Having Difficulty with Emotions and Expectations

[Hue]

Sup guys.

So I'll be straight honest - my relationship experience is not much to look at. I've had two girlfriends and cheated on one of them. She stayed with me anyways, and then I broke up with her for college and broke her heart. After that, I fell in love with her and chased her for a few years. I still gush for her every time I see her, but I'm happy for her and her new relationship.. but that's beside the point.


Frankly, I'm not experienced in this department when dealing with my own issues for things that go beyond fuck buddies.

Koala and I have been fucking here and there since September. She's a serial monogamist and I broke that spell on her, and now we have an open relationship without calling it one. We fucked the first night we met each other.

We scheduled a netflix date for tonight. Here are the texts,

Yesterday

blah blah logistics
Me: mmk. I'll see ya at 7:30, my place sound good?
Her: Sounds good to me *all good emoji*


Today
Her: Hi! FYI I'm doing dry January (perfect)
Her: As in alcohol not the other dry ;P
Me: heyyy same here lol
Me: good ;-* you deserve to be nice and wet
Me: I'm not drinking till my bday though so it's not a fullll Jan for me
Her: Haha awesome

7:00 PM
Her: Soo I'm still at work *distressed emoji* it's been crazy today
Her: Are you free this weekend?
Me: when will you be at work till?
Her: Probably won't be home until 8. And I'm so tired *shame emoji* I'm sorryyyy

7:46 PM
Me: 8:30 it is then, we'll let you unwind from the long day, and relax with that netflix thing

*she calls me*
Over the phone she tries to play me down from hanging out because she's tired but I convince her that I'll just run an errand near her house, and then I'll head over to her place. She said she's too tired to fuck and I tell her we can just hang out. She laughs and says okay, but she's worried because she knows how persistent I can be, like right now. I promise my "best behavior" and tell her I'll see her at 8:30.

I pull up to her house and try to kiss her at the door. She says "woah haha already?" and I kinda laugh it off. We sit on the couch and catch up and talk. I noticed that I was doing more talking than usual, for whatever reason, and make sure to get more focus on her. We turn on the netflix show (that interactive black mirror shit) and I tell her to lay down with me. At first she's a bit odd about it but then she complies.

We watch most of the show with us lying down and me feeling her up here and there. I can't get over her ass and I'm horny as fuck. Eventually I slip my hands into her leggings and I'm feeling up her bare ass. Multiple times during this she takes my hand away from her goodies and puts it somewhere where I can't touch her as much. It's like she had me in an ever state of LMR, even though we've fucked multiple times, she orgasms everytime, and we've been talking for months. She said she wouldn't do that because it would lead to sex.

When she would make a hard resistance against it I would tell her that "my dick isn't even out" and kinda joke it off. But eventually it got to me, because she wasn't letting me kiss her. This is a girl I've been seeing, so why the hell is she acting like this?


Eventually, I crack, and I ask her what's up. Hindsight, I regret this. But - it was bothering me enough and I couldn't come up with anything. A lot of things were said that will likely have negative repercussions in my frame / change the expectations of the relationship - and now I have a lot on my mind because every time I see her I like her more.

I ask her why she won't even let me kiss her, and provide possible explanations, like "is it because you don't think you wanted to fuck me the first time? / we moved too fast?" and she says no she knew what she was doing. We talk about it for a little bit and she says that I'm getting pissed. I was getting mostly confused and thereafter annoyed with my confusion. I made it clear that I'm not mad at her, but I'm confused about why she's acting like this and I'm disappointed she won't let me show affection to her.

She tries to dodge it with "I don't even know what we're arguing about" and asks me if I respect her. I ask her if she respects me and she says she does. I say that "I feel like neither of us believe each other". I tell her that I have standards in relationships when it comes to showing affection and being able to do that when I want to, and that includes anything from kissing to sex. She flat out tells me, "well go get it from someone else then", which really surprised me.

She asked me if I've ever had a girlfriend who you just hang out with and don't do anything with, and I said not really. She framed it like "well, you have some learning to do". I responded "but we're not seeing each other all the time, this is different", since we only see eachother every 3 weeks to a month or so.

I make it super clear that this is both me being horny and me liking her as a person and wanting to be able to show affection for her. I want to cuddle with her, like we'd been doing, but I want to kiss her and be passionate in showing affection for her. I try to appeal to her emotions more as I tell her this.

The "argument" ends with me saying "Koala, I just want you to understand that I think you're a super cool girl and I like hanging out with you" with a warm smile. She responds with, "...but...?" and I laugh and say, "no haha that's it. full stop" and she says she expected I thought I'd say more. The vibe comes back and we go back to watching a black mirror episode about relationships (very romantic episode, fittingly).

After this she lays on top of me in my favorite cuddling position that we hadn't done all night. I build sexual tension with her here and our faces are very close. The episode ends and we start sitting next to eachother with super laser eye contact and she eventually says "you can't not kiss me" and I kiss her passionately. At this point I honestly think I should have gone all out and tried to fuck her. Instead, I pulled off a bit because it was getting late and I had to leave, plus she had to be up early and she always pulls this card of LMR with me since "she's an adult an I'm a college grad", a frame she persistently puts on me (she's 27 I'm 22). And, she would always kinda jump off or move away from me when I tried going for too long.

We bounce around the house and she's being way more playful and touchy and fun all of a sudden, but not in a way that makes me think she would fuck. Like it was us just being affectionate, as I'd described. I'm not used to this with any girl at this point in my life. If we're in private, we're fucking. But this didn't happen so I have a lot of confused emotions right now.


So in digging into this myself I actually identified that I have the somewhat sexist belief that "women are liars". I mean, they can be, but I think I have a general distrust of women more often than not. I don't take her words at face value, because I think she's testing me all the time. But what if she's not and I'm just making things out of nothing? Well that's kinda fucked, if that's the case, isn't it?

But then I'll see some perspective that makes me think she was testing me, like when I had my hand in her pants feeling her as and she took it out and I asked her why since she liked it and she responds, "I just wanted to see if you would keep it here".

And then after I did kiss her and we were playing around I picked her up by her ass (which is always fun) and put her on her kitchen table and she says "this is a fantasy", but then also says how cold the table is an "thank god I have clothes on". I let her go. I didn't persist here. Did she just want me to fuck her here and for me to persist until the very fucking end after making it as difficult as possible for me? God damn.

But then she'll say something about how I always try to push for sex all the time, like it's a bad thing. But it's a great thing for both of us, so what the fuck? Is this her method of trying to tame me or is it a shit test?

I'm just so confused with all this, I'm lost in my head and it's frustrating. I haven't liked a girl and continued to see her in a really long time, and this type of seeing a girl is all uncrossed territory for me.


My bad if this is chaotic and hard to sift through. This is probably a lot to unpack. Any advice is appreciated on the matter.

 

[Rain]

Hey Hue,

When you were on the couch and getting frustrated that she wouldn't play ball.... do you think you really really like her that much or is it that because she's playing hard to get it just drives your interest way high?

Why is she acting like this? Like you said it could be some sort of test. Not acting cool maybe wasn't the best move but I can sense and sympathise your frustrations. Did she say any reason for why she didn't want to hookup? Or just I'm tired and thats it?

Its confusing because I think well lets say you didn't be persistent over txt and you never saw her that night. Instead, you met her another day. Would this same situation have happened.... or not? I guess thats difficult to answer?
To clarify, are you seeing her once every 3weeks, or are you seeing her once/twice a week for 3weeks of each month?

Easy to say this from the outside but if she won't communicate with you about what's going on, why the change in behaviour, do you really want that? Again, easy to say as I'm not the one risking giving up that great ass

You've seen her for 4x months. Maybe now she's getting in that zone where she wants more than a fwb/open relationship? I may have read on these forums that the maximum is usually 3-6 months a woman can have a noncommitment open relationships / fwb relationship and still be happy. After that, she might get hurt? Maybe other members can chime in or I can find the link. I know Hector in one of his videos talked about one sided monogamy, I don't know if that's for all women or only those that are open to it or if that is a possbility or not with regards to the 3-6 months thing where you can , or can't, keep yourself nonmonogamy but you still commit to her as your main woman and she commits to you fully. And that then fixes that 3-6 months thing? I don't know.

So normally you sleep together and now this time it didn't happen. We may need more details but that's not usually a good sign. If she hasn't told you what it was, eg "im tired" can be legitimate by the way... and then you're persistent and then that would piss her off maybe. In her mind she said she was tired and not tonight, and then she let you come over and then she just wants sleep and then now she's pissed even more because you keep trying. That's if the tiredness or some other legit reason is the case, and not a bigger picture[real reason] that she hasn't told you about.

From here maybe you have 2 options, I'm not sure if these are the best options as I'm not experienced with relationships much either but still here they are:

1. Txt chat normally and then say. "So was wondering, the other night.... were you really super tired or did you have something on your mind that you wanted to talk about?"
Maybe that risks a needy frame, or maybe you'd get your answer IF there is one. It could also risk cementing bad emotions since you got a little pissed maybe not the best option.

2. You could try and hangout again at some point and see if what happened was just a one off, or if happens again.
If you do this, how will you act if you don't hookup again? Be cool, but I think you'd want an answer.

I also have trouble not being paranoid about womens words, I may not be the best person to ask for advice for that. Obviouclsy there's a legit fear there of wrong paternity down the road if she is a liar.
A little off topic. The first woman you mention, you still gush for her if you see her. So if she was single and you were single would you see her again or you have fully moved on?

 

[Mr.Rob]

Hey Hue,

First off I struggle with the same thing in getting overly invested emotionally (perhaps sooner than I should) and I know how in the moment it can be really hard to know the right move if you're not experienced in said situation and can read in between the lines of what she's saying and whats her actual motivation and doing.

Just off the cuff I think you realized that you might've chased a bit more than you should have here. Particularly since its an open relationship. Biggest error I see is conversing about it logically or discussing it in general.

Probably best go to would've been what Chase outlines here:

If you're doing everything else right with regard to sex (e.g., the sex is good for her / she enjoys it / orgasms hard and a lot), there's a simple way to deal with sexual refusal with any kind of live-in long-term female partner:

"Okay. Anyway, I'm going to head out for a bit."

You don't actually have to go hit on other women. Can just go sit in a café and work. And maybe check a few women's waists and hips out while you are there.

Gets most women back to the place where they are giving you all the sex you want again. It's 100% female competition... women want to shag the men other women want to shag. If she feels like other women don't want to shag you, she loses interest in shagging you. If she feels like other women are trying to shag you, she goes crazy trying to empty your balls into her so you're much less motivated to empty them into some other chick.

If she senses you are even beginning to reduce investment in the relationship, to reorient yourself to a fresh mate hunt, the threat of loss will motivate most women to open their pussies back up. Men want sex, women want commitment. As soon as sex goes off the table, your commitment starts to wane. She puts sex back on the table, your commitment rejuvenates.

Even though that advice is for long term live in relationships I think it would've been pretty effective in your situation (as it communicates this is first and foremost a sexual relationship AND your not going to get overly flustered and just go out and bang a new chick with ease). Then just leave and she'll likely hit you up soon asking you to come over and bang. In other words trust she's invested and you already mentioned have good sex game.

Also it seems like the key to this whole interaction started with the text of declining this weekend and then the call saying she's too tired to fuck (lol ya right). I'm not fully sure but its almost like a ploy to get investment and see if you'd cave or make sex happen (or get it elsewhere)...

Again you might've just been better off just being like "oh I see. Ya that's cool I'll probably just go out and leave you to your beauty sleep then My friend was trying to drag me out to XYZ club anyway and its been a while since I seen him". (saying essentially that your relationship is about sex and she can hit you back up when she's ready)... she might've just flipped and been like "well I guess you can come over for a little bit before I go to sleep"

Then again maybe she just wanted you to manhandle her and "know" what she wants more than she does.

Maybe someone more experienced with relationships could weigh in with better insight than me.

That being said I think since its an open casual relationship being totally cool to give her some space and "wonder what your up to" might've been the strongest frame here since its casual FWB type of thing, I bet she would've chased too and then you would've skipped the whole lame conversation.

Curious to see someone like Franco/Hector/Seppukku weigh in here.

Either way man it may have hurt the frame quite a bit but that's how we learn and sometimes these painful experiences really help sharpen your pimp game for the future (the skillset of pimping imo is more in retention than acquisition to begin with). Don't beat yourself up too much. Let her know that your indifferent to the continuation of things (but still want her) and give her some space to chase and you may not be dead in the water just yet.

Good luck. Hope you get it back on track. Let us know how it develops and keep it pimpin in the meantime

-Rob

 

[Hue]

@Thread,
Now that I've had some sleep, this is what I think:

To me, hanging out with a girl I like also means fundamentally open boundaries for enjoying each others' body and conversation (not to the extreme though lol like if we hang out I expect my finger to be in her ass at least 20% of the time), so long as we're both comfortable with it - and there isn't a logical reason she shouldn't be comfortable with foreplay. So, I suppose I'm thinking too much like a man. Even then though, I'd like to know what she was thinking so I can navigate it in the future AND give her what she really wants in a way that she'll accept and enjoy it.

I also think that because I framed us as more of fuck buddies when we first met (I essentially hit my current peak of seduction the month we met so I wanted this at the time), now that I want an open relationship it's harder. She wanted more commitment from me in the beginning, but eventually accepted my frame so she's also enjoying being single now. Now, I want an open relationship (with emotions involved) and I'm the man - so I don't know how to make this happen without giving her the reigns in the relationship.


Rain,

Thanks for the feedback man. I do think it was a mistake to try and talk about why she wouldn't let me do anything sexually with her logically. It came from a place where I'm thinking, "at least let me kiss you, for fucks sake". Her declination to that "because it will lead to sex" is just so confusing to me because her "reason" for not wanting sex is because she's too tired. Well, whether you're tired or not, your body will tell you if it wants sex or not, whenever that might happen. If we're making out and she's actually too tired then her body wouldn't get all hot and bothered and suddenly jump on my dick. But apparently she doesn't see it this way, because that's how she has it organized in her head. And she definitely wasn't too tired for making out since we eventually did.

Kissing = leads to sex = something I said I wouldn't do tonight.

Even though we were talking sexually the whole night...

From here maybe you have 2 options, I'm not sure if these are the best options as I'm not experienced with relationships much either but still here they are:

1. Txt chat normally and then say. "So was wondering, the other night.... were you really super tired or did you have something on your mind that you wanted to talk about?"
Maybe that risks a needy frame, or maybe you'd get your answer IF there is one. It could also risk cementing bad emotions since you got a little pissed maybe not the best option.

2. You could try and hangout again at some point and see if what happened was just a one off, or if happens again.
If you do this, how will you act if you don't hookup again? Be cool, but I think you'd want an answer.

1). If I were to do that it would come off as very needy. Not only that I can't imagine any response that would bring emotions back to where they were prior to us meeting last night. At that point it's got less to do with the answer behind female psychology (which, I'm not going to get from her.. which is why I shouldn't have asked in the first place) and more to do with changing her behaviors. Texting her AGAIN after there's already been some (dissatisfying) closure met on the topic would give her all the power and indicate to her that "Hue's over there worrying about our relationship, even though it's casual". Not very much utility.

2). We said we'd hang out this weekend once I was off work, either Friday or Saturday. We're both doing dry January so there's a high chance we actually do something. Our conversation actually ended with us setting up plans.

She wanted to do Saturday and I wanted to do Friday. I said "friday would be better" but was vague as to why and she started to pry but I didn't budge. Truth is I may be meeting a girl I met Monday night this saturday, but I'm not sure. Her body language told me that's what she suspected, but I could be wrong. She looked slightly concerned.. right before a final burst of good emotions right before I left. So I wonder if the frame may have at least ended in my favor.

If we don't hookup again I'm going to have to leave her be for a while until she understands that I'm serious about having sex when we see eachother.

I do like her quite a bit, which is part of why I want to fuck so bad (plus she's way hot and knows how great her ass is) on an intimacy level. And we're both sober for the month so the sex will be even better.

A little off topic. The first woman you mention, you still gush for her if you see her. So if she was single and you were single would you see her again or you have fully moved on?

I can count on both hands the amount of times I've seen her since we broke up.. 4-5 years ago. Everytime we see each other it's a highly emotional event. The only time that happened when we were both single we were making out all over each other at the bar. She's got a good boyfriend and I'm legitimately happy for her. If we were both single and in the same room we'd be having sex. But I gotta let her go, ya know?


Rob

Just off the cuff I think you realized that you might've chased a bit more than you should have here. Particularly since its an open relationship. Biggest error I see is conversing about it logically or discussing it in general.

Yea I think I came off as too needy. And if I was going to discuss it I should have done so in a way that had my emotions entirely removed from the conversation.

That's just it though, it's like I want it to be more relationshipy, without it being monogamous. And I think that's what she wants too. But I'm the guy so she's supposed to be the one to bring that type of shit up. Ultimately I want more from her even though I'm the one that set the frame to make it the open relationship as it stands now.

When we were talking about it I called what we had a relationship and she said "this isn't a relationship though" (side step critique) and I clarified to "well, whatever this is" and continued. Then later SHE said "haven't you ever had a girlfriend who you just meet up with and hang out with?" and she's the one calling herself "a girlfriend". Women, man. At that point she's just trying to out frame me in anyway possible.

As far as talking about it in general, I shouldn't think that I'm going to get an answer on female psychology from the girl I'm asking it about - that was silly.

"Okay. Anyway, I'm going to head out for a bit."

I see how this works if you're living with the partner, as Chase uses it here.. but that would have involved me leaving her mid-episode and likely have made her think that I ONLY came over for sex when I came over for yes, sex, but also to hang out with a girl that I like. She only gave me one, and was declining foreplay of any kind.

Personally, I see it as risky since I do in fact like her emotionally (but that could just be my inexperienced intuition).

Then just leave and she'll likely hit you up soon asking you to come over and bang. In other words trust she's invested and you already mentioned have good sex game.

Since I already made plans with her for the weekend, loosely, I'll just not text her and wait for her to hit me up. It's her turn to invest. If she doesn't (as a result of me caving or for any other reason) well hey that's too bad.

Also it seems like the key to this whole interaction started with the text of declining this weekend and then the call saying she's too tired to fuck (lol ya right). I'm not fully sure but its almost like a ploy to get investment and see if you'd cave or make sex happen (or get it elsewhere)...

That's what I'm saying man! Maybe it's just the stage of growth I'm in right now but distinguishing real from shit tests is maddening. I'm trying to think if there's a catch-all way to respond in a way that respects both possibilities, or if it's simply an internal frame of outcome independence I need to harness.

Again you might've just been better off just being like "oh I see. Ya that's cool I'll probably just go out and leave you to your beauty sleep then My friend was trying to drag me out to XYZ club anyway and its been a while since I seen him". (saying essentially that your relationship is about sex and she can hit you back up when she's ready)... she might've just flipped and been like "well I guess you can come over for a little bit before I go to sleep"

Thought about sending her, "ah damn. salsa lessons it is" because this leans into meeting girls without being too straightforwardly "I'm gonna go fuck some other bitches". The lessons I marked on my calendar were on monday thought and I'd already missed em.

Also trying very hard not to lie about anything and be a man of my word in 2019...

But yea this would have been a fine tactic were I to have focused more on being outcome independent and less on persistence.

Either way man it may have hurt the frame quite a bit but that's how we learn and sometimes these painful experiences really help sharpen your pimp game for the future (the skillset of pimping imo is more in retention than acquisition to begin with). Don't beat yourself up too much. Let her know that your indifferent to the continuation of things (but still want her) and give her some space to chase and you may not be dead in the water just yet.

And learn I will. It's always harder when there's emotions attached. If I didn't have any attached (and if she wasn't such a good fuck) my logical thought would just be "I'll find some girl this weekend".

And I think not hitting her up since we made loose plans will accomplish moving in the direction of indifference. We ended on a strong vibe when I left talking about meeting up and she saw my desire for her, but then radio silence makes her have to invest and reciprocate if she wants her desires for me satisfied too.


Thanks for the responds dudes. Still open to anyone who has something to comment!

Hue

 

[Mr.Rob]

Ultimately I want more from her even though I'm the one that set the frame to make it the open relationship as it stands now.

Lol man's desire to want the cake and eat it too. Ya you did set the expectation of FWB and now you're wanting more so it'll kind of be up to her if she still wants more I suppose.

Since I already made plans with her for the weekend, loosely, I'll just not text her and wait for her to hit me up. It's her turn to invest. If she doesn't (as a result of me caving or for any other reason) well hey that's too bad.

I think thats a good bet for you man. Hope it works out for ya

And I think not hitting her up since we made loose plans will accomplish moving in the direction of indifference. We ended on a strong vibe when I left talking about meeting up and she saw my desire for her, but then radio silence makes her have to invest and reciprocate if she wants her desires for me satisfied too.

Ya relationships are not my forte in experience (YET) but its something I'm really excited to put more focus on the retention side of things once I get my shit together and get back out in the game again (hopefully sooner than later). In the past I've definitely had problems of being real powerful and then being super soft thinking that was the time to loosen up a bit and lost more than a few girls aha painful man.

So hey here's to growing together in that regard.

 

[Rain]

@Thread,

A little off topic. The first woman you mention, you still gush for her if you see her. So if she was single and you were single would you see her again or you have fully moved on?

I can count on both hands the amount of times I've seen her since we broke up.. 4-5 years ago. Everytime we see each other it's a highly emotional event. The only time that happened when we were both single we were making out all over each other at the bar. She's got a good boyfriend and I'm legitimately happy for her. If we were both single and in the same room we'd be having sex. But I gotta let her go, ya know?

Are you a bit conflicted with that eg if you both single you'd be having sex, maybe not quite moved on? I do struggle with oneitis issues sometimes as well so just wondered if that was what is going on with the one you broke up with a few years ago

I also found some threads where Franco mentioned fwb can have a time limit
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11710&p=59052&hilit=commitment#p59052

Ideally, you want to know exactly what role a girl is going to play in your life very early on while minding the fact that no girl will play a permanent "non-committed" role in your life. If you don't give them commitment, they will eventually look for a man who will.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4956&p=23222&hilit=commitment#p23222

This is a natural thing for girls to do when they've been seeing a guy for a prolonged period of time in a sexual relationship without commitment (and by prolonged, I mean 3+ months). Essentially, you're trying to get what you want out of the relationship (sex) without giving her what she wants out of the relationship (a commitment).

Maybe if it's been a few months... and you really like her... could you commit to her if that's what the cause of this is?

 

[Ambiance]

I'm late to the party and some of the other guys already covered a lot of what I would have brought up, but here's a couple more things to think about:

You mentioned you see this girl about every 3 weeks? Not ideal for anything more than FBs, as you know. You want at or around 1 week intervals. 5-6 visits a month seems about right. Just as importantly, transitioning from 3 weeks to 1 week intervals absolutely cannot come across as chasing/more your idea than hers. The idea is that she wants to spend more time with you, and you gradually allow that to happen more and more, both without discouraging her but also without giving in too quickly. Ideally you've done this from the start of the relationship for the smoothest transition, otherwise you might have attainability problems.

Having "coupley/relationshipy" talks with this girl, who really is an FB if you are only seeing her about once a month, is a bad idea, until you are closer to 1 week intervals. At the point you were at, your relationship should have solely revolved around sex, and it hurts you to tolerate any behavior not related to her screwing your brains out. Don't give her the privilege of explaining yourself til she's earned it. As mentioned before, far better to leave like suggested in one of Chase's recent articles. It's a good one, definitely give it a look: https://www.girlschase.com/content/tactics-tuesdays-kick-her-out-or-leave-least-once

One more thing. This is just a read but I wouldn't be surprised if this girl is pretty experienced, even though she's a serial monogamist. Every guy is different, but personally I only go for Trusting/Naive (0-2 partners) or Curious/Inquisitive (3-7) girls, as Chase likes to brand them. This applies to open relationships too. Even then, the highest I've gone for is a girl who had 5 partners prior to me, and that was pushing it (each girl's age plays a big part in how many partners is too many). The fact she is a good amount older too sets an automatic "you're her boytoy" frame, which is great for a FB setup but its harder to be more than that, especially if she is experienced.

I know you like this girl and want more experience in a true relationship- I was in your same shoes not too long ago. But there are better options out there. Maybe you need the experience with this girl; I've dated girls who weren't relationship material and don't regret it, due to how much it taught me what relationship material actually is. Up to you to decide. Just don't try to shoehorn this girl into a relationship, at least until you guys are seeing each other more.

As far as damage control, mirror divided by three. SHE needs to be the one investing rn. Only interest, seduce, and sex her. Hold strong and she'll probably come around.

These are necessary steps! It is all so worth it on the other side

 

[Hue]

@Thread,

I talked to Hector about it during our coaching call yesterday and feel much more in control of my emotional situation. I have the option of going trying to navigate the maze that is her gameyness or I can cut it off entirely and go simple game. Depends what I want from her.

To be honest I don't think that I'll invest more emotionally from her.. for the time being. I saw her out last night and avoided her.


Rob,

Lol man's desire to want the cake and eat it too

You could say I have certain appetites (;

Ya relationships are not my forte in experience (YET) but its something I'm really excited to put more focus on the retention side of things once I get my shit together and get back out in the game again (hopefully sooner than later). In the past I've definitely had problems of being real powerful and then being super soft thinking that was the time to loosen up a bit and lost more than a few girls aha painful man.

So hey here's to growing together in that regard.

We're still growing man. There's still an ever-going journey ahead... cheers to that.


Rain,

This is a natural thing for girls to do when they've been seeing a guy for a prolonged period of time in a sexual relationship without commitment (and by prolonged, I mean 3+ months). Essentially, you're trying to get what you want out of the relationship (sex) without giving her what she wants out of the relationship (a commitment).

Maybe if it's been a few months... and you really like her... could you commit to her if that's what the cause of this is?

Yes that's right. But since the frame is set for an open relationship by BOTH of us, and it's her first time being single for a prolonged period in her life.. it's not so simple.

I have to play the dance of commitmentish stuff and treat her like she's my babe but not enough that she thinks we're exclusive. So not come off as like I don't care about her AND not come off that I'm that deeply committed to her. It's a tango that she's (and most really hot girls are) better at playing than I am (or most guys are).


Ambiance,

You mentioned you see this girl about every 3 weeks? Not ideal for anything more than FBs, as you know. You want at or around 1 week intervals. 5-6 visits a month seems about right. Just as importantly, transitioning from 3 weeks to 1 week intervals absolutely cannot come across as chasing/more your idea than hers. The idea is that she wants to spend more time with you, and you gradually allow that to happen more and more, both without discouraging her but also without giving in too quickly. Ideally you've done this from the start of the relationship for the smoothest transition, otherwise you might have attainability problems.

Yea I guess I just wanted it to be different so much that some of my behavior turned into chasing.

Having "coupley/relationshipy" talks with this girl, who really is an FB if you are only seeing her about once a month, is a bad idea, until you are closer to 1 week intervals. At the point you were at, your relationship should have solely revolved around sex, and it hurts you to tolerate any behavior not related to her screwing your brains out. Don't give her the privilege of explaining yourself til she's earned it. As mentioned before, far better to leave like suggested in one of Chase's recent articles. It's a good one, definitely give it a look: https://www.girlschase.com/content/tact ... least-once

Woulda shoulda coulda. Thanks for the article man it was a very helpful and realistic read.

This is just a read but I wouldn't be surprised if this girl is pretty experienced, even though she's a serial monogamist. Every guy is different, but personally I only go for Trusting/Naive (0-2 partners) or Curious/Inquisitive (3-7) girls, as Chase likes to brand them. This applies to open relationships too. Even then, the highest I've gone for is a girl who had 5 partners prior to me, and that was pushing it (each girl's age plays a big part in how many partners is too many). The fact she is a good amount older too sets an automatic "you're her boytoy" frame, which is great for a FB setup but its harder to be more than that, especially if she is experienced.

Actually, my read from hanging out with her has been that because she's a serial monogamist, she's very good at getting commitment from guys. This is why she plays so many games, and why she's so good at them. I didn't say this to Hector during our recent convo, but he effectively got the same read that she was using emotional manipulation on me.

It's been a recent realization that "the boytoy" frame is EXACTLY what I am for her and for Venice. Kinda disappointing at first, but hey.. I'll take it how it is even if it's hard. And they definitely like taking it when it's hard (;

I know you like this girl and want more experience in a true relationship- I was in your same shoes not too long ago. But there are better options out there. Maybe you need the experience with this girl; I've dated girls who weren't relationship material and don't regret it, due to how much it taught me what relationship material actually is. Up to you to decide. Just don't try to shoehorn this girl into a relationship, at least until you guys are seeing each other more.

As far as damage control, mirror divided by three. SHE needs to be the one investing rn. Only interest, seduce, and sex her. Hold strong and she'll probably come around.

These are necessary steps! It is all so worth it on the other side

It's not that I want "relationship experience". I want to be in a relationship that goes beyond sex. Do you see the difference with those two things?

And yea, there are. In all honesty I almost hope I don't hear back from a couple of job applications I have so I can just go full out on becoming a bartender and spend a lot of my other freetime just hitting max gains with game so I can leave for graduate school ready for anything that comes at me and the tools I need to satisfy my sexual appetite.


Thanks again for the responses guys! Feeling much better now.

Hue

 

[master77]

Are you experienced in seduction of girls

Hello,

I am in very beginning of seducing girls world.I am looking for experienced person/mentor/wingman to boost my real hands on learning.Is there anyone from the UK?Especially London?Or anywhere from the world?

I really want to learn and so eager to achieve.

Thank you.

 

[Tim25N]

try meditations in the morning (10-15 minutes), there are a lot of recommendations on the Internet