FR Golddigger date?

[ChrisXKiss]

We match on Tinder. She looks like a model, has a pic of her dancing tango, one singing in a choir, one hiking and a random high heel pic. Her profile states she is looking for a tall tango partner ( she is 179 cm ), or a guy who sings or someone that can improve her life in any other way. She also says she doesn't like chatting and prefers to meet.

My profile on the other hand has a pic of me hiking as well, a pic in some ancient ruins from a trip to north africa, a pic of me dancing, and one playing theatre. I state I am theoretical cosmologist, acting, dancing, with a height of 183cm ( which is exact, my id says 185cm, but is with shoes so don't know if I should change it ).

My first message, because I didn't want her as a dance or singing partner was: " Assuming you will contribute to my life improvement, I’m not opposed to assisting with yours " Then she says: " niiiiceee) i would research further in this direction ". I respond: " Great, let me know how your free time looks for a drink, I also prefer researching in person ". She says: : " wednesday morning for a coffee? ".

At that point I propose 10 am, she says 9:30 works better and tells me it's better for her to be not far from a certain area. I tell her it's even better like that, let's go to a specific place. She asks me which one ( my description was not clear ), I tell her and she responds she doesn't like it and let's do something else. I say: " Lol, if you know something really good, I’m up for suggestions ". She tells me one, I check it and respond: " Ok, it looks cute, we can do that " ," Where around will you be? ". She answers she doesn't get the question, so I say later at night: " Before the coffee, to see where it’s convenient to meet ". She doesn't respond for a day, and the night before the date I text: " Let’s meet up at 9.30 in ( coffee place's name ), whoever goes first grabs a seat ", to which she answers: " okay, see you there ".

The morning of the date my train is a bit late so I am getting late for about 10 minutes. I see a message on tinder telling me: " in case we don't find each other, here is my telegram ". I text her on telegram saying hi and my name and she responds: " Give me 5 min, coming ". I tell her not to worry and I am also late. I arrive first and pick a seat upstairs sending her a message about it. After few minutes I realise I don't have good connection, and the message was never sent. I use the wifi of the place and see two missed calls, my message is send eventually and she says: : " Im inside on the ground floor ", " Well, you could tell you couldn't come before 10, I don't understand this attitude ". I say : " Ok I’m coming down ".

I arrive downstairs and find her seating at a couch with a table in front of her, a second couch seat next to her and another seat opposite to her. I greet her, she tells she would have left if the coffe weren't good and I tell her I was up for a while but no internet so the message didn't come. Then I go to sit next to her. She tells me she prefers me to sit opposite, I then ask why and she answers she doesn't like turning her head around and prefers face to face. I tell her ok, let me try a bit of your coffee. She asks me why and says this is not normal, so I tell her I want to check whether it's better than the one I will take. I go sit opposite to her and then she gives some of the remaining coffee she had.

We start talking and first thing she asks if I had breakfast and I tell her yes I am fine. Then she asks about me, that I am playing guitar and what I am doing. She asks if my theoretical cosmologist is a lie or truth, I say it would be a very far fetched lie. She says if I would be interested in tango, and I say I'd love to, but right now I do too many dances and other stuff that it would be difficult to find time. She asks me what is my dream with what I have done, I tell her I have been studying a particular thing for a while and I now I want to change and explore more, and we'll see how it goes. I ask her about her dreams and she says she has none and she is lazy. I joke about it and say it was the worst choice ever to come here but she doesn't feel moved. Then I tell her there is no way she has no dreams, and she tells me she had once but gave up on them, because they were too difficult.

Then I start telling her how everything is possible, you first have to put the effort and then life will bring you what you want. She says she was into different things like design, but then she tried working and she was putting too much effort for too little rewards, so she is now lazy and wants to do nothing. But I tell her that she has passions singing, dancing, so she is an active person with interests that she could even pursue further. She tells me dancing amateur is different than going to teach and she wants to keep that as a hobby. She asks me my philosophy of life and I tell her first you find what your heart tells, what you are drawn towards and you pursue it, that everyone was telling me not to do what I wanted in school but I still went for it. And I tell her I can see she really believes in herself and is very in touch with her world and what she wants.

She tells me then that I can read her really well, and that she is a narcissist, and asks me if I am too. I tell her yeah, and before I can finish she talks about my acting and asks if I am in any group. I tell her about my group here and our performances and her what else she is into. She tells me she does photoshoots and models, and she enjoys presenting herself and getting approval and validation. I tell her I understand and the feeling of applause is very good. She says she doesn't care about that so much, but more about people writing and telling good things about her. Then I said that this world and acting are maybe a bit different but really not far, and tell her about a model I was talking once than when I asked why she was putting herself out there, she told me she enjoys people admiring her and her body, and the acting is similar to that. I like being in the moment deeply living and exploring the role and then the audience will get what they need to get, and she agreed.

I ask her how she likes connecting with people, and she says she enjoys working together to create and build something. So I tell her she is goal oriented and ambitious and I like that, and I tell her I can see it because although she looks calm in this environment she radiates an internal active energy that is ready to go out there and do stuff. To this she responds it is just because she is hungry, and I just say something along the lines of " yeah sure this can also work", with a slight laugh.

Then I ask her how she likes men, and she tells me she likes men that can teach her something, that are masculine, stronger and better than her. To this I tell her: " Thank you for the compliment "

Moments later she tells me she really has to go. I tell her I also need to be going as I want to visit the bank. She starts packing her things so I ask her if she has to run, and she says yes. She stands up, I stand up too, and she tells me we may meet again some other time, we give a slight kiss on the cheek, I tell her to enjoy and sit down to finish my tea for few minutes before leaving myself.

Now, first of all, I don't believe she wants to see me again. I would like a recommendation though on whether to text her or not, I guess I can, I don't expect much, but I wonder if there is something I could do to salvage anything. She was quite beautiful, face wise and body wise, the kind of girl that is very close to my personal favourite type. And the funny thing is that apart from that I did like her personality. She had a very dismissive attitude of yeah I am a narcissist or I am lazy, I don't like doing stuff, but she clearly is a very good classical singer, a passionate tango dancer and she is modelling , so although she was trying to be like I do nothing, I have no dreams etc, I could feel a woman that believes in herself a lot, knows what she deserves and is living her life. And honestly when I find women that are ambitious, have some passions and are great in a variety of skills I am getting even more infatuated with them. The only issue regarding that is that I don't feel that in any way she would see me as man to have as a lover or boyfriend or whatever, by the way she was with me.

And the thing is I don't know if there is anything I could have done differently. I am pretty sure she just wanted someone to pay for her food by the way she was mentioning it again and again, so just the fact that I held frame and in the end offered to pay only for a small coffee is important for me, as in the past I've been out with women that I ended up paying for, just because they had the vibe of: you are the man and you are lucky to be around me so you will pay. In fact I always had the naive belief that if they are staying around, they are probably also into me a bit sexually and it can be nurtured, I just believed I am good enough to attract them I guess, so paying for something was like sure why not, we are a thing anyway. So it's good I held more frame today, but I don't know what else I could do. In most of the moments that she wasn't complying, with the initial date request, when I sat next to her, when she wasn't telling me stuff about her, I felt that she would very easily sit up and walk away if I firmly held my position, which I could do as a frame win, but I don't see how it would help with the interaction going somewhere eventually. I wanted to try and stick around and see how I can have this go, but maybe it was just a lost cause from the beginning.

That is the main reason I am posting it here as well, to see if there is something that can be done in situations like that to change the whole vibe and move the interaction towards where you want it, or simply some girls will want you for other things and there is nothing you can do about it. And in the end how much you stay in such a scenario and give it a try to turn things around, and in which smooth ways. So any comment or suggestion is welcome.

 

[gameboy]

She didn't give you any compliance, instead got you to sit across from her
She wants you to pay
She admits to being a narcissist

Too may red flags. I'd next her.

What do you want with a narcissist anyway? They're as toxic as you can get.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I see your points, for me the first two are the most important ones. When it comes to the narcissist I can't say for sure, but I had read chase's article about dating a narcissist and it kinda appealed to me, I liked a lot of the pros and didn't mind most of the cons.

I guess they also date some men eventually, and probably they do respect them and submit to them. My concern is that I am just not seen as a man to do these things for. So that is my main question, if there is a particular way to outframe a girl in such an interaction so much that the script is flipped and she starts chasing and deferring to me.

In general I agree it's a waste of time probably, analogous to trying to convince an escort to hook up with you for free. That said I suspect escorts still enjoy good sex and they seek it outside their jobs, so why not be the guy who they go to for the pleasure and not the money.

 

[gameboy]

I'm not sure if we have the same definition of narcissism... As far as I understand, a narcissist always needs to be in control. They never submit. They actually thrive on conflict and enjoy it.

I mean you can give it a try of course... but before you do, maybe do some more reading on narcisissm. If you're still interested afterwards, then give it a go.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I understand what you mean. Even Chase in the article says that it's probably better to go for women with just a hint of narcissism if you go that road. https://www.girlschase.com/content/dating-narcissistic-and-egotistical-women Here it is, by the way, so that we have a common ground on the traits that these kind of women may have.

So it's not so much that I want to date a narcissist, more that I find some of the traits mentioned as attractive. And in this particular scenario, it's not so much about whether she was one or not, but mostly about if there is a lesson to take, maybe regarding how to approach an interaction with these kind of women to maximise the possibility of sex, and then we figure out how her personality is exactly and if I want anything more.

 

[Will_V]

We match on Tinder. She looks like a model, has a pic of her dancing tango, one singing in a choir, one hiking and a random high heel pic. Her profile states she is looking for a tall tango partner ( she is 179 cm ), or a guy who sings or someone that can improve her life in any other way. She also says she doesn't like chatting and prefers to meet.

My profile on the other hand has a pic of me hiking as well, a pic in some ancient ruins from a trip to north africa, a pic of me dancing, and one playing theatre. I state I am theoretical cosmologist, acting, dancing, with a height of 183cm ( which is exact, my id says 185cm, but is with shoes so don't know if I should change it ).

My first message, because I didn't want her as a dance or singing partner was: " Assuming you will contribute to my life improvement, I’m not opposed to assisting with yours " Then she says: " niiiiceee) i would research further in this direction ". I respond: " Great, let me know how your free time looks for a drink, I also prefer researching in person ". She says: : " wednesday morning for a coffee? ".

At that point I propose 10 am, she says 9:30 works better and tells me it's better for her to be not far from a certain area. I tell her it's even better like that, let's go to a specific place. She asks me which one ( my description was not clear ), I tell her and she responds she doesn't like it and let's do something else. I say: " Lol, if you know something really good, I’m up for suggestions ". She tells me one, I check it and respond: " Ok, it looks cute, we can do that " ," Where around will you be? ". She answers she doesn't get the question, so I say later at night: " Before the coffee, to see where it’s convenient to meet ". She doesn't respond for a day, and the night before the date I text: " Let’s meet up at 9.30 in ( coffee place's name ), whoever goes first grabs a seat ", to which she answers: " okay, see you there ".

The morning of the date my train is a bit late so I am getting late for about 10 minutes. I see a message on tinder telling me: " in case we don't find each other, here is my telegram ". I text her on telegram saying hi and my name and she responds: " Give me 5 min, coming ". I tell her not to worry and I am also late. I arrive first and pick a seat upstairs sending her a message about it. After few minutes I realise I don't have good connection, and the message was never sent. I use the wifi of the place and see two missed calls, my message is send eventually and she says: : " Im inside on the ground floor ", " Well, you could tell you couldn't come before 10, I don't understand this attitude ". I say : " Ok I’m coming down ".

I arrive downstairs and find her seating at a couch with a table in front of her, a second couch seat next to her and another seat opposite to her. I greet her, she tells she would have left if the coffe weren't good and I tell her I was up for a while but no internet so the message didn't come. Then I go to sit next to her. She tells me she prefers me to sit opposite, I then ask why and she answers she doesn't like turning her head around and prefers face to face. I tell her ok, let me try a bit of your coffee. She asks me why and says this is not normal, so I tell her I want to check whether it's better than the one I will take. I go sit opposite to her and then she gives some of the remaining coffee she had.

We start talking and first thing she asks if I had breakfast and I tell her yes I am fine. Then she asks about me, that I am playing guitar and what I am doing. She asks if my theoretical cosmologist is a lie or truth, I say it would be a very far fetched lie. She says if I would be interested in tango, and I say I'd love to, but right now I do too many dances and other stuff that it would be difficult to find time. She asks me what is my dream with what I have done, I tell her I have been studying a particular thing for a while and I now I want to change and explore more, and we'll see how it goes. I ask her about her dreams and she says she has none and she is lazy. I joke about it and say it was the worst choice ever to come here but she doesn't feel moved. Then I tell her there is no way she has no dreams, and she tells me she had once but gave up on them, because they were too difficult.

Then I start telling her how everything is possible, you first have to put the effort and then life will bring you what you want. She says she was into different things like design, but then she tried working and she was putting too much effort for too little rewards, so she is now lazy and wants to do nothing. But I tell her that she has passions singing, dancing, so she is an active person with interests that she could even pursue further. She tells me dancing amateur is different than going to teach and she wants to keep that as a hobby. She asks me my philosophy of life and I tell her first you find what your heart tells, what you are drawn towards and you pursue it, that everyone was telling me not to do what I wanted in school but I still went for it. And I tell her I can see she really believes in herself and is very in touch with her world and what she wants.

She tells me then that I can read her really well, and that she is a narcissist, and asks me if I am too. I tell her yeah, and before I can finish she talks about my acting and asks if I am in any group. I tell her about my group here and our performances and her what else she is into. She tells me she does photoshoots and models, and she enjoys presenting herself and getting approval and validation. I tell her I understand and the feeling of applause is very good. She says she doesn't care about that so much, but more about people writing and telling good things about her. Then I said that this world and acting are maybe a bit different but really not far, and tell her about a model I was talking once than when I asked why she was putting herself out there, she told me she enjoys people admiring her and her body, and the acting is similar to that. I like being in the moment deeply living and exploring the role and then the audience will get what they need to get, and she agreed.

I ask her how she likes connecting with people, and she says she enjoys working together to create and build something. So I tell her she is goal oriented and ambitious and I like that, and I tell her I can see it because although she looks calm in this environment she radiates an internal active energy that is ready to go out there and do stuff. To this she responds it is just because she is hungry, and I just say something along the lines of " yeah sure this can also work", with a slight laugh.

Then I ask her how she likes men, and she tells me she likes men that can teach her something, that are masculine, stronger and better than her. To this I tell her: " Thank you for the compliment "

Moments later she tells me she really has to go. I tell her I also need to be going as I want to visit the bank. She starts packing her things so I ask her if she has to run, and she says yes. She stands up, I stand up too, and she tells me we may meet again some other time, we give a slight kiss on the cheek, I tell her to enjoy and sit down to finish my tea for few minutes before leaving myself.

Now, first of all, I don't believe she wants to see me again. I would like a recommendation though on whether to text her or not, I guess I can, I don't expect much, but I wonder if there is something I could do to salvage anything. She was quite beautiful, face wise and body wise, the kind of girl that is very close to my personal favourite type. And the funny thing is that apart from that I did like her personality. She had a very dismissive attitude of yeah I am a narcissist or I am lazy, I don't like doing stuff, but she clearly is a very good classical singer, a passionate tango dancer and she is modelling , so although she was trying to be like I do nothing, I have no dreams etc, I could feel a woman that believes in herself a lot, knows what she deserves and is living her life. And honestly when I find women that are ambitious, have some passions and are great in a variety of skills I am getting even more infatuated with them. The only issue regarding that is that I don't feel that in any way she would see me as man to have as a lover or boyfriend or whatever, by the way she was with me.

And the thing is I don't know if there is anything I could have done differently. I am pretty sure she just wanted someone to pay for her food by the way she was mentioning it again and again, so just the fact that I held frame and in the end offered to pay only for a small coffee is important for me, as in the past I've been out with women that I ended up paying for, just because they had the vibe of: you are the man and you are lucky to be around me so you will pay. In fact I always had the naive belief that if they are staying around, they are probably also into me a bit sexually and it can be nurtured, I just believed I am good enough to attract them I guess, so paying for something was like sure why not, we are a thing anyway. So it's good I held more frame today, but I don't know what else I could do. In most of the moments that she wasn't complying, with the initial date request, when I sat next to her, when she wasn't telling me stuff about her, I felt that she would very easily sit up and walk away if I firmly held my position, which I could do as a frame win, but I don't see how it would help with the interaction going somewhere eventually. I wanted to try and stick around and see how I can have this go, but maybe it was just a lost cause from the beginning.

That is the main reason I am posting it here as well, to see if there is something that can be done in situations like that to change the whole vibe and move the interaction towards where you want it, or simply some girls will want you for other things and there is nothing you can do about it. And in the end how much you stay in such a scenario and give it a try to turn things around, and in which smooth ways. So any comment or suggestion is welcome.

Sounds like a pretty standoffish girl who maybe just wanted some attention/breakfast from a guy on tinder, but there were a few things I think you could have tried differently.

The first thing is that the texting exchange you had on tinder is very interview-esque. I know it's a bit tongue in cheek but it still comes off as if you are both getting ready for a negotiation, which isn't a good frame for a date. I would have bantered a bit more and used some humor to see how she responds, if she doesn't engage with it or quickly gets impatient, it's a good sign her head is not in the right place.

Next, you shouldn't have let her choose the venue, or if you did, you need to set more of an authoritative tone to balance it out. The way you responded with "lol, i'm up for suggestions" comes across as if you didn't know any other options ready and you're just handing over the wheel. Even something along the lines of "ok give me a suggestion and we'll see if it works" clearly frames you as making the decision while she's just making a suggestion.
Already here her refusal of your first suggestion is a clear sign that she's not in your frame yet and possibly trying to dominate the interaction, which tells you you'll have to be ready to hold down the frame hard later on.

At the date, she clearly gave you an attitude about you being late, and I'm not sure asking for some of her coffee here was a good idea. It might work well to disarm her if you do it in a really playful way as if you are messing with her and you overall have a super strong frame - like imagine someone like Russell Brand doing it - but if you don't nail that vibe it's probably just going to further weaken your frame. She already chose the venue, she's giving you sips of her coffee, and she's got a bad attitude, doesn't make you look very dominant at all.

During the date, you did well in leading the conversation toward passionate and personal topics, but I feel like you missed opportunities to get her to open up to you. To crack a tough nut like her you'll have to find the things that really influence her emotionally, that define her identity, and bring those out of her. I think perhaps the two main ones here were tango (because she asked you unprompted if you are into it, which is a sign it's not just a passing hobby for her) and also where she says she had dreams but gave up on them. In the first case you responded logically about how you don't have time for any more dances (not a good frame if tango is something she's super passionate about). And in the second case it seems like you immediately launched into a story about how everything is possible - when you don't know what her dreams were, why/how they died, or any other important information that her sharing would have made her feel more connected to you. This might have made your response seem superficial.

The lesson here is that when you sense that a girl is talking about something very emotionally invested about, whether it's her passions, critical life events, etc, that's where you need to start pulling on the thread and getting her talking to you about it, using questions and simple prompting statements. Until you know in detail the 'what' and the 'why' of its meaning to her, you can't respond in a way that shows you properly understand. Deep diving is 95% listening.

You also did a couple of cold reads that seemed to actually work against you. Cold reads imo are something that you have to be careful using, if it doesn't come off well it can make her feel like you don't get her, and that you are trying to force a frame onto the conversation as if you have an agenda. Especially if cold reads come combined with compliments, unless those compliments really land well and come as a reward for investment on her part, it can make her feel like you're showering her with unearned rewards and makes you seem way too attainable. If you had done it after finding out more details about her, it might have worked better. But it's clear that something really did not land well at all when she suggested that what you saw in her was probably just a result of her being hungry.

The way she spoke about wanting a man who's better than her and can teach her stuff, makes it clear that she's not wanting a man to sit there and tell her how capable and ambitious she is. She wants a man who is going to make her prove herself every step of the way, put her under a bit of pressure, dominate her and lead her, and bring out her capabilities that way.

For example when she said she was a narcissist and lazy, she was probably 'putting out her butt to get spanked' i.e. hoping for a bit of pushback. When you simply said you were too, it sounds if anything like you're trying to prove yourself to her.

Overall I think the main thing here is that you never showed her an edge or put her under pressure. If she's a model she's probably used to guys bending over backward and buttering her up to get into her pussy, and what she really wants is a dude who considers himself better than her, isn't going to put up with any nonsense and will tell her when there's something he doesn't like, and is going to put her in her place if she's being a brat.

If you'd done more of that, and also gotten her talking more about things that meant a lot to her, things may have turned out differently.

She was definitely a hard case though!

 

[Conquistador]

I state I am theoretical cosmologist

Are you actually?
If so, are you aware how stating that in ypur profile impacts the frame?

 

[ChrisXKiss]

The first thing is that the texting exchange you had on tinder is very interview-esque. I know it's a bit tongue in cheek but it still comes off as if you are both getting ready for a negotiation, which isn't a good frame for a date. I would have bantered a bit more and used some humor to see how she responds, if she doesn't engage with it or quickly gets impatient, it's a good sign her head is not in the right place.

Yeah I agree, in general I only go that route if a girl seems to be ready for making plans right away. Then my idea is: get her out, and you build the rest of the frames on the date. It's true that I could have found out how she sees it earlier, but I preferred to plan fast, get the date and see it as an experience on how to handle this kind of situation and deal with a hard case.

Next, you shouldn't have let her choose the venue, or if you did, you need to set more of an authoritative tone to balance it out. The way you responded with "lol, i'm up for suggestions" comes across as if you didn't know any other options ready and you're just handing over the wheel. Even something along the lines of "ok give me a suggestion and we'll see if it works" clearly frames you as making the decision while she's just making a suggestion.
Already here her refusal of your first suggestion is a clear sign that she's not in your frame yet and possibly trying to dominate the interaction, which tells you you'll have to be ready to hold down the frame hard later on.

I do agree, the thing is that most of the times when they are pretty firm and I push for a specific venue or meeting location via texting it doesn't end well, I think it's also more difficult to persist effectively in this medium as she doesn't see your energy and how you say it. My idea here is just go and treat it as an informational date. I really like the "ok give me a suggestion and we'll see if it works", I was going for something like that but with a more laid back vibe of sure whatever, if you have something good we can make it work ( implying that she should find something good if she wants me to be satisfied and come ). And yeah I did know she wanted to dominate the interaction and was ready for that, I wanted to see how I can deal with it, in a way that is not me deferring to her but also not being reactive and pushing her away.

At the date, she clearly gave you an attitude about you being late, and I'm not sure asking for some of her coffee here was a good idea. It might work well to disarm her if you do it in a really playful way as if you are messing with her and you overall have a super strong frame - like imagine someone like Russell Brand doing it - but if you don't nail that vibe it's probably just going to further weaken your frame. She already chose the venue, she's giving you sips of her coffee, and she's got a bad attitude, doesn't make you look very dominant at all.

Yeah I kinda treated the attitude as something normal since there was a miscommunication and she waited. I brushed it off pretty nonchalantly though I think, wasn't worried about it or seemed like I inconvenienced her.

Not sure exactly how the coffee thing came off, probably wasn't Russell Brand level, but I didn't feel that this weakened the frame a lot. My idea about it general was that she asked me to sit opposite to her, so I am gonna ask for something in return. There was an article Chase wrote about when women try to lead be the prize, and it was saying that if for example she asks for a drink you tell her I only buy drinks with for girls I've made out with or something similar. Basically when she wants you to do something for her you make her work for it a bit. And I thought sharing some of her coffee made sense for the environment.

During the date, you did well in leading the conversation toward passionate and personal topics, but I feel like you missed opportunities to get her to open up to you. To crack a tough nut like her you'll have to find the things that really influence her emotionally, that define her identity, and bring those out of her. I think perhaps the two main ones here were tango (because she asked you unprompted if you are into it, which is a sign it's not just a passing hobby for her) and also where she says she had dreams but gave up on them. In the first case you responded logically about how you don't have time for any more dances (not a good frame if tango is something she's super passionate about). And in the second case it seems like you immediately launched into a story about how everything is possible - when you don't know what her dreams were, why/how they died, or any other important information that her sharing would have made her feel more connected to you. This might have made your response seem superficial.

That is true, I did try to open her up and got some, but didn't get that much.

For tango, because she was saying in the profile she wanted a dance partner, I simply didn't want it to look like I am there as a platonic dance partner, so I wanted to show her I am busy man and tango is nice, but wouldn't be a priority for me now. Don't know if it would help getting more into tango and proposing to do it together, I guess it could have gotten me a tango partner, but probably not much more. I did talk to her a bit later about how she sees it and why she enjoys it though.

I did ask about her dreams in fact, don't remember the exact conversation but she wasn't opening up a lot. She told me she tried this and that, but was a struggle and she was putting too much effort for too few

results. Then I guess the reason I told her the general stuff is because I honestly don't know how I could inspire her in her field. I mean I can be supportive, but I would need details about what she has tried exactly, where she has worked, how the experience was, to start and understand her more deeply. I think I felt for a short coffee date this was too much to get into, and dig that deep, but I was probably wrong. Maybe I should have pressed her to reveal more as she was a tough case anyway.

The lesson here is that when you sense that a girl is talking about something very emotionally invested about, whether it's her passions, critical life events, etc, that's where you need to start pulling on the thread and getting her talking to you about it, using questions and simple prompting statements. Until you know in detail the 'what' and the 'why' of its meaning to her, you can't respond in a way that shows you properly understand. Deep diving is 95% listening.

Yeah that's a great point, sometimes I get carried away and I think I have to show my understanding fast to look like I get her effortlessly and build the connection, and if I keep probing deeper and deeper it will feel like I am pressing her for too much too soon. Sometimes it's also a matter of me thinking that if we spend too much time in this deep diving process there will be no time left to either sexualise the conversation or move somewhere else or escalate in general. I suppose I should trust that by being present, interested and deep diving the interaction is moving forward anyway, and there is no need to speed things up that much, but I should just stay there insisting on opening her up more.

You also did a couple of cold reads that seemed to actually work against you. Cold reads imo are something that you have to be careful using, if it doesn't come off well it can make her feel like you don't get her, and that you are trying to force a frame onto the conversation as if you have an agenda. Especially if cold reads come combined with compliments, unless those compliments really land well and come as a reward for investment on her part, it can make her feel like you're showering her with unearned rewards and makes you seem way too attainable. If you had done it after finding out more details about her, it might have worked better. But it's clear that something really did not land well at all when she suggested that what you saw in her was probably just a result of her being hungry.

Yes I do get that sometimes with cold reads, especially in street approaches where they are either spot on and the girl looks amazed how fast I get her or they are totally off and the girl feels I am just clueless not getting her at all. There I use them because I wanting something to make an impression fast, but during dates I agree they should come more out of the deep diving. I'm trying to give compliments on things I like, for example if she says she likes something like travelling I may say stuff like: " Yeah, I can see it... you give off a very active adventurous energy, there is something about the way you hold yourself... it has an internal fire... I like it, it means you are really passionate about life. " Maybe I shouldn't say something like this so fast, before learning more, it's just that sometimes I do feel it.

For example when she said she was a narcissist I immediately said: " Oh yeah, I was sure about it" laughing a bit, because it really made sense with how she was behaving. And if I then say that this is good because you value yourself and know your worth, I still mean it, but I can see why it can look like kissing up to her, if there hasn't been a deeper connection built.

The way she spoke about wanting a man who's better than her and can teach her stuff, makes it clear that she's not wanting a man to sit there and tell her how capable and ambitious she is. She wants a man who is going to make her prove herself every step of the way, put her under a bit of pressure, dominate her and lead her, and bring out her capabilities that way.

Yeah this is a great point in fact. My whole vibe during the date was being chill, laid back on my chair while she was even leaning forward sometimes to hear me, sipping from my cup slowly even when she was asking something and not answering back until I was finished. I kinda had an energy: you look interesting but let's see, I am not affected by you and don't care that much anyway.

I do agree though that with such a woman, I should show more care about the way she was treating the whole interaction, pressing her more to go deeper and holding her accountable of what she said. Maybe being more firm and calling out her bullshit blatantly. Taking more charge and having her show me she can stand up to my standards.

Until now, with a woman in such interactions I was accepting towards her, trying to build understanding and similarity through our interaction, showing I appreciated her for who she was, and I kinda expected the attraction to be there, so by simply coming to a common ground things would move forward. But I never pushed or grilled or pressed her to prove herself to me in any way, or took a strong lead regarding what she could do with her life.

And this is important, because I believe it is an issue of mine generally in seduction, that is simply way more visible with women like this one. I mean I generally feel in most interactions I can appreciate a woman for who she is, I can like her as a person and sexually and move towards intimacy, but I rarely have this vibe of truly caring about taking responsibility for her life and leading her to something greater. I guess for me the something greater I offer is the sexual part and the understanding of her, but leaving all her pursuits, goals and efforts in life totally in her hands, as something she is figuring out by herself, and I am only here to appreciate and encourage.

I would bet this is the reason I have never been in a relationship as well, the fact that I don't give off the energy of someone that will be there for you as a partner and will support and aid your general life growth. And of course I am not that sexy, at least yet, that I can be getting around and simply offering a great sexual experience to high value women and have them eat it up.

And I guess the even deeper issue is that I feel I don't know how I can really lead a woman to a greater life and bring out her capabilities. For example, let's say this woman from the field report wanted to become a successful fashion designer, but saw all the doors closed and had no money for greater education. I am really not sure how I could support and lead her towards that dream apart from the obvious paying for her to get a degree. I guess the only thing I could do is keep her accountable to working hard, networking, and continuously learning. But aren't these things she can do by herself?

Anyway, I believe I have to find out and really make clear in my mind what I offer to a girl being with me apart from sex and appreciation of her nature, and what I also expect from her apart from these things. Because until now I think I've never expected much more, since I never got into a more long term thing having her being around me a lot and affecting my life.

For example when she said she was a narcissist and lazy, she was probably 'putting out her butt to get spanked' i.e. hoping for a bit of pushback. When you simply said you were too, it sounds if anything like you're trying to prove yourself to her.

Yeah, here I simply thought it would be nice to build some similarity, because most people are probably put off by this trait of hers, and I wanted her to see I understand and appreciate it. I understand what you say though, I guess these kind of girls need a stern hand and to be put in their place a bit when they say stuff like that.

Overall I think the main thing here is that you never showed her an edge or put her under pressure. If she's a model she's probably used to guys bending over backward and buttering her up to get into her pussy, and what she really wants is a dude who considers himself better than her, isn't going to put up with any nonsense and will tell her when there's something he doesn't like, and is going to put her in her place if she's being a brat.

If you'd done more of that, and also gotten her talking more about things that meant a lot to her, things may have turned out differently.

I agree now looking back. I kinda had the idea that exactly because she is a model and stuck up, most guys are probably butthurt around her, autorejecting, treating her bad and like she is a bitch, so I believed that showing I understand where she comes from, appreciating her for who she was, and treating her like we are equals and not like she is something exceptional would be enough.

But I neither managed to really have her open up and connect deeply, nor to read what she wanted, call out her nonsense and put her in her place.

She was definitely a hard case though!

Yeah, an interesting learning experience at least!

 

[ChrisXKiss]

Are you actually?
If so, are you aware how stating that in ypur profile impacts the frame?

I have a graduate degree in it, in the process of changing careers, but universe is the thing I probably know better than most people. So theoretical cosmologist is kinda the closest to an identity I would give to myself if I had too.

My idea about the frame was that it is something that looks high value, but also doesn't really have much money connected to it so it cannot give a provider frame really. I guess it makes me look intellectual, but maybe unattainable for many women which is a bad thing. It's not that I've had a lot of success with it or without it though, so any suggestions regarding the profile are welcome.

My online dating results are pretty awful anyway, Maybe one legit match ( non trans, non fake, non living in the other side of the world ) per week, in all dating apps together ( hinge, tinder, bumble, feeld, badoo, happn etc ) and rarely an eventual meet up. Even the ones that do respond eventually usually don't contribute much and go silent after 2-3 texts. I've had lays by it, but I don't depend on them at all, since just finding a date from there is very rare for me.

 

[Atlas IV]

My online dating results are pretty awful anyway, Maybe one legit match ( non trans, non fake, non living in the other side of the world ) per week, in all dating apps together ( hinge, tinder, bumble, feeld, badoo, happn etc ) and rarely an eventual meet up. Even the ones that do respond eventually usually don't contribute much and go silent after 2-3 texts. I've had lays by it, but I don't depend on them at all, since just finding a date from there is very rare for me.

Have you tried cold approach? Sounds like online dating is not really a good use of your time.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

Have you tried cold approach? Sounds like online dating is not really a good use of your time.

Yeah have been doing quite a lot of it Apart from field reports I also have stuff in my journal. I prefer the freedom of cold approach anyway. Now result wise, I surely can improve as well there.

 

[Will_V]

Yeah I agree, in general I only go that route if a girl seems to be ready for making plans right away. Then my idea is: get her out, and you build the rest of the frames on the date. It's true that I could have found out how she sees it earlier, but I preferred to plan fast, get the date and see it as an experience on how to handle this kind of situation and deal with a hard case.

First impressions matter a lot, and on a medium like tinder or text it's very easy for her to get the wrong idea and bring a perception about you to the date that isn't helpful. With cold approach it's much harder for that to happen because she saw you and interacted with you first.

Beside that it was great that you moved things quickly to the date.

Not sure exactly how the coffee thing came off, probably wasn't Russell Brand level, but I didn't feel that this weakened the frame a lot. My idea about it general was that she asked me to sit opposite to her, so I am gonna ask for something in return. There was an article Chase wrote about when women try to lead be the prize, and it was saying that if for example she asks for a drink you tell her I only buy drinks with for girls I've made out with or something similar. Basically when she wants you to do something for her you make her work for it a bit. And I thought sharing some of her coffee made sense for the environment.

Yeah it's something most guys wouldn't do and shakes up her idea of where she stands with you. The question is whether it fitted congruently into your overall approach.

That is true, I did try to open her up and got some, but didn't get that much.

For tango, because she was saying in the profile she wanted a dance partner, I simply didn't want it to look like I am there as a platonic dance partner, so I wanted to show her I am busy man and tango is nice, but wouldn't be a priority for me now. Don't know if it would help getting more into tango and proposing to do it together, I guess it could have gotten me a tango partner, but probably not much more. I did talk to her a bit later about how she sees it and why she enjoys it though.

I did ask about her dreams in fact, don't remember the exact conversation but she wasn't opening up a lot. She told me she tried this and that, but was a struggle and she was putting too much effort for too few

results. Then I guess the reason I told her the general stuff is because I honestly don't know how I could inspire her in her field. I mean I can be supportive, but I would need details about what she has tried exactly, where she has worked, how the experience was, to start and understand her more deeply. I think I felt for a short coffee date this was too much to get into, and dig that deep, but I was probably wrong. Maybe I should have pressed her to reveal more as she was a tough case anyway.

It's not so much that you need to be supportive, you just have to provide a space for her to talk about the emotional aspects of it, and then use that to advance the seduction. For example:

Her: "I tried XYZ but I didn't get the results I was hoping for".
You: "What were you hoping for?"
Her: "I don't know, maybe ABC".
You: "Do you feel like you put everything into it?"
Her: "Yeah .. I mean maybe I could have done [something else]"
You: "There's always something else to try .. but in the end you feel satisfied with something not just because of results but because of what it means to you to try".
Her "yeah! I did try pretty hard I guess".
You: [Moves closer] What else have you tried?
Her: "...!"

This conversation doesn't really make that much sense, but you can feel the direction it's going - you focus on her trying hard to get something, validating that part of her (after putting a little bit of pressure on her), and using it to springboard to talking about something else she really wants to try that's more exciting (along with some vague sexual undertones..)

Yeah that's a great point, sometimes I get carried away and I think I have to show my understanding fast to look like I get her effortlessly and build the connection, and if I keep probing deeper and deeper it will feel like I am pressing her for too much too soon. Sometimes it's also a matter of me thinking that if we spend too much time in this deep diving process there will be no time left to either sexualise the conversation or move somewhere else or escalate in general. I suppose I should trust that by being present, interested and deep diving the interaction is moving forward anyway, and there is no need to speed things up that much, but I should just stay there insisting on opening her up more.

That's very true, deep diving isn't about what you say, it's about how she feels as she is talking to you.

Yes I do get that sometimes with cold reads, especially in street approaches where they are either spot on and the girl looks amazed how fast I get her or they are totally off and the girl feels I am just clueless not getting her at all. There I use them because I wanting something to make an impression fast, but during dates I agree they should come more out of the deep diving. I'm trying to give compliments on things I like, for example if she says she likes something like travelling I may say stuff like: " Yeah, I can see it... you give off a very active adventurous energy, there is something about the way you hold yourself... it has an internal fire... I like it, it means you are really passionate about life. " Maybe I shouldn't say something like this so fast, before learning more, it's just that sometimes I do feel it.

I would suggest using something like:

Her: Statement
You: Question (preferably with pressure)
Her: Response to Question
You: Cold (warm?) read

i.e.

Her: "I like travelling"
You: "Do you really like travelling and immersing yourself in a culture or do you just want to land, take a picture, and say 'I've done X country'?"
Her: "I really like to immerse! One time I did blah blah blah"
You: "Yeah I can see that you're actually an adventurous girl, you have like this internal fire blah blah"

There is a concept I first learned from James Marshall called 'pressure and release' the idea is that you put her on the spot and show skepticism (pressure), then she justifies herself or invests into the conversation, then you validate her (release). This makes everything a little roller coaster with a pleasurable ending, and makes her feel like she just earned your approval, thereby making her value it all the more.

For example when she said she was a narcissist I immediately said: " Oh yeah, I was sure about it" laughing a bit, because it really made sense with how she was behaving. And if I then say that this is good because you value yourself and know your worth, I still mean it, but I can see why it can look like kissing up to her, if there hasn't been a deeper connection built.

That was another pressure and release moment.

Her "I'm a narcissist"
You: "haha I bet you don't even know what a narcissist is"
Her: "I do! It's XYZ"
<Already you're playing with her since now she's a narcissist who's trying to justify that she is one, lol>
You: "Yeah I think I see a bit of my own spirit in you, maybe we're alike that way". Or whatever.

And you can adjust the level of pressure and release based on whether her attitude is standoffish or compliant.

Yeah this is a great point in fact. My whole vibe during the date was being chill, laid back on my chair while she was even leaning forward sometimes to hear me, sipping from my cup slowly even when she was asking something and not answering back until I was finished. I kinda had an energy: you look interesting but let's see, I am not affected by you and don't care that much anyway.

Good.

I do agree though that with such a woman, I should show more care about the way she was treating the whole interaction, pressing her more to go deeper and holding her accountable of what she said. Maybe being more firm and calling out her bullshit blatantly. Taking more charge and having her show me she can stand up to my standards.

Yeah she's clearly wanting to play a game, so make her play yours.

Until now, with a woman in such interactions I was accepting towards her, trying to build understanding and similarity through our interaction, showing I appreciated her for who she was, and I kinda expected the attraction to be there, so by simply coming to a common ground things would move forward. But I never pushed or grilled or pressed her to prove herself to me in any way, or took a strong lead regarding what she could do with her life.

Spot on.

And this is important, because I believe it is an issue of mine generally in seduction, that is simply way more visible with women like this one. I mean I generally feel in most interactions I can appreciate a woman for who she is, I can like her as a person and sexually and move towards intimacy, but I rarely have this vibe of truly caring about taking responsibility for her life and leading her to something greater. I guess for me the something greater I offer is the sexual part and the understanding of her, but leaving all her pursuits, goals and efforts in life totally in her hands, as something she is figuring out by herself, and I am only here to appreciate and encourage.

You don't need to come across as an alpha provider to lead her and make her prove herself to you. You only have to show her an adventure she can have with you - if she's equal to it.

I would bet this is the reason I have never been in a relationship as well, the fact that I don't give off the energy of someone that will be there for you as a partner and will support and aid your general life growth. And of course I am not that sexy, at least yet, that I can be getting around and simply offering a great sexual experience to high value women and have them eat it up.

In the seduction, before sex is on the table, adventure is its analogy. That's why I always steer the conversation toward adventurous, exciting, rebellious things, because that is what the sex will represent later on.

And I guess the even deeper issue is that I feel I don't know how I can really lead a woman to a greater life and bring out her capabilities. For example, let's say this woman from the field report wanted to become a successful fashion designer, but saw all the doors closed and had no money for greater education. I am really not sure how I could support and lead her towards that dream apart from the obvious paying for her to get a degree. I guess the only thing I could do is keep her accountable to working hard, networking, and continuously learning. But aren't these things she can do by herself?

You don't need to sit there and try to practically improve her life. All you need to do is prompt her to talk about herself, put her on the spot, then validate her, etc and steer toward adventure/sex.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

It's not so much that you need to be supportive, you just have to provide a space for her to talk about the emotional aspects of it, and then use that to advance the seduction. For example:

Her: "I tried XYZ but I didn't get the results I was hoping for".
You: "What were you hoping for?"
Her: "I don't know, maybe ABC".
You: "Do you feel like you put everything into it?"
Her: "Yeah .. I mean maybe I could have done [something else]"
You: "There's always something else to try .. but in the end you feel satisfied with something not just because of results but because of what it means to you to try".
Her "yeah! I did try pretty hard I guess".
You: [Moves closer] What else have you tried?
Her: "...!"

This conversation doesn't really make that much sense, but you can feel the direction it's going - you focus on her trying hard to get something, validating that part of her (after putting a little bit of pressure on her), and using it to springboard to talking about something else she really wants to try that's more exciting (along with some vague sexual undertones..)

Yeah this is beautifully presented. I think out of all this what stands out the most to me is the moving closer part. That's something I probably don't do enough of in general, I mean rewarding women with sensuality when they comply.

I would suggest using something like:

Her: Statement
You: Question (preferably with pressure)
Her: Response to Question
You: Cold (warm?) read

i.e.

Her: "I like travelling"
You: "Do you really like travelling and immersing yourself in a culture or do you just want to land, take a picture, and say 'I've done X country'?"
Her: "I really like to immerse! One time I did blah blah blah"
You: "Yeah I can see that you're actually an adventurous girl, you have like this internal fire blah blah"

There is a concept I first learned from James Marshall called 'pressure and release' the idea is that you put her on the spot and show skepticism (pressure), then she justifies herself or invests into the conversation, then you validate her (release). This makes everything a little roller coaster with a pleasurable ending, and makes her feel like she just earned your approval, thereby making her value it all the more.

Yeah this is interesting and it makes sense to me, I can see the effectiveness. I've been following James Marshall myself as well, have a product of his and in fact I was at a free tour event with two of his coaches last week. I enjoy how relaxed his approaches are. For a while I was finding it strange, after looking infields of other people in the industry, but the more I approach myself, the more I appreciate his style, and even naturally move my approaches towards that.

That was another pressure and release moment.

Her "I'm a narcissist"
You: "haha I bet you don't even know what a narcissist is"
Her: "I do! It's XYZ"
<Already you're playing with her since now she's a narcissist who's trying to justify that she is one, lol>
You: "Yeah I think I see a bit of my own spirit in you, maybe we're alike that way". Or whatever.

And you can adjust the level of pressure and release based on whether her attitude is standoffish or compliant.

Love the example and the comment in the end!

You don't need to come across as an alpha provider to lead her and make her prove herself to you. You only have to show her an adventure she can have with you - if she's equal to it.

Maybe I am not sure myself what kind of adventure I can steer her towards, but I suppose no matter what you can teach her or communicate to her about the world, it can be an adventure, and there always things you can offer in that realm.

You don't need to sit there and try to practically improve her life. All you need to do is prompt her to talk about herself, put her on the spot, then validate her, etc and steer toward adventure/sex.

I see what you mean. It's basically building the atmosphere that will lead her to accept the sexual energy.

 

[Will_V]

Yeah this is beautifully presented. I think out of all this what stands out the most to me is the moving closer part. That's something I probably don't do enough of in general, I mean rewarding women with sensuality when they comply.

A big part of my game is communicating to a woman "look how you're making me feel" and responding to things she does with my own pleasure and interest, as if she's seducing me. It sort of sets the example and invites her to do the same.

Women are naturally very good at taking their cue from something rather than being told, since her natural disposition is to imagine experiencing something that she sees or thinks about, rather than considering it logically.

Yeah this is interesting and it makes sense to me, I can see the effectiveness. I've been following James Marshall myself as well, have a product of his and in fact I was at a free tour event with two of his coaches last week. I enjoy how relaxed his approaches are. For a while I was finding it strange, after looking infields of other people in the industry, but the more I approach myself, the more I appreciate his style, and even naturally move my approaches towards that.

Yeah I think these kind of relaxed, natural-looking approaches are underrated, but I guess they don't make as exciting viewing on youtube.

Love the example and the comment in the end!


Maybe I am not sure myself what kind of adventure I can steer her towards, but I suppose no matter what you can teach her or communicate to her about the world, it can be an adventure, and there always things you can offer in that realm.

The best adventure is the adventure you can create out of the smallest things.

Going for a walk, eating out somewhere, having sex, having a deep, intimate conversation - these are all little adventures, it's just that most dudes don't see things that way. The most seductive thing in the world is nothing more than a joie de vivre that makes small things feel meaningful. A little bit of spontaneity, and building a bubble that feels like it only contains you and her, while you just enjoy the basic things of life, makes for a much more satisfying adventure than planning some big trip or roleplay or whatever (that is usually much more boring and tedious than it sounds).

I see what you mean. It's basically building the atmosphere that will lead her to accept the sexual energy.

It's the age old concept that a woman doesn't need a man to fix her problems, she just needs a kiss and a cuddle. Well, you can replace a kiss and a cuddle with great conversation and a few rounds between the sheets. It's the same concept.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

A big part of my game is communicating to a woman "look how you're making me feel" and responding to things she does with my own pleasure and interest, as if she's seducing me. It sort of sets the example and invites her to do the same.

Women are naturally very good at taking their cue from something rather than being told, since her natural disposition is to imagine experiencing something that she sees or thinks about, rather than considering it logically.

I love this, will have to integrate it in my interactions for sure. Basically let myself more free to express my appreciation of how she makes me feel, without being afraid of how she would take it. I think I have been very careful to not show too much interest until now, that many times I don't show enough.

Going for a walk, eating out somewhere, having sex, having a deep, intimate conversation - these are all little adventures, it's just that most dudes don't see things that way. The most seductive thing in the world is nothing more than a joie de vivre that makes small things feel meaningful. A little bit of spontaneity, and building a bubble that feels like it only contains you and her, while you just enjoy the basic things of life, makes for a much more satisfying adventure than planning some big trip or roleplay or whatever (that is usually much more boring and tedious than it sounds).

Totally agree

It's the age old concept that a woman doesn't need a man to fix her problems, she just needs a kiss and a cuddle. Well, you can replace a kiss and a cuddle with great conversation and a few rounds between the sheets. It's the same concept.

And with this one too. I feel the one thing going forward from these points is managing to connect effectively with a woman so that she would enjoy joining you in these kinds of experiences.