? I mean obviously on some level, it's gotta be, but how much is important. The more of a risk it is to you, the more potentially damaging it is to her attraction for you. Again, the natural instinct is "wait, wouldn't that make her love me MORE that I'm sacrificing so much," but as you know by now, that's now how the feminine mind works, or really, how humans work. It's the investment we have in others, not their investment in us, that ultimate drives our evaluation.

should I... Ignore her? Confront her? Cheat on her? Dump her?

The fact that you're asking these questions is a good sign, my old friend! Most guys would be pleading for a way to salvage this, but you're asking the hard questions, the ones that really get to the core of it all.

I think before you decide on any of those courses of action, however, pay attention to this

So many of my past relationships have ended in disaster, I really could hope for this one to be different

I'm actually a huge romantic these days and a lovely relationship with a woman sounds just as delectable as my hookup sprees, maybe even more so.

But as I meander towards that phase, I always try to remind myself

"Always remember that woman is another human being, and even though she is the sex that submits, you can never full 'have' a girl. Never, never, never. Even if she stays with you for 50 years and until her last dying breath, she's never fully 'yours.'"

This relationship doesn't have to end in disaster, but "disaster" is a matter of perspective. My last relationship, which had multiple arcs, always ended each arc in a fabulous display of tears and broken hearts - until I moved away, there was never a "soft" ending to it. And I'm happy as hell for it. I'm a super extreme guy who enjoys existential pain as momentum for exploration and forward movement, but disaster is never really disaster, especially with time.

So I would strongly, strongly advise you utilize whatever religious or spiritual paradigm you love most and cultivate some humorous and playful detachment from the situation. Still love her and still desire her, but always know "this may end at any moment, and that would be beautiful and awesome in its own way."

Once you've got that, you'll see this situation much more clearly and be able to consider the options you've listed much more honestly.

Should you break up with her? Well, do you want to? Breaking up with her first, if done right and if you know she'll do it soon anyways, is a smart move in many ways and can get her hot and horny to either stay with you or get back with you soon after, but I never advocate men getting back together with ex's - it's never a smart move, even if it does work. So only break up with her if you think "all right, I'm done; it's time to move on."

Should you cheat on her? One of the most devoted girlfriends I know has been dating my good buddy for 5 1/2 years. They live together and, in many ways, she's the devoted girlfriend most men crave. Why does it work? Because this dude (who's also my age), is the most dangerous weapon with women I have ever seen, he's quite gorgeous, anddddddd he regularly smashes pussy on the side. He naturally stumbled on one-sided monogamy like a pro. I don't know if she knows it consciously, but I'm sure she suspects it, and the vigor with which she regularly chases him down is testament to how powerful the smell of other women on him is. I'd never recommend you do something against your conscience, but if you want to, maybe go do some cold approaches around town and see if you can shag some bitties. Would definitely give you a heightened perspective on this.

Should you ignore it? I don't think so.

Should you confront her? When I just passively watched emotional downs with my girlfriend and did nothing, it almost always backfired. Her malaise or bitterness would amplify OR it would bother me so much that I'd confront her, but it wouldn't be the calm curiosity of my first observations - it turned into a slightly paranoid and jealous inquisition. Some might advocate a stoic "I don't want to let her know it bothers me," but that's, for relationships, really dumb when taken to the extreme. I think that the next time she puts up some strange resistance to sex and it's a turn-off at how much you have to persist, slow down the escalation, then casually lay back and say "hey, babe, I've noticed the past few times we've had sex, it was really great once we got going, because we're fucking rock-stars together in bed, but you seemed hesitant at the start. What's been on your mind?"

If she gives you a vague excuse like "I'm tired" or whatever, keep pressing gently. Not in a scared or paranoid way, but a "hey, I love you and care about you, so I want to find out what' bothering you" way. Not worried about your end, only hers. Sure, the consequence of her behavior is you having to work for the pussy, but the primary problem is how she feels. This approach will not only be more effective because it's focused on HER and devoid of selfishness (which is probably the reason she's been giving vague answers, because she senses it's sexual frustration that's driving you, not empathy) and she'll feel cared for, which will also open her up.

The macro-cause for all of this, as I've said, is the big move you two are planning, so look for the problem there

But I suppose on an even higher level, you should consider whether or not you want to have a kid with this girl. She was 25 at the time of the report, so she's either 26 or 27 now. What's her stance on children? If she's professionally focused, her timeline might be pushed back, but she's still coming upon that time.

No matter what happens, remember that you'll be alright! Everything's gooddddddddddddddd.

As Franco noted, it's always great to hear from you, my friend

Hector

 

[Marty]

Franco, Anatman, thank you both so much for your speedy responses.

The two articles you linked are extremely helpful, Franco. On the 2-year drop, I do understand what you say about a gradual cooling off. I think what worried me was that it was more sudden: up until New Year's or so we were having sex almost daily. It dropped precipitately from, let's say, 6 times a week to maybe 2 times a week in the space of under two months.

I do of course understand the importance of having children. I actually have school-age offspring from a previous (failed) marriage, with whom I have an excellent and ongoing relationship, and my girlfriend encourages and supports me in maintaining that. She herself however is somewhat career-oriented, and though she is in her late twenties, which is in my humble opinion an excellent age to get knocked up if one isn't already (my first wife was younger than the GF is now when she gave birth), she is less than enthusiastic about the idea. You may remember that she is a performer, and stage careers are even less forgiving than many others about time off to spend with the family.

I think the second possibility you mentioned is quite a likely candidate. We do have strong sexual chemistry... just the smell of her skin turns me on, and she often comments flirtatiously about my body. But I could certainly do better about making intercourse more impromptu and spontaneous. In the past that happened a lot, but I didn't need to do much, it just took place by itself... I think that's why I'm having difficulty knowing how to bring it about proactively.

One thing I remember she said recently, in a sexual context: "Everything you do is well within my comfort zone". This troubles me even though it was ostensibly intended as reassurance. Apparently, she has in the past deliberately had men she cared little about push her boundaries, so that she understood herself and her own limits. One evidently transgressed a boundary she didn't know she had at one point, causing her to realize a particular limit of her own: she won't say what activity it was exactly, other than that it involved her breasts in some way.

However, all the self-help I read online (and I know you are going to say keep away from that advice), without exception, starts with the same recommendation: set hard limits for yourself and discuss those with your partner. In my case, my hard limit is doing anything that would cause her distress or discomfort. I am not prepared to do that even in the name of experimentation.

You said she encouraged the move vigorously; does this mean she had to convince you? Did you yield to it or agree to it? This is actually super important.

So this is how it worked, Anatman. I was headhunted for a high-profile job; the client was enormously enthusiastic, flying me over to Europe business class at two days' notice in an attempt to get me to see what a great fit it would be. But I'm a lazy SOB when it comes to employment, and I thought it might be nice to stay in my current, fairly well-paid job where I have relatively little to do most of the time and can just spend the time chilling and doing as few hours as possible. She, however, correctly pointed out that if I let this opportunity pass, I'd get itchy feet in about six months based on past experience and would be cursing myself at not jumping while I had the chance. I have to admit she was right, and we're moving, and I'm super enthusiastic about it; but it fits extremely well with her career plans too, you have to understand, if only in terms of overall prospects.

Most guys would be pleading for a way to salvage this

She's really wonderful, as I keep reminding myself every time I see her or think of her; but the above just isn't my way. If I thought her heart wasn't in it, there would be no point. Verbally, though, she tells me very positive things. Physically she's affectionate too. It's just the odd, occasional emotional symptom that I mentioned before, plus the "late-stage LMR" which is so totally ridiculous ;-)

My last relationship, which had multiple arcs, always ended each arc in a fabulous display of tears and broken hearts - until I moved away, there was never a "soft" ending to it. And I'm happy as hell for it.

Yes. I can totally relate to this point.

I think that the next time she puts up some strange resistance to sex and it's a turn-off at how much you have to persist, slow down the escalation, then casually lay back and say "hey, babe, I've noticed the past few times we've had sex, it was really great once we got going, because we're fucking rock-stars together in bed, but you seemed hesitant at the start. What's been on your mind?"

Awesome advice. I love it.

This approach will not only be more effective because it's focused on HER and devoid of selfishness (which is probably the reason she's been giving vague answers, because she senses it's sexual frustration that's driving you, not empathy) and she'll feel cared for, which will also open her up.

I think there's more than an element of truth here actually. I need to do some work and a little introspection on this part.

But I suppose on an even higher level, you should consider whether or not you want to have a kid with this girl. She was 25 at the time of the report, so she's either 26 or 27 now. What's her stance on children? If she's professionally focused, her timeline might be pushed back, but she's still coming upon that time.

Despite what I wrote to Franco above, the product of the two of us would be an awesome thing It would be amusing to ask her in this context, and would probably provoke a snarky feminist response of the kind: "Oh, so because I'm acting different in your perception I must be hormonal and broody, huh?" which would bring a wry smile to my lips in the satisfaction of getting a good-natured rise out of her ;-)

Frankly I'm counting on the problem being solved by the international move and the excitement of exploring together a place new to both of us. If not before. But meanwhile, I am extremely gratified to get help from both of you, Franco and Anatman.

Thank you,
Marty

 

[Chase]

Hey Marty!

Props on the new job. And nice job making it so far with this girl. Good to hear things are going solidly with you.

Great feedback from Franco and Hector. Yeah, it might be the impending move… she might realize this is getting super serious now, and be trying to figure out if that’s what she wants.

I dealt with dry pussy syndrome with an off-and-on girlfriend I had for a while. First 1.5 years she was always wet and willing, and then she began to grow disgusted with me and my philandering and uncommitted ways, and going into her was like dragging my dick across sandpaper. Once we finally got going she’d moisten up and eventually cum like a champ, but getting into was always a prolonged struggle and no amount of foreplay could open the floodgates. And no number of orgasms would make her any wetter the next time around, either.

At the time, I felt like I had to make sure we always had sex once I initiated, or I would “lose my power”. I’ve since learned there’s more power in walking away, and when I’ve faced “dry pussy” with subsequent girlfriends, I’ll typically just go, “Eh, never mind,” put my penis back in my pants, and either go to sleep or leave (unless I am super horny… in which case, I will stiffen my upper lip and prepare to meet some sandpaper).

What I’ve found is any time I’ve done this once or twice with a girlfriend (“this” meaning “Eh, never mind”, not “Here comes the sand paper!”), then been cooler / less interested in her the following 3 to 5 days, I’m typically met not long after by a suddenly-reinvigorated girlfriend who now wants to have sex and is wet, wild, and willing all over again.

I suspect what does this is the girl can tell my attitude is basically just, “Oh. Can’t get what I want here. All right, might as well start withdrawing my attention and putting it somewhere more productive instead,” and it’s an obvious shift, and it’s a calm one, and not malicious or resentful. It’s simply a decision to reroute my energy somewhere it’s wanted. And it seems like this is extremely attractive.

Seems to show the girl you are perfectly fine not getting sex from her, but if she sees you as a masculine, high sex drive guy she’s also going to know if you go without sex for a certain amount of time, sooner or later you’re going to get it from SOMEWHERE. So in this case, her behavior leads to a very real threat on the relationship. Which can often be what she needed – seems to me that dry pussy syndrome happens most often when things are feeling a little too secure for her. Her realizing you could easily walk away from her and replace her without even getting all that emotional about it is sometimes just what the love doctor ordered. It’s a takeaway, of sorts, and a definite punishing of bad behavior; she’s uninterested in sex, you’re uninterested in her.

Whereas what I did with that earlier girlfriend, and what it sounds like you are doing, was to reward bad behavior: she gives offers up dry pussy, you spend 20 minutes prying my cock into her (i.e., devoting loads of time and effort into trying to get sex with her), then deliver her up a bunch of orgasms. If that doesn’t make a woman feel validated, little will.

Simple operant conditioning, really: she withdraws sex, you withdraw attention. Not out of bitterness or spite, but simply because you only have so much energy, and if there’s no benefit for you here you might as well invest that energy elsewhere.

That said, I really like Hector’s advice of picking her brain and seeing if she can point it out to you! Though I will also add that in my experience, her telling you what it is can be about 50/50 for restoring her sex drive; some times she tells you, feels like you’re on the same page, and then grows suddenly horny for you; other times she tells you, but it’s not really the REAL reason (whether she knows this or not), and she’s still bone dry. In that case, you may need to try the “Eh, never mind” approach.

Also, protip if you’re moving in together in Europe: get separate bedrooms. Men sleep better when they sleep alone (there’s actually research on this; when a man shares a bed with a woman, his sleep is less restful, though she sleeps better), and it keeps the sex better too. I suspect a lot of the loss of sex drive of couples who live together comes because they sleep in the same bed; you’re never going to have sex EVERY night, and if you spend enough nights dropping into the same bed sexlessly together, you’re simply conditioning one another to view each other as platonic bedmates as you do this more and more with time. When it’s separate bedrooms, it pretty much means only one thing when either of you visits the other at night time, and so the sex drive survives.

Chase

 

[Marty]

Chase, I think this really nailed it in terms of "walking away", directing energy elsewhere etc. This was what convinced me:

Seems to show the girl you are perfectly fine not getting sex from her, but if she sees you as a masculine, high sex drive guy she’s also going to know if you go without sex for a certain amount of time, sooner or later you’re going to get it from SOMEWHERE.

A couple nights ago, escalation was going nowhere when she complained of menstrual cramps... frankly I was very sympathetic, because there's no reason to try to persuade her if she's not going to enjoy it; at another time of month, I might have been subject to this thought process—

At the time, I felt like I had to make sure we always had sex once I initiated, or I would “lose my power”.

—but in this situation, that made no sense, because if she isn't getting pleasure, then what is the point? (It is worth mentioning however that this girl in the past would typically want sex throughout the month, period or not.) She basically told me sex wasn't going to happen that night.

So I literally directed my energy elsewhere, to something I had been studying recently. Not five minutes after she had said she didn't think she could have sex, she started attacking me a feminine erotic manner. I escalated quickly and pretty soon she had soaked the sheets with copious pussy juice laced with menstrual blood.

Afterward, as she lay satisfied, she mentioned that over the last few weeks, there had been instances when I had failed to "listen to her body", i.e. had escalated toward sex before she was really ready. Like any other criticism from an authoritative source, I take this on with humility and admit that it is probably true. She also mentioned that it had never been a problem before that, which again is in line with my own thinking. So either I have recently become an insensitive boor (which is always a possibility!), or more likely, in view of the "Two-Year Drop" that Franco mentioned she has simply become, through no fault of her own, slower to become aroused; and I, who with an unfamiliar girl would be hypersensitive to her stage of arousal, have slipped into auto-pilot because I feel I "know" her and am operating according to a mental stopwatch instead of using my perfectly capable male intuition.

Here's an odd thing which I noticed some time ago, and which someone can maybe help me with. I seem to be extremely well-attuned to the girl's level of excitement once she is already substantially aroused, during foreplay or intercourse; I seem to know intuitively from her breathing and other signals, exactly how far she is from her own climax, and am able to take her to the edge of release, deliberately slow things and pull back, driving her wild with anticipation, sometimes even causing her to sink her nails into me or kick in fury in a woman's sexual tantrum, then have mercy and push her beyond the point of no return. This works with fingers and tongue as well as during penetrative sex, and the dominance thus exerted not only boosts her climaxes, but makes her as meek and loving as a little lamb for hours or even days afterward. Interestingly and paradoxically, perhaps, this power game works terrifically well with this most independent-minded, self-reliant and feminist of young women.

However, before she is fully aroused it is a totally different story. I make mistakes, know I have gone off-course, sometimes cause her to ask me to do something different, or express irritation, touch things too early, do things too hard or too soft, and generally mess up. Getting to the point of foreplay seems to be a skill that in my case is totally underdeveloped compared with the next stage (let's say, once her pussy is wet). One possible solution might be never to escalate with her at all, but let her initiate in all cases; she has a strong sex-drive and it would come out sooner or later. But for some reason, the thought of doing it this way causes me concern.

It is almost as if I need to have some power in order to be able to exert control... just as you can't steer a bicycle or a car very well unless you have at least a little speed. Imagine that I can drive a powerful engine on a meandering country road, hugging all the bends at speed and holding the road perfectly; yet when she says "you're not listening to my body", it's as if I were forced to roll in neutral down a slight incline at 1 mph and were then being accused of inaccurate steering. Make sense?

Thanks again for all your help.

-Marty

 

[Drck]

Just my two cents - how about her listening to your body? Is she writing long texts, asking advice from her friends - how to satisfy you? I bet not...

IMO that's the problem, she is on a pedestal, she is slowly gaining more power in the relationship... overall, you do more for the relationship than she does, thus she is slowly losing interest...

 

[Marty]

Drck, you are partway right in that I do for the relationship what I do best, which is being good to her, so I bring her coffee in the morning, make her breakfast, and generally attend to her physical needs.

In return she gives me what she calls "emotional support": I am not very good at making decisions in general and tend to rely on my intuition instead of cold hard logic (my Myers-Brigg on the t/f dimension has a great big F), so she helps me to think things through coolly when I am indecisive, which is all of the time!

So it is true that I do a lot for her in the day-to-day to make her life easier. But I say you are only "partway right" because you then conclude that she will lose interest, which makes no sense... she has it easy and all her needs attended to, all she has to do is help talk me through difficult decisions, so why would she want to change that if she has it so good?

 

[Drck]

Hi Marty,

what I'm saying is, that she is slowly gaining power in the relationship by denying you sex, that is by making the access to it more difficult over time, while it was unlimited at first...

In simple way it is sort of: you'll do this and we can have sex, but if you'll do that there won't be any sex. Most men of course follow what the woman wants because they want the sex (duh). The man can be a great and sexy guy but he always, somehow, thinks that it is his fault why she doesn't want to have sex. She is tired, she is not in the mood, she's busy with this and that, she worries too much about her family, she's got to postpone things for later... Right...

Then he goes and makes excuses for her behavior. He feels bad, he apologizes, he goes over everything that HE is doing wrong, he tries to do more and more to satisfy her, to bring her more pleasure...

Well, he did really nothing wrong. What happened is that he is slowly becoming domesticated, sort of manipulated into being a follower in that relationship, while she is becoming the leader... He is becoming a provider - a guy who works very hard to get some pleasure here and there. After a while, perhaps just some random pleasure here and there... He will do exactly what she wants - or there will be hell. Hell in some form of miserable feelings that she will masterfully ignite in him...

We also know that being a provider is not the greatest position for man to be. She keeps him around for the safety - but at the same time her attraction slowly fades away...

-----------

"which is being good to her, so I bring her coffee in the morning, make her breakfast, and generally attend to her physical needs"
>>>> That's great. But let me ask you a question: What does she do for you? I don't need to know the answer, but you should answer it honestly to yourself. If you do more for her more than she does for you (say you do 60-70% while she does 30-40%) you are becoming the weaker part of the relationship... You are already the weaker one... If that's the case, you sort of want to reverse it - you 45% and she 55%, if possible...

"In return she gives me what she calls "emotional support": I am not very good at making decisions in general and tend to rely on my intuition instead of cold hard logic (my Myers-Brigg on the t/f dimension has a great big F), so she helps me to think things through coolly when I am indecisive, which is all of the time!"
>>>> I don't want to give you wrong advice because you have different personality and style than me, but think about the classical 'Alpha' male for a second. He doesn't let any woman decide for him, he always makes his own decisions independently of others... Which is a big part of the attraction, because she knows she can't influence him that easily, perhaps not at all...

"she has it easy and all her needs attended to, all she has to do is help talk me through difficult decisions, so why would she want to change that if she has it so good?"
>>>> She doesn't want to change it, that's actually exactly what she wants - to have it easy. That's what women want, a great guy who do things for her so she has it easy. Unfortunately the price to pay for it is quite big - slow loss of attraction, slow loss of respect, more and more coldness...

 

[ray_zorse]

Hey Marty,

I read your original post about your gf with interest and it's good to have an update now and then.

The problems of which you speak are problems that interest me a lot, and which I have a bit of experience with, so I'm gonna weigh in a bit here. As a background well I'm taking a bit of a break from seduction, like you, because I really like my current relationship. But I decided my current investigations in seduction should be in the area of relationship management, because that's at least something I can do whilst in a relationship, even if I'm not regularly approaching or dating. Relationship management is a continual challenge, and the reason for this is the nature of females. Like you I have school age children from my previous marriage, and whilst marriaed I would often wonder why my wife would be deliberately uncooperative, and do strange things that seemed like they wouldn't even benefit her, but rather would just cause problems for both of us for no reason. I recently discovered that this is because of women's tests.

My point 1:

Now that I understand tests properly, I can read my current girlfriend's behaviour quite well. I recommend you read "Franco Seduction" on this matter since his book "Manual of Seduction" is basically a book-length discussion of this very topic. But I'll try to keep it simple and just speak from my own experience. The first thing to keep in mind is that WOMEN TEST YOU CONSTANTLY, YOU ARE NEVER SAFE, EVEN IN AN ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIP. As an example let's consider last night. We'd just finished watching a video and she said something like "I am thirsty, can you get me a water". And like you, I really care for my girl and want her to be happy and comfortable (and she's pregnant), my first reaction was to do it, BUT, her beguiling look and soft cute voice tone said TESTING... so I couldn't afford to cave in like that, instead I took the view that if someone wants a thing they should go and get it. So I chuckled and said in a puzzled tone "it's just over there...?" ... she looked a little put out, so I pressed home the advantage... grin and add cheekily "oh, and while you're there... get me a beer". Her response? ... She grabbed me and started deep throating me, nearly ate my face off, and we fucked. Water all forgotten. See my point?

Refusing sex or failing to get horny and PARTICULARLY that thing where you said she had a boundary that couldn't be crossed ... that's all bullshit, IT'S ALL A TEST, believe me on this point. Women are water -- they want sex when you want sex -- without exception in my experience. I know, it's diametrically opposed to what we are taught, even sounds a bit rapey, but believe me, she want you to decide when sex happens, and to take her when you desire her. That's what will make her happy. The only thing that will make her happier, is if she resists sex and you overcome it without losing your frame, e.g. by dismissing her tests like I described above. An exception to the rule that she wants sex when you want sex -- is if sexual attraction has dropped or is starting to drop. And in my opinion, this only occurs after you fail her tests. Otherwise you're golden. You can also fail some tests and still be OK (lose the battle; win the war), it just means that she will test you harder next time -- she becomes emboldened, her behaviour becomes more and more unreasonable until you set a boundary.

I'm also a bit concerned about this discussion you've had with her in which she says some guy in her past DID SOME BAD THING TO HER -- IGNORE -- IT'S A WHITE-KNIGHT TEST. Her problems are her problems. What she's basically doing, is trying to undermine your sexual confidence by comparing you to this guy and suggesting that if you do certain things it'll be rapey. She does this in order to see if she can successfully do it. If she can do it, then you failed the test. Also, her not saying what it is, is a classic manouevre to sow doubt and uncertainty, and to see if you will "bite" -- keep asking her and wheedling it out of her. If you do this you also failed the test. You have to act completely indifferent and unconcerned, obviously LOTS OF OTHER GUYS ARE DICKHEADS, IT'S OF NO CONSEQUENCE TO YOU. Her past relationship mistakes are completely her issue. You just need to shrug it all off, don't engage, and change subject.

The rest of my response will basically be a pastiche of what's already been said.

My point 2:

Franco is definitely on the money, you have to keep giving her new and interesting experiences. YOU are the man, YOU must lead. I'm going to point you firstly at this post, this is a quite long summary of the most interesting (sex-wise) relationship I have had to date, unfortunately I don't see this girl anymore... I felt a bit of a dick that I had written the post at all actually, since it sounded like pointless boasting in the original context, but anyway, here it is. I note it's pretty damn difficult to keep up this kind of inventiveness on a long term basis, and I've been struggling a bit with this issue with my current girl, I took her for a long walk last night on a deserted bike path thinking I would wrestle her to the ground somewhere and fuck her in the open, but no real good location presented itself. I've been a bit of a pussy lately.

My point 3:

You said your hard boundary is anything that makes her uncomfortable. You must make her uncomfortable on a regular basis! Otherwise you are not expanding her comfort zone! Women love EMOTIONS! And, if you don't occasionally encounter a hard boundary on her part, THEN YOU ARE NOT PUSHING AS HARD AS YOU POSSIBLY COULD. Let's put it this way -- she constantly tests you -- and sometimes makes you quite uncomfortable. It's your job to push back, if you don't you're weak. And in reverse -- say you want anal sex -- it's your job to push for it, despite if it makes her uncomfortable. It's her job to push back, if she doesn't she's weak. A relationship can handle this sort of boundary setting, in fact that's what defines a healthy (rather than a co-dependent) relationship. As an example I'm going to point you to a description of one of my attempts to have anal sex with my girl. Even though I ultimately failed on that occasion there's a lot to be learnt there, in terms of things like takeaways, dominance and so on. But my main point is that I TRIED TO GET WHAT I WANTED. See the story here, it's about halfway through with a bold heading.

My point 4:

Yes, totally identify with what Chase said about "I felt like I had to push through the resistance or I'd lose my power". To summarize the middle part of Chase's post: Use takeaways. Yes, very important. You need to judiciously use takeaways OR pushing to sex. I just let my instinct guide me, based on the situation.

My point 5:

Yes, Drck is totally on the money, you're definitely taking a bit of a white knight attitude here. You're making excuses for her behaviour based on bullshit that she has cleverly planted with you. This is something that all women do, so it's not like she's being dishonest or disrespecting you or anything, she's just being a woman, and buyer beware haha. I know you love your girlfriend and everything, but you need to be much more of a badass to keep your relationship healthy.

My point 6:

About the pregnancy issue, CONSCIOUSLY she doesn't want a baby, but I would guess that SUBCONSCIOUSLY she does. Remember women's primitive brain doesn't KNOW that condoms and birth control exist. I reckon that knocking her up would trigger enormous attraction, but since your seduction career would basically be over if that happened, you probably want to think carefully about whether you REALLY want to commit to her, especially if she is losing attraction. There is nothing more horrible than being trapped in a relationship with a woman who is not sexually attracted to you. Her behaviour is TERRIBLE! Sexually speaking, she has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO LOSE by testing you harder and harder and harder, until she becomes a real psychopath. If you never set a boundary, you will be a doormat for the rest of your life. I'm convinced even normal women are capable of turning into psychopaths in this way.

Ray

 

[ray_zorse]

Hey Marty,

I was thinking about this overnight a bit more, and I realized I hadn't addressed Anatman's comments, apologies if I am incorrect on details here because I just dropped kids & have a few mins to spare before gym if I am quick.

So it sounds to me like "Hey I need to move to XXX city for my career, come and live with me there!" could be a compliance test and if so, quite a big one. She'd be thinking "ohh well this will never fly but I may as well try it on" and then when you said "oh... okay, great... let's do that" she'd be like "ohh, I thought I was going to have to make complicated arrangements to commute back and forth and blah blah, but now I've got my boyfriend in my handbag! Wonderful for me!".

A confounding factor here is you have kids, how could you move to another city if you have kids living with their mum in your current city? (Or perhaps that isn't the situation in which case feel free to disregard my comments). Remember that women's attraction is largely based on mate value and one of the things (the most important thing) that comprises mate value is whether you'll protect her and the kids after she gets pregnant and/or has the baby. She'd be thinking "OMG if he's that easily led then what if he has some little bitty on the side and she convinces him to move away from me leaving me with young kids to fend for myself?!". Yes I KNOW she says she doesn't want kids but (a) you can't necessarily believe she's telling the truth and (b) her emotional brain doesn't understand contraception or birth control or careers, only MATE VALUE.

If it's a compliance test then you probably failed a number of smaller compliance tests prior, to embolden her to try this on.

Ray

 

[Marty]

Hey Ray,

You're probably right about a lot of this. I know that sounds terse and a bit vague after you wrote so much valuable stuff, but I only just saw it and can't make an immediate assessment of it, I'll have to interpret it in light of what I see happening in the coming weeks.

This made me chuckle:

OMG if he's that easily led then what if he has some little bitty on the side

...because it is always a bit shocking when you see yourself reflected like that, particularly by someone you don't know well and whom you didn't expect to be able to make such an accurate assessment of character on the information given.

Anyway, what has happened is that we seem to have settled into an equilibrium whereby I don't press for sex at all, ever, and every 3 to 4 days she just gets crazy horny and starts rubbing up against me like a wild thing, at a seemingly random time (once it happened in the middle of the night), squirming her hips and grinding against me in an unmistakable display of female lust.

So needless to say I satisfy her, thoroughly, aggressively and with multiple repetitions, we change the sheets, we are both exhausted and then nothing happens again for the next couple days.

Actually it suits me perfectly fine, but it's kind of odd for me to get used to such female sexual aggression. At least I always know when she wants it.

-Marty

 

[Lotus]

Marty,

A lot of awesome advice has been given which I'm not going to add to. You obviously satisfy her because you have been together for a while. While you soak in Ray's awesome posts(which I have a lot to apply myself):

we seem to have settled into an equilibrium whereby I don't press for sex at all, ever, and every 3 to 4 days she just gets crazy horny and starts rubbing up against me like a wild thing, at a seemingly random time (once it happened in the middle of the night), squirming her hips and grinding against me in an unmistakable display of female lust.

So you don't press for sex and thus she randomly rewards you by giving you sex when she wants to?

You have sex when she wants to, but not when you want to?

Actually it suits me perfectly fine.

Does it really, or is that your ego rationalizing?

Just some more food for thought

-Lotus

 

[Marty]

Lotus,

Did you previously publish under a different name? I feel like I recognize your avatar from back in the day, but not your screen name.

Anyway:

You have sex when she wants to, but not when you want to?

I feel like something must be missing from my explanation if you're asking this. I think I probably expressed myself badly.

Yes, clearly we have sex when and only when she wants to (sex with a woman who doesn't want to isn't normally called "sex", there's a different word for that); as for what I want, this is and always has been to give her sex that satisfies her and keeps her thinking I'm awesome. That applies not only to quality, sensitivity, piquancy, excitement and so forth, but also to frequency.

The way I addressed this problem for the first year (plus) of the relationship was to press for sex (as actually advised ubiquitously on this site) at regular intervals, she normally thought that was a swell idea, and we got to it. In recent months I started to experience a decline in her acceptance rate if you want to call it that. What I'm saying now is that I've taken a backseat from the pressing-for-sex bit, she wants sex anyway, and I don't have to worry about the frequency being adequate since she seems to be self-calibrating that part.

Does it really, or is that your ego rationalizing?

The reason I say it suits me fine is because I don't need to constantly worry about whether she is getting enough sex any longer, it seems as if she's taken to basically giving me a shout when she needs it.

Make sense?

-Marty

 

[Drck]

Hey Marty, Ray posted a link to an interesting article some while ago, just curious if you recognize any of the behavior:

http://shrink4men.com/2013/05/29/abused ... -part-one/

IMO, I'm not saying this is some malicious behavior that females do to hurt men, it rather seems that reducing sex is common way to "secure" a provider, perhaps even done subconsciously...

On the other hand, Red Pill guy would simply say that this is nothing else than manipulation; women use such behavior to assert their dominance over men, while fully aware of what they are doing...

Relationships are constant struggle for power, the one who is investing more is usually the one with less power... It's actually quite simple, all the woman has to do to gain the power in the relationship is to start slowly denying what he desires... True 'Alpha' male would simply walk away because he doesn't get that one thing he really wants; many others will become sooner or later domesticated... One day they may wake up because they are fully frustrated with their lives, and they recognize the Matrix and illusion that Red Pill guys always talk about... Many times it is too late though - now they have to pay alimony and child support, now they are isolated and lost their houses, now all the family, family friends and most of the society are looking at them as if they are the villains, now they are self medicating their depressions with alcohol...

The Matrix - is it real, or not?

 

[Lotus]

Marty,

I used to post under the name Brum .

It makes sense, and I wasn't implying that you force sex upon her when she doesn't want to. Better wording would have been you are content allowing her to be in the drivers seat, initiating.

-Lotus

 

[ChalupaBatman]

Omg this thread is just what I needed. Not to high jack Marty's thread, but this crap has been going on with me for a while and my thoughts were somewhat the same as what Chase mentioned...to just cool off her and devote energy elsewhere.

I have been dating this girl for 1 1/2 years. Basically we were at the movies and I suggested we leave early to get some stuff done, as it was already very late and we had an early day tomorrow. She turned to me and said, you know, just because we are going home early doesn't mean there is any hanky panky. I was furious, because it was Friday night, and it had been well over 10 days since we had last slept together. However I held it together, and when we got back to her place I spent the night..no cuddling or affection. I got up early, did a quick kiss and I left. She has not texted me and I have not texted her for over 24 hours. I do not intend to text, nor spend the night for a couple of nights. If this problem persists Im finally done with this relationship.

One other issue is that the sex has not been fantastic between us lately. I am struggling to get her off with my member. It has always been like this though, she tells me even with other guys it is hard for her. But usually I can get her to orgasm with my member. I can get her off orally though anytime. I am also struggling to spice this up...any ideas guys?? Anyways, I am going to cool from her. These forums are fantastic, just the advice and reassurance I needed! Thank you guys and good luck Marty.

CB

After reading a bit more, I am starting to wonder if by her denying me sex she is trying to domesticate me or shit test me? Any thoughts or more info I can provide regarding the situation?